Exactly why would Blizzard nerf CM in 1.0.9?

  • #21
    This looks like a very interesting discussion and I wish I had time to read over it all but I'm frantically working to finish my thesis this week.

    My input on the matter is pretty simple. If you can farm MP10 with 10 mil worth of gear using a specific build, but it takes more like 1 bil worth of gear for basically every other build (if not more), then that one build is unbalanced. That's CMWW in a nutshell. It's just too easy to chain freeze mobs, and trivializes most of the elites in game so you can just add a few dps dealers for group play and the lack of dps doesn't matter. For virtually every other build you have to stack very high EHP to survive and you still need some amount of DPS for survivability issues with LS sustain. Also, lower dps for CMWW doesn't hurt as much as other builds because mobs stay frozen so you have a virtual 100% DPS uptime.
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  • #22
    Quote from ffs9

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    The biggest problem with CMWW is the cooldown reduction, allowing skills like Explosive Blast to deal 10 times the original intended damage, and allowing Diamond Skin to be up 99% of the time. It's not just about Frost Nova. It's about the mechanic itself.


    See, why exactly is this a "problem"? Serious question. Because I think it's just "not a problem". My 200m barb farms high MPs better than my wizard with 2-3b CMWW gear, which deals oh so much more dmg than the char sheet dps. My 500m DH can tank more than my CMWW wizard, which is supposed to not take any damage at all, right, because things are frozen all the time.

    So my opinion: Look at gameplay => not a problem.

    I think it is a "problem" because due to its own nature it invalidates almost 90% of the skills/runes of that class. That's a ton of development time invested that's not being used, because one skill isn't behaving the way they designed it to behave (or thought it would be used).

    I think looking only at the "gameplay" is analysing just the "results".

    Your Barb farms better with less gold than your Wizard because they're naturally tankier (with the 30% dmg reduction), less focus on EHP. Your Barb costs less than your Wizard because he doesn't "need" attackspeed to work. Your Barb farms "better" than your Wizard because he has a much easier time aggroing tons of mobs with much more movespeed and Tornadoes left behind (that keep mob aggro to you). Your Barb farms better because he has an on-demand 700% weapon dmg nuke with insane range. Your Barb would farm Elites better because he has a 406% weapon dmg skill that always crits and has "virtually" no resource cost, so he can destroy elites. Although some of that is just class imbalance (which came from a failed attempt to pull Barbs away from WW without changing its infinite-resource mechanics).

    Your DH tanks better than your Wizard 100% because of Gloom. Having a skill as powerful as Gloom wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have infinite discipline (again, another problematic passive, Night Stalker).

    Wizards do not have a 700% nuke/17-yard range. But those imbalances aren't the problem. Classes are supposed to be different and deal damage differently.

    The core of the problem is the infinite resource mechanic. The always on movement speed buff that gives infinite resources, sustain and damages monsters all in-one. It removes any reason to use Ancient Spear, Threatening Shout, Ground Stomp or any other "Fury Generators". These can't compete with 50000 Fury/second.
  • #23
    Quote from Xenocow

    CM isnt the Problem.
    The missing Build Diversity is.

    CM in its current state is what diminishes build diversity.

    And if they change CM at the current state of the Game, they might as well remove the Class.
    Because close to noone gonna play it anymore after the nerf ;)

    You can have a CM that procs at most once every 2 seconds, but that reduces cooldowns by 6 seconds instead of one.

    Viable to refresh Teleport/Mirror-Image/Wave-of-Force for long-range nukers with a Skorn (doesn't force attackspeed and pidgeon holes item build), and still works at keeping enemies frozen most of the time, as well as refreshing Diamond Skin.

    I play only archon btw, hate CM myself.

    Another skill based on the same problems -> "Infinite Resource" for a 300% AoE nuke, boosts EHP by a lot :fret:

    Even if they buffed Disintegrate to deal 300% damage, Archon still wins with the EHP boost and the infinite resources.
  • #24
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    I honestly doubt that.

    If they take their game design even remotely serious, I sincerely doubt they're ok with how the skill/build variety turned out to be in Diablo 3. It is just dumb to be "ok" with 95% of what you designed to be put aside by most of the playerbase because the other 5% turned out to have broken mechanics.


    part of the skill issue is because of monster power. if stuff didn't have tens or hundreds of millions of health, people would be more inclined to use slightly weaker skills / less buffing abilities. if stuff didn't do so much damage, people would be more inclined not to use as many defensive skills. of course, theres no one forcing you to play MPs at all, but the benefits of doing so are what draws people towards it. honestly, D3 needs to be reworked in many ways. not just a matter of skill / number manipulation
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  • #25
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    Good discussion. I dont think they should eliminate the cmww build but it does need a reduction in freeze lock ability. Perhaps lower the proc coefficients so a 3.0 aps freeze feels like a 2.5 freeze now and so on.

