I am a genius and my builds will kill everyone. OMFG A NOOB STOLE MY BUILD MY SECRETS ARE OUT AND NOW EVERYONE WON'T THINK I'M A GENIUS. My e-peen is small now.
Reality:
No one cares about your build.
Strawman. There has been no claim here that a build is genius. If you want to flame, go elsewhere.
Wow, is this debate necessary? It's the difference between whether we have an armory or not... yes? Who would be opposed to that and why? And why would anyone be opposed to an "inspect" option?
I don't know, you could read the last two pages about why someone may be opposed to it.
The thing about Diablo is that unless someone tells you there gear, there is no way of knowing what gear they have excluding a few legendarys with unique graphics.
Again, random attributes make it impossible for someone to research on a database site to find out what you are wearing.
You still haven't explained to me why this is a problem.
It doesn't matter how many years the game is out. What matters is the direction Blizzard took. Cause it seems they follow that for every game.
It does matter. It means their game has been successful without this feature. It means this feature is not needed.
If anything this would be caused by Activision, but I personally don't see it. The changes they made are minor and long overdue. I don't think they have anything to do with websites. I think it has to do with Blizzards patching cycle where it takes them 5 years to realize what they need to add.
What i mean is that for WoW, the inspect feature was there all along (later they added the spec in the inspect feature).
Maybe. But you are switching subjects. WoW's gear inspection doesn't really give anyone any interesting information. Everyone has the same build everyone fights the same boss so they all get the same gear, customization in WoW is null so it's really not an issue there. People still manage to complain about appearance tabs but meh.
Armory isn't in game, sure. But it's on the new battle.net. The one they're promoting ever since StarCraft II (that also has player profile on battle.net with achievements etc) launched for "uniting their franchises".
Yeah well I'm going to wait until they actually unite them. Currently, WoW is not on battle.net, and SCII doesn't have a lot of info to store, so we don't have a proper example of their battle.net doing what it's supposed to.
Either way, i think the game will be too much fun to experiment with. Copying from an existing "good" spec seems like a waste. I doubt many people will do that.
I believe the MMO's, RTSs, and RPG's we have prove that people are obsessed with copying others and running cookie cutter.
I expect massive amounts of "you noob you are not using the right spec" if inspection is in.
You fight a few monsters together and the player3 is not happy with how you're killing things.
Player 3 inspects "your build sucks".
So much for coop.
Been there, done that, do not want. I hate in MMO's and I don't want it in my action RPG's. I also know raiders like you are not bothered by this since you think everyone should use the same perfect build for everything and everyone else is an idiot. I don't agree. I believe armories support the raider mentality and I don't want it in a game that won't even have raiding. That is all.
As for third party add-on support, they may accept that for WoW but they already mentioned nothing like that will be supported (or allowed on battle.net) for Diablo III, so it can be quite the difference.
If Diablo III was an MMO they wouldn't say that I assure you. MMO addons are just very difficult to stop so they don't bother + they're too lazy to design a proper UI.
It's really bad to compare games of entirely different genres.
That's not straw-man, that's fact. A very small number of people come up with the builds MOST people use. The odds of you being among them are exceedingly small. You don't want to protect your build unless you think it's good. Therefore, statistically speaking, wanting to protect your build means you think a lot better of yourself than you are.
Last time I checked, you weren't a Betazoid, so you can't read my mind, therefore it's not a fact, it's ad hominem, and a straw man. Statistics lie especially in my case. Telling me what I think or what I want is pretty silly unless you have indeed mastered the art of telepathy.
A very small number of people come up with the builds MOST people use. The odds of you being among them are exceedingly small.
Most people don't use any specific build anyway.
I never talked about being among 'them', nor will 'they' exist in Diablo III. If you don't understand what the discussion is about, perhaps you shouldn't participate in it.
I dunno, I think I understand it pretty well, you just don't like what I'm saying. It's OK though, I'm fairly certain Blizz sees things my way and will implement inspection features.
On the another note, those kind of games that don't let you see eachother's equipment/build/whatever very well are exactly the kinds of games that have poorly developed metagames. If all information is hidden except by those who choose to share it, the metagame advances slowly. It makes the game boring. That's why SC2 is so great--all those share features mean strategies switch up in mere hours. Things spread lighting fast!
