Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.
Leveling characters is cool, and some people legitimately enjoy that process (me!), and we agree it can be fun and would still like to find ways to reward people who enjoy leveling additional characters, but being required to do it just to try out some different skills is no longer acceptable to us. That's a level of masochism we just don't care to revisit. We thank the 90's for their contributions to game design, and the 'crush the player's soul' dungeon master mentality, but we're moving on. We have this crazy notion that games shouldn't punish you for trying to enjoy them.
Fact of the matter is though that the longevity in Diablo II was not made by leveling characters. You can get a character to 80 in a matter of hours. The longevity was from experimentation, customization, and the randomized item drops needed to perfect them. And that's amazingly even considering that a huge portion of the item hunt was completely ruined due to the mass proliferation of what should be insanely rare items. Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.
You can also add to this that in Diablo III killing monsters to see what they drop will not be made lucrative by explicitly predictable means, such as boss runs. Exploring entire areas, even playing from start to finish of each act, uncovering all the nooks and crannies is intended to be the way you'll be playing Inferno. You can pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like.
Also I like this post from the battle.net topic
pretend you cant swap skills. problem solved. Source
Oh damn, that just crushed everyone's arguments =D Game over suckas. I just found what I'll be copy / pasting every time shit like this pops up =P
i <3 Blizzard
Crushing with what? Telling that leveling is not fun (guess what, now it's not fun).
You need to create new character if you want different build? Did you made the game blizz, don't you remember there is respect? Oh ok, maybe you forgot because blitz north made the game, so I forgive you for that. No one is against respect, people are against free respect. Why? Whats the point of free respect, why just not give all skills to be used, and not to need to wait 30 sec to use them all.
This discussion is a perfect example of how Blizzards audience changed. Now you have lazy and very angry players screaming they don't want to gimp their character guess what? Learn how to develop them then, problem solved.
I'm also sick of the stupid "pretend it isn't there" arguement well it is but it just shows that this game is targeted at the lowest comon denominator. The skillsystem Blizzard is using is not build or progression based its just randomly picking skills without any sort of customization. I don't care what the idiot named Bashiok has to say. Funny thing is all the supporters of this dumbed down mechanics can only show big numbers by doing simple math, well do it with DII and you'll end up with an even bigger more unique number.
Anyway I'm sure some of the supporters are also the people who don't know what to do in an RPG, if they don't see ! over NPCs heads. Yeah I get it its an ARPG but if you call your name RPG at least offer some real customization instead of a limited FPS like system.
I'm sure this choice has also been made in order to guarantee a smooth console port. Blizzard fanbois are just an annoying bunch and one of the reason why their communities are usually the worst of the worst these days.
Blizzard really is trying to take the apple model to heart:
Make your product as retardedly simple as you can so any asshole can use it. You'll sell more by the keeping up with the jones word of mouth method.
And while doing that make it so that your product sucks completely.
Blizzard really is trying to take the apple model to heart:
Make your product as retardedly simple as you can so any asshole can use it. You'll sell more by the keeping up with the jones word of mouth method.
Requiring a process to remake a character because someone wants to do something differently has nothing to do with being smart, adaptive, or creative. It's a limitation that makes no sense. So what if a lot of people can play the game, true "smart" players will be the one's farming inferno, not swapping 50 times in normal mode. Your idiot theory states that everyone will 100% pass inferno because the system is easy to use....
EDIT: Sorry asshole theory thought you meant idiot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Odin. You lost bud. The vast majority of players don't care / love the system. I also trust that 'idiot' Bashiok way more than I'd trust someone raging on some forums =)
Nope I didn#t lose cause no gambling. Using this majority/minority crap is so World of Warcraft, we both can never be sure what the majority really thinks. Same will agree with my stance others with yours so its impossible.
