It just struck me that when people criticize the deeply flawed character system in DIablo 3 and are met with the standard retort of how many possible "builds" there are and how they do not want to play the same character again, they are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT.
There is a huge difference between a character that is unique and a character that can switch to a huge number of builds.
DIablo II had dozens and dozens of character archetypes within each character class. If you replayed an Amazon and went for Bowazon, it was a very different experence form a Furyzon or Jabazon. Playing the different archetype was like playing a completely different class. The experience was completely different and it was fun to play different characters through many of which were from the same class.
So Diablo II had a much much larger set of classes than D3 does.
D3 gets away with this entirely. in favor of a bunch of possible builds. But at the end all Demon Hunters are pretty much exactly alike and the game experience is the same. No one will want to play the same character twice.
First of all, please post in the 4 million already existing threads on this subject. Second of all, please read below as it was my answer to the very same concern on another thread;
1. People are arguing that their wizard won't feel as unique as the other peoples wizards. IF this happens, this is the players fault. There is nothing Blizzard can do to stop this. If Blizzard makes the first set of skills you pick set in stone, then people will look up the top most optimal build and always use that (see D2). This will happen even if Blizzard implements fees for switching specs, because no one wants to waste time and gold. Again, they will google the best spec and be even more like everyone else (see WoW / D2).
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
Way to not even read his post.. He isn't talking about how different two different players may be spec-wise. He's saying that the actually difference between any two given specs of a class play-wise is almost the same. Your playstyle even after changing spec will likely be very similar to what it was before. Unlike in Diablo 2, where you had a trap spec assassin vs a ghost assassin (Whirlwind Sin). The difference in HOW you play is completely different.
While I can somewhat agree, I still feel that there are some diversities even within classes to change playstyle. There aren't as many as I would like to see though.
Way to not even read his post.. He isn't talking about how different two different players may be spec-wise. He's saying that the actually difference between any two given specs of a class play-wise is almost the same. Your playstyle even after changing spec will likely be very similar to what it was before. Unlike in Diablo 2, where you had a trap spec assassin vs a ghost assassin (Whirlwind Sin). The difference in HOW you play is completely different.
While I can somewhat agree, I still feel that there are some diversities even within classes to change playstyle. There aren't as many as I would like to see though.
I would argue take a look at a melee wizard VS a defensive up close AOE wizard VS a long range CC nuke wizard... the list goes on. We really aren't in a position to criticize something like this, since none of us have played release with all ~120 skills unlocked.
@snake42
he is saying that in D3 everytime he makes a level 1-60 run he will use all the skills instead of using a skill set in the first run and then use a different skill set in the second run.
my answer is that nothing is stopping you from playing the game the way you want, just create your own skill sets and try to follow them in each run (actually without skill trees you can make even more skill sets so even more unique runs)
i will play it with all the skills until i beat inferno once and then when i get bored i will switch my build and do an inferno run with it and so on.
Way to not even read his post.. He isn't talking about how different two different players may be spec-wise. He's saying that the actually difference between any two given specs of a class play-wise is almost the same. Your playstyle even after changing spec will likely be very similar to what it was before. Unlike in Diablo 2, where you had a trap spec assassin vs a ghost assassin (Whirlwind Sin). The difference in HOW you play is completely different.
While I can somewhat agree, I still feel that there are some diversities even within classes to change playstyle. There aren't as many as I would like to see though.
I would argue take a look at a melee wizard VS a defensive up close AOE wizard VS a long range CC nuke wizard... the list goes on. We really aren't in a position to criticize something like this, since none of us have played release with all ~120 skills unlocked.
Snaks... what the guy is saying that the 75% of ruins don't change how you play the skill.. it gives it a cosmetic makeover and a damage type change. And quite honestly you having all the same skills as me but using a different ruin on a skill is NOT a different build. At most i'd call it a flavor difference.
Way to not even read his post.. He isn't talking about how different two different players may be spec-wise. He's saying that the actually difference between any two given specs of a class play-wise is almost the same. Your playstyle even after changing spec will likely be very similar to what it was before. Unlike in Diablo 2, where you had a trap spec assassin vs a ghost assassin (Whirlwind Sin). The difference in HOW you play is completely different.
