This is like a debate between high school debate squad and university professors.
It's Fun=Well then if I find hacking fun, you won't complain if I hack your account, delete your chars, and take all your items? I mean it's all for fun right?
Competitive= No, competitive is PvP. This is the Minnesota Vikings Professional vs. the south Minneapolis junior varsity girls badminton club. Get real, this is not competition, this is about skilless losers that the ONLY way they can kill someone is if there is enough of a level difference. Your arguments on this is sadly pathetic...you lose the whole argument right here. You want competition, go do Pvp or play a FPS game.
It's Part of Diablo= No, cooperative play was part and core of Diablo. It is the reason we have the party system, shared expereience, players that synergize. Also, if some of you newbies knew anything, you would have known they planned a while ago on changing the whole method of hostile. Only reason this was never patched was because the old team left, and the new team became bogged down having to re-write the whole game which took more time, and never allowed them to fully work on a new patch as they intended. By 2006 the idea was dropped because the plan then was to simply get D3 out and patch D2 only when necessary.
Even if this argument was bought, which it isn't, then this would indicated D2 to be a complete failure has the vast majority of players DO not participate in this.
Well Bill Roper...=Would this be the same people that designed a game so poorly, with so much imbalance and flaws that even to today it is a wreck of code? The same people that made a game so poorly that it took hackers almost NO effort to make their own items and bring them from single player into closed Battle.net. The same team that had the flawed logic that by selling of one of the rarest items would produce a nice cool event called Dclone, when in fact it takes a 5 year old 2 seconds to realize this merely gives MORE incentive to dupe. We could go on now couldn't we, but you all get the point, D2 was a mess of a design
Which is a nice story for single play, but please check the message Blizzard gives you when you connect to Bnet, it says something like "online your gameplay experience can change".
Your reading comprehension needs work. The argument I responded to was that removing PK violates the story of the game. I pointed out that PvP in general doesn't even make any sense with respect to the storyline of the game.
This reminds me of the "homosexuality is bad because it's not natural" -> "but it does occur in nature" -> "don't argue it's okay just because it occurs in nature" line of argument. All I did was point out how silly it is to argue for griefing by pretending it's a part of the story of the game. That part was not an argument against griefing, just a refutation of his argument.
If all your goal is to beat hell baal and say you did it on Bnet, you're free to playing password games, basically online single player. As soon as you ask for social interaction be ready to accept both kinds, not only the positive, life isn't full of rainbows and flowers.
Yawn. Non-sequitur.
Perhaps it isn't for you? If you don't feel yourself in the argument perhaps it isn't addressed to you.
It's still irrelevant anyway. *shrugs*
Actually it's completely within his right to tell you what he thinks is real pvp. Perhaps it isn't the same for you, but that's an entirely different argument.
Sure he can tell me. But his decision on that subject is meaningless--PvP is defined as players fighting each other, period. There's no point in anyone adding their own invented distinctions to the term.
What he is saying is he doesn't want rules imposed to him, if there are rules it's only those he agreed to.
So, you're basically showing me exactly how he's a tremendous hypocrite?
Let's see, he doesn't want a rule imposed on him, only those he agreed to. And yet he's arguing in favor of a rule that WOULD be imposed on people who didn't want it, and would result in PvP combat they DIDN'T agree to. Interesting.
Maybe you ought to keep it to yourself the next time you want to 'defend' someone else--what you actually ended up doing was illustrating exactly how full of crap his stance is.
If he team duels it means he agreed to said rule, nobody imposed it on him.
So why is he entitled to having no unwanted rules imposed on him, but all the people who don't want to be griefed have to go to the back of the bus? Doesn't that seem a little arrogant to you?
It's a strawman since you're drawing relations to modern life, Diablo is in a medieval time at best, may I point you to human medieval history. Rules weren't quite the same as they are now.
Again, I will point out that using the story/setting of the game itself is nothing but poison to your own arguments; in the setting of Diablo 2, there would be practically no PvP whatsoever--the player characters are supposed to be heroes, remember? Their ultimate goal is to save Sanctuary, not rob other would-be heroes of their gold or lives.
Anti-pk people only have strawman arguments, sad but true.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Distruptive to who? It's not distruptive to me, regardless if I'm the hunter or the hunted.