Been playing games for over 20 years, all blizzard games, and RPG's are actually my favourite. The Diablo series has never been an RPG and ARPG is just a RPG lore theme with smash a button. Adaptation is more than just you can only pick 6 moves from the start of the game, but hey I guess we all have different opinions on that too
Well lets call it action game then doesn't change the fact, that its not an FPS so at least some sort of character progression despite leveling should be their, Diablo 2 had it right personally speaking. Point of view this game is coming out in 2012 and yet it offers less options, more linearic gameplay, safe for dungeons no randomized worlds, gay looking and very dated graphics I mean after all Blizzard should have the stuff and money to create an outstanding Diablo II successor and not a watered down Diablo version.
Look at the skillsystem Path of Excile will be offering you are telling me a company like Blizzard can't come up with something like that, although they are having so much money and employees? Since Activision joined they've only made bad press be it their p2w shop in World of Warcraft, Real ID, Battle.net requirement and now the endless DIII delays its obvious, they've lost their passion for gamers now they are working for shareholders and investors.
People can trust Bashiok all they want, for me he is the most arrogant annoying CM Blizzard ever had, like I said years ago guys like him would have been banned on their forums for trolling/insulting others constantly and now this guy is CM unbelievable.
The thing people don't realize about Bashiok is that he is PAID to spin words. His job is to be a propoganda / PR machine.
His job is to present one side of an argument (and ONLY one side) and make people blindly agree.
Well lets call it action game then doesn't change the fact, that its not an FPS so at least some sort of character progression despite leveling should be their, Diablo 2 had it right personally speaking. Point of view this game is coming out in 2012 and yet it offers less options, more linearic gameplay, safe for dungeons no randomized worlds, gay looking and very dated graphics I mean after all Blizzard should have the stuff and money to create an outstanding Diablo II successor and not a watered down Diablo version.
Look at the skillsystem Path of Excile will be offering you are telling me a company like Blizzard can't come up with something like that, although they are having so much money and employees? Since Activision joined they've only made bad press be it their p2w shop in World of Warcraft, Real ID, Battle.net requirement and now the endless DIII delays its obvious, they've lost their passion for gamers now they are working for shareholders and investors.
People can trust Bashiok all they want, for me he is the most arrogant annoying CM Blizzard ever had, like I said years ago guys like him would have been banned on their forums for trolling/insulting others constantly and now this guy is CM unbelievable.
You have valid points; I think there are definitely some issues with the product they are coming out with. I think of FF13 when you talk about linear progression but that’s off topic. I hate activation and they have obviously shown their influence on part of Blizzard's aura over the last few years, but it's out of my control. I still think Blizzard can put out good games despite the merge and well if they don't I'll simply stop buying their products until then, I can't wait to play this game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I really fail to see how you guys are arguing saying something is final when we have 0 idea of how runes will work, Which will be more than 90% of your playtime. What if they make runes destroy upon skill swap. There goes your whole theory. It adds permanence tot he build because you won't wanna lose that rune, and when you get to nightmare and hell and inferno when you have level 7 or 5 rank runes, and you wanna switch you're gonna be pissed that you have to find those rare runes again. If that's how it is. Which I think the general population of us would like it to be this way, then everything everyone is saying here is MOOT absolutely for naught and worthless. So why are we even arguing about something we know half of nothing about. I agree with debating it, but this has turned into a flame war on who's a child who's a kool aid drinker, and whose stupid. Calm down all of you. It is just a game nothing more.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
This discussion is a perfect example of how Blizzards audience changed. Now you have lazy and very angry players screaming they don't want to gimp their character guess what? Learn how to develop them then, problem solved.
I'm also sick of the stupid "pretend it isn't there" arguement well it is but it just shows that this game is targeted at the lowest comon denominator. The skillsystem Blizzard is using is not build or progression based its just randomly picking skills without any sort of customization. I don't care what the idiot named Bashiok has to say. Funny thing is all the supporters of this dumbed down mechanics can only show big numbers by doing simple math, well do it with DII and you'll end up with an even bigger more unique number.
Anyway I'm sure some of the supporters are also the people who don't know what to do in an RPG, if they don't see ! over NPCs heads. Yeah I get it its an ARPG but if you call your name RPG at least offer some real customization instead of a limited FPS like system.
