Odyn Son would be pretty damn good in 2.1. The proc damage scales with elemental bonus, so the lightning bonus it naturally rolls will aid all your spells in addition to its own proc. I've been getting reports from my clan mates of their Odyn Sons striking for 20-30M per bolt. And when you have a slow weapon in combination with Arcane Torrent - Static Discharge, you get a skill that you can channel for a longer period of time and also has a respectable proc coefficient for triggering Odyn Son's chain lightning.
Thunderfury's proc damage will also scale with elemental bonus and will provide a decent form of crowd control. It's bound by an internal cooldown, though.
Jaetch! Answering all my questions, thank you!! Could you possibly explain what mechanics make Odyn son able to hit for 20-30mil? I'm interested to know how it works to have results like that.
Odyn Son has a chain lightning proc. 20-30m for these procs is obviously with very high DPS gear. It's a hit for 100-120% weapon damage, but gains a double increase from CHD, CHC, and IAS, and therefore can proc so high (does not gain elemental damage bonus, though). Read more about it here.
Thanks for the link Bagstone, spent a good hour reading up on item procs and how their damage scales. That test by Nubtro is ridiculously intricate, huge help too. Looks like I've got quite a ways to go before hitting 20 mil proc crits. But I did a little calculating myself and with enough +%lightning damage and +% elite damage you should be able to get up to 40 mil!! (but we're talking best possible rolls in that case). Anyways, pretty neat stuff. Thanks again.
I want to try the one I have, but I can't harness it's power effectively because I don't have a lot of good lightning gear (Mykens, VC, Thundergod's Vigor).
I want to try the one I have, but I can't harness it's power effectively because I don't have a lot of good lightning gear (Mykens, VC, Thundergod's Vigor).
Personally, I hate fulminator. I had one for a while as a Wiz (lightning/cc build) and it was worse than Odyn Son.
Odyn Son has a chain lightning proc. 20-30m for these procs is obviously with very high DPS gear. It's a hit for 100-120% weapon damage, but gains a double increase from CHD, CHC, and IAS, and therefore can proc so high (does not gain elemental damage bonus, though). Read more about it here.
In 2.1, all proc damage from items are supposed to scale with elemental bonuses on gear. If they don't on the PTR, that would be a bug.
Bug Fixes: Legendary items that directly deal damage should now all properly benefit from the appropriate +% Elemental Damage item affix, including:
So Im sure this was covered somewhere, but I didn't see it in the link to Druins Mechanics Workshop that Bagstone posted, but what is the difference between "weapon damage" and sheet dps. I ask because the Odyn Son breakdown that Nubtro wrote out gave a really good breakdown of the damage. Is that how weapon damage always gets calculated?
Sheet DPS is the average damage you deal with 100% weapon damage, or an auto-attack. Skills and proc effects have specific weapon damage, like 300%, 550%, 679%, etc. and those are basically multipliers based off your base damage.
Say your sheet DPS is 1 million. If you spam a skill that deals 300% weapon damage per cast, on average, you will be dealing 3x your sheet DPS per second.
That's just laymen's terms. It's a little more complicated than that, especially when you factor in other multipliers that don't show up on sheet, such as debuffs, DoT effects, elemental bonuses, etc.
Like with Archon, you deal 779% damage per second with Disintegration Wave. By default that's a multiplier of 7.79 your sheet DPS without any other effects added in. But with Improved Archon (22% boost), that's another 1.22x off your base sheet DPS, and then the weapon damage for Disintegration Wave kicks in. And then you have Archon's on-kill effects that add another 6% (additive damage) per kill based off your unbuffed sheet DPS outside Archon form and that dynamically changes the damage output from all the skills and proc effects you use, including procs from Odyn Son.
Gets complicated, eh?
Bottom line is: Sheet DPS matters. Elemental and skill bonuses matter. Maximizing the average damage you deal per hit matters and sheet DPS doesn't always tell the whole story. Kinda a paradox sometimes.
Ok cool, I was worried for a second there that I would have to calculate all my skill damages with primary attribute modifier and crit modifier and attack speed modifiers, but it sounds like that's just how you calculate sheet DPS in te first place, and "weapon damage" is just a multiplier used with DPS. Cool.
SO! The next logical question is, and I'll try and answer it myself, does skill damage get calculated multiplicatively with all your debuffs and buffs and +%skill damage and +%elemental damage and elite damage modifiers. For instance, you have 1 million sheet DPS, 45% elemental damage, 25% elite damage, 27% skill damage, 40% buffed damage from skills and passives and you're using a skill that does 500% weapon damage. Which way does the equation look?
Ok cool, I was worried for a second there that I would have to calculate all my skill damages with primary attribute modifier and crit modifier and attack speed modifiers, but it sounds like that's just how you calculate sheet DPS in te first place, and "weapon damage" is just a multiplier used with DPS. Cool.
Well, the thing with that is, you can get a good idea of how much total damage you can deal over time (effective DPS), but it doesn't tell you what your average hit is. Well, I guess you can figure it out if you dissect the damage calculations and go from there. I suck at math, so I won't even go there. There are spreadsheets around that can help with that, like this one (made by one of my clan mates, requires Excel or similar spreadsheet reader).
And, no. Some buffs and debuffs are additive, some are multiplicative. You can get a list of many of them here. It's not that easy. Things are still being clarified or discovered each day.
I'm not a theorycrafter, at least I don't consider myself one. If you want to test stuff out, you'll need recording software with lossless recording and a video player that can track each individual frame of a video. That way you can track individual numbers over specific windows of time. It'll also help to have legacy items that can make your min hit and max hit damage identical so your average hit does not fluctuate.
Ugh, that sounds like no fun at all. Plus there's no way for me to get legacy items. I'll check those spreadsheets out though and stick with nominal theoretical calculations. Thanks for all the info though, it's a super big help. Now back to farming!
