[Guide] Comprehensive CMWW Guide [PRE 2.0 PATCH]

  • #161
    My main recommendation to reach 2.73 APS with non-billions budget is to use an IAS chanto with 6-7 IAS pieces (preferably 6). That requires 54% or 53% IAS with a 1.78 or 1.79 APS wand.

    So in short, I'd swap from OS to a 1.79 APS chanto and you'll be right at 2.73 with your current setup.

    Longer suggestion is to drop your Lacuni for high dps and EHP bracers, rare or crafted, swap mempo for high CC SC, and get a high damage Chanto OH without APoC, preferably with vit and optionally high int. You'd then need to pick up IAS from your rare ring and zuni slots. If you want to keep zuni, that means either getting a trifecta, which will probably cost too much, or swapping from CC to IAS. The downside of that is you lose crit, which is really useful. Alternatively you can drop the zuni ring and get a trifecta, then swap your zuni boots for high int ICs with vit and preferably armor (no MS Or it shoots up the cost too much). Overall that should raise your dps and EHP a decent amount. With higher EHP you should be able to use Storm Armor with Shocking Aspect, which will give you a large net gain to effective dps.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #162
    UPDATED. Added 2.5 vs 2.73 section, revised 2.5 and 2.73 sections, and also added update for Siegebreaker+Kulle Uber fight.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #163
    I'm running the 2.73APS setup and gonna be replacing my storm crow for a mempo pretty soon. That means I need to get APoC on my Chanto OH. I got 10 APoC on my Chanto wand.

    It's recommended in the guide to have between 18 and 20 APoC, but did anyone test this build with 15-17 APoC? Would less APoC than 18 limit you that much in how fast you can fire off your skills? Chanto OH with APoC are really expensive, so before spending the gold, I'd like to know if this build runs well with only 16-17 APoC.
  • #164
    Quote from Toxo

    I'm running the 2.73APS setup and gonna be replacing my storm crow for a mempo pretty soon. That means I need to get APoC on my Chanto OH. I got 10 APoC on my Chanto wand.

    It's recommended in the guide to have between 18 and 20 APoC, but did anyone test this build with 15-17 APoC?


    I recently dropped my Storm Crow for a Mempo without getting an APoC Chanto-off-hand first, so I was only running with 10 APoC from Chanto-main-hand for a while and it was definitely managable above the 2.73 breakpoint and 55% CC. It's definitely less than you want, but you can totally play with only 10. So yeah, 15-17 would be easily enough.

    As for the guide, I was looking at the suggested runes for Explosive Blast, and I actually tend to use Obliterate when farming. I find it extends the range to near the same as Frost Nova, so it means not moving around as much. I will use Time Bomb on Ubers and keys though.
    And may the odds be ever in your favour.
    Emmo#2406
  • #165
    Quote from Toxo

    I'm running the 2.73APS setup and gonna be replacing my storm crow for a mempo pretty soon. That means I need to get APoC on my Chanto OH. I got 10 APoC on my Chanto wand.

    It's recommended in the guide to have between 18 and 20 APoC, but did anyone test this build with 15-17 APoC? Would less APoC than 18 limit you that much in how fast you can fire off your skills? Chanto OH with APoC are really expensive, so before spending the gold, I'd like to know if this build runs well with only 16-17 APoC.


    I've tried typing a response like 4x now and keep getting errors so I'll keep it short.

    I don't recommend mempo setup because the cost is high and the dps gains are small if anything, assuming you're comparing an OS wand setup vs IAS to reach 2.73.

    If you still want to use a mempo and APoC OH, the recommended APoC is for single target sustainability. Against 2+ targets you probably won't notice any difference between 15 and 20 APoC. Otherwise, with higher crit you can get by with lower APoC, but you risk losing efficiency if your APoC is too low to sustain against a single target.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #166
    Mempo lets you hit higher breakpoints more easily though, its not just the damage gain from mempo itself.

    As far as APOC, I'd definitely recommend at at least 18. To the person saying they got by with just 10 above, was that before they hotfixed this? There was a bug with 1.07 in which people got double apoc returns.
  • #167
    I have a lot of experience with uber fighting as cm and I don't think your strategies are very optimal. I mean no offence, I simply think my way is better. Try it out and you decide :)

    This strategy developed for a number of reasons, but the primary is to take advantage of abilities that hit several targets at once as long as they are close together. I've also found that this works 100% with 3.01 but also works very, very well with 2.7. I haven't tried at 2.5.