    I do agree that gear has become so good that we dont really even need a cmww wiz any more. Most of the time I group play some combination of wd +monk is the ideal. They still are great for ubers though.

    I really think Wrath is more broken than anything else in the game. The bonuses are abusrd to be permanent. Without wrath, I really dont think barbs are over powered at all.


    They need to change the immune to CC... how about every X seconds WotB lasts over X seconds then X diminishing returns is applied to CC immunity.

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Barbarians are the biggest example of how "buffing other skills" won't solve the problem. Rend and HotA were buffed, what did WW Barbs do? They switched out utility skills (Fury Generators, buffs) for those newly "broken" skills. Now you have Barbs with unlimited resources and either a broken sustain ability (Rend with Lifesteal) or a broken single-target damage-dealer (Smash). That's the ONLY choice left.

    The problem remains. You can't make them give up the absurd utility (movespeed, infinite resources, "passive" sustain with tornadoes healing) that RLtW + ItF gives.

    DHs are another prime example of what I'm saying. No infinite Hatred mechanic = no abuse of high-dps skills (Cluster Arrow). No instant cooldown mechanic = no abuse of cooldown based abilities (Fan of Knives, Rain of Vengeance). Infinite Discipline mechanic (Night Stalker) = infinite usage of the strongest discipline-based skill, Gloom => Which by giving an insane boost to EHP and sustain outshadows every other utility/survival skill for DHs.

    Judging from the recent statements (on Archon and WotB) it seems like the devs understand this basic idea. I hope they see that "proc" mechanics (Into the Fray, CM, Nightstalker, AP on Crit) too fit this category of making every other gameplay option trivial.

    I just wish the playerbase would realize this too.


    I approve! However... if these proc mechanics are in place what would be needed to buff the wizard? Archon and CM wiz's would be weaker, something else would need to be done to encourage other abilities. Granted I'm not very knowledgeable with the wizard overall (I have the least amount of fun with this class ATM), but what other viable builds are there that can even be considered for high end MP farming? Almost any non cookie cutter build I've attempted generally uses CM or APoC to spam X ability and in crap gear it simply doesn't work well (for me).
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  • #26
    According to the skill Critical Mass:

    Back in Diablo II, every class had at least one skill which was chosen by almost every player; e.g. at least one point into Warmth (Sorc), Amplify Damage (Necro), Holy Shield (Pala), Weapon Mastery (Barb), Critical Strike (Ama) etc. Nevertheless the players build different characters because the skills were quite balanced. I do not claim that everything was balanced perfectly but I did not feel much weaker compared to other builds of the chosen class; e.g. Orb-Sorc vs. CL-Sorc vs. Meteor-Sorc. Admittedly, there were immunities and therefore not every build suitable for specific areas but in Diablo III I feel much weaker if I swap Energy Twister for Arcane Orb or Disintegrate for instance.

    Because of this I do not think that Critical Mass is the problem. The other active respectively passive skills are the problem and should be adjusted but hopefully not out of proportion to other skills and other classes (see Rend).
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  • #27
    Quote from Bandyto

    According to the skill Critical Mass:

    Back in Diablo II, every class had at least one skill which was chosen by almost every player; e.g. at least one point into Warmth (Sorc), Amplify Damage (Necro), Holy Shield (Pala), Weapon Mastery (Barb), Critical Strike (Ama) etc. Nevertheless the players build different characters because the skills were quite balanced. I do not claim that everything was balanced perfectly but I did not feel much weaker compared to other builds of the chosen class; e.g. Orb-Sorc vs. CL-Sorc vs. Meteor-Sorc. Admittedly, there were immunities and therefore not every build suitable for specific areas but in Diablo III I feel much weaker if I swap Energy Twister for Arcane Orb or Disintegrate for instance.

    Because of this I do not think that Critical Mass is the problem. The other active respectively passive skills are the problem and should be adjusted but hopefully not out of proportion to other skills and other classes (see Rend).


    That's a good point, but those "generally accepted must have abilities" only give extra % to damage/defense/resource regen. Warmth was helpful but it didn't give you infinite mana back in D2.

    CM and APoC offer infinite resources or 0 second CD's in a game based on CD & resource management combat. In contrast the other classes mainly have the ability for infinte resources but it requires more slots and gear to achieve. Only the WD (other than the Wiz) has the ability to reduce CD's but it's no where near the ability of a Wiz.

