Hello guys. Looks like after all this time I will finally be in the "Blizzard" side of the argument. I will wear off my troll hide just for a second...
In the recent Blizz post (http://www.diablofan...system-changes/) they announced a major rework in the basic stats system. Please, read the changes before reading the rest of this thread.
I read an massive amount of posts gating that system. In my opnion majority of people simply didn't get the change and even compered it to WoW (completly different type of item design).
Some people said the changes "dumbed down" the stats system because now the choices are too simple. Now only two stat is useful for eahc class, while in the preview system all 4 stats were useful for everyone.
You're missing an important point. This change does NOT simplify or reduce customisation. Barbarian could use precision and now he can't use DEX or INT to buff his damage. But don't forget that Precision was changed to 'Increase critical chance" and this stat still exist. Barbarians still have too choose between "increase damage" and "increase critical chance/damage" just like before. It's not like precision was removed from the game and barbarian cna now only choose between STR or VIT.
People are thinking that the modifier trade off in D3 only exist between basic stats (STr vs. DEX vs. VIT vs. INT) while this is completly false. Some fans are comment stuff like "oh great.. Barbarian = STR/VIT". You forget the game have like a hundred other modifiers (critical chance, critical damage, damage return, attack speed, dozen of resource management mods, etc..) and picking only STR and VIt mena syou will have less of a hundred other mods.
Precision is not gone, it only have a different name. You still have too choose between critical and damage, just like before.
Those new stats are not here to dumb down the game or increase customisation. There are two reasons for this:
1. Creat a pool of bad items for each class. The way it was before, a legendary item was equally good for all classes (since all classes used all mods in the game). The Grandfather was just as useful for an wizard like it was for a barbarian because the wizard used all the attack and precision bonus from that weapon just the like barbarian. They runned in a situation were item trade was really not interesting because every class could make a good use of every item (unless it's a class weapon or a weapon that can't be used by that class).
It also reduced the excitment of hunting for items because everything looked good for you. Once you had a attack set, you only change it for a stronger attack set. Since attack is only one stats it was really easy to complete this set. Now finding your full "damage" set is more difficult because theres 3 +damage stats and your class can only use one.
2. Balance. For a matter of gameplay, the barbarian needs to have much more armor and defence then other classes. However they were having difficulties in implementing that once every class used the same armor pieces and they couldn't count on skills for that because it forced the barbarian to allways pick those skills.
By adding those new stats theres a way to implement better defence for the barbarian without making it acessible for other classes. They can also implement evasion on the DH and the Monk without making it viable for all classes. The WD can also further specialize his role as health globe dropper (he has several skills with health globes synergy) without sacrificing damage.
Haven't finished reading your post but just wanted to say, as a response to your, "but don't forget that Precision was changed to 'Increase critical chance" and this stat still exist. Barbarians still have too choose between "increase damage" and "increase critical chance/damage" just like before. It's not like precision was removed from the game and barbarian cna now only choose between STR or VIT.": There is a difference between an attribute that each character has which increases in level, and a stat that is given by an item. Strength is an attribute that all characters will have at creation. Critical chance is now only given through items.
*Reading on...*
"Balance. For a matter of gameplay, the barbarian needs to have much more armor and defence then other classes. "
Maybe in your cookie-cutter mind. But what you claim here is exactly what people mean when they say this takes away from customization. For example: What is a player supposed to do if they wanted to play a Melee Wizard? What about the Monk who wanted to be able to take a lot of damage while other's in his party burned down the target? Now, with the new changes, they're going to be forced into mainstream specs and playstyles.
"By adding those new stats theres a way to implement better defence for the barbarian without making it acessible for other classes. They can also implement evasion on the DH and the Monk without making it viable for all classes."
And how can you say that this is a positive thing?
...and finally
"The WD can also further specialize his role as health globe dropper (he has several skills with health globes synergy) without sacrificing damage. "
Not sure if you're aware of this, but the WD's higher intellect isn't going to cause health globes to heal his teammates for more hp, the benefit will only be applied to the WD themselves.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing a Wizard. Looking for Demon Hunters to play with.