While I can somewhat agree, I still feel that there are some diversities even within classes to change playstyle. There aren't as many as I would like to see though.
I would argue take a look at a melee wizard VS a defensive up close AOE wizard VS a long range CC nuke wizard... the list goes on. We really aren't in a position to criticize something like this, since none of us have played release with all ~120 skills unlocked.
Snaks... what the guy is saying that the 75% of ruins don't change how you play the skill.. it gives it a cosmetic makeover and a damage type change. And quite honestly you having all the same skills as me but using a different ruin on a skill is NOT a different build. At most i'd call it a flavor difference.
Where are you getting your numbers? In almost every skill, 4 out of the 5 runes completely change it; whether it suddenly becomes a great resource generator, or it becomes an electric aoe, or it becomes a slow, ect ect. The runes DO change the skills, go look at the skill calculator.
Where are you getting your numbers? In almost every skill, 4 out of the 5 runes completely change it; whether it suddenly becomes a great resource generator, or it becomes an electric aoe, or it becomes a slow, ect ect. The runes DO change the skills, go look at the skill calculator.
OMG A ice damage meteor IS COMPLETELY different... its not like i'm still gonna hafta target it like a regular meteor.... oh wait i do!!!
OMG a snake that has a change to stun is targetted completely different from poison dart... oh wait it isn't?
etc....
If i like chocolate ice cream... and you like vanilla... does that little flavor change mean we are eating completely different meals?
Where are you getting your numbers? In almost every skill, 4 out of the 5 runes completely change it; whether it suddenly becomes a great resource generator, or it becomes an electric aoe, or it becomes a slow, ect ect. The runes DO change the skills, go look at the skill calculator.
OMG A ice damage meteor IS COMPLETELY different... its not like i'm still gonna hafta target it like a regular meteor.... oh wait i do!!!
OMG a snake that has a change to stun is targetted completely different from poison dart... oh wait it isn't?
etc....
If i like chocolate ice cream... and you like vanilla... does that little flavor change mean we are eating completely different meals?
Ice damage meteor means I'll be using it at the start of the fight, to slow my enemies while I hit them with something else. If it's a straight fire damage, i'll be slowing / grouping the mobs first and then hitting them with the big finisher. Sounds different to me.
If my poison dart has a chance to stun, i'll probably only use that on bigger mobs while I use more of an aoe on the others. If my dart does DoT damage, i'll be trying to hit every mob quickly to stack that dot. Again, sounds different to me.
My point being runes will defiantly change the way you play, such as your rotation, and what you use in different situations.
Snaks... what the guy is saying that the 75% of ruins don't change how you play the skill.. it gives it a cosmetic makeover and a damage type change. And quite honestly you having all the same skills as me but using a different ruin on a skill is NOT a different build. At most i'd call it a flavor difference.
Sleet storm rune turns ray of frost into a swirling storm around you, that's pretty different.
Arcane orbit rune turns Arcane Orb into four swirling balls of energy that explode when enemies get too close.
Arcane mines rune turns Arcane Torrent into mines that you can kite enemies over.
Zombie Bears rune turns Zombie Charger into three zombie bears.
Phantasm rune turns Spirit Barrage into a spectre that will hit enemies for a short time.
There are plenty more but the point is they all can drastically change how you play your character with that skill.