And also a big thank you to the guys and gals who actual discover the damage break downs!
SO! The next logical question is, and I'll try and answer it myself, does skill damage get calculated multiplicatively with all your debuffs and buffs and +%skill damage and +%elemental damage and elite damage modifiers. For instance, you have 1 million sheet DPS, 45% elemental damage, 25% elite damage, 27% skill damage, 40% buffed damage from skills and passives and you're using a skill that does 500% weapon damage. Which way does the equation look?
It might be close to average hit, but you'll never actually see those since sheet DPS accounts for crit, crit damage and attack speed. So with 50%/500% at 1kk sheet DPS you'll end up getting ~300k/(1+IAS) hits with ~1.7kk/(1+IAS) crits on a 100% weapon damage skill even if you disregard all other factors.
If you want to get actual numbers, it'd be better to apply all the modifiers to weapon(+off-hand) min-max damage numbers for crit and non-crit hits.
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Odyn Son would be pretty damn good in 2.1. The proc damage scales with elemental bonus, so the lightning bonus it naturally rolls will aid all your spells in addition to its own proc. I've been getting reports from my clan mates of their Odyn Sons striking for 20-30M per bolt. And when you have a slow weapon in combination with Arcane Torrent - Static Discharge, you get a skill that you can channel for a longer period of time and also has a respectable proc coefficient for triggering Odyn Son's chain lightning.
Thunderfury's proc damage will also scale with elemental bonus and will provide a decent form of crowd control. It's bound by an internal cooldown, though.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
Odyn Son has a chain lightning proc. 20-30m for these procs is obviously with very high DPS gear. It's a hit for 100-120% weapon damage, but gains a double increase from CHD, CHC, and IAS, and therefore can proc so high (does not gain elemental damage bonus, though). Read more about it here.
I want to try the one I have, but I can't harness it's power effectively because I don't have a lot of good lightning gear (Mykens, VC, Thundergod's Vigor).
In 2.1, all proc damage from items are supposed to scale with elemental bonuses on gear. If they don't on the PTR, that would be a bug.
Bug Fixes:
Legendary items that directly deal damage should now all properly benefit from the appropriate +% Elemental Damage item affix, including:
Blackfeather - +%Physical Damage
Bul-Kathos's Oath (2) Set Bonus - +%Physical Damage
Cinder Switch - +%Fire Damage
Death's Bargain - +%Physical Damage
Death Watch Mantle - +%Physical Damage
Fulminator - +%Lightning Damage
Odyn Son - +%Lightning Damage
Maximus - +%Fire Damage
Moonlight Ward - +%Arcane Damage
Schaefer's Hammer - +%Lightning Damage
Scourge - +%Fire Damage
Shenlong's Spirit (2) Set Bonus - +%Fire Damage
Stalgard's Decimator - +%Physical Damage
Storm Crow - +%Fire Damage
Thunderfury - +%Lightning Damage
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
Sheet DPS is the average damage you deal with 100% weapon damage, or an auto-attack. Skills and proc effects have specific weapon damage, like 300%, 550%, 679%, etc. and those are basically multipliers based off your base damage.
Say your sheet DPS is 1 million. If you spam a skill that deals 300% weapon damage per cast, on average, you will be dealing 3x your sheet DPS per second.
That's just laymen's terms. It's a little more complicated than that, especially when you factor in other multipliers that don't show up on sheet, such as debuffs, DoT effects, elemental bonuses, etc.
Like with Archon, you deal 779% damage per second with Disintegration Wave. By default that's a multiplier of 7.79 your sheet DPS without any other effects added in. But with Improved Archon (22% boost), that's another 1.22x off your base sheet DPS, and then the weapon damage for Disintegration Wave kicks in. And then you have Archon's on-kill effects that add another 6% (additive damage) per kill based off your unbuffed sheet DPS outside Archon form and that dynamically changes the damage output from all the skills and proc effects you use, including procs from Odyn Son.
Gets complicated, eh?
Bottom line is: Sheet DPS matters. Elemental and skill bonuses matter. Maximizing the average damage you deal per hit matters and sheet DPS doesn't always tell the whole story. Kinda a paradox sometimes.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
SO! The next logical question is, and I'll try and answer it myself, does skill damage get calculated multiplicatively with all your debuffs and buffs and +%skill damage and +%elemental damage and elite damage modifiers. For instance, you have 1 million sheet DPS, 45% elemental damage, 25% elite damage, 27% skill damage, 40% buffed damage from skills and passives and you're using a skill that does 500% weapon damage. Which way does the equation look?
1,000,000 * 1.45 * 1.25 * 1.27 * 1.4 * 5? For 16,113,125?
Well, the thing with that is, you can get a good idea of how much total damage you can deal over time (effective DPS), but it doesn't tell you what your average hit is. Well, I guess you can figure it out if you dissect the damage calculations and go from there. I suck at math, so I won't even go there. There are spreadsheets around that can help with that, like this one (made by one of my clan mates, requires Excel or similar spreadsheet reader).
And, no. Some buffs and debuffs are additive, some are multiplicative. You can get a list of many of them here. It's not that easy. Things are still being clarified or discovered each day.
I'm not a theorycrafter, at least I don't consider myself one. If you want to test stuff out, you'll need recording software with lossless recording and a video player that can track each individual frame of a video. That way you can track individual numbers over specific windows of time. It'll also help to have legacy items that can make your min hit and max hit damage identical so your average hit does not fluctuate.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
And also a big thank you to the guys and gals who actual discover the damage break downs!
If you want to get actual numbers, it'd be better to apply all the modifiers to weapon(+off-hand) min-max damage numbers for crit and non-crit hits.