Hmm i saw a big wall of text and was like.. eh.. but then i see you're a berserk fan so i will read and reply in a bit as you have earned my ear. (or eyes i guess)
Haven't finished reading your post but just wanted to say, as a response to your, "but don't forget that Precision was changed to 'Increase critical chance" and this stat still exist. Barbarians still have too choose between "increase damage" and "increase critical chance/damage" just like before. It's not like precision was removed from the game and barbarian cna now only choose between STR or VIT.": There is a difference between an attribute that each character has which increases in level, and a stat that is given by an item. Strength is an attribute that all characters will have at creation. Critical chance is now only given through items.
*Reading on...*
"Balance. For a matter of gameplay, the barbarian needs to have much more armor and defence then other classes. "
Maybe in your cookie-cutter mind. But what you claim here is exactly what people mean when they say this takes away from customization. For example: What is a player supposed to do if they wanted to play a Melee Wizard? What about the Monk who wanted to be able to take a lot of damage while other's in his party burned down the target? Now, with the new changes, they're going to be forced into mainstream specs and playstyles.
You can still grab Physical Resistance for melee wizards.
Monks can make a Physical Resistance/DEX/Vit build. If anything, tank monks are more viable because he can build his defensive side by picking DEX (which improves his damage and reduce damage he takes).
Noone is forced into anything. The only change is that the barbarian can now have more defense which is essential. In previews alpha footage the barbarian was having almost impossible time in Inferno because of his playstyle. Wizard have huge amount of CC and defensive spells like mirror image and slow time. A melee wizard shouldn't have the barbarian's defense.
I think you're right, good post OP. I also truly believe Blizzard when they admit the attribute types were causing unbalanceable itemization problems.
What surprises me is that it took Blizzard this long to figure out the core mechanics of character attributes. Doesn't give me much confidence in their ability to envision and design a game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
Haven't finished reading your post but just wanted to say, as a response to your, "but don't forget that Precision was changed to 'Increase critical chance" and this stat still exist. Barbarians still have too choose between "increase damage" and "increase critical chance/damage" just like before. It's not like precision was removed from the game and barbarian cna now only choose between STR or VIT.": There is a difference between an attribute that each character has which increases in level, and a stat that is given by an item. Strength is an attribute that all characters will have at creation. Critical chance is now only given through items.
*Reading on...*
"Balance. For a matter of gameplay, the barbarian needs to have much more armor and defence then other classes. "
Maybe in your cookie-cutter mind. But what you claim here is exactly what people mean when they say this takes away from customization. For example: What is a player supposed to do if they wanted to play a Melee Wizard? What about the Monk who wanted to be able to take a lot of damage while other's in his party burned down the target? Now, with the new changes, they're going to be forced into mainstream specs and playstyles.
You can still grab Physical Resistance for melee wizards.
Monks can make a Physical Resistance/DEX/Vit build. If anything, tank monks are more viable because he can build his defensive side by picking DEX (which improves his damage and reduce damage he takes).
Noone is forced into anything. The only change is that the barbarian can now have more defense which is essential. In previews alpha footage the barbarian was having almost impossible time in Inferno because of his playstyle. Wizard have huge amount of CC and defensive spells like mirror image and slow time. A melee wizard shouldn't have the barbarian's defense.
Ah, yes. I suppose you're right. It does make sense that a class that relies on melee damage gets a little bit of a bonus to defense, as they will be in the thick of things at all times. However, I still feel that having next to no bonus without items is kind of lame. It's very weird knowing that a class will only benefit from two stats.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing a Wizard. Looking for Demon Hunters to play with.
I don't know why there's all this outcry about stats. They are still automatically assigned. Yes, specific classes will want specific +stats on items, but its in the item hunt, not any stat maxing. Finding a better weapon that does better damage is worth more than an extra couple of points in Strength.
Bashiok actually replied to concerns over the new attribute system.
This system actually makes the game more item relient, which is a good thing, right?
And someone said, "well, str and vit is for barbs, dex and vit is for DHs and monks, only WDs and wizards have choices to make', which is so stupid.
Dex is good for barbs since dodge totally mitigates damage. Armor is now strength bound, which you do need when you actually get hit, which will hurt like hell in Inferno. The only crappy thing I think is int, since str and dex mitigates damage, but orbs isn't really such a huge aid. Bashiok said they are looking into it, and will perhaps change it to +resist or something.