    If Blizzard wants to establish that wizards are supposed to have the easiest resource/CD management in contrast to the other classes that's fine, but it needs to be balanced in comparison to the other classes strengths (ignoring barbs ATM).
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  • #28
    Quote from Slayerviper

    However... if these proc mechanics are in place what would be needed to buff the wizard?

    First I think they need to realize how much broken are these few mechanics (I think they do already): resource on hit and cooldown reduction.

    The AP/crit could be reworked into +AP/sec on crit (ranging from 2-6, lasting for 3-4 seconds), so that it works for multiple styles (1-handed, 2-handed, lower crit + fast attackspeed, higher crit). CMWW would still work (could get up to 20-30 AP/sec) but would require intelligent placing of tornadoes (due to lack of infinite resources), and proper resource management (for Diamond Skin, Explosive Blasts, Frost Nova).

    Night Stalker and Into the Fray could have similar reworks. ItF: when critting, increases Fury gained by 100% for 3 seconds (from any source). Fury Generators become a lot more attractive. In order to not kill WW+Sprint as a viable combo, these could have their resource costs reduced (Sprint lasts 5 seconds, costs 10 Fury), and their dmg buffed. Night Stalker: gains +3 Disc/sec for 5 seconds (can only proc once every 10 seconds).

    Honestly, anything to bring back the awesome resource and cooldown management that makes combat feel good on lower difficulties (release).

    Archon and CM wiz's would be weaker, something else would need to be done to encourage other abilities. Granted I'm not very knowledgeable with the wizard overall (I have the least amount of fun with this class ATM), but what other viable builds are there that can even be considered for high end MP farming?

    Once the infinite resource mechanic is dealt with, then they can start buffing other skills. They already did some of this, but as I said, they can buff Arcane Torrent to 350% weapon damage and people still won't use it because of both how AP/crit and CM work.

    I want kiting builds back. I want utility based builds (with Mirror Image, Teleport and Wave of Force making me feel impossible to catch). I want runes to actually fullfil the fantasy they were designed to. Like Familiar's Ancient Guardian actually protecting me when I'm low on life. Cannoneer actually feeling like a good increase to my AoE dmg (and not the 20% joke it is now). I want Conduit (Magic Weapon) and Surge of Power (Electrocute) to actually feel like they're helping me replenish my Arcane Power. And not some broken proc mechanic giving me unlimited power.
  • #29
    Quote from Slayerviper

    That's a good point, but those "generally accepted must have abilities" only give extra % to damage/defense/resource regen. Warmth was helpful but it didn't give you infinite mana back in D2.

    CM and APoC offer infinite resources or 0 second CD's in a game based on CD & resource management combat. In contrast the other classes mainly have the ability for infinte resources but it requires more slots and gear to achieve. Only the WD (other than the Wiz) has the ability to reduce CD's but it's no where near the ability of a Wiz.


    Warmth could give you infinite mana back in Diablo II if you maximized it. However, nobody spent 20 points into Warmth because other skills offered much more. This should be the same for Diablo III. Players should feel like every build is good and not feel like Energy Twister in combination with Energy Blast outclasses other builds. Sure, builds serve different purposes but unfortunately CMWW and Archon outclass everything else currently.

    Besides that, mana was no real issue in Diablo II because most players used the runeword Insight (Meditation) and wore items with bonuses to skills including Warmth which granted them an insane mana regeneration and you still had build diversity. This should also be possible in Diablo III (see APoC).

    Quote from Slayerviper

    In contrast the other classes mainly have the ability for infinte resources but it requires more slots and gear to achieve.


    I doubt that it requires more slots and gear to achieve. For instance, Barbarians do not need resources generating item affixes and Monks are not that much dependent on haste like Wizards due to Fists of Thunder.

    Edit:
    Typing error corrected and this thread is very refreshing compared to these annoying threads in the General Discussion forum. ;)
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  • #31
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from ffs9

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    The biggest problem with CMWW is the cooldown reduction, allowing skills like Explosive Blast to deal 10 times the original intended damage, and allowing Diamond Skin to be up 99% of the time. It's not just about Frost Nova. It's about the mechanic itself.


    See, why exactly is this a "problem"? Serious question. Because I think it's just "not a problem". My 200m barb farms high MPs better than my wizard with 2-3b CMWW gear, which deals oh so much more dmg than the char sheet dps. My 500m DH can tank more than my CMWW wizard, which is supposed to not take any damage at all, right, because things are frozen all the time.

    So my opinion: Look at gameplay => not a problem.