Unless you are sitting in a game WAITING for someone to show up to grief you (and if you're dong that, seriously, what's wrong with you?), it is disruptive. Whatever one was doing before the griefer came in and hostiled you becomes...wait for it...disrupted by their unprovoked attack.
What you claim as fact is actually an opinion. Try again.
lol
Many is debatable also people dying of lag or other issues cause grief, doesn't mean we need to remove Hardcore.
1. Don't equivocate "grief". You know exactly what I mean by "griefing".
2. But Blizzard does try to ameliorate things like lag.
Just because it never occurred to you means nothing. It doesn't change anything. Some people don't like trading and it doesn't occur to them to go trade in trade games, should we remove trade?
That part wasn't an argument for/against anything, goofball. I was just stating something about myself there.
Regardless of all the arguements being made by either side the fact remains this:
Diablo is and was nothing without its community, and its community started as pking / pvping people, and it better damn well keep going that route.
Take Diablo 1 for instance, I got the game the summer it came out so it was about 4 months old and know what everyone was doing? They were killing eachother! Why? Because thats what Diablo is really all about. It never was about pve or any of that pussy stuff, it is all about a good story line and then get to the real stuff and kill eachother.
Look at Diablo 2, how many people you see make pve characters? How many people do you see not hostile and kill people? Pk and PvP are ESSENTIAL parts of any Diablo game.
The people crying about PK shouldn't play Diablo, this is a mature game that is made by the community and if you take away the PK the community of people from Diablo 1 and 2 are gonna verbally ass ram you so bad you will think you are getting violated even when they can't because you were to scared they would kill you. So regardless if you wanna cry about PK and want it out, you are gonna get grieved, you are gonna get violated, you are gonna get pushed from this game because you simply do not fit the game that is Diablo.
You go on thinking a company is going to cater to attitudes like these. I'll still be here to laugh when Diablo 3 is released and you are shocked, shocked that they didn't take your ideas as gospel and ignore everyone else.
OMG, BLIZRAD U R FAGS AN I HOPE U DIE FOR KILLING DIABLO!1 U HAVE RIUND EVRYTHNG TAHT MAKES DIS GAEM GREET ND FUN.
/satire
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's time to welcome the other 80% of the color wheel to a Diablo game.
People who havn't ever played HC will not ever be able to accept the true appreciation and respect that the HC community feels towards PK'ing and the "one chance only" gameplay style. Besides this, a large part of HC Bnet did create PK'ers, PKK'ers and had alot of fun with it, these people will be thoroughly dissappointed if PK'ing is removed.
The big deal - the true argument for removing PK'ing? There is none. Stop with all the carebaring, DIII will be rated M? I think a "M rated" audiance will be able to deal with this, without their lives loosing large chunks of mental and phsycological wellness.
It's not about ratings, it's about a good gameplay experience.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's time to welcome the other 80% of the color wheel to a Diablo game.
Take Diablo 1 for instance, I got the game the summer it came out so it was about 4 months old and know what everyone was doing? They were killing eachother! Why? Because thats what Diablo is really all about. It never was about pve or any of that pussy stuff, it is all about a good story line and then get to the real stuff and kill eachother.
Look at Diablo 2, how many people you see make pve characters? How many people do you see not hostile and kill people? Pk and PvP are ESSENTIAL parts of any Diablo game.
The people crying about PK shouldn't play Diablo, this is a mature game that is made by the community and if you take away the PK the community of people from Diablo 1 and 2 are gonna verbally ass ram you so bad you will think you are getting violated even when they can't because you were to scared they would kill you. So regardless if you wanna cry about PK and want it out, you are gonna get grieved, you are gonna get violated, you are gonna get pushed from this game because you simply do not fit the game that is Diablo
Of course you see a lot of people PKing on Bnet because many of the people who don't like PKing stopped playing on the realms out of frustration. It doesn't prove that the PK community is larger (or smaller) than the non-PK community. All it proves is that the PKers were given the power to muscle out the non-PKers.