Overall, I like the new system, it creates a balance between protection and damage, and now you will more likely pick up great items that will be usefull to your alts.
Dex is good for barbs since dodge totally mitigates damage. Armor is now strength bound, which you do need when you actually get hit, which will hurt like hell in Inferno. The only crappy thing I think is int, since str and dex mitigates damage, but orbs isn't really such a huge aid. Bashiok said they are looking into it, and will perhaps change it to +resist or something.
INT giving +resistance would be really sweet. I liked the orb bonus for the WD but i guess it's not a really fun bonus for an Wizard. Improved resistance also fit the magical classes... A high INT wizard for example might teleport to block a very power elemental projetile that otherwise would hit his DH buddy.
Different kinds of resistances (elemental, armor and evasion) sets the classes apart, which provides unique gameplay.
But changing the +globe to +resistances seems a little too good. If its like it was in D2 resistances are things that are a little hard to get and that give you huge bonuses to your survivability. Adding them as a "free bonus" to a Stat seems a little too good. If you think about it... a Wizard with high natural resistances... he can kite/cc so melee mobs arent a real concern... so he only has to care for physical ranged mobs?
Not if the bonus is minimal. I'm not sure about resistance values in D3, so I'll use D2 as an example. Let's say every 2 points in Int gives you a .1 resistance boost, then 100 points will add up to 5 resist and 250 will give you 12. It's not a huge amount, but it adds up to make a difference. Perhaps they should keep the globe bonus, but also add resistance, though with a small point to resist amount. That will definitely make Int an interesting attribute to the other classes.
And Wizards and WDs will definitely benefit from a resistance increase, since the mobs that they will be running away from most are spellcasters and ranged attackers, which is where str and dex comes in.
My only problem with the new stat system is that it's identical to WoW's (new) stat system. Meaning, if an item has STR on it to begin with, don't even bother thinking about using it no matter what else is on it unless you're a Barbarian. I think it's just a confusing alternative to stamping the item with a big, fat, red BARBARIAN ONLY requirement.
I don't like it because it forces players to play the way the item designers want them to. That alone is the main reason I stopped playing WoW, because I discovered a fun (and efficient) build for my character that the designers deemed unacceptable, then they broke it for me.
Diablo is a game where anyone can use a shield, or a bow, or a sword. The WoW ideology of "Strength = War/Pal/DK" doesn't seem like it should be applied here.
Tell me this. We have the same stats in WoW; we have primary stats, str, int, agi (dex), stam (vit). And we also have secondaries, such as crit chance, haste, and .... The problem is here: have you ever seen a warrior to choose agi or crit over pure str? Or is there any hunter out there with int on? These changes remove the players' ability to customize whatever they want. With these changes, we go back to cookie-cutter mind-set of WoW (which is exactly opposite of what Jay said they wanted last Blizzcon.)
I agree there were problems with previous stats, but new changes won’t fix them. And I have problem with this: instead of going forward, they took a side-step or even a step backward. Some changes were positive but in overall, it was Meh
But overall, it is their game. You don’t know anything until the game is out. Then you can decide if you want to buy the game or not. I just hope for best.
My only problem with the new stat system is that it's identical to WoW's (new) stat system. Meaning, if an item has STR on it to begin with, don't even bother thinking about using it no matter what else is on it unless you're a Barbarian. I think it's just a confusing alternative to stamping the item with a big, fat, red BARBARIAN ONLY requirement.
Well, the argument goes, Str just replaces the old defense attribute, its the new attribute that adds straight damage mitigation. Only difference is now it also gives barb damage. Sure it's more sought after by barbs, but I think other classes will still want the dodge from Dex and the Armor from Str. Especially in Inferno, from the video they had at Blizzcon, some classes got two shotted. So, I definitely think all classes would want some Dex to totally avoid damage, but also want Str for when they do get hit.
You can't really compare it to WoW, Diablo is an ARPG and the functions under the hood will work differently from an MMO.
In the end, we'll have to see how it plays when people get their hands on it. I would really like to see some people test the new attributes out against the Skeleton King.
