Obviously there will be the hardcore pvpers like myself who will spend countless hours in arena, and i can see the potential for a competitive ladder system in place to create some hard long goals to work towards.
But pve, what will we do? No longer is there this extremely long dedicated line of exp to grind to get to 99, as it will be capped at 60. And Blizzard have said that once you finish the game in all 3 difficulties you should reach the cap(roughly).
So once you have done that, you start MFing? But surely that cant be the end of the pve endgame! What do you think they would implement to keep us hooked?(ill be hooked on pvp either way).
With D2 in latter patches they released things like Dclone, and Ubers with items as reward for completing very hard tasks that were outside of the d2 storyline(as far as i'm aware). Do you think they will do something similar with d3? I believe there are 2 expansions coming but even still?
I was sorta just thinking in many MMO's(not that d3 is 1) there is raiding or massive guild fights over area's of the world that begin in a serious form once you hit the lvl cap. I'm wondering what will d3 have for us?
I think that there will be lots of end-game stuff to keep the game alive. When it was just diablo 2 the graphics sorta made the grind feel okay,and the familiarity and all that.
I hope that they will have random (or organised :thumbsup: ) encounters for a weekend in a certain area. Something that requires more than one player to tackle so that folks'll group together to finish the event. I also think that there will be many many many alts made. many many many.
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"A lot of fellows nowadays have a B.A., M.D., or Ph.D. Unfortunately, they don't have a J.O.B."
The various quests that are not the same each time you play alone is enough I think for high replayability. Also, expansion packs will definitely be released at a strategic time to keep fans glued to the game
I have never been one for end-game content. With D2, after beating Baal, I would simply just start a new character. To me, is it is the starting of characters that is fun. Once I become all-powerful, I loose interest. I like the build up of a character. Grinding hours upon hours doing Baal runs for that gear that is just slightly better than my current one is just not my idea of fun. Playing for hours upon hours taking a character from 15 to 23 and improving my character dramatically is my idea of fun. So, with all of the random events they have planned, I think this continuation of starting numerous amounts of new characters will be enough for.
With that said, PvE endgame in a game like Diablo is very tough. I feel that this is probably the biggest challenge they have in planning and designing this game. They know how long D2 has lasted and they want D3 to beat that. Ironically, I think with arena, gems & rune improving, and artisan upgrades, they have added enough to keep this game going for that long.
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Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
There was a good thread we had on this topic a while back, with some really cool insights from the people here in this forum. Have a look at the link below.
Beyond that, I will say, I'm the type that prefers spending most of my time on my godly main. Others like having lots of alts, which is also cool. The difficulty, as Scyber mentioned, is how to keep players like me interested when my main is capped and geared. He's right when he says that Diablo is a specifically difficult genre to have end-game longevity.
The obvious paradigm is grinding out marginal upgrades by farming. But that alone is not a good recipe for replay value. The point I keep trying to sell is to have dynamic, random world events specifically tailored for end-game characters. Imagine how exciting it would be to join a game, only to get an in-game announcement that something unique is happening, and you've been called out to respond. There are many ideas along those lines in the link below.
But what else can we do? One thing we haven't discussed in detail is having an engaging end-game economy (or, if we have, I haven't seen the topic). In the early days of WoW I used to have mining/blacksmithing business. I would pay people a flat rate to grind me ores and mats, and I would either craft and sell recipes, or sell materials at a mark-up if the prices were right. I find that particularly fun, and I think it fits the vision of D3 very well, given Blizz's statements that they want a strong, balanced economy, and they want gold to hold value.
Didn't they mention that there would be an achievement system of some sort? Achievements coupled with MFing will probably do it for me. I like this much better than the 99 level system. Like they have mentioned, it makes every level jump more rewarding. At the end of the game in D2 I think my character got much better from the godly gear it got verses the minute improvement from each level. I would be way more excited to get a HR than get to level 91 from 90. The achievement system sounds cool in that it would add a goal or purpose while MFing. Hopefully the rewards (Trophy's per say) will also be greater than a single digit increase in level as well because honestly in the 90's the level increase was not about improving the quality of the character as much as a status symbol which acheivement awards can easily replace in much better fashion. (Especially if some affect the look of the character) I think all the level 60 naysayers will be fine once they see that there will be plenty of achievements to works towards that will be much more dynamic than just doing runs for EXP to see your number go up. I think there will still be plenty of grinding ops for bragging rights (status or whatever getting to 99 made you). They will just be more cool and more fun to get to.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Honestly, why is this site so damn addicting? I must refresh about a hundred times a day. I'm ashamed this is only my first post.
