Crimson - Increases the skill's damage.
Indigo - Increases the skill's area effect.
Obsidian - The PvP rune. Increases to survivability and utility against other players.
Golden - Reduces the skill's resource cost, but depends on class. e.g. increased Monk Spirit regeneration.
Alabaster - Afflicts enemies with a status effect (confuse, knockback, freeze, etc.).
I don't think that's exactly right. Maybe loosely but if you check for example golden for WD and DH neither of those are reduced mana. Obsidian also doesn't seem to be PvP oriented. If anything I'd say Alabaster is closer. Also Alabaster isn't so much status effects. The WD vomits out acid, the wizard leaves aoe damage areas. I don't think they're all necessarily limited to that strict pattern. MAYBE loosely.
As a game dev I can tell you that @#$#@ takes a long time =/ and it gets exponentially slower as you add stuff.
I think if they had planned things out better from the beginning they might have finished up a couple of years earlier, but its not extremely surprising its taking them so long.
on the other hand they have how many people on the project? XD
so one could make the argument either way I guess. The game better rock my world, thats all im saying
Reason for complaining is because if you have been keeping up with D3 Blizzard made runestones out to be this huge major game changing mechanic, but its nothing special. Nothing that warrants this long of development time for them.
The really sad part about the runestones it that they could have simply made all those runestoned skills real skills.
I am honestly amazed that anyone could feel this way. Blizzard made the Rune system out to be exactly what it is, a way to alter every spells effect up to 5 times for a total of 6 ways to use it. I dont see how you could watch those 5 videos and come away thinking each version isnt game changing. Multiply it by 23 skills per class? Its going to be amazing.
As for the development time, thats not the only thing they have been working on.. but have you really seen this type of game have so many different graphics for skills and abilites? I sure haven't.. each skill will basically have 6 graphics (remeber Jay said at Blzcon they realized that not adding a graphical change made the skill rune feel almost broken to players) So lets do the math.. That is 690 Animations for just the Skills. Lets not even talk about the additional layers for each skill rune level, or the addition of traits (you really think 100, 200 and 300% increased effect to armor spells for Wizards won't come with a graphic?).
What I am saying is THAT IS A CRAPTON of animations. And I am also saying.. I am really really excited.. the playground we all got coming with this game is going to be unprecedentedly (wow is that a word?) huge.
Reason for complaining is because if you have been keeping up with D3 Blizzard made runestones out to be this huge major game changing mechanic, but its nothing special. Nothing that warrants this long of development time for them.
The really sad part about the runestones it that they could have simply made all those runestoned skills real skills.
They are gamechanging?.. Did you not see or read the descriptions? Ray of Frost goes from a Ray of frost that deals X damage, To either :
Crimson - Beam increases in damage the longer it remains in use, to a cap.
Indigo - Wizard is surrounded by a swirling vortex of sleet, damaging any foes that come into contact.
Obsidian - Decreases beam damage, but increases reduction in target movement and attack speed.
Golden - Arcane Power cost reduced.
Alabaster - Enemies slain by Ray of Frost have a chance to leave an area of ice on the ground where they die, damaging other enemies if they move through it.
These are pretty different from the original. Hell the indigo rune makes a ray of frost into a vortex of frost which is pretty different.
The problem is that the basic skill is now nothing. There is no Ice Beam because you need a rune for it to function well. In turn making the base skill a prerequisite to whats to come.
And really its just not that impressive I see skills like the ones in the video every time I play LoL or HoN and thats pretty sad.
I think your logic is missing one thing. If you can edit an ability then it will always be stronger than the unedited. When you get these skills your not going to just go and use your generic attack till you can rune it. You will use the skill till you can, unless you can't get the ruin you want. Maybe you never get the Crimson rune but always find the Obsidian one, you then have a choice go use the weaker spell with utility or just use the generic.
Every spell will have their place, but modding them is suppose to make them better. To say that you want the generic spell to be equal is unrealistic.
Sorry about the delayed response been busy. Anyhow paroxysm2010 I just wanted to point out why your comment really doesn't make sense. For one sometimes the rune gives you the "cheapest" cost, which means that your low cost spell now can't even compete with the cheaper one. The other problem is that you seem to forget one thing, at one point you will likely use the skill unruned.
You may not always be able to add the rune you want to your spell. If your a front loading power house then you may want something like a Crimson rune, but all you get are Obsidian runes. In the case that is constantly quoted it adds utility but at a sacrifice to power. That may not fit into your playstyle. I doubt you would put a rune in just to have one if it doesn't fit the way you want to see the spell.
Now given that this may not mean anything at a point further in the game or also because of the market place, but I think a spell will have a time when it will be used unruned.