Tell me this. We have the same stats in WoW; we have primary stats, str, int, agi (dex), stam (vit). And we also have secondaries, such as crit chance, haste, and .... The problem is here: have you ever seen a warrior to choose agi or crit over pure str? Or is there any hunter out there with int on? These changes remove the players' ability to customize whatever they want. With these changes, we go back to cookie-cutter mind-set of WoW (which is exactly opposite of what Jay said they wanted last Blizzcon.)
I agree there were problems with previous stats, but new changes won’t fix them. And I have problem with this: instead of going forward, they took a side-step or even a step backward. Some changes were positive but in overall, it was Meh
But overall, it is their game. You don’t know anything until the game is out. Then you can decide if you want to buy the game or not. I just hope for best.
No, we don't have primary and secondary stats like in wow.
In wow every item have the "slots" for primary stat mods and the slots for "secondary" stat mods. This is why theres no trade-off between STr and Critical, for example (only between STR and AGI).
In D3 theres no such separation when it comes down to item. every point of STR you got means you abondoned not only DEX, VIT and INT, but also Crit, Attack Speed, Damage Return, Magic Find, etc...
Theres only one modifier pool in D3 and the tradeoff exist between ALL modifiers. Precision = Critical Hit Chance in every single way (when it comes down to items).
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"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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In the recent Blizz post (http://www.diablofan...system-changes/) they announced a major rework in the basic stats system. Please, read the changes before reading the rest of this thread.
I read an massive amount of posts gating that system. In my opnion majority of people simply didn't get the change and even compered it to WoW (completly different type of item design).
Some people said the changes "dumbed down" the stats system because now the choices are too simple. Now only two stat is useful for eahc class, while in the preview system all 4 stats were useful for everyone.
You're missing an important point. This change does NOT simplify or reduce customisation. Barbarian could use precision and now he can't use DEX or INT to buff his damage. But don't forget that Precision was changed to 'Increase critical chance" and this stat still exist. Barbarians still have too choose between "increase damage" and "increase critical chance/damage" just like before. It's not like precision was removed from the game and barbarian cna now only choose between STR or VIT.
People are thinking that the modifier trade off in D3 only exist between basic stats (STr vs. DEX vs. VIT vs. INT) while this is completly false. Some fans are comment stuff like "oh great.. Barbarian = STR/VIT". You forget the game have like a hundred other modifiers (critical chance, critical damage, damage return, attack speed, dozen of resource management mods, etc..) and picking only STR and VIt mena syou will have less of a hundred other mods.
Precision is not gone, it only have a different name. You still have too choose between critical and damage, just like before.
Those new stats are not here to dumb down the game or increase customisation. There are two reasons for this:
1. Creat a pool of bad items for each class. The way it was before, a legendary item was equally good for all classes (since all classes used all mods in the game). The Grandfather was just as useful for an wizard like it was for a barbarian because the wizard used all the attack and precision bonus from that weapon just the like barbarian. They runned in a situation were item trade was really not interesting because every class could make a good use of every item (unless it's a class weapon or a weapon that can't be used by that class).
It also reduced the excitment of hunting for items because everything looked good for you. Once you had a attack set, you only change it for a stronger attack set. Since attack is only one stats it was really easy to complete this set. Now finding your full "damage" set is more difficult because theres 3 +damage stats and your class can only use one.
2. Balance. For a matter of gameplay, the barbarian needs to have much more armor and defence then other classes. However they were having difficulties in implementing that once every class used the same armor pieces and they couldn't count on skills for that because it forced the barbarian to allways pick those skills.
By adding those new stats theres a way to implement better defence for the barbarian without making it acessible for other classes. They can also implement evasion on the DH and the Monk without making it viable for all classes. The WD can also further specialize his role as health globe dropper (he has several skills with health globes synergy) without sacrificing damage.
There is a difference between an attribute that each character has which increases in level, and a stat that is given by an item. Strength is an attribute that all characters will have at creation. Critical chance is now only given through items.
*Reading on...*
"Balance. For a matter of gameplay, the barbarian needs to have much more armor and defence then other classes. "
Maybe in your cookie-cutter mind. But what you claim here is exactly what people mean when they say this takes away from customization. For example: What is a player supposed to do if they wanted to play a Melee Wizard? What about the Monk who wanted to be able to take a lot of damage while other's in his party burned down the target? Now, with the new changes, they're going to be forced into mainstream specs and playstyles.