    The basic strategy is to freeze the ubers in such a way that EVERY tornado you cast will hit both of them. This doubles your procs and lets your friends hit both of them with their massive HotA smashes. I find that this lets you get a better freeze as well. In all of the fights even at 3.01 your targets will adjust a little bit which allows them to do a small ability here and there. Some of these abilities such as SB's grab, or SK's invulnerable "FU strut" as I like to call it, can severely hamper the fight from going smoothly.

    Ghom/Rak
    Run up between them and freeze both of them, but keep running up and to the right. You want to get to a spot where you can start casting WW and freeze ONLY Rak. Have your friends run behind you. When Ghom unfreezes, he will walk towards you and your friends and when they are on top of each other, run in and start freezing them both. Your friends can come in and start Hota smashing them both simultaneously. Ghom's stank will go away after a while and then even lower defense toons can come in and not worry about dying.

    SB/Kulle
    Run up and to the right and freeze only Kulle. Again, you want to get to a spot to the right of Kulle where you are freezing only him and dropping WW on him. Have your friends come behind you until SB charges into Kulle and freeze them both. This is an easy one to tell if you have them in the right spot because you'll start taking reflect damage from SB. Because of the severe difference in HP between these two, your friends at some point will need to stop attacking both and start just attacking SB. To take advantage of the full lock and AOE damage that you do, it's most efficient to have them die at the same time. After a little practice, you can figure out when they need to swap targets.

    SK/Magdah
    This is where the strategy shines the most I think. This used to be a pain to do but with this strategy you really can trivialize the first part of this fight as much as the other two. When you first start, everyone runs away from Mag. It's important to create some room between SK and Mag. SK will teleport to you and at that time, the CM and ONLY the CM will run to Mag and start freezing her. Once the CM is set up, EVERYONE stops attacking SK and goes to Mag. If you are all clustered around Mag and there is enough room between her and SK, he will teleport on top of Mag and you'll get your double target stun lock. Mag will not shield up until SK is dead and with the two targets you should be able to keep them both static enough that Mag can't drop an arcane beam and SK can't do his "FU strut". Once SK dies, it's pretty self explanatory.

    I'd love to make a video of this because it's way easier to see than to explain, but unfortunately I have no idea how to do that :)

    This has made a HUGE improvement in kill time and stun lock for me and my team, so I encourage you to try it out and let me know what you think!
  • #168
    Quote from RasAlgethi24
    To the person saying they got by with just 10 above, was that before they hotfixed this? There was a bug with 1.07 in which people got double apoc returns.


    Nah, this was like a week ago.
    I had about 2 days of not enough money to get an APoC Chanto after forking out for a Mempo, so I just kept going with 10 APoC. It was tough and inefficient, but it was still playable. Felt like being low-geared again - you know - being careful with EB and Bubble instead of spamming.
    And may the odds be ever in your favour.
    Emmo#2406
  • #169
    Quote from JKlimek

    I have a lot of experience with uber fighting as cm and I don't think your strategies are very optimal. I mean no offence, I simply think my way is better. Try it out and you decide :)

    This strategy developed for a number of reasons, but the primary is to take advantage of abilities that hit several targets at once as long as they are close together. I've also found that this works 100% with 3.01 but also works very, very well with 2.7. I haven't tried at 2.5.

    The basic strategy is to freeze the ubers in such a way that EVERY tornado you cast will hit both of them. This doubles your procs and lets your friends hit both of them with their massive HotA smashes. I find that this lets you get a better freeze as well. In all of the fights even at 3.01 your targets will adjust a little bit which allows them to do a small ability here and there. Some of these abilities such as SB's grab, or SK's invulnerable "FU strut" as I like to call it, can severely hamper the fight from going smoothly.

    Ghom/Rak
    Run up between them and freeze both of them, but keep running up and to the right. You want to get to a spot where you can start casting WW and freeze ONLY Rak. Have your friends run behind you. When Ghom unfreezes, he will walk towards you and your friends and when they are on top of each other, run in and start freezing them both. Your friends can come in and start Hota smashing them both simultaneously. Ghom's stank will go away after a while and then even lower defense toons can come in and not worry about dying.