I'm sure this choice has also been made in order to guarantee a smooth console port. Blizzard fanbois are just an annoying bunch and one of the reason why their communities are usually the worst of the worst these days.
Blizzard really is trying to take the apple model to heart:
Make your product as retardedly simple as you can so any asshole can use it. You'll sell more by the keeping up with the jones word of mouth method.
And while doing that make it so that your product sucks completely.
Wanna be smart elite, switch to play chess or go or whatever. Diablo is hack & slash. There are skills in it as many ppl want to kill in different ways. This more or less introduced rpg element but it is still hack & slash. When you choose your precious skills then that's it. What do you do then poor you. You probably start new character because you can't build your character anymore. Or do you go to do pvp and realize that even after being so smart there is somebody smarter there and still kicked your ass hard. What do you do then, oh ofc you start new character hoping for it to be better, but then you are still kicked, and then you do character which other ppl says is the best and then you are again kicked because being smart won't let you win with people with better motoric skills and then you drop the game. What's good from you being so clever when your ass will be kicked anyway! Btw, what's good from having skills permanent if you can level new character like blizzard said in a few hours. Pointless exercise... Man I'm pissed off today
I really fail to see how you guys are arguing saying something is final when we have 0 idea of how runes will work, Which will be more than 90% of your playtime. What if they make runes destroy upon skill swap. There goes your whole theory. It adds permanence tot he build because you won't wanna lose that rune, and when you get to nightmare and hell and inferno when you have level 7 or 5 rank runes, and you wanna switch you're gonna be pissed that you have to find those rare runes again. If that's how it is. Which I think the general population of us would like it to be this way, then everything everyone is saying here is MOOT absolutely for naught and worthless. So why are we even arguing about something we know half of nothing about. I agree with debating it, but this has turned into a flame war on who's a child who's a kool aid drinker, and whose stupid. Calm down all of you. It is just a game nothing more.
You still have the choice of carrying the equivalent of a level 6 bash for the rest of your life, us who like experimentation, but don't enjoy the risk of destroying a character can now switch the skill. If those people want they can still carry that level 6 bash for the rest of that barb's life. It objectively it is 100% a fact that this system allows that second group you speak exactly the freedom they wish for. It allows the first group the same options they previously has by keeping the skills they originally choose. What it does not allow the first group who want to be stuck with whatever build they choose to gain the benefit of choosing a better build than the second group because the second group can change their skills. This new skill system doesn't affect the individual if you would like to punish yourself to a single unchangable build please do so, the rest of us will experiment and figure out what build we like.
People who are against easy and unlimited skill swapping don't want to punish themselves, they want a game where their decisions actually matter and good choices are rewarded. Under the current system you can pretty much have whatever you think are the 6 best skills and 3 best passives available for any given situation, but imagine if you actually had to consider if taking an AoE skill for faster trash killing or a stronger single-target skill for bosses would make your build more powerful? What if you had to decide if you wanted to pickup some defensive skills to make bosses easier (or even doable) at the cost of some killing speed on normal monsters? These were the sort of decisions that made the D2 skills system interesting (do you make a single-element sorc and rely on your merc or a party to kill immunes or do you make a tri-elemental sorc that can take anything out on her own, but kills more slowly?). Ultimately, its limitations that force a player to make meaningful decisions that make games interesting.
With that said, the addition of respecs in D2 was a great addition to the game. There's no reason to punish somebody for mis-clicking or even wanting to try a different playstyle. I like the idea of being able to try out new skills as you get them in D3, but by level 30 you have access to all the skills you ever will and should be able to start making some informed decisions at that point. Let's be generous and give players the opportunity to continue to experiment with their full set of choices through Nightmare, but then on Hell and Inferno make players commit to a build at least for the time they are in a single game. Perhaps something like allowing free skill swaps for the first 5 minutes after a player joins a game, but after that no more swapping is allowed until the next game. This would still be a far more liberal system than what D2 has, allowing people plenty of room to experiment, but would make those skill decisions meaningful enough to make them more interesting than they currently are.