Only thing I have to say is: killing monsters without getting any XP is boring and unrewarding. I never ground in D2 to get to 99 or whatever, but whenever I was MFing, it was good to know I was getting XP (albeit a small ammount), and whenever I leveled up, it felt good, even though I wasn't playing to get those level ups. And an extra skill point is always an extra skill point.
Hmmm... As I picture this in my head it may very well feel strange not to be gaining XP or working towards the next level even when looking for gear. I guess my hope is that they replace the missing feeling with something much more rewarding. Say, instead of watching your XP go up to get that next level,(in my opinion not very rewarding for the amount of time put in at high levels) now there is a Kill counter or something tied with a # of kills achievement that has multiple levels and various rewards. I think that leaves much more room for exciting end game play and still gives you satisfaction for each kill and a replacement for that leveling feeling with the rewards.
Basically the achievement system allows virtually endless possibilities of cool things to work towards at end game. There has to be a level cap somewhere and I do agree at 99 the level gain is not as rewarding. Yes you do get more skill points but how much does it really improve the skill. With only 60 levels each skill point you gain is that much more awesome. That feeling you get when you level should hopefully be magnified due to the noticeable improvement in your character when you get it. Just some thoughts. Can't wait to see what they come out with.
I would like to think that the endgame begins at Act 1 Hell mode.
The entirety of Hell mode should be one big tactical achievement to finish. You need to use your skills wisely. You need to watch your allies wisely. It should all be about teamwork (unless you play solo). Communication and strategy should play a big part in finishing the game. Every encounter has to be played with good decisions.
But I don't think that will be the case, so I hope they have these endgame modes to offer!
- The Endless Dungeon. Multiple types (desert, cave, tomb, etc.) that increase with difficulty the further down you go. However, drops will slightly increase each level as well. So to get really great items, you have to earn it.
- The Bounty Hunter. An NPC in each act will tell you he needs the head/heart/brain or whatever of some monster, and you have to go out and find it. Returning the bounty will give great rewards, but at great cost. The spawned monster will resemble the toughness of Uber Diablo. Usually spawns with minions. So it would be tougher to bring the monster down. And remember - there isn't any Smite or Life Tap in Diablo III!
Boss runs are boring? Don't do them. Just clear the entire Act. You won't get the same amount of good loot per hour? Of course you won't. But in games the most efficient way of doing things is rarely the most fun. I care about efficiency in my job. Games are for fun.
I guess you don't care about items either?
Many of which aren't just "+X to coolness" factor either. Some builds absolutely depend upon specific unique configurations to be even viable in hell.
If you want to play those builds, you gotta grind the item. And there aren't too many ways to do that in one lifetime, when hammerdin is the only thing that can solo-8 certain bosses.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
I honestly hope that once we kill boss monsters like diablo, baal or meph that they are rare spawns, I hope that the chance of them being where they are meant to be is greatly diminished. Put some other random super mob or mobs in their place to break up the monotony of "boss runs". Heck even spawning boss mobs in entirely different parts of the game would be cool, that way we ain't stuck to the same old boring place all the time.
Worst thing I hated about D2 was always hunting the same mobs in the same place.
I agree with the infinite dungeon idea, except don't just leave it to underground areas and make it universal so that we can at least enjoy the overall game.
Based on your dungeon idea, i think maybe some kind of daily deal where you can do a "daily quest"(for use of a better word) and be sent to fight in a dungeon or something. Just give it some purpose and reason?
Although 700 might have been an approximate number. The skills per class might vary between 25-30 or something.
I think each class will have the same number of skills. I doubt it'll be otherwise.
But isn't 700 the sum of the vanilla skills and skill rune variations? Because that means 6 variations for each skill, which should result in a total of 23-24 skills for each class.
Exactly what I was thinking while I was scrolling down, but you said it first.
24 is such a uggly number T_T Imo each class should have 25 skills.
About end game. Imo the old end game formula for game longevity is overdone. Not even mmorpgs are using sky high goals via farming (except FFXIV rofl)...
Imo the game don't even need a end game to work.
* 50+ side quests.
* Ridicolously difficult hell mod.
* PvP
* Achievements
* Really time consuming side quests. Stuff like get X rare scroll that open a gate to a hyper difficult dungeon. If you die there you are throwed out and gotta search for another X rare scrolls to try it again.
* They only need to keep us until the next exp come out.
* The game is design for casual / midcore players. If you want to play it 24/7 for 3 years you will problably eat all the game's content in the first week and pass all the other 155 ones farming end game bosses...
I think Hell mode in D3 is going to be quite different than Hell mode in D2. I think we are going to have to work extra hard to beat this game in it's entirety.