    I think it is a "problem" because due to its own nature it invalidates almost 90% of the skills/runes of that class. That's a ton of development time invested that's not being used, because one skill isn't behaving the way they designed it to behave (or thought it would be used).

    I think looking only at the "gameplay" is analysing just the "results".

    Your Barb farms better with less gold than your Wizard because they're naturally tankier (with the 30% dmg reduction), less focus on EHP. Your Barb costs less than your Wizard because he doesn't "need" attackspeed to work. Your Barb farms "better" than your Wizard because he has a much easier time aggroing tons of mobs with much more movespeed and Tornadoes left behind (that keep mob aggro to you). Your Barb farms better because he has an on-demand 700% weapon dmg nuke with insane range. Your Barb would farm Elites better because he has a 406% weapon dmg skill that always crits and has "virtually" no resource cost, so he can destroy elites. Although some of that is just class imbalance (which came from a failed attempt to pull Barbs away from WW without changing its infinite-resource mechanics).

    Your DH tanks better than your Wizard 100% because of Gloom. Having a skill as powerful as Gloom wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have infinite discipline (again, another problematic passive, Night Stalker).

    Wizards do not have a 700% nuke/17-yard range. But those imbalances aren't the problem. Classes are supposed to be different and deal damage differently.

    The core of the problem is the infinite resource mechanic. The always on movement speed buff that gives infinite resources, sustain and damages monsters all in-one. It removes any reason to use Ancient Spear, Threatening Shout, Ground Stomp or any other "Fury Generators". These can't compete with 50000 Fury/second.


    Yes I look at the result, because that's what matters, and if you agree the result is that CM is everything but overpowered, that's all I wanted to hear. :)

    Obviously, the fact that there are skills like CM, night stalker or into the fray is not some kind of coincidence but a conscious game design decision, and I really doubt that Blizzard did not realise they can potentially be heavily relied upon. In the case of CMWW, this spec has been dealt with by Blizzard several times, which is why I think it is very unlikely that they will make significant changes to CM.

    And as you and I apparently agree, it is not even the most problematic skill at the moment. If into the fray allows barbs on 10% of a given CMWW wizard's budget to farm MP10 as or even more efficiently, well 'nough said.

    In this regard:

    Quote from Loroese

    My input on the matter is pretty simple. If you can farm MP10 with 10 mil worth of gear using a specific build, but it takes more like 1 bil worth of gear for basically every other build (if not more), then that one build is unbalanced. That's CMWW in a nutshell.


    Well, you really cannot farm MP10 with 10m worth of gear. I think the general notion of "farming" includes being able to both survive and kill content relatively efficiently, which is impossible on MP10 with 10m gear. Within the wizard class, I think CMWW and Archon are similarly pricey to handle high MP content. And again other classes are much cheaper to gear for MP10 and farm more efficiently. That's why I really don't see it as imbalanced. Variety sucks, we absolutely need alternatives, but it's not breaking the game. I rather feel that some people don't like mechanics like that and prefer to fight monsters with their bare hands. ;)
  • #30
    Quote from Bandyto

    Warmth could give you infinite mana back in Diablo II if you maximized it. However, nobody spent 20 points into Warmth because other skills offered much more. This should be the same for Diablo III. Players should feel like every build is good and not feel like Energy Twister in combination with Energy Blast outclasses other builds. Sure, builds serve different purposes but unfortunately CMWW and Archon outclass everything else currently.

    Besides that, mana was no real issue in Diablo II because most players used the runeword Insight (Meditation) and wore items with bonuses to skills including Warmth which granted them an insane mana regeneration and you still had build diversity. This should also be possible in Diablo III (see APoC).

    I doubt that it requires more slots and gear to achieve. For instance, Barbarians do not need resources generating item affixes and Monks are not that much dependent on haste like Wizards due to Fists of Thunder.

    Edit:
    Typing error corrected and this thread is very refreshing compared to these annoying threads in the General Discussion forum. ;)


    If you had specific gear or lots of +skills and stacked some mana (using manashield of course) then warmth "provided" infinite mana. I know mana in general was not an issue in D2 and that's why warmth wasn't a "game changer". Sorcs needed warmth to spam their abilities just like any other class in D2. It didn't make them superior it just made them manage their resource spending (spamming) like any other class. The issue with CM is the gear that you would normally equip for "most" builds make this ability much more rewarding over any other passive. Even with 1.6 APS I can keep things almost perma-frozen (except elites) and keep unlimited AP with an APoC item. If I don't use CM I become useless almost instantly, CM is the issue (among other things).

    As you stated it's simply not rewarding to pick anything else unless your in Goldy gear.

