Hello guys, first time poster here.
As the title goes, sorry to bring up a subject that might have already been discussed like...since forever.
I have recently restarted playing Diablo RoS, going for a Barb WW, and despite looking everywhere on the interwebs there's a couple of questions still bugging me.
So, the issue is, what is the best (or should I just say a BETTER choice) when picking a weapon for a WW Barb?
I know, read everywhere it's highly situational and build-dependant (read somewhere attack speed is vital in WW barbar-ing, right?).
In my case, and that's where I'd need the help of you big brainz, the situation is the following
2 1-handed legendary weapons (currently my choice)
2700 dps each (good rolls)
Already socketed with crit dmg gems
OR
Both Bul Kathos swords
2200ish dps each (for the life of me I can't get anything better, neither from kadala nor from Kanai's cube :|)
NO socket (so, gonna have to lose one stat)
OR
4100 2 handed legendary axe (dropped yesterday from a random mob)
already equipped with socket + crit damage gem
OR (and this is what bugs me the most, as I've seen all top ladder barbarians leaning towards this choice)
IK Boulder Breaker
3300ish dps (again, can't get anything better in ANY way)
What I'd like to understand, is high dps always preferable when compared to set bonuses in weapons?
And again, and please help me with this, what is an ACCEPTABLE dps in a weapon so that I could start even considering taking off two non-set legendaries?
Like...what kind of dps should I have on a pair of Bul Kathos in order to even start considering to replace my 2 insane 1-handers?
Already did, this forum and several others, couldn't find a 100% satisfactory explanation (even though I admit there might be somewhere and I just couldn't find it).
Plus, I wanted some specific advice about my specific case.
That's why I opened the thread.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
Strange choice of skills, gotta say. WW and a primary? why? WW builds run 100% uptime on WW, which means you would never be using Frenzy. Obviously, you can play the game however you want to, I just don't see how running WW and Frenzy together is going to work at all (since you can't use both at the same time). As far as efficiency goes, your build is lacking in many areas, but I'll assume you are not gearing towards meta, so whatever.
Regarding atk spd on WW, it is absolutely essential as it increases tick frequency, which affects both DPS and fury cost. As far as (specifically) legendary weapons for a WW barb, there are none which directly support the skill. You can go for items with +% ele dmg, or proc on hit effects, but keep in mind that WW has a fairly low proc coefficient. You may wish to opt for a 2H WW barb (I wouldn't but feel free to do what you want), as 2H has a much higher dmg roll than any 1H. What you need to be aware of though, is that 2H has significantly slower APS than 1H, and especially dual wield (which is an extra +15% APS). In other words, each WW tick will deal more dmg, but ticks will occur less frequently. ideally you need to be running pain enhancer to have any chance of making up the lost atk spd, otherwise your dmg is going to suck big time.
@ IKBB: There is no reason to use this unless you are running CotA and/or additional IK set pieces (usually for the 4pc).
An important note on weapon comparisons. Never use the DPS value stated on the weapon as an indication of anything at all; you only want to be concerned with the actual APS and specific damage range of the weapons. Also, you don't want your weapons to roll with sockets by default, because R gift will give you a socket for free (and cannot be used on a weapon which is already socketed).
When crafting through Cube, you should make sure to use the correct base item, to maximise your chance of rolling the correct legendary/set piece. In this case, that means using a crafted rare 1H/2H Mighty Weapon; this will limit the pools of possible items to 8/6.
"What I'd like to understand, is high dps always preferable when compared to set bonuses in weapons?"
There are 2 sets which are worth considering.
1) BK which gives +30% APS and move speed (only active during WW) and 10 fury/sec
2) Paired Blades which gives +6% APS, dmg and armor for 5 secs after spending primary resource (max stacks = 5, for +30%).
When talking 1H vs 2H, you need to look at both dmg range and APS. In this example, Keep in mind that WW scales off of APS (higher APS = higher tick frequency = higher DPS). A 2H will give you 0.90 - 1.10 APS (flail and daibo not included, for obvious reasons) with about 40% more dmg than a 1H (which has APS of 1.20 - 1.50). Meanwhile, these sets will give you +15% APS (from dual wield) and another +30% APS from the set bonus. If you consider only WW dmg, then the additional ~0.30 (Mighty Weapon) OR ~0.40 (Sword) weapon APS together with the extra +45% APS bonus is easily going to outweigh the +40% dmg bonus from the 2H. In the case of Paired Blades, there is even an additional +30% damage bonus, which almost covers the difference in base dmg on its own. So basically, 2H is never worth using unless it has an extremely good leg affix, is required for a set, or provides massive skill dmg bonus (i.e. +200% EQ dmg).