Hi All,
I believe that we will see real build diversity only if all skills we can choose are rally great visually and have great audio effects. Currently many people are talking about how awasome barbs feel when they use they skills even those basic ones. With great feel to all skills people will like to stick to some they really like (as far they are useful too) even if they are not superb optimal for they character type but just because they like the look and feel of them. So for example if I have to choose between simply fireball like in D2 but they make it look really nice, fast and wizard is throwing it with great strength and frequency and it make superb sound when it is thrown and my second choice is powerful, scary blood boiling, fiery, making a big whole in the ground but slow meteor but both skills are viable in killing same monsters just that they require different way of doing so (meteor requires timing, while fireball fast shooting and avoidance) I would definitely choose fireball as I like that style of fighting when you have to avoid your enemy and shoot him in fast intervals. Some other person may rather prefer precision and time his meteor to do big damage in one huge blow. But as far as developers don't make meteor look more awesome than fireball because it is a higher level skill and both are viable in killing same monsters people will be using both, depending of they personal skill-feel preference. But if fireball looks puny and is a skill which should be used only on simple mobs and cannot be used with bosses everybody will pick up meteor as it is more viable. Changing of skills in playtime may be good thing blizzard is adding, as we could choose skill which is perfect for each mob when we play but I would rather like to play with skills I like from "feel" point of view and still be able to kill mobs as well but just differently (without going to some menu and swap skills every time I know there is some other type of mob around the corner). I hope you get my drift as I can't explain it better
What is this I don't even... D2 had dozens of character archetypes? Man D2 had like few viable builds for every class and no more. D3 has tons of viable builds and there are lot of very different builds.
I think you are confusing D3 with something else..
D3 has 1 build per class so far. Let's say u made a Fireball+FO sorc in D2. That's one build. And u bind teleport to RMB (i don't even count frozen armor, energy shield, etc), and FO/Fireball to LMB. And u swich between them. Do u have 2 builds now? No, it's still one. That's the problem, and the only hope left is for the right rune system.
In D3 you select your 6 skills and you have your build, so what if you can change those skills, you can still use only 6 at a time. D2 now has skill respec (3 times AFAIR), so according to you D2 has 3 builds per class.
Forget it... U lack logic to be interesting to argue with.
what exactly are you trying to say? are you saying D3 has not enough individuality and you are making an eexample for that with D2? i dont get it
Yep, D3 characters don't have enough individuality. I bring D2 to show that what u call "builds" in D3 aren't builds at all, they are like switching between skills in one build, and that's sad.
PS but anyway there's no point to argue here atm before they officially reveal the rune system. The fact that they didn't like previous version gives me hope that they feel the same.
well i didnt like the "on the fly" system they began with but i think the 30sec cooldown thing is enough too keep players from switching skills constantly. and i do like the optiont to experiment freely with new builds it keeps things fresh. uuh i hate what im goint to say next. but when i played wow i got bored with my builds pretty fast even in D2 i constanty made new characters because i wanted to play something different thats why i like the D3 system if i get bored with a build i can just change my build and try something new i dont see how anybody could have an issue with that.
Yeah, i can understand that. Imho the thing is in different gamestyles: RPG vs Arcade. In the first one u have more "bond" with your character, u develop it through levels, make critical decisions, make it somewhat unique. In the second one there's no uniqueness, no development: all players just get the same character (there may be few basic types) and compete due to their "action skills" (can't get the exact right word). Both types of games are enjoyable, some like first more, some second. And there can bo good combinations of both. And the problem for me (and other RPG fans) that Diablo is becoming more arcade-like, and there less left of RPG... I think because arcade-fans is majority, or new developpers are ones of them. And no, i don't think arcade-fans are worse in any way... But games overall are becoming more mainstream, getting rid of any hardcore in them. And Diablo3 is the one for me i was waiting for so long, hoping it will still have that good feeling like whole franchise.
Thou shalt not critisize anything about diablo 3...isnt that 1 of the 10 commandments? otherwise thou shalt incur the wrath of the legions of blizzard fan bois that haunt these halls...you have been warned.
/facepalm
If in a discussion you are with Blizzard you are a fanboy. If you are against Blizzard, you're a troll/hater/rager etc.
There's just no getting away from the stereotype bullshit people come up with to invalidate other peoples opinion.
"Lulz my opinion/point of view is the right one so he has to be a fanboy/troll in order to not see this"
Also, what did you expect from a Diablo fan forum? People who didn't like Blizzard/Diablo? You might be in the wrong corner of the internet.
well i never thought of Diablo as an RPG it never really felt like that to me tbh. it was always more focused on the action part if i wanted to play a rpg i played some baldurs gate or something. i think in an rpg you need a character to identify with and you never had this in diablo and lets be honest the story came also a bit short. the only thing RPGish they had were stat and skill points. there was no journey and no world to explore it was just mindless demon slaying and we love it for that.