Sorry m8. I want to get to 60 and try all the nice builds and see how they work with my own skills, what I like and not and not to have to be unhappy because I'm not perfect and now I have to pay for it building new character. Like many ppl say, want to stick to skills, go ahead and stop pulling other people with you. Lets be super hardcore and say, that you can only have one character, one set of skills chosen before you start playing before you even know how well they work in inferno difficulty and if you want to create new character you have to buy game again. Do you like it? You don't, well why not? You say I can do it for myself without asking you to do the same. Well you can do what you want with current D3 system, too. Go ahead! What you are talking is to punish others because you like to start the game multiple times or are more clever than us and think that you won't make mistakes. I personally think that you are one of the ppl who won't get through inferno or you will do it by monkey copying skills other ppl on the net think are the best. Otherwise you have slim to none chances to get through inferno as it will force you to change skills many times before you find the ones which actually work.
Chippy I am completely on board with a 5 minutes window to respec skills then getting them locked for the rest of the game. I already believe a 30 second cooldown is not enough of a penalty. Should be a 5 minutes cooldown time atleast.
I really fail to see how you guys are arguing saying something is final when we have 0 idea of how runes will work, Which will be more than 90% of your playtime. What if they make runes destroy upon skill swap. There goes your whole theory. It adds permanence tot he build because you won't wanna lose that rune, and when you get to nightmare and hell and inferno when you have level 7 or 5 rank runes, and you wanna switch you're gonna be pissed that you have to find those rare runes again. If that's how it is. Which I think the general population of us would like it to be this way, then everything everyone is saying here is MOOT absolutely for naught and worthless. So why are we even arguing about something we know half of nothing about. I agree with debating it, but this has turned into a flame war on who's a child who's a kool aid drinker, and whose stupid. Calm down all of you. It is just a game nothing more.
Unibunny will you be my delayed valentine?
Absolutely! lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
This discussion is a perfect example of how Blizzards audience changed. Now you have lazy and very angry players screaming they don't want to gimp their character guess what? Learn how to develop them then, problem solved.
I'm also sick of the stupid "pretend it isn't there" arguement well it is but it just shows that this game is targeted at the lowest comon denominator. The skillsystem Blizzard is using is not build or progression based its just randomly picking skills without any sort of customization. I don't care what the idiot named Bashiok has to say. Funny thing is all the supporters of this dumbed down mechanics can only show big numbers by doing simple math, well do it with DII and you'll end up with an even bigger more unique number.
Anyway I'm sure some of the supporters are also the people who don't know what to do in an RPG, if they don't see ! over NPCs heads. Yeah I get it its an ARPG but if you call your name RPG at least offer some real customization instead of a limited FPS like system.
I'm sure this choice has also been made in order to guarantee a smooth console port. Blizzard fanbois are just an annoying bunch and one of the reason why their communities are usually the worst of the worst these days.
Blizzard really is trying to take the apple model to heart:
Make your product as retardedly simple as you can so any asshole can use it. You'll sell more by the keeping up with the jones word of mouth method.
And while doing that make it so that your product sucks completely.
I really fail to see how you guys are arguing saying something is final when we have 0 idea of how runes will work, Which will be more than 90% of your playtime. What if they make runes destroy upon skill swap. There goes your whole theory. It adds permanence tot he build because you won't wanna lose that rune, and when you get to nightmare and hell and inferno when you have level 7 or 5 rank runes, and you wanna switch you're gonna be pissed that you have to find those rare runes again. If that's how it is. Which I think the general population of us would like it to be this way, then everything everyone is saying here is MOOT absolutely for naught and worthless. So why are we even arguing about something we know half of nothing about. I agree with debating it, but this has turned into a flame war on who's a child who's a kool aid drinker, and whose stupid. Calm down all of you. It is just a game nothing more.
Runes are attached to skills they were put to, as far as I know. It should be good enough. You are already slightly punish. But you can see that you can finish Inferno with 4th level runes so you can have a lot of time to find what skills you like the best for your inferno character and then put the best 7th level runes in skills you want to stick too. You won't find those high lvl runes easily, though you should find 4th lvl runes quite easily so you can experiment with skills in inferno. This is good problem solver, why to look for others.