This is my last post on the topic and likely on these forums. The moderation here seems fickle at best since a lot of these posts are nothing but flames/insults and they are allowed to stay. Many people posting in these topics do nothing but flame/insult and they are not even temporarily banned. Add this to the fact that all the anti-PK arguments boil down to "PKing was intended to be in the game, therefoe it SHOULD be in the game" and "Your argument that your fun is ruined is invalid but my argument that is exactly the same only for me is perfectly valid."
Not to mention that most of my posts go unnoticed even when I put a lot of effort into them. Either that or they are selectively quoted so as to be rendered meaningless. Have fun guys, good luck to the anti-PKers, and don't get too stressed out, it's not worth it.
Of course you see a lot of people PKing on Bnet because many of the people who don't like PKing stopped playing on the realms out of frustration. It doesn't prove that the PK community is larger (or smaller) than the non-PK community. All it proves is that the PKers were given the power to muscle out the non-PKers.
This is my last post on the topic and likely on these forums. The moderation here seems fickle at best since a lot of these posts are nothing but flames/insults and they are allowed to stay. Many people posting in these topics do nothing but flame/insult and they are not even temporarily banned. Add this to the fact that all the anti-PK arguments boil down to "PKing was intended to be in the game, therefoe it SHOULD be in the game" and "Your argument that your fun is ruined is invalid but my argument that is exactly the same only for me is perfectly valid."
Not to mention that most of my posts go unnoticed even when I put a lot of effort into them. Either that or they are selectively quoted so as to be rendered meaningless. Have fun guys, good luck to the anti-PKers, and don't get too stressed out, it's not worth it.
Another good soul lost to the mindless Griefers.
Good night, sweet prince, may you grace us in our dreams.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's time to welcome the other 80% of the color wheel to a Diablo game.
Good night, sweet prince, may you grace us in our dreams.
Thanks for your concern But realistically I'll probably just continue to post over at diii.net, where the flaming is not tolerated at all so people are forced to either have meaningful discussion or just not post.
And yes, I realize that this is a post after I made my "last post" feel free to laugh, etc.
PvM is nothing special or favored agaisnt PK or PvP.
Please:
1. You can play your whole Diablo 'career' without ever engaging another player. But you can't even reach the level at which PvP is ALLOWED without doing at least some PvM (and to be really competitive in PvP, you have to do a LOT of PvM). In other words, everyone does PvM, at least for a while, but not everyone does PvP.
2. You don't get any experience for killing other players. That by itself is a BIG 'special or favored' point on the PvM side. Diablo 2 rewards PvM, but not PvP (unless you consider an inventory full of ears a reward).
Nobody is imposing anything, if people don't want to be PKed they have a variety of choice at their disposal, what you are suggestion if removing all of ours.
And how many of those choices allow them to continue playing cooperatively and make friends in the game without having to deal with a griefer's intrusion?
NO, they are free to leave and play in passworded games wher they won't be griefed. They made a public game so they accept the social interation, whichever way that swings.
Absurd suggestions like "play in passworded games" destroy the ability to make friends and otherwise meet new people to team up with. You're basically saying that players should have to pay some kind of penalty for wanting to play cooperatively online (and forbid with people you didn't already know!). When you really get down to it, the absurdity of the argument shines through. Why should PvM players be penalized when their games aren't bothering anyone else? You can't compare disallowing griefing to that because griefing disrupts others, while cooperative PvM play does not.
That can very well depend on your definition of hero, ever heard of an anti-hero? Not all heroes are light and good and kind.
You're going off on a tangent. All of the players you can choose from in Diablo 2 have saving Sanctuary as their ultimate goal--if they didn't, you'd be able to 'win' the game in different ways with different classes. But no, regardless of who you choose, your goals are always the same--defeat the Prime Evils. They all have, storyline-wise, much better things to do than ambush other would-be heroes, killing them and stealing their money. They're supposed to be heroes, not muggers.
Have you ever played HC? lvl 18, 24, 36 twinks could easily take out lvl 60, 70, 80 chars. Not exactly skilless losers..
Yes, it takes unmeasurable skill to twink a low-level character, giving them all the best stuff they can use with all of the 'dirty work' done by a high-level character.
Please see passworded games and looking for parties in channels.
What do you know!? A same reused argument that's in every other post by a PK.