My problem is that people are having a problem with runes being valuable over unruned spells. It is as if the spell should be so powerful that having the spell unruned is just as good an option as having it runed. I'm sure it will have its place but in the end having such an option is just good all around.
There seem to be quite a few misconceptions in this thread that I feel need to be addressed.
As the devs said, all spells will be viable runed or not.
When you rune a spell you are adding a specific utility to it. It’s not to turn it into some super uber spell of mass destruction. For example; you either boost damage, area affect, slow percentage, speed of execution... the list kinda goes on.
Picture a radar chart in your mind and each rune being a fixed point. When you rune a spell you are pulling it’s affects towards that runes point. As you get higher level runes your chart pulls closer and closer to that point. For example your ray of frost with the slow affect went from +10% too +50% slow. So your power cost went from 20 too 50 and your damage went from 50 to 30. Those are just random numbers but you get the point.
So your base spells will remain viable early on as they offer you a more general response to situations. HOWEVER, as the game goes on rune levels will be higher and your base spell will become less and less viable. IMO that is exactly how the devs wanted things to work out.
The casuals if they choose will never need to pimp out all their spells, they could just spam the base spell and get through normal fine. The hardcore gamers however, will be rewarded by seeking out the higher level runes and modifying their spells to be useful in different situations.
I like it... I like it alot.
And no spell levels remain irrelevant as that is a spell increase across the board, runed or not.
I like it. Sure, you're a hardcore gamer if you want as many options for character customization as possible, but for the average gamer there have to be limits. Games are actually better if things like skills have a clear structure. If every skill variation was more drastic or 'unique', it would just seem like a big mess.
Now there are still many options, but they are structured in two ways: around the main skills (each rune adds some variation, but usually the skill remains recognizable) and around the runes (each rune usually has a similar effect on different skills). This will give us the feeling that we are manipulating a vast, but understandable system, rather than some vague and random heap of different skills.
We have little to work on, few notions, five videos and mostly speculations.
Runes are there to give you choices and refine your character based on your gamestyle.
Someone told instead of runes Blizzard should have made skills: sure, try figure a skill tree with hundreds of skills...sounds confusing to me.
And they would be able to change the game a lot just by adding new runes, be it via patch or expansion pack.
About development time: you need plenty of time to realize animations but also you need plenty of time to balance the effects out.
Guess it's not an easy task.
Back on main topic: as ScyberDragon posted above, they started with a pattern, yet they changed it in order to have the chance to squeeze in the cool ideas they got along the way.
I don't know where any of you are getting that the original base skill lets say Whirl Wind will be viable with out a Rune.
Unless recently announced it was said that all skills are better while socketed with a rune, thus making all "original" forms of the skill useless. If you think otherwise why would anyone ever bother upgrading their Runes, why would there even be Rune levels?
Ask your selfs these questions:
How is a Runedskill adding Lifeleach to the skill any different than an Item adding the lifeleach?
How is + damage to a skill any different than getting a better weapon?
How is - resource use any different than getting it from an item?
There is only one rune that totally alters the skill and cannot be done with just a stat on an item. That is the issue and that is the complaint. It really is just another stat boosting item that is needed to max out.
There is no argument that "blahblahblah skill can be used in normal and is still viable" because guess what Normal was made for the mentally retarded if you have not noticed, and there are also runes in normal making it so that that Normal Whirl Wind your doing is fun for you but the other Barb with the level 3 Rune is making you look like a chump.
Yes we have established an un runed skill is useless compared to what it is with a rune, and I gave several suggestions for this, but like you said, its like finding a new item, of course using a sword is better than fighting with your fists ( unless maybe your a monk? o.o)
so either come up with suggestions or get over it.
Also about the rune levels, one of the first things Bashiok said was it was a minor difference, but maybe Jay got carried away with the whole wanting things to have bigger effects thing? I dunno
it would kind of suck if level 7 rune completely blew level 5 rune out of the water.
Really, I must be very stupid since I don't get it.
1: Diablo has always been a game where you tried tho get the best stuff for your character (where "best" means the one that better suit your gamestyle).
Otherwise there would not be necessity for unique items or better skills, or not?
I wonder how funny would be to play all the way through norm/nigh/hell d2 lod with base normal armors/weapons/skills...
2: if you want to use base skills nobody is going deny you that chance, it would be more challenging but that is part of the game, is not?
I've been a SP and got mostly exceptional unique items and very few elite uniques, still I played plenty of different builds and enjoyed most of them. Can't really see the problem here...
3: pal, are you really complaining about "Normal" being "normal"? really...
First of all none of you answered the questions I asked.
EVERYTHING except for one rune can be done with an item stat.