    SB/Kulle
    Run up and to the right and freeze only Kulle. Again, you want to get to a spot to the right of Kulle where you are freezing only him and dropping WW on him. Have your friends come behind you until SB charges into Kulle and freeze them both. This is an easy one to tell if you have them in the right spot because you'll start taking reflect damage from SB. Because of the severe difference in HP between these two, your friends at some point will need to stop attacking both and start just attacking SB. To take advantage of the full lock and AOE damage that you do, it's most efficient to have them die at the same time. After a little practice, you can figure out when they need to swap targets.

    SK/Magdah
    This is where the strategy shines the most I think. This used to be a pain to do but with this strategy you really can trivialize the first part of this fight as much as the other two. When you first start, everyone runs away from Mag. It's important to create some room between SK and Mag. SK will teleport to you and at that time, the CM and ONLY the CM will run to Mag and start freezing her. Once the CM is set up, EVERYONE stops attacking SK and goes to Mag. If you are all clustered around Mag and there is enough room between her and SK, he will teleport on top of Mag and you'll get your double target stun lock. Mag will not shield up until SK is dead and with the two targets you should be able to keep them both static enough that Mag can't drop an arcane beam and SK can't do his "FU strut". Once SK dies, it's pretty self explanatory.

    I'd love to make a video of this because it's way easier to see than to explain, but unfortunately I have no idea how to do that :)

    This has made a HUGE improvement in kill time and stun lock for me and my team, so I encourage you to try it out and let me know what you think!


    Thanks for the info. Those are basically the tactics I try to use now, I just haven't updated the strats section too much. The SB+Kulle one should reflect that idea. I also didn't really consider how other classes benefit from having them stacked better since I've only used a wizard. I'll try to find time to update the strats sometime soon. For now hopefully they're sufficient for people that have little or no idea what to do as a CMWW.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #170
    HOTA Barbs greatly benefit from stacked or at least close ubers. They can hit both at the same time which makes for much faster kills. A little side tip for HOTA barbs, if they ubers are close but not quite stacked you can hold shift to hammer inbetween the two of them and still hit both. You have to get the angle right but it works.

    I basically use all the tactics JK uses as well except for ghom/rak I and the team members just move the right at the start. Lock Rak, ghom will wander over and get locked on top of Rak.
  • #171
    Can you suggest an DPS vs MP table where Elites go down "pretty" quick?

    I have fully buffed around 350K dps and defenisve stats to handle MP10, but it takes quite alot of time to down the Elites. At MP7 they go down pretty quick so i would say 300-350 K = efficient farming in MP7.

    So something like

    MP1-- 30-70 K DPS
    MP2-- 50-100K DPS
    MP3--100-140K DPS
    MP4--125-170K DPS
    MP5--150-210k DPS
    MP6--200-275k DPS
    MP7--250-350k DPS
    MP8--350-440k DPS
    MP9--425-480k DPS
    MP10--475-> DPS

    Would this be a table state efficient farming (when haveing the Defensive stats in order) ??
    **Farming is my life**
  • #172
    That looks more like something I'd recommend for Archon. For SNS I'd say around 200-250k for MP10 to make it reasonably efficient, with the understanding that white give you a lot of xp and loot. I run at 200-220k and it takes me around 20-30s to kill most elites, I think. That seems reasonable enough to me. If you're not using full SNS then you need higher dps, which is why I suggest gearing for SNS or at least that everyone should use SA.

    I'll try adding dps to that table sometime when I have some spare time. I just hate dealing with tables in forums but it should't be too bad to just add a column to the EHP table.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #173
    Won't this be pretty subjective to things like attacks per second and % damage to elites, etc? I hate paper DPS charts like this because they assume so many generic values that they really aren't that useful. You really don't need 250k dps to white farm in MP10 and if you use a SoJ then dps vs elites will obviously be far off. Just my 2 cents.
  • #174
    CMWW doesn't usually use a SoJ and dps multiplier isn't drastically different for 2.5 vs 2.73 APS, so the only main assumptions I'd make are using SA and either 2.73 or 2.5 APS. Then the only main difference is whether you use shards or shell.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #175
    Could modify my comment but that will make some more requirements on this task.

    DPS needed to down 1 Elite Pack in 30 seconds.