I figured out the problem Equinox, we are both using the same reasoning to defend our opinion.
Reason: Diablo has an unlimited amount of builds and gear choice.
You feel this is the reason for secrecy behind your own choices.
I feel this variety warrants the need if an armory.
Either way, it comes down to our own opinion. My question is, why do you want to keep your choices such a secret. Especially gear since anything except legendaries will be hard to replicate given the random nature of the gear.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I think his main reason is because he thinks some players will discriminate against you if you aren't wearing good gear. I think this problem is easily solved with paroxysm's inspect open/closed option. That way you can easily compare gear with friends, traders etc. but if you're getting harassed by dicks who don't approve of your gear/build you can disable it. Also if your gear is HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL you can disable it. Or it can be a static option that is always enabled for your battle.net friends but disabled for strangers.
Is there anything else that can be added? or just more arguing about who is more correct? I think someone should bring it up on the Battle.net forums to see if you can get a response from Bashiok on the status.
Things like that boost metagame and metagame gives many people sense of live community on global scale that pushes them to continue playing.
This
Like in SC2 back at launch, this semi-pro player named TLO said one time he tried some crazy strategy, and dominated with it in a few ladder games one evening. He faced other people using his own strategy against him (he played random back then) only hours later on that same evening.
It doesn't matter how many years the game is out. What matters is the direction Blizzard took. Cause it seems they follow that for every game.
It does matter. It means their game has been successful without this feature. It means this feature is not needed.
If anything this would be caused by Activision, but I personally don't see it. The changes they made are minor and long overdue. I don't think they have anything to do with websites. I think it has to do with Blizzards patching cycle where it takes them 5 years to realize what they need to add.
It means it's not vital for the game to be a success, not that it's not needed. Look at how many people are checking the armory and you'll get my point.
What i mean is that for WoW, the inspect feature was there all along (later they added the spec in the inspect feature).
Maybe. But you are switching subjects. WoW's gear inspection doesn't really give anyone any interesting information. Everyone has the same build everyone fights the same boss so they all get the same gear, customization in WoW is null so it's really not an issue there. People still manage to complain about appearance tabs but meh.
Yeah, WoW indeed offers very little customization. A style tab (like in DC Universe Online) would make it more interesting but that's a little off-topic.
Armory isn't in game, sure. But it's on the new battle.net. The one they're promoting ever since StarCraft II (that also has player profile on battle.net with achievements etc) launched for "uniting their franchises".
Yeah well I'm going to wait until they actually unite them. Currently, WoW is not on battle.net, and SCII doesn't have a lot of info to store, so we don't have a proper example of their battle.net doing what it's supposed to.
WoW "is" on battle.net. I mean, you can talk to people playing WoW while playing StarCraft II already through Real-ID. And the WoW forums are hosted on battle.net now too.
Either way, i think the game will be too much fun to experiment with. Copying from an existing "good" spec seems like a waste. I doubt many people will do that.
I believe the MMO's, RTSs, and RPG's we have prove that people are obsessed with copying others and running cookie cutter.
I expect massive amounts of "you noob you are not using the right spec" if inspection is in.
You fight a few monsters together and the player3 is not happy with how you're killing things.
Player 3 inspects "your build sucks".
So much for coop.
Been there, done that, do not want. I hate in MMO's and I don't want it in my action RPG's. I also know raiders like you are not bothered by this since you think everyone should use the same perfect build for everything and everyone else is an idiot. I don't agree. I believe armories support the raider mentality and I don't want it in a game that won't even have raiding. That is all.
I was actually one of the few raiders that wouldn't browse through guides. Of course i was in luck and my guild only looked my damage output (was a mage) and not at my spec. There were moments where other mages would inspect me and say "whaat? that spec works?" but that was about it. In Diablo III, the example wasn't too right either. Same way it could happen without inspect:
-player joins game
-player sees you killing stuff in a weird way
-player asks your spec (you tell him or ignore him whatever)
-player says you're a noob using those spells and leaves
As for third party add-on support, they may accept that for WoW but they already mentioned nothing like that will be supported (or allowed on battle.net) for Diablo III, so it can be quite the difference.
If Diablo III was an MMO they wouldn't say that I assure you. MMO addons are just very difficult to stop so they don't bother + they're too lazy to design a proper UI.