Chippy I am completely on board with a 5 minutes window to respec skills then getting them locked for the rest of the game. I already believe a 30 second cooldown is not enough of a penalty. Should be a 5 minutes cooldown time atleast.
I'd just walk away and make a sandwich or go to the bathroom, it doesn't really deter anyone, and it’s just a waste of time. I like the points that chippy was brought up as well but the conclusion that D2 empowered important of choice isn't valid IMO. You get one main move that is spammed 90% of the time, an alternative move for immunities 5% time, and support spells such as teleport. How does that make any choice feel that important? Every build was the same just because you choose Whirlwind instead of frenzy doesn’t change the core concept of the choice.
EDIT: Doomscream has been lurking for a while I'm surprised he hasn't stepped in, I hope this is on topic enough
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
As for the whole D2/D3 build thing: I fully accept that some people like to play with nails & wood, while others prefer legos. To each his own. I like the lego approach more, because it makes trying out different skill combinations super easy.
This is just brilliant. Explains exactly what I think about this argument as well.
A build is a build. Just because you can swap specs in WoW on the fly, doesn't make one build not a build anymore.
This with runes will solve the problem, but I think runes can be sold on RMHA, right? If yes, then runes can't be destroyed if you paid for them, and there will be some problems becouse of laws in different countries.
i used to hate the swtich anytime system but now i understand how they want us to experiment with skills until we find the 6 skills we like... but i am still afraid some people will abuse the system so i will keep asking for a cast time like TP (ex: 5sec) allowing the skill to be used right away but with a longer cooldown before being able to switch AGAIN (ex: 3-5min) other than that the system is good and IMO offers more uniqueness than D2 with D3 having more viable builds.
BTW googling cookie cutter builds like in D2 isn't that hardcore, at least in D3 they are helping you to use your brain to find the skills that suit your play style.
I think balancing a skill system is about understanding "challenging" vs. "tedious". In early posts, people mentioned that in Diablo 2, you had to decide how to use your points and make some sacrifices. More defensive skills, or more offensive skills. Multi-elemental to exploit weaknesses, or maximizing the damage of one element. Etc. Its distinguishing, requires thought, and adds challenges. That's all positive.
On the down side, if you picked something you didn't like, there was no solution except starting over. That aspect doesn't add challenge. It just creates a time sink, makes things monotinous and punishes experimentation (as others have said). It makes a situation where the safest thing to do is look up a widely accepted build online to keep from making a mistake, and use the same thing everyone else is playing.
Diablo 3 seems to be trying to keep the challenging elements while removing the parts that just made skill selection tedious. You still have to pick a limited selection of skills imediately available, but you have the freedom to try other things, experiment and find the combination of skills that works for you.
At first I thought that removing skill points seemed very limiting. But runes ar better. Having one to five points in a skill in D2 changed nothing but nombers. Runes completely change the effect of the skill.
For a fast paced, hack and slash style game, the D3 system looks workable.
DISCLAIMER: if your experiencing confusion, nausea, appear to be seeing trolling or you disagree dont be alarmed, you are just not smart enough to comprehend real customization and you still think the illusion of customization is a good thing.
This x 1000. I am so sick of these people wanting to gut the game so they can pretend they are a special lil snowflake.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Crushing with what? Telling that leveling is not fun (guess what, now it's not fun).
You need to create new character if you want different build? Did you made the game blizz, don't you remember there is respect? Oh ok, maybe you forgot because blitz north made the game, so I forgive you for that. No one is against respect, people are against free respect. Why? Whats the point of free respect, why just not give all skills to be used, and not to need to wait 30 sec to use them all.
Blizzard really is trying to take the apple model to heart:
Make your product as retardedly simple as you can so any asshole can use it. You'll sell more by the keeping up with the jones word of mouth method.
And while doing that make it so that your product sucks completely.