For me it was that good combination of RPG and Arcade that differs the game from the others. Now there's a huge chance it will become pure arcade T_T
A lot of you forget how horrible actually D2's leveling stat and skill system was. Yes, skills/stats were permanent but that made playing from start to finish and having good character impossible. If you are low level and put enough strength into all stats and put points into skills you like you are actually killing your build. Because later on, you gonna have good items which add stats, so you overdone your stats, and you gonna use best skills anyways, and all skills you put in lower levels are wasted.
In D2 you can build good high level character, but you can never play with him until that high level of you will completely broke him.
In D3 you play as you wish and you have fun.
I dunno, u guys underestimate not perfect builds in D2. With high-end gear almost every build became viable and fun to play... I've tried tones of different characters and i'll be completely honest if say there was only one character broken - my first one in LOD, and still i had a great time playing it untill Hell, and don't regret the time spent on it. In the end - it was same old mechanics - more u play, more u learn about the game, and better at it become.
But still, almost noone cares about stats gone, i have no idea why u keep bringing it up when talking about customization. Yes, they are obsolete. As the old skill-trees compared to new system. The only thing we want is to be there a more serious decision to make at some point. For example, like i said in another topic, making runes bound to skill and removed if skill's swapped. That will let you a lot of time to experiment with builds (due to chip low-mid lvl runes) without making new character. It will let u to completely change skills still at any time. But it will make some benefit to setting with one skill-set at some point when you get high level runes, therefore will make the feel of putting some effort in your build, make it more special, make it a "build" instead of just atm chosen skills.
It just struck me that when people criticize the deeply flawed character system in DIablo 3 and are met with the standard retort of how many possible "builds" there are and how they do not want to play the same character again, they are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT.
There is a huge difference between a character that is unique and a character that can switch to a huge number of builds.
DIablo II had dozens and dozens of character archetypes within each character class. If you replayed an Amazon and went for Bowazon, it was a very different experence form a Furyzon or Jabazon. Playing the different archetype was like playing a completely different class. The experience was completely different and it was fun to play different characters through many of which were from the same class.
So Diablo II had a much much larger set of classes than D3 does.
You are Still picking your skills, just like in d2, you just dont have the illusion of all those subskills that noone used.
There are Loads of "classes" people are making, check out diablobuilds. There are over 400+ Granted a lot of them are a bit random atm as people are having fun, but you can check out all the ones people made, Even here in the class forums you can see it. It may be an issue for you, but its not an issue for the game.
D3 gets away with this entirely. in favor of a bunch of possible builds. But at the end all Demon Hunters are pretty much exactly alike and the game experience is the same. No one will want to play the same character twice.
This is the fatal flaw in Diablo 3
Except most people dont think that way. To me, and many others the only main flaw of D2, was that you were forced to be stuck like that (until respecs came)
Even now you still have classes, you just dont have the illusion of all those skills noone ever used. Look at diablobuilds or the class forums here. There are loads of unique "class" builds people have made and named. That all play uniquely. So what if you can change the freely? How dare they let people enjoy their character.
The current skill system may not be great for you, but it is great for the game, and for the many.
many are no against a better skill switching system than the current (30 second cd), but most people do not want anything like d2
Except most people dont think that way. To me, and many others the only main flaw of D2, was that you were forced to be stuck like that (until respecs came)
Which (the respecs) came around 10 years after the release of the game....
for people who played online, they came WAY before that, and were downloaded by tons for single player games
I see what the OP is saying (although thousands of other people already have), and I know why he is frusturated. It's true, you will, in all likeliehood not create a 2nd Demon Hunter/Barbarian/Etc. He is saying that D3's system will not allow for as many replays. I respect his opinion, and I remember at times I liked playing from the start as a Javazon after already finishing a Bowazon. But for the majority of the time, I was always thinking to myself;"I really wish I could just respec and play at maximum level. I have already levelled an Amazon." I think what most of the players are worried about is that this new ease of access will severely hinder the staying power of D3 vs D2. I for one think that with two expansions in the next 5 years and infinite possibilities as far as game updates are concerned, D3 will have just as much, if not more staying power.