It's really bad to compare games of entirely different genres.
Ok, on this one i guess we argued about something we agree?!
I think the one thing that developers were pushing is the large amount of skill builds and large 'inventory' of items. So the possibility of going for the same build will be nearly worthless because there are too many avenues of development to stroll down. Experienced players will be continuing to develop thoughts and ideas of builds; both skills and equip. Newer players or not-so-committed players will be chasing two or three builds behind the 'pros'. It could literally take years for newer players to catch up and by then (knock on wood) there will have been an expansion, pushing the boundaries even further of character development.
I am in no way concerned over gear, if you compare it to WoW, it didn't matter if you had the same gear, you needed to understand how to play the build. In D2 it was pretty much auto-pilot when you had the build; D3 has been said to rely more on strategy than button mashing. Just because they can look at your gear really isn't giving them any kind of advantage, if anything it will help encourage younger players to push for the higher end and try to get better equip rather than screwing around farting in the microphone on Ventrillo.
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Sometimes you don't always know where you stand... until you know that you won't run away.
If using someone else's random build will be pointless, and if seeing someone's gear doesn't mean anything, why do it at all? It just becomes a matter of judging at that point. And coming on forums trying to discuss something and getting people to say "oh your gear is crap you don't know the game" is fun. <_<:rolleyes:
If it's useless, why add it?
And, seriously, metagame is a horrible phenomenon people. You know how boring SCII becomes where everyone builds the same exact thing every game? It was much funner in beta and shortly after launch when nobody knew anything and people would actually use their brain to devise a build. It has a really bad effect on League of Legends, as well. Metagames lead to stale play and bad balancing because developers do not see what is actually true and players don't want to go outside the frames. The game needs to constantly change and keep players on their toes, because following a pattern to a dot gets old very fast.
"direction of modern gaming" is in the gutter. I guess you like uniting everything with facebook, too. I would not want Diablo III adding to that. Diablo is not CoD, and it's not WoW. Milk your fanbases elsewhere.
@CritterCutter
Yeah, I'd be OK with that. I'm specifically against the Armory, which is an involuntary stalking/judging tool.
Think of it as advertisement... If a player lands the legendary or w/e the ultra rare items are called, it HAS to be shown off for people to know what is out there in the game. Right or wrong Blizz will find a way to show off what is in the game, it is encouragement for people to keep playing/grinding. IF you are really hardcore and want a far out angle...in real life you can see peoples gear
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sometimes you don't always know where you stand... until you know that you won't run away.
That's why SC2 is so great--all those share features mean strategies switch up in mere hours. Things spread lighting fast!
Really? You find that fun?
You play against Protoss. What do they go? 4-gate. What do they go after that? Deathball.
Repeat x30.
Please tell me they don't go 4-gate and deathball anymore otherwise your whole point of strategies switching up in mere hours is moot because that sat around there for weeks.
Think of it as advertisement... If a player lands the legendary or w/e the ultra rare items are called, it HAS to be shown off for people to know what is out there in the game.
Yeah but I can do that anyway. Why would I want to show off my crappy gear until I get some good gear? It's not like people are not going to show it off.
IF you are really hardcore and want a far out angle...in real life you can see peoples gear
There's a reason EVE doesn't really give any information on a player... in real life yeah you can see I have a cloth shirt on me. That's it. You can't know that I'm a martial arts master.
EVE is very realistic in that regard, you don't know anything you're not supposed to know and you're not supposed to know a person's spec. And EVE is generally considered very hardcore. WoW is not.
I agree, and WoW has 12mil subscribers while EVE has 350k. We (hardcore fans) are not targeted audience, they would like to keep us around but in end it's all about casuals.
This wasn't really a financial discussion last time I checked. I believe financially this particular feature will neither make nor break the game.
Let there be an inspect option with "ALLOW INSPECTION" or DISALLOW INSPECTION" option.
Also the "ALLOW INSPECTION" option is only open to a players I choose to allow and not public.(same as party function)
One last option, that being only party members have the option of asking for Inspection. Otherwise there will be spamming of players asking permission to INSPECT.
Or better still there could be an option out of game where you can display the character profile, skills, traits etc OR NOT of course.