This is completely getting us somewhere. I'm sure Blizzard wants everyone to have to play passworded games or get griefed. Sounds like a awesome marketing strategy.
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
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It's Fun=Well then if I find hacking fun, you won't complain if I hack your account, delete your chars, and take all your items? I mean it's all for fun right?
Competitive= No, competitive is PvP. This is the Minnesota Vikings Professional vs. the south Minneapolis junior varsity girls badminton club. Get real, this is not competition, this is about skilless losers that the ONLY way they can kill someone is if there is enough of a level difference. Your arguments on this is sadly pathetic...you lose the whole argument right here. You want competition, go do Pvp or play a FPS game.
It's Part of Diablo= No, cooperative play was part and core of Diablo. It is the reason we have the party system, shared expereience, players that synergize. Also, if some of you newbies knew anything, you would have known they planned a while ago on changing the whole method of hostile. Only reason this was never patched was because the old team left, and the new team became bogged down having to re-write the whole game which took more time, and never allowed them to fully work on a new patch as they intended. By 2006 the idea was dropped because the plan then was to simply get D3 out and patch D2 only when necessary.
Even if this argument was bought, which it isn't, then this would indicated D2 to be a complete failure has the vast majority of players DO not participate in this.
Well Bill Roper...=Would this be the same people that designed a game so poorly, with so much imbalance and flaws that even to today it is a wreck of code? The same people that made a game so poorly that it took hackers almost NO effort to make their own items and bring them from single player into closed Battle.net. The same team that had the flawed logic that by selling of one of the rarest items would produce a nice cool event called Dclone, when in fact it takes a 5 year old 2 seconds to realize this merely gives MORE incentive to dupe. We could go on now couldn't we, but you all get the point, D2 was a mess of a design
Your reading comprehension needs work. The argument I responded to was that removing PK violates the story of the game. I pointed out that PvP in general doesn't even make any sense with respect to the storyline of the game.
This reminds me of the "homosexuality is bad because it's not natural" -> "but it does occur in nature" -> "don't argue it's okay just because it occurs in nature" line of argument. All I did was point out how silly it is to argue for griefing by pretending it's a part of the story of the game. That part was not an argument against griefing, just a refutation of his argument.
Yawn. Non-sequitur.
It's still irrelevant anyway. *shrugs*
Sure he can tell me. But his decision on that subject is meaningless--PvP is defined as players fighting each other, period. There's no point in anyone adding their own invented distinctions to the term.
So, you're basically showing me exactly how he's a tremendous hypocrite?
Let's see, he doesn't want a rule imposed on him, only those he agreed to. And yet he's arguing in favor of a rule that WOULD be imposed on people who didn't want it, and would result in PvP combat they DIDN'T agree to. Interesting.
Maybe you ought to keep it to yourself the next time you want to 'defend' someone else--what you actually ended up doing was illustrating exactly how full of crap his stance is.
So why is he entitled to having no unwanted rules imposed on him, but all the people who don't want to be griefed have to go to the back of the bus? Doesn't that seem a little arrogant to you?
Again, I will point out that using the story/setting of the game itself is nothing but poison to your own arguments; in the setting of Diablo 2, there would be practically no PvP whatsoever--the player characters are supposed to be heroes, remember? Their ultimate goal is to save Sanctuary, not rob other would-be heroes of their gold or lives.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Unless you are sitting in a game WAITING for someone to show up to grief you (and if you're dong that, seriously, what's wrong with you?), it is disruptive. Whatever one was doing before the griefer came in and hostiled you becomes...wait for it...disrupted by their unprovoked attack.
lol
1. Don't equivocate "grief". You know exactly what I mean by "griefing".
2. But Blizzard does try to ameliorate things like lag.
That part wasn't an argument for/against anything, goofball. I was just stating something about myself there.
It's time to welcome the other 80% of the color wheel to a Diablo game.
"This job would be great if it wasn't for the fucking customers."
You just reminded me of that.
Diablo is and was nothing without its community, and its community started as pking / pvping people, and it better damn well keep going that route.
Take Diablo 1 for instance, I got the game the summer it came out so it was about 4 months old and know what everyone was doing? They were killing eachother! Why? Because thats what Diablo is really all about. It never was about pve or any of that pussy stuff, it is all about a good story line and then get to the real stuff and kill eachother.
