Hey guys, today I want to discuss the Furnace, why it's imbalanced (secondary vs. primary properties), an easy fix to make other items competitive, implications for 2.1.2 Ancients, and a bit of history for this, Rimeheart, and Crushing Blow. Enjoy and good luck getting your AF!
The problem is not the weapon itself, but the elite damage stat over all, the way blizzard designed elites and champions to HP scale in Grifts is dumb, and it makes elite damage the best stat to stack to be able to down those elites that have a 1/5 hp of the rift guardian.
Hell look at my furnance, it has almost 60% elite damage, without that stat is near to impossible to kill elites, champions and the rift guandian. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Arcano-1352/hero/43510835
Being the furnace, and a giant blacksmith hammer, I'd like to see the affix do a secondary attack based on item durability. Something along the lines of:
* Chance on hit to absorb durability from your equipped items to rip open a fissure of molten steel, dealing X damage to an area over X time.
Mixed with Spaulders of Zakara, that could be a cool concept.
People complained about the "old" Furnace Affix. Now people complain about the new Furnace Affix. Yes it is very strong but a "kinda rare" Weapon needs to have the potential being BiS for many Classes/Builds.
Balancing around rarity has never correctly balanced anything.
The combination of rarity and overwhelming power only makes the game less fair for the 99% of the population with a less well rolled furnace (and that includes the 99% of the 24 hour players who don't have one as good as that "one guy"). A random well rolled furnace drop a few weeks into a season all but guarantees the finder will be at the top in their playtime bracket, and there's nothing that any other player in that playtime bracket can do to compete except changing their bracket.
Common Legendaries should reward, but not complete, many builds. (Many currently lower tier or non-affixed legendaries)
Uncommon Legendaries should be competitive BiS with other uncommon legendaries in non-niche builds. (eg Firebird, many options for the build)
Rare Legendaries should be BiS for specific builds revolving around specific strategies. (eg Fryedehrs Wrath / Blade of Prophecy, rewards a specific build)
Extremely Rare Legendaries should create exceptionally niche effects.
Combining rarity with extremely general power hurts balance within communities. Yes exceptionally rare legendaries should be exceptional, but they shouldn't be BiS for literally every builds that isn't Crusader or using Flying Dragon. (and Flying Dragon is/was BiS for every monk build and has similar if not greater rarity).
People tend to exaggerate the "powerlevel" of the furncae.
This, this a hundred times. Unless you win the lottery and found the most awesome best rolled ancient Furnace ever, keep looking at other alternatives, they're not as bad as some people want to make you believe they are. This "I need a Furnace or I have no chance of achieving XYZ" is getting ridiculous, there have been so many instances of people playing successful (some even claiming #1 spot on some leaderboards in the past) without a Furnace. You don't automatically clear 12 level higher rifts just because you get a bit more elite damage bonus...
People tend to exaggerate the "powerlevel" of the furncae.
This, this a hundred times. Unless you win the lottery and found the most awesome best rolled ancient Furnace ever, keep looking at other alternatives, they're not as bad as some people want to make you believe they are. This "I need a Furnace or I have no chance of achieving XYZ" is getting ridiculous, there have been so many instances of people playing successful (some even claiming #1 spot on some leaderboards in the past) without a Furnace. You don't automatically clear 12 level higher rifts just because you get a bit more elite damage bonus...
That's where playtime comes in. The more you play the less furnace affects your standing relative to players who play the same amount of time as you.
Point being making an item dumb-rare then making it essentially BiS for a majority of builds is bad loot design.
I'd say Furnace is one of the better designs among the legendaries. I personally don't really use it since I find the power pretty damn boring (you do more damage, yay; I prefer procs and build boosting shit). Even if it is very powerful and helps certain people dominate, as a powerful weapon should, at least it doesn't restrict people into one particular build. There are a plenty of very rare legendaries that if you find, you not only immediately want to use it because of its power, you also have to toss out a good portion of your original build to make use of it. With builds being restricted enough as it is with all the sets, Furnace is acually one of the least restrictive good legendaries (emphasis on good, there are a plenty of non-restrictive crap legs out there, but very few good ones).