There is only one Rune that changes the way the skill works slightly. How can none of you see past this? They are just another stat to add to your character.
Yes Diablo is about loot and killing, but to add rune stones and act as if they are some amazing new game changing feature is nothing short of a lie. Like I posted before, they made out rune stones to be the biggest baddest gamebreaking feature since the use of a mouse, yet it is nothing more than adding another stat to a skill.
Yes they are great for customization, awesome, but Blizzard stressed and boasted about how amazing this rune stone system would be. But it really is nothing special, like it if you do I am not saying its terrible and the worst thing ever imagined. I am simply stating that with the amount of hype built around the system it was a complete let down for me.
And I don't care too much about making a suggestion for a video game because well it will never happen unless I make the game my self. Not saying I have some amazing game breaking feature hidden because I don't. I am simply expressing my opinion about a feature that I think was completely over hyped.
Thats kind of a good point, but we still dont know, because we still know very little about skills and rune effects,
and even what we looked at, yes a lot can be changed all the same with stats from items, and that is a valid complaint, but some of the skills change enough, take for instance WW has two changes i would say that you couldn't find on an item.
the making mini tornado's, and the enemy conversion thats pretty neat, and different, and probably not found on an item.
so yes, you have a valid statement, but again, we know soo little about rune effects on other skills at this point.
EDIT: I think its more important they keep things balanced, then get too overboard with crazy rune effects, I think ive said that before but I stand by it, BALANCE is key
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I don't think that's exactly right. Maybe loosely but if you check for example golden for WD and DH neither of those are reduced mana. Obsidian also doesn't seem to be PvP oriented. If anything I'd say Alabaster is closer. Also Alabaster isn't so much status effects. The WD vomits out acid, the wizard leaves aoe damage areas. I don't think they're all necessarily limited to that strict pattern. MAYBE loosely.
As a game dev I can tell you that @#$#@ takes a long time =/ and it gets exponentially slower as you add stuff.
I think if they had planned things out better from the beginning they might have finished up a couple of years earlier, but its not extremely surprising its taking them so long.
on the other hand they have how many people on the project? XD
so one could make the argument either way I guess. The game better rock my world, thats all im saying
I am honestly amazed that anyone could feel this way. Blizzard made the Rune system out to be exactly what it is, a way to alter every spells effect up to 5 times for a total of 6 ways to use it. I dont see how you could watch those 5 videos and come away thinking each version isnt game changing. Multiply it by 23 skills per class? Its going to be amazing.
As for the development time, thats not the only thing they have been working on.. but have you really seen this type of game have so many different graphics for skills and abilites? I sure haven't.. each skill will basically have 6 graphics (remeber Jay said at Blzcon they realized that not adding a graphical change made the skill rune feel almost broken to players) So lets do the math.. That is 690 Animations for just the Skills. Lets not even talk about the additional layers for each skill rune level, or the addition of traits (you really think 100, 200 and 300% increased effect to armor spells for Wizards won't come with a graphic?).
What I am saying is THAT IS A CRAPTON of animations. And I am also saying.. I am really really excited.. the playground we all got coming with this game is going to be unprecedentedly (wow is that a word?) huge.
I think your logic is missing one thing. If you can edit an ability then it will always be stronger than the unedited. When you get these skills your not going to just go and use your generic attack till you can rune it. You will use the skill till you can, unless you can't get the ruin you want. Maybe you never get the Crimson rune but always find the Obsidian one, you then have a choice go use the weaker spell with utility or just use the generic.
Every spell will have their place, but modding them is suppose to make them better. To say that you want the generic spell to be equal is unrealistic.
why does everyone ignore what im saying about it costing less energy to use it in its generic form ??!?!! X(
You may not always be able to add the rune you want to your spell. If your a front loading power house then you may want something like a Crimson rune, but all you get are Obsidian runes. In the case that is constantly quoted it adds utility but at a sacrifice to power. That may not fit into your playstyle. I doubt you would put a rune in just to have one if it doesn't fit the way you want to see the spell.
Now given that this may not mean anything at a point further in the game or also because of the market place, but I think a spell will have a time when it will be used unruned.
My problem is that people are having a problem with runes being valuable over unruned spells. It is as if the spell should be so powerful that having the spell unruned is just as good an option as having it runed. I'm sure it will have its place but in the end having such an option is just good all around.
As the devs said, all spells will be viable runed or not.
When you rune a spell you are adding a specific utility to it. It’s not to turn it into some super uber spell of mass destruction. For example; you either boost damage, area affect, slow percentage, speed of execution... the list kinda goes on.