    CMWW build
    1. With EA-Prismatic Armor, DS-Crystal Shell
    2. With Storm Armor-Shocking Aspect, DS-Crystal Shell
    2. With Storm Armor-Shocking Aspect, DS-Diamond Shards

    Since i think those 3 are the most common. That will then give a table of 10 rows and 4 columns(inc MP level).
    If anyone have the time and skill to make such a table i will /kneel and /salute you very much!
    Have a nice evening D3 fans!
    //Ultragrisen
    **Farming is my life**
  • #176
    I don't plan to make a table to include anything but SA because if you're not using SA you are gimping your dps by 30-50%. The only times anyone should use EA, imo, are 1) for high MP ubers or group runs where your dps contribution isn't needed or 2) when first starting out at low gear levels to see if you like the build. Otherwise once you decide to gear up and spend some gold on the build, you should run SA, even if it means lowering the MP because of the lower survivability. The increase in farming efficiency is that significant. At 220k dps or so I do about as much effective dps as someone with 300-350k dps running EA instead of SA, to give comparison.

    I'll try to set up the table one of these days but I've been pretty busy lately trying to finish up my coding for my research. I'll likely just add 1 column for dps and let people factor in shell over DS or (and I cringe at it) EA over SA themselves.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #177
    Yeah SA is huge. I tested some mp10 timed ghom kills and in my case it gave me a boost of 60% true damage. This calc says I should get a boost of 62% just from SA. http://d3cmww.com/

    Question for Loroese (and anybody else) recently I switched some stuff around and dropped 5k life but gained 94 all resists. Because of how DS works I would assume this is the right move. Is it? With this change Im at 45k life, 811 AR, 4.4K armor.
  • #178
    I remember we had this discussion in a different thread. Basically, my subjective answer would be yes - based on personal experience (I've played with every amount of HP between 25k and 100k) and maths (as follows). However, it needs to be added that additional HP doesn't hurt. You're definitely not the average Joe player with a limited budget. If you can afford it, there's no reason to not stack any kind of EHP stat (hi@Jaetch ;-)). However, for 90% of people asking question and 99% of anons reading the forum it's about balancing stats to get the most bang for your buck.

    If my maths is correct, you're now at 88.33% mitigation (58.28% from armor, 72.02% from allres). Previously you were at 87.28% (58.28%/69.51%). What does it mean? Well, after about 480k incoming damage your additional allres would have mitigated 5k more than your old equip, and thus "outweigh" the loss of EHP. But it's kind of a weird way of thinking. I like to think of it that way: allres/armor is your survival aid for every single hit. The more you have, the more valuable is your Diamond Skin. Once DS wears off/is consumed though, you need HP. HP is basically the buffer you need for lags, heavy hits, start of DSCMWW rotation, and so on. If your buffer is higher, you have a much easier start into any fight, more room for error, and can take more hits (note that LoH regain and DS re-buff is simply about you hitting foes and does not scale with the amount of hits you get, as opposed to barbs' fury). However, more HP does not directly benefit your DS.

    Blah. Sorry for long answer, complicated matter. Bottom line, I think you made the right move. I made the same move a while ago and everything became much much easier. HTH (until mastermind Loroese will probably tear my maths apart and give you a more elaborated answer ;-)).
  • #179
    ^Thanks for the response. Its difficult to judge yeah and Im not quite sure how to test it but after playing with it for a while it does seem Im taking less damage. Notably Im taking less damage from a molten explosion now then I did before.
  • #180
    Sorry I didn't see the question you added to your post. I think I read it before you edited it and just never looked back until today.

    If you're still at 45k life I would have done the same most likely. I was running with around 45k life and around 87% is damage reduction. It worked well enough but I opted to get a bit more DR so now I'm closer to 88.6% DR and 38.7k hp. I can't say one way or the other which works better but if I had to guess I'd say the higher DR.

    In terms of molten explosions the best way to determine if your setup actually is better is to add diamond skin to your hp to determine an effective EHP. With higher mit you get more benefit from diamond skin which could outweigh having lower EHP from the change.

    IMO mit > EHP for most things we do as CMWW. The only expections are burst damage, notably maniac and molten explosions. For those EHP is more important but for most everything else I prefer mit, and just like to keep sufficient HP (35-40k+).

    On a slightly related note: I've actually been asked to make some sort of LoH vs mitigation spreadsheet. I'll do it whenever I can actually get some spare time. Who knows, maybe I'll have time tomorrow since I'm practically out of things to do until next week. The reason it's slightly related is because of the role diamond skin plays in the usefulness of LoH.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
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