Well first off, Blizzard has specifically said they're working on end game content. But you raise some valid points, and some others I have issues with. Comments inline. I'll try to avoid the semantic debate on what "is" or "is not" "end game" content, but will fail because that's what this comes down to: Will we, or will we not have fresh, engaging content to experience after being level capped and thru Norm/Night/Hell core storyline?
Hell mode has to be playable, and beatable. Thus people will beat it. This doesn't solve the issue of what to do when you're done. It also brings up a decent side-topic: Should end-game content be accessible ONLY after you beat the last boss on HELL DIFFICULTY? Or does beating it on NORMAL give you access to NORMAL DIFFICULTY end game content? Thoughts?
Achievements won't give us palpable rewards other than bragging rights, or so says Blizzard. So it doesn't really apply broadly to those who want end game content that extends replayability beyond medial tasks in content you've already experienced.
* Really time consuming side quests. Stuff like get X rare scroll that open a gate to a hyper difficult dungeon. If you die there you are throwed out and gotta search for another X rare scrolls to try it again.
Now this is definitely a great idea to extend the content of the game for end-game characters!
* They only need to keep us until the next exp come out.
Ehhh.. People will definitely have exhausted all the norm/night/hell difficulty content LONG before any expansion comes out. I prefer to spend lots of time on my main, not level up tons of alts, so I will expect to have things to do once I'm level capped.
* The game is design for casual / midcore players. If you want to play it 24/7 for 3 years you will problably eat all the game's content in the first week and pass all the other 155 ones farming end game bosses...
I think this is a big misconception. Tons of hardcore RPG'ers will be playing this game, and expect to have their needs met. Just assuming a bulk majority of the playerbase will be weekend warriors, and balking at end-game development on that gross assumption is just the kind of mindset that can kill a game. Blizz does not have this opinion, and have stated in many different ways that hardcore players will be satisfied.
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
Hey Hey. Long time lurker, first time poster. If any of you have ever played Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, you would know about the turf war mini-game. When you open the city map during this mini-game you can see different color coded areas. Each color represents a different gang's turf. If an area of the map was flashing red it meant that your turf was being attacked by a rival gang. You have a limited amount of time to reach this contested area and then defend it from the gang.
I thought this idea could be translated to Diablo 3 for end-game. Keep in mind that if you are in the end-game stage you have basically explored and cleared out most of the available areas, since you must play through the game roughly three times. Once you are in the end-game stage, you can open your world map to view contested areas and dungeons. Since this game relies a lot on the randomness of things, these contested areas and dungeons will be in random locations and they will have random reasons for being contested. One example I can think of would take place in the Tristram Cathedral (although there can be many reasons why this particular place is contested, this is just one example). You have cleared the cathedral and killed the Skeleton King (at least three times by now). Seeing an opportunity to advance in the ranks of hell, a new boss has set-up a base of operations in the Tristram Cathedral. It is your job to defeat him and release the cathedral from the clutches of hell once more.
This one example I gave would allow the player to earn rewards for defeating this new threat on humanity and face any brand of monster not previously seen in the cathedral. This could also allow for new decor in the cathedral as well, every demon has its own sense of style! (Some prefer impaled victims, while others prefer drapery made from human flesh)
This system in general will add a whole new level of randomness to the game. It does not always have to involve a lengthy dungeon crawl either. If the player chooses instead to head to a contested wilderness area, they may just encounter that caravan under siege, which we have all been hearing so much about. All in all I think this could be one of many interesting end-game ideas. It would randomly give you that end-game boss run for loot or some other random event "Easter egg" that Blizzard is known for. I'm interested to see what you guys think.
This talk of end game sounds like the game is too easy.
I really do not enjoy looking for items when there's nothing to use them for (I do not care for PvP in case anyone asks). I'd rather there was some really hard portion of the game and I had to MF to get through to it.
And than the game is pretty much over because you beat the final hell boss AND you had the ultimate gear to do so already.
There's so much more to it D3 has to offer, the boss now has weaknesses and strength that makes gameplay interesting for us real adults mindset.
After the monsters are now tune into a perfect direction, for we have no strength what so ever to exploit them in mod land, I would much like to see something to be utilize well of the concept of randomness besides looting. Mechanical simple short story generator will be a reliable machine that matches dev team's ideal gameplay as in going with the story through gameplay.
Gameplay creating stories. As in expanding the idea of a shrine which suppose to twist our game pace to simple bite size stories.
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Obviously there will be the hardcore pvpers like myself who will spend countless hours in arena, and i can see the potential for a competitive ladder system in place to create some hard long goals to work towards.