Edit: Let's not forget that with the lack of need in creating multiple characters of the same class, the Hardcore community will likely grow substantially in comparison with D2. Hardcore deaths will result in remaking the same class multiple times. Don't lie, it will happen to all of us at one point or another!
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There is a huge difference between a character that is unique and a character that can switch to a huge number of builds.
DIablo II had dozens and dozens of character archetypes within each character class. If you replayed an Amazon and went for Bowazon, it was a very different experence form a Furyzon or Jabazon. Playing the different archetype was like playing a completely different class. The experience was completely different and it was fun to play different characters through many of which were from the same class.
So Diablo II had a much much larger set of classes than D3 does.
D3 gets away with this entirely. in favor of a bunch of possible builds. But at the end all Demon Hunters are pretty much exactly alike and the game experience is the same. No one will want to play the same character twice.
This is the fatal flaw in Diablo 3
1. People are arguing that their wizard won't feel as unique as the other peoples wizards. IF this happens, this is the players fault. There is nothing Blizzard can do to stop this. If Blizzard makes the first set of skills you pick set in stone, then people will look up the top most optimal build and always use that (see D2). This will happen even if Blizzard implements fees for switching specs, because no one wants to waste time and gold. Again, they will google the best spec and be even more like everyone else (see WoW / D2).
2. I can attest that my friends and I while playing beta differ VASTLY in our builds. Since I was able to experiment with builds freely, I quickly found the one I like and I stick to it. Every time I level my DH I always pick elemental arrow, vault, chakram and grenades. For my passive I like to pick tactical advantage. My buddy who always loves the DH ALWAYS stays with his build; hungering arrow, rapid fire, shadow power and vault. My point being even with the limited skills available (about 12 out of about 120 per class) builds differ. This will even be more so at release.
TLDR; People are mistaking ease of access as being the enemy, when it's the players themselves. Making skills set in stone / making penalties will only force more players to go with the googled, most optimal builds. Instead, giving easier access to whatever builds people want to try will result in people finding their own, unique builds that they love, and will stick with.
/thread
While I can somewhat agree, I still feel that there are some diversities even within classes to change playstyle. There aren't as many as I would like to see though.
I would argue take a look at a melee wizard VS a defensive up close AOE wizard VS a long range CC nuke wizard... the list goes on. We really aren't in a position to criticize something like this, since none of us have played release with all ~120 skills unlocked.
he is saying that in D3 everytime he makes a level 1-60 run he will use all the skills instead of using a skill set in the first run and then use a different skill set in the second run.
my answer is that nothing is stopping you from playing the game the way you want, just create your own skill sets and try to follow them in each run (actually without skill trees you can make even more skill sets so even more unique runs)
i will play it with all the skills until i beat inferno once and then when i get bored i will switch my build and do an inferno run with it and so on.
Snaks... what the guy is saying that the 75% of ruins don't change how you play the skill.. it gives it a cosmetic makeover and a damage type change. And quite honestly you having all the same skills as me but using a different ruin on a skill is NOT a different build. At most i'd call it a flavor difference.
Where are you getting your numbers? In almost every skill, 4 out of the 5 runes completely change it; whether it suddenly becomes a great resource generator, or it becomes an electric aoe, or it becomes a slow, ect ect. The runes DO change the skills, go look at the skill calculator.
OMG A ice damage meteor IS COMPLETELY different... its not like i'm still gonna hafta target it like a regular meteor.... oh wait i do!!!
OMG a snake that has a change to stun is targetted completely different from poison dart... oh wait it isn't?
etc....
If i like chocolate ice cream... and you like vanilla... does that little flavor change mean we are eating completely different meals?
Ice damage meteor means I'll be using it at the start of the fight, to slow my enemies while I hit them with something else. If it's a straight fire damage, i'll be slowing / grouping the mobs first and then hitting them with the big finisher. Sounds different to me.
If my poison dart has a chance to stun, i'll probably only use that on bigger mobs while I use more of an aoe on the others. If my dart does DoT damage, i'll be trying to hit every mob quickly to stack that dot. Again, sounds different to me.
My point being runes will defiantly change the way you play, such as your rotation, and what you use in different situations.