Which choice is better depends on your fury upkeep. Based on your provided build, I would definitely say BK , since your passives are all wrong for maintaining fury (and as a result, berserker rage is exactly the wrong passive for you to choose, as it will have nearly 0% uptime).
Strange choice of skills, gotta say. WW and a primary? why?
Well, as you've surely noticed I am neither a professional nor a theorycrafter
I chose this combination as I still have fury generation issues (that's also why I chose WW - Windshear).
Basically, as I cannot have 100% fury all the time I resort to Frenzy whenever I need to, especially against Rift Guardians or single bosses.
Clearly, and no need to point that out, I am doing something completely wrong here
As far as efficiency goes, your build is lacking in many areas
I am seriously aware of that, I tried finding good hints on how to modify and improve my build cutting out what is unnecessary, and I try and see how I feel about possible changes.
An important note on weapon comparisons. Never use the DPS value stated on the weapon as an indication of anything at all; you only want to be concerned with the actual APS and specific damage range of the weapons. Also, you don't want your weapons to roll with sockets by default, because R gift will give you a socket for free (and cannot be used on a weapon which is already socketed).
I knew that, I'm still having a hard time though when it comes down to comparing weapons.
Thanks again to your explanation, I understood the flaw in my way of looking at the issue.
Based on your provided build, I would definitely say BK , since your passives are all wrong for maintaining fury (and as a result, berserker rage is exactly the wrong passive for you to choose, as it will have nearly 0% uptime).
I chose my passives especially with the main purpose to achieve a decent dps + some survivability.
Plus, I have Rampage passive granted by my Hellfire Amulet.
Basically, as far as fury generation goes I only rely on the Windshear rune, which works out pretty decently in Torment 8 Rifts (can handle them with no big issues).
Thanks again, and feel free to add more comments/critics (constructive, if possible )
I would just say that crafting ancient Bul-Kathos weapons in cube is easy. Make one handed rare mighty weapons and upgrade them until you get good ones. Or use legendary re-rolling in cube.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
I would just say that crafting ancient Bul-Kathos weapons in cube is easy. Make one handed rare mighty weapons and upgrade them until you get good ones. Or use legendary re-rolling in cube.
I intended on doing that, but had a doubt. When we say "rerolling legendaries", does that mean it also rerolls set armors/weapons? I know it's friggin' noobish but...do sets count as legendaries, in these terms?
Thank you again everyone
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
You can use that method to re roll any legendary or set item. However, you will need 5 of each bounty material + 50 forgotten souls per roll. Also, the chance of getting ancient item in cube is 10%.
BTW, I would say that WW is not bad set to start learning about barbs, but I find it very lazy one and learning disability friendly. That said, you won't learn much using it, nor you'll have significant power. I would advise you to try out all sets we have on our disposal in 2.4.1, you might like some of these even better.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
BTW, I would say that WW is not bad set to start learning about barbs, but I find it very lazy one and learning disability friendly.
Definitely agreeing on that decided to go for a WW Barb just when I restarted playing, with the clear aim of switching to more interesting and challening (and maybe even rewarding) specs...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
I actually quite like WW, although I tend to focus on the Hurricane rune for the epic pulls. I'm toying around with a LoN WW build atm. It needs decent paragon to get anything done (since I need some para into vit for HPz), but that's fine as it's LoN anyhow (meaning full ancient, with appropriate stat rolls). I figured I'd make it more interesting by setting it up like a WotHF Monk (uses high APS to proc on hit), as It runs rimeheart and frostburn. The rest of the dmg comes from avalanche and earthquake which are my source of fury. The build is pure cold, to make best use of +% ele and frostburn. It gets decent dmg reduction from aquila, mantle and LoN (and APDs can be cubed to synergise with the build). As for rings, there are plenty of options, including skull grasp, zodiac, CoE, band of might, overwhelming desire or an immunity ammy.
As you can imagine, the dmg is unlikely to contend with any meta build, but I like being able to provide some level of support in a non-meta group (pull, debuff, toughness buff and CC), while still providing some measure of DPS. The build also performs as efficiently in solo as it does in group (in that it does not rely on other players to sustain its dmg buffs/toughness buffs/healing/pulls/CC/resource management/etc.). In contrast to this, a pure zDPS barb works great in group, but is literally useless in solo.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello guys, first time poster here.
As the title goes, sorry to bring up a subject that might have already been discussed like...since forever.
I have recently restarted playing Diablo RoS, going for a Barb WW, and despite looking everywhere on the interwebs there's a couple of questions still bugging me.