Picture a radar chart in your mind and each rune being a fixed point. When you rune a spell you are pulling it’s affects towards that runes point. As you get higher level runes your chart pulls closer and closer to that point. For example your ray of frost with the slow affect went from +10% too +50% slow. So your power cost went from 20 too 50 and your damage went from 50 to 30. Those are just random numbers but you get the point.
So your base spells will remain viable early on as they offer you a more general response to situations. HOWEVER, as the game goes on rune levels will be higher and your base spell will become less and less viable. IMO that is exactly how the devs wanted things to work out.
The casuals if they choose will never need to pimp out all their spells, they could just spam the base spell and get through normal fine. The hardcore gamers however, will be rewarded by seeking out the higher level runes and modifying their spells to be useful in different situations.
I like it... I like it alot.
And no spell levels remain irrelevant as that is a spell increase across the board, runed or not.
Now there are still many options, but they are structured in two ways: around the main skills (each rune adds some variation, but usually the skill remains recognizable) and around the runes (each rune usually has a similar effect on different skills). This will give us the feeling that we are manipulating a vast, but understandable system, rather than some vague and random heap of different skills.
Runes are there to give you choices and refine your character based on your gamestyle.
Someone told instead of runes Blizzard should have made skills: sure, try figure a skill tree with hundreds of skills...sounds confusing to me.
And they would be able to change the game a lot just by adding new runes, be it via patch or expansion pack.
About development time: you need plenty of time to realize animations but also you need plenty of time to balance the effects out.
Guess it's not an easy task.
Back on main topic: as ScyberDragon posted above, they started with a pattern, yet they changed it in order to have the chance to squeeze in the cool ideas they got along the way.
@Theshadowlegacy: nice example there
Unless recently announced it was said that all skills are better while socketed with a rune, thus making all "original" forms of the skill useless. If you think otherwise why would anyone ever bother upgrading their Runes, why would there even be Rune levels?
Ask your selfs these questions:
How is a Runedskill adding Lifeleach to the skill any different than an Item adding the lifeleach?
How is + damage to a skill any different than getting a better weapon?
How is - resource use any different than getting it from an item?
There is only one rune that totally alters the skill and cannot be done with just a stat on an item. That is the issue and that is the complaint. It really is just another stat boosting item that is needed to max out.
There is no argument that "blahblahblah skill can be used in normal and is still viable" because guess what Normal was made for the mentally retarded if you have not noticed, and there are also runes in normal making it so that that Normal Whirl Wind your doing is fun for you but the other Barb with the level 3 Rune is making you look like a chump.
so either come up with suggestions or get over it.
Also about the rune levels, one of the first things Bashiok said was it was a minor difference, but maybe Jay got carried away with the whole wanting things to have bigger effects thing? I dunno
it would kind of suck if level 7 rune completely blew level 5 rune out of the water.
1: Diablo has always been a game where you tried tho get the best stuff for your character (where "best" means the one that better suit your gamestyle).
Otherwise there would not be necessity for unique items or better skills, or not?
I wonder how funny would be to play all the way through norm/nigh/hell d2 lod with base normal armors/weapons/skills...
2: if you want to use base skills nobody is going deny you that chance, it would be more challenging but that is part of the game, is not?
I've been a SP and got mostly exceptional unique items and very few elite uniques, still I played plenty of different builds and enjoyed most of them. Can't really see the problem here...
3: pal, are you really complaining about "Normal" being "normal"? really...
EVERYTHING except for one rune can be done with an item stat.
There is only one Rune that changes the way the skill works slightly. How can none of you see past this? They are just another stat to add to your character.
Yes Diablo is about loot and killing, but to add rune stones and act as if they are some amazing new game changing feature is nothing short of a lie. Like I posted before, they made out rune stones to be the biggest baddest gamebreaking feature since the use of a mouse, yet it is nothing more than adding another stat to a skill.
Yes they are great for customization, awesome, but Blizzard stressed and boasted about how amazing this rune stone system would be. But it really is nothing special, like it if you do I am not saying its terrible and the worst thing ever imagined. I am simply stating that with the amount of hype built around the system it was a complete let down for me.
And I don't care too much about making a suggestion for a video game because well it will never happen unless I make the game my self. Not saying I have some amazing game breaking feature hidden because I don't. I am simply expressing my opinion about a feature that I think was completely over hyped.
and even what we looked at, yes a lot can be changed all the same with stats from items, and that is a valid complaint, but some of the skills change enough, take for instance WW has two changes i would say that you couldn't find on an item.
the making mini tornado's, and the enemy conversion thats pretty neat, and different, and probably not found on an item.
so yes, you have a valid statement, but again, we know soo little about rune effects on other skills at this point.
EDIT: I think its more important they keep things balanced, then get too overboard with crazy rune effects, I think ive said that before but I stand by it, BALANCE is key