Sooner or later people will write about their builds but my guess is that most players will want to experiment a lot before asking about other players builds.
Will Blizzard implement the inspection option? Most likely.
BUT what I hope they do is give the option to turn it off or on like some here suggested. I am one of the players that doesn’t inspect, or like being inspected by others. You want to know what I am wearing ASK ME, I might link it.
Does this slow down the meta game? YES.
Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not. Slowing down the meta game adds longevity. SC2’s meta game is pretty much a time warp. What happened? Everyone plays the same way every single game. Trust me I know, I was in masters.
Inspection is merely a means of comparison. Good or bad, comparisons will be made and people will be excluded or included on top of others. This goes for equipment and ESPECIALLY builds.
I'd be very suprised if there isnt an inspect feature, and a web armory to go with it. I really dont understand all the rage over people seeing what you have, some of you guys are acting like they are going to steal your gear just by seeing it, or somehow make you look bad by using your build and out performing you or something. Why all the hate for people seeing how you spent your skill/trait points and gear choices?
Your gear will be visible in your profile, but only to your friends. That's pretty much the new philosophy for Battle.net
Then why not leave it at that, why expand it beyond that?
If nobody cares, isn't this inspect feature just a waste of resources?
I don't know, you could read the last two pages about why someone may be opposed to it.
You still haven't explained to me why this is a problem.
It does matter. It means their game has been successful without this feature. It means this feature is not needed.
If anything this would be caused by Activision, but I personally don't see it. The changes they made are minor and long overdue. I don't think they have anything to do with websites. I think it has to do with Blizzards patching cycle where it takes them 5 years to realize what they need to add.
Maybe. But you are switching subjects. WoW's gear inspection doesn't really give anyone any interesting information. Everyone has the same build everyone fights the same boss so they all get the same gear, customization in WoW is null so it's really not an issue there. People still manage to complain about appearance tabs but meh.
Yeah well I'm going to wait until they actually unite them. Currently, WoW is not on battle.net, and SCII doesn't have a lot of info to store, so we don't have a proper example of their battle.net doing what it's supposed to.
I believe the MMO's, RTSs, and RPG's we have prove that people are obsessed with copying others and running cookie cutter.
I expect massive amounts of "you noob you are not using the right spec" if inspection is in.
*Make Room
*Player3 joins room
*Player3 inspects you
*Player3 leaves room
or
You fight a few monsters together and the player3 is not happy with how you're killing things.
Player 3 inspects "your build sucks".
So much for coop.
Been there, done that, do not want. I hate in MMO's and I don't want it in my action RPG's. I also know raiders like you are not bothered by this since you think everyone should use the same perfect build for everything and everyone else is an idiot. I don't agree. I believe armories support the raider mentality and I don't want it in a game that won't even have raiding. That is all.
If Diablo III was an MMO they wouldn't say that I assure you. MMO addons are just very difficult to stop so they don't bother + they're too lazy to design a proper UI.
It's really bad to compare games of entirely different genres.
Most people don't use any specific build anyway.
I never talked about being among 'them', nor will 'they' exist in Diablo III. If you don't understand what the discussion is about, perhaps you shouldn't participate in it.
On the another note, those kind of games that don't let you see eachother's equipment/build/whatever very well are exactly the kinds of games that have poorly developed metagames. If all information is hidden except by those who choose to share it, the metagame advances slowly. It makes the game boring. That's why SC2 is so great--all those share features mean strategies switch up in mere hours. Things spread lighting fast!
Reason: Diablo has an unlimited amount of builds and gear choice.
You feel this is the reason for secrecy behind your own choices.
I feel this variety warrants the need if an armory.
Either way, it comes down to our own opinion. My question is, why do you want to keep your choices such a secret. Especially gear since anything except legendaries will be hard to replicate given the random nature of the gear.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
Is there anything else that can be added? or just more arguing about who is more correct? I think someone should bring it up on the Battle.net forums to see if you can get a response from Bashiok on the status.
This
Like in SC2 back at launch, this semi-pro player named TLO said one time he tried some crazy strategy, and dominated with it in a few ladder games one evening. He faced other people using his own strategy against him (he played random back then) only hours later on that same evening.
HOW COOL IS THAT!?
It means it's not vital for the game to be a success, not that it's not needed. Look at how many people are checking the armory and you'll get my point.