But pve, what will we do? No longer is there this extremely long dedicated line of exp to grind to get to 99, as it will be capped at 60. And Blizzard have said that once you finish the game in all 3 difficulties you should reach the cap(roughly).
So once you have done that, you start MFing? But surely that cant be the end of the pve endgame! What do you think they would implement to keep us hooked?(ill be hooked on pvp either way).
With D2 in latter patches they released things like Dclone, and Ubers with items as reward for completing very hard tasks that were outside of the d2 storyline(as far as i'm aware). Do you think they will do something similar with d3? I believe there are 2 expansions coming but even still?
I was sorta just thinking in many MMO's(not that d3 is 1) there is raiding or massive guild fights over area's of the world that begin in a serious form once you hit the lvl cap. I'm wondering what will d3 have for us?
Thoughts?
Thanks Caniroth for the awesome sig!
I hope that they will have random (or organised :thumbsup: ) encounters for a weekend in a certain area. Something that requires more than one player to tackle so that folks'll group together to finish the event. I also think that there will be many many many alts made. many many many.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
With that said, PvE endgame in a game like Diablo is very tough. I feel that this is probably the biggest challenge they have in planning and designing this game. They know how long D2 has lasted and they want D3 to beat that. Ironically, I think with arena, gems & rune improving, and artisan upgrades, they have added enough to keep this game going for that long.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
Beyond that, I will say, I'm the type that prefers spending most of my time on my godly main. Others like having lots of alts, which is also cool. The difficulty, as Scyber mentioned, is how to keep players like me interested when my main is capped and geared. He's right when he says that Diablo is a specifically difficult genre to have end-game longevity.
The obvious paradigm is grinding out marginal upgrades by farming. But that alone is not a good recipe for replay value. The point I keep trying to sell is to have dynamic, random world events specifically tailored for end-game characters. Imagine how exciting it would be to join a game, only to get an in-game announcement that something unique is happening, and you've been called out to respond. There are many ideas along those lines in the link below.
But what else can we do? One thing we haven't discussed in detail is having an engaging end-game economy (or, if we have, I haven't seen the topic). In the early days of WoW I used to have mining/blacksmithing business. I would pay people a flat rate to grind me ores and mats, and I would either craft and sell recipes, or sell materials at a mark-up if the prices were right. I find that particularly fun, and I think it fits the vision of D3 very well, given Blizz's statements that they want a strong, balanced economy, and they want gold to hold value.
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/23007-end-game-event-ideas/
-Thomas Jefferson
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Honestly, why is this site so damn addicting? I must refresh about a hundred times a day. I'm ashamed this is only my first post.
Great job guys!!!
Hmmm... As I picture this in my head it may very well feel strange not to be gaining XP or working towards the next level even when looking for gear. I guess my hope is that they replace the missing feeling with something much more rewarding. Say, instead of watching your XP go up to get that next level,(in my opinion not very rewarding for the amount of time put in at high levels) now there is a Kill counter or something tied with a # of kills achievement that has multiple levels and various rewards. I think that leaves much more room for exciting end game play and still gives you satisfaction for each kill and a replacement for that leveling feeling with the rewards.
Basically the achievement system allows virtually endless possibilities of cool things to work towards at end game. There has to be a level cap somewhere and I do agree at 99 the level gain is not as rewarding. Yes you do get more skill points but how much does it really improve the skill. With only 60 levels each skill point you gain is that much more awesome. That feeling you get when you level should hopefully be magnified due to the noticeable improvement in your character when you get it. Just some thoughts. Can't wait to see what they come out with.
The entirety of Hell mode should be one big tactical achievement to finish. You need to use your skills wisely. You need to watch your allies wisely. It should all be about teamwork (unless you play solo). Communication and strategy should play a big part in finishing the game. Every encounter has to be played with good decisions.
But I don't think that will be the case, so I hope they have these endgame modes to offer!
- The Endless Dungeon. Multiple types (desert, cave, tomb, etc.) that increase with difficulty the further down you go. However, drops will slightly increase each level as well. So to get really great items, you have to earn it.
- The Bounty Hunter. An NPC in each act will tell you he needs the head/heart/brain or whatever of some monster, and you have to go out and find it. Returning the bounty will give great rewards, but at great cost. The spawned monster will resemble the toughness of Uber Diablo. Usually spawns with minions. So it would be tougher to bring the monster down. And remember - there isn't any Smite or Life Tap in Diablo III!
I guess you don't care about items either?
Many of which aren't just "+X to coolness" factor either. Some builds absolutely depend upon specific unique configurations to be even viable in hell.