So, the issue is, what is the best (or should I just say a BETTER choice) when picking a weapon for a WW Barb?
I know, read everywhere it's highly situational and build-dependant (read somewhere attack speed is vital in WW barbar-ing, right?).
In my case, and that's where I'd need the help of you big brainz, the situation is the following
2 1-handed legendary weapons (currently my choice)
2700 dps each (good rolls)
Already socketed with crit dmg gems
OR
Both Bul Kathos swords
2200ish dps each (for the life of me I can't get anything better, neither from kadala nor from Kanai's cube :|)
NO socket (so, gonna have to lose one stat)
OR
4100 2 handed legendary axe (dropped yesterday from a random mob)
already equipped with socket + crit damage gem
OR (and this is what bugs me the most, as I've seen all top ladder barbarians leaning towards this choice)
IK Boulder Breaker
3300ish dps (again, can't get anything better in ANY way)
What I'd like to understand, is high dps always preferable when compared to set bonuses in weapons?
And again, and please help me with this, what is an ACCEPTABLE dps in a weapon so that I could start even considering taking off two non-set legendaries?
Like...what kind of dps should I have on a pair of Bul Kathos in order to even start considering to replace my 2 insane 1-handers?
For a rough idead about my build, here's the link
http://www.diablofans.com/builds/79829-kjades-barb-ww
Thanks again for the help, and a bonus thanks for the patience.
Cheers
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
Already did, this forum and several others, couldn't find a 100% satisfactory explanation (even though I admit there might be somewhere and I just couldn't find it).
Plus, I wanted some specific advice about my specific case.
That's why I opened the thread.
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
Strange choice of skills, gotta say. WW and a primary? why? WW builds run 100% uptime on WW, which means you would never be using Frenzy. Obviously, you can play the game however you want to, I just don't see how running WW and Frenzy together is going to work at all (since you can't use both at the same time). As far as efficiency goes, your build is lacking in many areas, but I'll assume you are not gearing towards meta, so whatever.
Regarding atk spd on WW, it is absolutely essential as it increases tick frequency, which affects both DPS and fury cost. As far as (specifically) legendary weapons for a WW barb, there are none which directly support the skill. You can go for items with +% ele dmg, or proc on hit effects, but keep in mind that WW has a fairly low proc coefficient. You may wish to opt for a 2H WW barb (I wouldn't but feel free to do what you want), as 2H has a much higher dmg roll than any 1H. What you need to be aware of though, is that 2H has significantly slower APS than 1H, and especially dual wield (which is an extra +15% APS). In other words, each WW tick will deal more dmg, but ticks will occur less frequently. ideally you need to be running pain enhancer to have any chance of making up the lost atk spd, otherwise your dmg is going to suck big time.
@ IKBB: There is no reason to use this unless you are running CotA and/or additional IK set pieces (usually for the 4pc).
An important note on weapon comparisons. Never use the DPS value stated on the weapon as an indication of anything at all; you only want to be concerned with the actual APS and specific damage range of the weapons. Also, you don't want your weapons to roll with sockets by default, because R gift will give you a socket for free (and cannot be used on a weapon which is already socketed).
When crafting through Cube, you should make sure to use the correct base item, to maximise your chance of rolling the correct legendary/set piece. In this case, that means using a crafted rare 1H/2H Mighty Weapon; this will limit the pools of possible items to 8/6.
"What I'd like to understand, is high dps always preferable when compared to set bonuses in weapons?"
There are 2 sets which are worth considering.
1) BK which gives +30% APS and move speed (only active during WW) and 10 fury/sec
2) Paired Blades which gives +6% APS, dmg and armor for 5 secs after spending primary resource (max stacks = 5, for +30%).
When talking 1H vs 2H, you need to look at both dmg range and APS. In this example, Keep in mind that WW scales off of APS (higher APS = higher tick frequency = higher DPS). A 2H will give you 0.90 - 1.10 APS (flail and daibo not included, for obvious reasons) with about 40% more dmg than a 1H (which has APS of 1.20 - 1.50). Meanwhile, these sets will give you +15% APS (from dual wield) and another +30% APS from the set bonus. If you consider only WW dmg, then the additional ~0.30 (Mighty Weapon) OR ~0.40 (Sword) weapon APS together with the extra +45% APS bonus is easily going to outweigh the +40% dmg bonus from the 2H. In the case of Paired Blades, there is even an additional +30% damage bonus, which almost covers the difference in base dmg on its own. So basically, 2H is never worth using unless it has an extremely good leg affix, is required for a set, or provides massive skill dmg bonus (i.e. +200% EQ dmg).