People tend to exaggerate the "powerlevel" of the furncae.
This, this a hundred times. Unless you win the lottery and found the most awesome best rolled ancient Furnace ever, keep looking at other alternatives, they're not as bad as some people want to make you believe they are. This "I need a Furnace or I have no chance of achieving XYZ" is getting ridiculous, there have been so many instances of people playing successful (some even claiming #1 spot on some leaderboards in the past) without a Furnace. You don't automatically clear 12 level higher rifts just because you get a bit more elite damage bonus...
Eh, that's debatable though. Yes there have been maybe a couple instances of high ranked leaderboard spots without BiS gear, but I would venture that's largely in part due to rift RNG, particularly before this patch where there was a larger discrepancy. No, you don't clear 12 levels higher, but you will jump up 2-3 if Furnace is BiS for your build. Blizz is getting better at itemization and SOME builds are better off with other items (Incense Torch, Blade of Prophecy, SMK), but MOST still use Furnace, which is ok - I was just pointing out specifically why it's so good - because no other items have that kind of benefit on a secondary property, except for the ones I mentioned. The comparison isn't Furnace vs. SMK for example, it's Furnace vs. nearly every other 'redone' legendary (SK Mace, new Wormwood) and why they can't come close to touching it. Fortunately though, a lot more Furnaces will now be dropping. I just wanted to bring some more awareness to this particular item. Cheers.
I'd say Furnace is one of the better designs among the legendaries. I personally don't really use it since I find the power pretty damn boring (you do more damage, yay; I prefer procs and build boosting shit). Even if it is very powerful and helps certain people dominate, as a powerful weapon should, at least it doesn't restrict people into one particular build. There are a plenty of very rare legendaries that if you find, you not only immediately want to use it because of its power, you also have to toss out a good portion of your original build to make use of it. With builds being restricted enough as it is with all the sets, Furnace is acually one of the least restrictive good legendaries (emphasis on good, there are a plenty of non-restrictive crap legs out there, but very few good ones).
It would be well designed (from a balance standpoint) if it wasn't super rare. Of course realistically most legendaries should be competitive with each other if tehy're "general damage" legendaries.
It would be well designed (from a balance standpoint) if it wasn't super rare. Of course realistically most legendaries should be competitive with each other if tehy're "general damage" legendaries.
They nerfed the rarity in the last patch, so now you can find Furnace just like other weapons.
Eh, that's debatable though. [...] you will jump up 2-3 if Furnace is BiS for your build. [...] I just wanted to bring some more awareness to this particular item. Cheers.
I'd rebut that that's debatable. 2-3 levels higher mean 28%-45% more monster health; but a Furnace will "only" grant you 10-20% more damage against elites compared to other choices (see Shinna's post). I have a hard time seeing how 10% more damage will get you 3 levels higher when the increase in monster health is actually 45%.
It's nice that you want to bring awareness to this, but I don't see the point of this post besides discussing it. It's more like "let's bring this to the community's/dev's attention and discuss it" (which I'm doing here) rather than a helpful advice for the overwhelming majority of the playerbase. Many many many people watch your videos and may be completely focused on farming that one ancient Furnace and forget looking left and right at weapons that are just slightly worse, but actually within their reach. An ancient Furnace is so extremely rare that even if you get to paragon 800 or 900 (in a season, or farm the equivalent on non-season) there's a fair chance you'll never get one. Having in the back of your mind that you might get 2-3 levels higher simply because of one item (that might never drop) is not motivating nor helpful at all.