If you want to play those builds, you gotta grind the item. And there aren't too many ways to do that in one lifetime, when hammerdin is the only thing that can solo-8 certain bosses.
Worst thing I hated about D2 was always hunting the same mobs in the same place.
I agree with the infinite dungeon idea, except don't just leave it to underground areas and make it universal so that we can at least enjoy the overall game.
Thanks Caniroth for the awesome sig!
Its not 5x5x28 = 700
Its 5x6x23.3 = 700
About end game. Imo the old end game formula for game longevity is overdone. Not even mmorpgs are using sky high goals via farming (except FFXIV rofl)...
Imo the game don't even need a end game to work.
* 50+ side quests.
* Ridicolously difficult hell mod.
* PvP
* Achievements
* Really time consuming side quests. Stuff like get X rare scroll that open a gate to a hyper difficult dungeon. If you die there you are throwed out and gotta search for another X rare scrolls to try it again.
* They only need to keep us until the next exp come out.
* The game is design for casual / midcore players. If you want to play it 24/7 for 3 years you will problably eat all the game's content in the first week and pass all the other 155 ones farming end game bosses...
And I really hope I'm right.
These are random, and definitely can extend the life of the game past beating end boss. How is it not "end game?"
Hell mode has to be playable, and beatable. Thus people will beat it. This doesn't solve the issue of what to do when you're done. It also brings up a decent side-topic: Should end-game content be accessible ONLY after you beat the last boss on HELL DIFFICULTY? Or does beating it on NORMAL give you access to NORMAL DIFFICULTY end game content? Thoughts?
Definitely agree.
Achievements won't give us palpable rewards other than bragging rights, or so says Blizzard. So it doesn't really apply broadly to those who want end game content that extends replayability beyond medial tasks in content you've already experienced.
Now this is definitely a great idea to extend the content of the game for end-game characters!
Ehhh.. People will definitely have exhausted all the norm/night/hell difficulty content LONG before any expansion comes out. I prefer to spend lots of time on my main, not level up tons of alts, so I will expect to have things to do once I'm level capped.
I think this is a big misconception. Tons of hardcore RPG'ers will be playing this game, and expect to have their needs met. Just assuming a bulk majority of the playerbase will be weekend warriors, and balking at end-game development on that gross assumption is just the kind of mindset that can kill a game. Blizz does not have this opinion, and have stated in many different ways that hardcore players will be satisfied.
-Thomas Jefferson
I thought this idea could be translated to Diablo 3 for end-game. Keep in mind that if you are in the end-game stage you have basically explored and cleared out most of the available areas, since you must play through the game roughly three times. Once you are in the end-game stage, you can open your world map to view contested areas and dungeons. Since this game relies a lot on the randomness of things, these contested areas and dungeons will be in random locations and they will have random reasons for being contested. One example I can think of would take place in the Tristram Cathedral (although there can be many reasons why this particular place is contested, this is just one example). You have cleared the cathedral and killed the Skeleton King (at least three times by now). Seeing an opportunity to advance in the ranks of hell, a new boss has set-up a base of operations in the Tristram Cathedral. It is your job to defeat him and release the cathedral from the clutches of hell once more.
This one example I gave would allow the player to earn rewards for defeating this new threat on humanity and face any brand of monster not previously seen in the cathedral. This could also allow for new decor in the cathedral as well, every demon has its own sense of style! (Some prefer impaled victims, while others prefer drapery made from human flesh)
This system in general will add a whole new level of randomness to the game. It does not always have to involve a lengthy dungeon crawl either. If the player chooses instead to head to a contested wilderness area, they may just encounter that caravan under siege, which we have all been hearing so much about. All in all I think this could be one of many interesting end-game ideas. It would randomly give you that end-game boss run for loot or some other random event "Easter egg" that Blizzard is known for. I'm interested to see what you guys think.
So far the demons are all seems to be having interesting encounter deals. There go I have no problem with monster mechanics in D3.
I really do not enjoy looking for items when there's nothing to use them for (I do not care for PvP in case anyone asks). I'd rather there was some really hard portion of the game and I had to MF to get through to it.
There's so much more to it D3 has to offer, the boss now has weaknesses and strength that makes gameplay interesting for us real adults mindset.
After the monsters are now tune into a perfect direction, for we have no strength what so ever to exploit them in mod land, I would much like to see something to be utilize well of the concept of randomness besides looting. Mechanical simple short story generator will be a reliable machine that matches dev team's ideal gameplay as in going with the story through gameplay.
Gameplay creating stories. As in expanding the idea of a shrine which suppose to twist our game pace to simple bite size stories.