Which choice is better depends on your fury upkeep. Based on your provided build, I would definitely say BK , since your passives are all wrong for maintaining fury (and as a result, berserker rage is exactly the wrong passive for you to choose, as it will have nearly 0% uptime).
@PsykStrike
Hello, and thanks indeed for spending some of your time on my hopeless case
Your answer is definitely what I've been looking for.
Well, as you've surely noticed I am neither a professional nor a theorycrafter
I chose this combination as I still have fury generation issues (that's also why I chose WW - Windshear).
Basically, as I cannot have 100% fury all the time I resort to Frenzy whenever I need to, especially against Rift Guardians or single bosses.
Clearly, and no need to point that out, I am doing something completely wrong here
I am seriously aware of that, I tried finding good hints on how to modify and improve my build cutting out what is unnecessary, and I try and see how I feel about possible changes.
Still a long way to go though, I guess.
I knew that, I'm still having a hard time though when it comes down to comparing weapons.
Thanks again to your explanation, I understood the flaw in my way of looking at the issue.
I chose my passives especially with the main purpose to achieve a decent dps + some survivability.
Plus, I have Rampage passive granted by my Hellfire Amulet.
Basically, as far as fury generation goes I only rely on the Windshear rune, which works out pretty decently in Torment 8 Rifts (can handle them with no big issues).
Thanks again, and feel free to add more comments/critics (constructive, if possible )
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
Bull Kathos 2pc set gives much dps but less toughness.
IK4/WW6 gives more toughness but less damage.
Overall the build above is pretty solid, but i would suggest my build i guess:
WHIRLWIND T13 "SPEED KING"
If you have fury problems use unforgiving and weapon master.
http://www.angryroleplayer.com/
http://www.youtube.com/c/angryroleplayer
https://www.diablofans.com/builds/105329-2-6-7-rend-bleed-whirlwind-gr130
https://www.diablofans.com/builds/105301-2-6-7-fist-of-the-heavens-aegis-of-valor-gr110
I would just say that crafting ancient Bul-Kathos weapons in cube is easy. Make one handed rare mighty weapons and upgrade them until you get good ones. Or use legendary re-rolling in cube.
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
I would like to thank all for the good advice, gonna try out everything I learnt today.
I intended on doing that, but had a doubt. When we say "rerolling legendaries", does that mean it also rerolls set armors/weapons? I know it's friggin' noobish but...do sets count as legendaries, in these terms?Thank you again everyone
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
You can use that method to re roll any legendary or set item. However, you will need 5 of each bounty material + 50 forgotten souls per roll. Also, the chance of getting ancient item in cube is 10%.
BTW, I would say that WW is not bad set to start learning about barbs, but I find it very lazy one and learning disability friendly. That said, you won't learn much using it, nor you'll have significant power. I would advise you to try out all sets we have on our disposal in 2.4.1, you might like some of these even better.
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
Definitely agreeing on that decided to go for a WW Barb just when I restarted playing, with the clear aim of switching to more interesting and challening (and maybe even rewarding) specs...
...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...
I love ww specifically because it's super lazy.
http://www.angryroleplayer.com/
http://www.youtube.com/c/angryroleplayer
https://www.diablofans.com/builds/105329-2-6-7-rend-bleed-whirlwind-gr130
https://www.diablofans.com/builds/105301-2-6-7-fist-of-the-heavens-aegis-of-valor-gr110
WW is terrible
I actually quite like WW, although I tend to focus on the Hurricane rune for the epic pulls. I'm toying around with a LoN WW build atm. It needs decent paragon to get anything done (since I need some para into vit for HPz), but that's fine as it's LoN anyhow (meaning full ancient, with appropriate stat rolls). I figured I'd make it more interesting by setting it up like a WotHF Monk (uses high APS to proc on hit), as It runs rimeheart and frostburn. The rest of the dmg comes from avalanche and earthquake which are my source of fury. The build is pure cold, to make best use of +% ele and frostburn. It gets decent dmg reduction from aquila, mantle and LoN (and APDs can be cubed to synergise with the build). As for rings, there are plenty of options, including skull grasp, zodiac, CoE, band of might, overwhelming desire or an immunity ammy.
As you can imagine, the dmg is unlikely to contend with any meta build, but I like being able to provide some level of support in a non-meta group (pull, debuff, toughness buff and CC), while still providing some measure of DPS. The build also performs as efficiently in solo as it does in group (in that it does not rely on other players to sustain its dmg buffs/toughness buffs/healing/pulls/CC/resource management/etc.). In contrast to this, a pure zDPS barb works great in group, but is literally useless in solo.