Look at Diablo 2, how many people you see make pve characters? How many people do you see not hostile and kill people? Pk and PvP are ESSENTIAL parts of any Diablo game.
The people crying about PK shouldn't play Diablo, this is a mature game that is made by the community and if you take away the PK the community of people from Diablo 1 and 2 are gonna verbally ass ram you so bad you will think you are getting violated even when they can't because you were to scared they would kill you. So regardless if you wanna cry about PK and want it out, you are gonna get grieved, you are gonna get violated, you are gonna get pushed from this game because you simply do not fit the game that is Diablo.
OMG, BLIZRAD U R FAGS AN I HOPE U DIE FOR KILLING DIABLO!1 U HAVE RIUND EVRYTHNG TAHT MAKES DIS GAEM GREET ND FUN.
/satire
It's time to welcome the other 80% of the color wheel to a Diablo game.
It's not about ratings, it's about a good gameplay experience.
It's time to welcome the other 80% of the color wheel to a Diablo game.
Of course you see a lot of people PKing on Bnet because many of the people who don't like PKing stopped playing on the realms out of frustration. It doesn't prove that the PK community is larger (or smaller) than the non-PK community. All it proves is that the PKers were given the power to muscle out the non-PKers.
This is my last post on the topic and likely on these forums. The moderation here seems fickle at best since a lot of these posts are nothing but flames/insults and they are allowed to stay. Many people posting in these topics do nothing but flame/insult and they are not even temporarily banned. Add this to the fact that all the anti-PK arguments boil down to "PKing was intended to be in the game, therefoe it SHOULD be in the game" and "Your argument that your fun is ruined is invalid but my argument that is exactly the same only for me is perfectly valid."
Not to mention that most of my posts go unnoticed even when I put a lot of effort into them. Either that or they are selectively quoted so as to be rendered meaningless. Have fun guys, good luck to the anti-PKers, and don't get too stressed out, it's not worth it.
Another good soul lost to the mindless Griefers.
Good night, sweet prince, may you grace us in our dreams.
It's time to welcome the other 80% of the color wheel to a Diablo game.
Thanks for your concern But realistically I'll probably just continue to post over at diii.net, where the flaming is not tolerated at all so people are forced to either have meaningful discussion or just not post.
And yes, I realize that this is a post after I made my "last post" feel free to laugh, etc.
Please:
1. You can play your whole Diablo 'career' without ever engaging another player. But you can't even reach the level at which PvP is ALLOWED without doing at least some PvM (and to be really competitive in PvP, you have to do a LOT of PvM). In other words, everyone does PvM, at least for a while, but not everyone does PvP.
2. You don't get any experience for killing other players. That by itself is a BIG 'special or favored' point on the PvM side. Diablo 2 rewards PvM, but not PvP (unless you consider an inventory full of ears a reward).
And how many of those choices allow them to continue playing cooperatively and make friends in the game without having to deal with a griefer's intrusion?
Absurd suggestions like "play in passworded games" destroy the ability to make friends and otherwise meet new people to team up with. You're basically saying that players should have to pay some kind of penalty for wanting to play cooperatively online (and forbid with people you didn't already know!). When you really get down to it, the absurdity of the argument shines through. Why should PvM players be penalized when their games aren't bothering anyone else? You can't compare disallowing griefing to that because griefing disrupts others, while cooperative PvM play does not.
You're going off on a tangent. All of the players you can choose from in Diablo 2 have saving Sanctuary as their ultimate goal--if they didn't, you'd be able to 'win' the game in different ways with different classes. But no, regardless of who you choose, your goals are always the same--defeat the Prime Evils. They all have, storyline-wise, much better things to do than ambush other would-be heroes, killing them and stealing their money. They're supposed to be heroes, not muggers.
Yes, it takes unmeasurable skill to twink a low-level character, giving them all the best stuff they can use with all of the 'dirty work' done by a high-level character.
What do you know!? A same reused argument that's in every other post by a PK.
This is completely getting us somewhere. I'm sure Blizzard wants everyone to have to play passworded games or get griefed. Sounds like a awesome marketing strategy.
Thread closed.