I think it would be better to point out that a Furnace is indeed the BiS item for many classes/builds, but there are plenty alternatives along the way and people should look out for them. See, there's two kinds of advice: 1) "get an ancient Furnace!" and 2) "craft an ancient Sunder, then wait for an ancient 2h weapon drop (Heart Slaughter, Maximus, or whichever element you're using; Sledge of Athskeleng; ...) and if you get a ancient Furnace, it'll be BiS if and only if you don't lose more than 10-20% elemental sheet DPS". (Again, not every ancient Furnace will immediately be BiS, keep that in mind). Now, which of those two kinds of advice do you think is more helpful and motivating for 99% of all players? Because lets face it, all sub-paragon 800 players who will find an ancient Furnace are just extremely lucky. The majority will be fine with the alternative weapons. Heck, if you're paragon 600 and don't have a furnace the difference between paragon 600 and 1000 is much much higher than that between Furnace and non-Furnace. The remedy to that is the same as grinding for an ancient Furnace: play thousands of hours.
How about a well rolled Furnace vs well rolled Sunkeeper (30% elite damage) and a well rolled Firebird's Eye (20% fire damage)? is that really so big difference from a Furnace?
How about a well rolled Furnace vs well rolled Sunkeeper (30% elite damage) and a well rolled Firebird's Eye (20% fire damage)? is that really so big difference from a Furnace?
Assuming all are same 'tier' (either all Ancient or all non-Ancient), Furnace still wins because the 50% elite damage is a secondary modifier, but it's a primary on SK. Also, the damage range will be higher, meaning higher FB 3k ticks.
Eh, that's debatable though. [...] you will jump up 2-3 if Furnace is BiS for your build. [...] I just wanted to bring some more awareness to this particular item. Cheers.
I'd rebut that that's debatable. 2-3 levels higher mean 28%-45% more monster health; but a Furnace will "only" grant you 10-20% more damage against elites compared to other choices (see Shinna's post). I have a hard time seeing how 10% more damage will get you 3 levels higher when the increase in monster health is actually 45%.
It's nice that you want to bring awareness to this, but I don't see the point of this post besides discussing it. It's more like "let's bring this to the community's/dev's attention and discuss it" (which I'm doing here) rather than a helpful advice for the overwhelming majority of the playerbase. Many many many people watch your videos and may be completely focused on farming that one ancient Furnace and forget looking left and right at weapons that are just slightly worse, but actually within their reach. An ancient Furnace is so extremely rare that even if you get to paragon 800 or 900 (in a season, or farm the equivalent on non-season) there's a fair chance you'll never get one. Having in the back of your mind that you might get 2-3 levels higher simply because of one item (that might never drop) is not motivating nor helpful at all.
I think it would be better to point out that a Furnace is indeed the BiS item for many classes/builds, but there are plenty alternatives along the way and people should look out for them. See, there's two kinds of advice: 1) "get an ancient Furnace!" and 2) "craft an ancient Sunder, then wait for an ancient 2h weapon drop (Heart Slaughter, Maximus, or whichever element you're using; Sledge of Athskeleng; ...) and if you get a ancient Furnace, it'll be BiS if and only if you don't lose more than 10-20% elemental sheet DPS". (Again, not every ancient Furnace will immediately be BiS, keep that in mind). Now, which of those two kinds of advice do you think is more helpful and motivating for 99% of all players? Because lets face it, all sub-paragon 800 players who will find an ancient Furnace are just extremely lucky. The majority will be fine with the alternative weapons. Heck, if you're paragon 600 and don't have a furnace the difference between paragon 600 and 1000 is much much higher than that between Furnace and non-Furnace. The remedy to that is the same as grinding for an ancient Furnace: play thousands of hours.
Thanks for the feedback/advice, I'll take it into consideration for future item-based videos.
Individuals whined about the "old" Furnace Affix but presently individuals grumble about the new Furnace Affix. Yes it is extremely solid yet then also people will never stop complaining about this.I have taken a survey of Furnace service nyc there also we found the same problem as all are discussing in it.
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tWmhUywIDA was posted on the frontpage today, obviously this is a non-ancient Furnace vs Ancient devastator + firebird source, but still, getting an ancient furnace with the right stats seems to be rather rare atm.
http://youtu.be/tBkCROjdQ9k
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
Hell look at my furnance, it has almost 60% elite damage, without that stat is near to impossible to kill elites, champions and the rift guandian.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Arcano-1352/hero/43510835
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
* Chance on hit to absorb durability from your equipped items to rip open a fissure of molten steel, dealing X damage to an area over X time.