PLEASE tell me your one of those kids who posts "FUUUUU blizz im no longer buying diablo".
Requiring a process to remake a character because someone wants to do something differently has nothing to do with being smart, adaptive, or creative. It's a limitation that makes no sense. So what if a lot of people can play the game, true "smart" players will be the one's farming inferno, not swapping 50 times in normal mode. Your idiot theory states that everyone will 100% pass inferno because the system is easy to use....
EDIT: Sorry asshole theory thought you meant idiot.
You keep calling me a kid.... and i keep telling you i'm more than likely older than you are ffs...
The thing people don't realize about Bashiok is that he is PAID to spin words. His job is to be a propoganda / PR machine.
His job is to present one side of an argument (and ONLY one side) and make people blindly agree.
You have valid points; I think there are definitely some issues with the product they are coming out with. I think of FF13 when you talk about linear progression but that’s off topic. I hate activation and they have obviously shown their influence on part of Blizzard's aura over the last few years, but it's out of my control. I still think Blizzard can put out good games despite the merge and well if they don't I'll simply stop buying their products until then, I can't wait to play this game.
Wanna be smart elite, switch to play chess or go or whatever. Diablo is hack & slash. There are skills in it as many ppl want to kill in different ways. This more or less introduced rpg element but it is still hack & slash. When you choose your precious skills then that's it. What do you do then poor you. You probably start new character because you can't build your character anymore. Or do you go to do pvp and realize that even after being so smart there is somebody smarter there and still kicked your ass hard. What do you do then, oh ofc you start new character hoping for it to be better, but then you are still kicked, and then you do character which other ppl says is the best and then you are again kicked because being smart won't let you win with people with better motoric skills and then you drop the game. What's good from you being so clever when your ass will be kicked anyway! Btw, what's good from having skills permanent if you can level new character like blizzard said in a few hours. Pointless exercise... Man I'm pissed off today
Unibunny will you be my delayed valentine?
Someone is angry
Runes are attached to skills they were put to, as far as I know. It should be good enough. You are already slightly punish. But you can see that you can finish Inferno with 4th level runes so you can have a lot of time to find what skills you like the best for your inferno character and then put the best 7th level runes in skills you want to stick too. You won't find those high lvl runes easily, though you should find 4th lvl runes quite easily so you can experiment with skills in inferno. This is good problem solver, why to look for others.
I'd just walk away and make a sandwich or go to the bathroom, it doesn't really deter anyone, and it’s just a waste of time. I like the points that chippy was brought up as well but the conclusion that D2 empowered important of choice isn't valid IMO. You get one main move that is spammed 90% of the time, an alternative move for immunities 5% time, and support spells such as teleport. How does that make any choice feel that important? Every build was the same just because you choose Whirlwind instead of frenzy doesn’t change the core concept of the choice.
EDIT: Doomscream has been lurking for a while I'm surprised he hasn't stepped in, I hope this is on topic enough
This is just brilliant. Explains exactly what I think about this argument as well.
A build is a build. Just because you can swap specs in WoW on the fly, doesn't make one build not a build anymore.
BTW googling cookie cutter builds like in D2 isn't that hardcore, at least in D3 they are helping you to use your brain to find the skills that suit your play style.
On the down side, if you picked something you didn't like, there was no solution except starting over. That aspect doesn't add challenge. It just creates a time sink, makes things monotinous and punishes experimentation (as others have said). It makes a situation where the safest thing to do is look up a widely accepted build online to keep from making a mistake, and use the same thing everyone else is playing.
Diablo 3 seems to be trying to keep the challenging elements while removing the parts that just made skill selection tedious. You still have to pick a limited selection of skills imediately available, but you have the freedom to try other things, experiment and find the combination of skills that works for you.
At first I thought that removing skill points seemed very limiting. But runes ar better. Having one to five points in a skill in D2 changed nothing but nombers. Runes completely change the effect of the skill.
For a fast paced, hack and slash style game, the D3 system looks workable.
This x 1000. I am so sick of these people wanting to gut the game so they can pretend they are a special lil snowflake.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!