Sleet storm rune turns ray of frost into a swirling storm around you, that's pretty different.
Arcane orbit rune turns Arcane Orb into four swirling balls of energy that explode when enemies get too close.
Arcane mines rune turns Arcane Torrent into mines that you can kite enemies over.
Zombie Bears rune turns Zombie Charger into three zombie bears.
Phantasm rune turns Spirit Barrage into a spectre that will hit enemies for a short time.
There are plenty more but the point is they all can drastically change how you play your character with that skill.
I believe that we will see real build diversity only if all skills we can choose are rally great visually and have great audio effects. Currently many people are talking about how awasome barbs feel when they use they skills even those basic ones. With great feel to all skills people will like to stick to some they really like (as far they are useful too) even if they are not superb optimal for they character type but just because they like the look and feel of them. So for example if I have to choose between simply fireball like in D2 but they make it look really nice, fast and wizard is throwing it with great strength and frequency and it make superb sound when it is thrown and my second choice is powerful, scary blood boiling, fiery, making a big whole in the ground but slow meteor but both skills are viable in killing same monsters just that they require different way of doing so (meteor requires timing, while fireball fast shooting and avoidance) I would definitely choose fireball as I like that style of fighting when you have to avoid your enemy and shoot him in fast intervals. Some other person may rather prefer precision and time his meteor to do big damage in one huge blow. But as far as developers don't make meteor look more awesome than fireball because it is a higher level skill and both are viable in killing same monsters people will be using both, depending of they personal skill-feel preference. But if fireball looks puny and is a skill which should be used only on simple mobs and cannot be used with bosses everybody will pick up meteor as it is more viable. Changing of skills in playtime may be good thing blizzard is adding, as we could choose skill which is perfect for each mob when we play but I would rather like to play with skills I like from "feel" point of view and still be able to kill mobs as well but just differently (without going to some menu and swap skills every time I know there is some other type of mob around the corner). I hope you get my drift as I can't explain it better
PS but anyway there's no point to argue here atm before they officially reveal the rune system. The fact that they didn't like previous version gives me hope that they feel the same.
/facepalm
If in a discussion you are with Blizzard you are a fanboy. If you are against Blizzard, you're a troll/hater/rager etc.
There's just no getting away from the stereotype bullshit people come up with to invalidate other peoples opinion.
"Lulz my opinion/point of view is the right one so he has to be a fanboy/troll in order to not see this"
Also, what did you expect from a Diablo fan forum? People who didn't like Blizzard/Diablo? You might be in the wrong corner of the internet.
I dunno, u guys underestimate not perfect builds in D2. With high-end gear almost every build became viable and fun to play... I've tried tones of different characters and i'll be completely honest if say there was only one character broken - my first one in LOD, and still i had a great time playing it untill Hell, and don't regret the time spent on it. In the end - it was same old mechanics - more u play, more u learn about the game, and better at it become.
But still, almost noone cares about stats gone, i have no idea why u keep bringing it up when talking about customization. Yes, they are obsolete. As the old skill-trees compared to new system. The only thing we want is to be there a more serious decision to make at some point. For example, like i said in another topic, making runes bound to skill and removed if skill's swapped. That will let you a lot of time to experiment with builds (due to chip low-mid lvl runes) without making new character. It will let u to completely change skills still at any time. But it will make some benefit to setting with one skill-set at some point when you get high level runes, therefore will make the feel of putting some effort in your build, make it more special, make it a "build" instead of just atm chosen skills.
Even now you still have classes, you just dont have the illusion of all those skills noone ever used. Look at diablobuilds or the class forums here. There are loads of unique "class" builds people have made and named. That all play uniquely. So what if you can change the freely? How dare they let people enjoy their character.
The current skill system may not be great for you, but it is great for the game, and for the many.
many are no against a better skill switching system than the current (30 second cd), but most people do not want anything like d2
Edit: Let's not forget that with the lack of need in creating multiple characters of the same class, the Hardcore community will likely grow substantially in comparison with D2. Hardcore deaths will result in remaking the same class multiple times. Don't lie, it will happen to all of us at one point or another!