Yeah, WoW indeed offers very little customization. A style tab (like in DC Universe Online) would make it more interesting but that's a little off-topic.
WoW "is" on battle.net. I mean, you can talk to people playing WoW while playing StarCraft II already through Real-ID. And the WoW forums are hosted on battle.net now too.
I was actually one of the few raiders that wouldn't browse through guides. Of course i was in luck and my guild only looked my damage output (was a mage) and not at my spec. There were moments where other mages would inspect me and say "whaat? that spec works?" but that was about it. In Diablo III, the example wasn't too right either. Same way it could happen without inspect:
-player joins game
-player sees you killing stuff in a weird way
-player asks your spec (you tell him or ignore him whatever)
-player says you're a noob using those spells and leaves
Ok, on this one i guess we argued about something we agree?!
I am in no way concerned over gear, if you compare it to WoW, it didn't matter if you had the same gear, you needed to understand how to play the build. In D2 it was pretty much auto-pilot when you had the build; D3 has been said to rely more on strategy than button mashing. Just because they can look at your gear really isn't giving them any kind of advantage, if anything it will help encourage younger players to push for the higher end and try to get better equip rather than screwing around farting in the microphone on Ventrillo.
I'll ask the same question.
If using someone else's random build will be pointless, and if seeing someone's gear doesn't mean anything, why do it at all? It just becomes a matter of judging at that point. And coming on forums trying to discuss something and getting people to say "oh your gear is crap you don't know the game" is fun. <_<:rolleyes:
If it's useless, why add it?
And, seriously, metagame is a horrible phenomenon people. You know how boring SCII becomes where everyone builds the same exact thing every game? It was much funner in beta and shortly after launch when nobody knew anything and people would actually use their brain to devise a build. It has a really bad effect on League of Legends, as well. Metagames lead to stale play and bad balancing because developers do not see what is actually true and players don't want to go outside the frames. The game needs to constantly change and keep players on their toes, because following a pattern to a dot gets old very fast.
"direction of modern gaming" is in the gutter. I guess you like uniting everything with facebook, too. I would not want Diablo III adding to that. Diablo is not CoD, and it's not WoW. Milk your fanbases elsewhere.
@CritterCutter
Yeah, I'd be OK with that. I'm specifically against the Armory, which is an involuntary stalking/judging tool.
Really? You find that fun?
You play against Protoss. What do they go? 4-gate. What do they go after that? Deathball.
Repeat x30.
Please tell me they don't go 4-gate and deathball anymore otherwise your whole point of strategies switching up in mere hours is moot because that sat around there for weeks. Yeah but I can do that anyway. Why would I want to show off my crappy gear until I get some good gear? It's not like people are not going to show it off.
There's a reason EVE doesn't really give any information on a player... in real life yeah you can see I have a cloth shirt on me. That's it. You can't know that I'm a martial arts master.
EVE is very realistic in that regard, you don't know anything you're not supposed to know and you're not supposed to know a person's spec. And EVE is generally considered very hardcore. WoW is not.
Let there be an inspect option with "ALLOW INSPECTION" or DISALLOW INSPECTION" option.
Also the "ALLOW INSPECTION" option is only open to a players I choose to allow and not public.(same as party function)
One last option, that being only party members have the option of asking for Inspection. Otherwise there will be spamming of players asking permission to INSPECT.
Or better still there could be an option out of game where you can display the character profile, skills, traits etc OR NOT of course.
Sooner or later people will write about their builds but my guess is that most players will want to experiment a lot before asking about other players builds.
Automatic inspect though ,,,, a BIG NO!
BUT what I hope they do is give the option to turn it off or on like some here suggested. I am one of the players that doesn’t inspect, or like being inspected by others. You want to know what I am wearing ASK ME, I might link it.
Does this slow down the meta game? YES.
Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not. Slowing down the meta game adds longevity. SC2’s meta game is pretty much a time warp. What happened? Everyone plays the same way every single game. Trust me I know, I was in masters.
Inspection is merely a means of comparison. Good or bad, comparisons will be made and people will be excluded or included on top of others. This goes for equipment and ESPECIALLY builds.
Take it or leave it, that’s my two cents.
Do my posts show up invisible or something? o.o