Mixed with Spaulders of Zakara, that could be a cool concept.
The combination of rarity and overwhelming power only makes the game less fair for the 99% of the population with a less well rolled furnace (and that includes the 99% of the 24 hour players who don't have one as good as that "one guy"). A random well rolled furnace drop a few weeks into a season all but guarantees the finder will be at the top in their playtime bracket, and there's nothing that any other player in that playtime bracket can do to compete except changing their bracket.
Common Legendaries should reward, but not complete, many builds. (Many currently lower tier or non-affixed legendaries)
Uncommon Legendaries should be competitive BiS with other uncommon legendaries in non-niche builds. (eg Firebird, many options for the build)
Rare Legendaries should be BiS for specific builds revolving around specific strategies. (eg Fryedehrs Wrath / Blade of Prophecy, rewards a specific build)
Extremely Rare Legendaries should create exceptionally niche effects.
Combining rarity with extremely general power hurts balance within communities. Yes exceptionally rare legendaries should be exceptional, but they shouldn't be BiS for literally every builds that isn't Crusader or using Flying Dragon. (and Flying Dragon is/was BiS for every monk build and has similar if not greater rarity).
This, this a hundred times. Unless you win the lottery and found the most awesome best rolled ancient Furnace ever, keep looking at other alternatives, they're not as bad as some people want to make you believe they are. This "I need a Furnace or I have no chance of achieving XYZ" is getting ridiculous, there have been so many instances of people playing successful (some even claiming #1 spot on some leaderboards in the past) without a Furnace. You don't automatically clear 12 level higher rifts just because you get a bit more elite damage bonus...
Point being making an item dumb-rare then making it essentially BiS for a majority of builds is bad loot design.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
I'd rebut that that's debatable. 2-3 levels higher mean 28%-45% more monster health; but a Furnace will "only" grant you 10-20% more damage against elites compared to other choices (see Shinna's post). I have a hard time seeing how 10% more damage will get you 3 levels higher when the increase in monster health is actually 45%.
It's nice that you want to bring awareness to this, but I don't see the point of this post besides discussing it. It's more like "let's bring this to the community's/dev's attention and discuss it" (which I'm doing here) rather than a helpful advice for the overwhelming majority of the playerbase. Many many many people watch your videos and may be completely focused on farming that one ancient Furnace and forget looking left and right at weapons that are just slightly worse, but actually within their reach. An ancient Furnace is so extremely rare that even if you get to paragon 800 or 900 (in a season, or farm the equivalent on non-season) there's a fair chance you'll never get one. Having in the back of your mind that you might get 2-3 levels higher simply because of one item (that might never drop) is not motivating nor helpful at all.
I think it would be better to point out that a Furnace is indeed the BiS item for many classes/builds, but there are plenty alternatives along the way and people should look out for them. See, there's two kinds of advice: 1) "get an ancient Furnace!" and 2) "craft an ancient Sunder, then wait for an ancient 2h weapon drop (Heart Slaughter, Maximus, or whichever element you're using; Sledge of Athskeleng; ...) and if you get a ancient Furnace, it'll be BiS if and only if you don't lose more than 10-20% elemental sheet DPS". (Again, not every ancient Furnace will immediately be BiS, keep that in mind). Now, which of those two kinds of advice do you think is more helpful and motivating for 99% of all players? Because lets face it, all sub-paragon 800 players who will find an ancient Furnace are just extremely lucky. The majority will be fine with the alternative weapons. Heck, if you're paragon 600 and don't have a furnace the difference between paragon 600 and 1000 is much much higher than that between Furnace and non-Furnace. The remedy to that is the same as grinding for an ancient Furnace: play thousands of hours.
If "still 4x Rarer" is your definition of "just like others"
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MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
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