"By adding those new stats theres a way to implement better defence for the barbarian without making it acessible for other classes. They can also implement evasion on the DH and the Monk without making it viable for all classes."
And how can you say that this is a positive thing?
...and finally
"The WD can also further specialize his role as health globe dropper (he has several skills with health globes synergy) without sacrificing damage. "
Not sure if you're aware of this, but the WD's higher intellect isn't going to cause health globes to heal his teammates for more hp, the benefit will only be applied to the WD themselves.
Doomwolf (Male Demon Hunter)
Kainé (Female Monk) - Nier Reference
You can still grab Physical Resistance for melee wizards.
Monks can make a Physical Resistance/DEX/Vit build. If anything, tank monks are more viable because he can build his defensive side by picking DEX (which improves his damage and reduce damage he takes).
Noone is forced into anything. The only change is that the barbarian can now have more defense which is essential. In previews alpha footage the barbarian was having almost impossible time in Inferno because of his playstyle. Wizard have huge amount of CC and defensive spells like mirror image and slow time. A melee wizard shouldn't have the barbarian's defense.
What surprises me is that it took Blizzard this long to figure out the core mechanics of character attributes. Doesn't give me much confidence in their ability to envision and design a game.
-Thomas Jefferson
Ah, yes. I suppose you're right. It does make sense that a class that relies on melee damage gets a little bit of a bonus to defense, as they will be in the thick of things at all times. However, I still feel that having next to no bonus without items is kind of lame. It's very weird knowing that a class will only benefit from two stats.
This system actually makes the game more item relient, which is a good thing, right?
And someone said, "well, str and vit is for barbs, dex and vit is for DHs and monks, only WDs and wizards have choices to make', which is so stupid.
Dex is good for barbs since dodge totally mitigates damage. Armor is now strength bound, which you do need when you actually get hit, which will hurt like hell in Inferno. The only crappy thing I think is int, since str and dex mitigates damage, but orbs isn't really such a huge aid. Bashiok said they are looking into it, and will perhaps change it to +resist or something.
Overall, I like the new system, it creates a balance between protection and damage, and now you will more likely pick up great items that will be usefull to your alts.
INT giving +resistance would be really sweet. I liked the orb bonus for the WD but i guess it's not a really fun bonus for an Wizard. Improved resistance also fit the magical classes... A high INT wizard for example might teleport to block a very power elemental projetile that otherwise would hit his DH buddy.
Different kinds of resistances (elemental, armor and evasion) sets the classes apart, which provides unique gameplay.
And Wizards and WDs will definitely benefit from a resistance increase, since the mobs that they will be running away from most are spellcasters and ranged attackers, which is where str and dex comes in.
I don't like it because it forces players to play the way the item designers want them to. That alone is the main reason I stopped playing WoW, because I discovered a fun (and efficient) build for my character that the designers deemed unacceptable, then they broke it for me.
Diablo is a game where anyone can use a shield, or a bow, or a sword. The WoW ideology of "Strength = War/Pal/DK" doesn't seem like it should be applied here.
I agree there were problems with previous stats, but new changes won’t fix them. And I have problem with this: instead of going forward, they took a side-step or even a step backward. Some changes were positive but in overall, it was Meh
But overall, it is their game. You don’t know anything until the game is out. Then you can decide if you want to buy the game or not. I just hope for best.
You can't really compare it to WoW, Diablo is an ARPG and the functions under the hood will work differently from an MMO.
In the end, we'll have to see how it plays when people get their hands on it. I would really like to see some people test the new attributes out against the Skeleton King.
No, we don't have primary and secondary stats like in wow.
In wow every item have the "slots" for primary stat mods and the slots for "secondary" stat mods. This is why theres no trade-off between STr and Critical, for example (only between STR and AGI).
In D3 theres no such separation when it comes down to item. every point of STR you got means you abondoned not only DEX, VIT and INT, but also Crit, Attack Speed, Damage Return, Magic Find, etc...
Theres only one modifier pool in D3 and the tradeoff exist between ALL modifiers. Precision = Critical Hit Chance in every single way (when it comes down to items).