    I'm ignoring barbs for the most part as they are the exception right now; however you need to use combination of items, abilities, and passives to keep infinite fury generating for WW (ignoring high end gear).

    WD's need multiple passives and in-some cases combination of abilities with high mana regen gear to infinitely spam powerful abilities.

    Monk's need to dual wield and have SOME haste to generate a lot of spirit. If you want a two-hander then you need to use a passive and become more dependent on haste. You can't spam spirit in-comparison other classes and that's a big focus on Monk damage (besides cyclone which requires set piece gear if you don't want to spend all your spirit for it).

    DH's need to use a hatred generator unless they are in high end gear and use NS, but you still need to use a specific ability to replenish hatred. Wizards don't need a AP generator. That's one free slot, no matter how you break it down.

    EDIT: I realized I contrasted my last statement that warmth doesn't give infinite mana. Basically warmth by it's self doesn't much on it's own unless you invest 20 points in which your taking away from other abilities for very little in-return. CM or APoC requires very little gear to be noticeably effective.
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  • #32
    Quote from ffs9

    Well, you really cannot farm MP10 with 10m worth of gear. I think the general notion of "farming" includes being able to both survive and kill content relatively efficiently, which is impossible on MP10 with 10m gear. Within the wizard class, I think CMWW and Archon are similarly pricey to handle high MP content. And again other classes are much cheaper to gear for MP10 and farm more efficiently. That's why I really don't see it as imbalanced. Variety sucks, we absolutely need alternatives, but it's not breaking the game. I rather feel that some people don't like mechanics like that and prefer to fight monsters with their bare hands. ;)


    Keep in mind no class can even "survive" in MP10 for 10 mil, it works both ways. Technically if you want to be efficient in MP10 any class will have to spend significant money; however barbs are on the cheap end because they are OP and the only class that uses STR items right now so there is a lot more supply in comparison of demand (the other items compete between two classes and this drives up prices).
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  • #33
    Quote from ffs9


    Quote from Loroese

    My input on the matter is pretty simple. If you can farm MP10 with 10 mil worth of gear using a specific build, but it takes more like 1 bil worth of gear for basically every other build (if not more), then that one build is unbalanced. That's CMWW in a nutshell.


    Well, you really cannot farm MP10 with 10m worth of gear. I think the general notion of "farming" includes being able to both survive and kill content relatively efficiently, which is impossible on MP10 with 10m gear. Within the wizard class, I think CMWW and Archon are similarly pricey to handle high MP content. And again other classes are much cheaper to gear for MP10 and farm more efficiently. That's why I really don't see it as imbalanced. Variety sucks, we absolutely need alternatives, but it's not breaking the game. I rather feel that some people don't like mechanics like that and prefer to fight monsters with their bare hands. ;)


    The main point is you can gear for super cheap and survive as CMWW. Just surviving means you can farm it, though it won't be very efficient, but not many people farm MP at max efficiency anyway. Also, that means you can just grab a couple high dps friends and play in group play with your 50-100k dps CMWW and still contribute to the runs since you freeze elites. Good luck doing that with 10 mil in gear with any other build, even with high dps players, unless you don't mind being carried.

    Personally my favorite solution would be to just change how FN works with CM, or specifically to make it not work with CM, or something like that. Then CM is still useful but SNS wouldn't be all that much better than other builds. The dps potential of other builds is on par with SNS, but they generally require a CMWW wizard to keep mobs in place to utilize full potential. Without chain freezing mobs all builds become a lot closer in terms of potential dps and survivability and you are once again forced to decide between DPS vs survival abilities and gear.
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  • #34
    Actually I do think CM is overpowered. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

    It is overpowered not in the sense that it makes the character "too powerful" (compared to others and whatnot), but in the sense that it removes a big part of the game design (cooldowns) and choice by itself.

    AP/Crit is the biggest issue (as is Fury/Crit) to me, though. Even if you take AP/Crit out of the equation, you'd probably still be left with most Wizards using a Spectral Blades + WW combo for infinite CM procs (and remove accessory buffs like Magic Weapon or Force Armor), because of how good 0 cooldowns are.

    It's not about which class is the strongest or most expensive to gear. It's about how some runes/passives were designed to be accessories and became the ability around which everything else in any build revolves (and that, imho, is broken).
  • #35
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from ffs9

    Maybe they didn't foresee it, maybe they did. However that may be, the fact remains that CMWW is around for a really long time now and with all the tweaks to its mechanics that Blizzard already did, I think, again: Blizzard is fine with it the way it is now.

    I honestly doubt that.

    If they take their game design even remotely serious, I sincerely doubt they're ok with how the skill/build variety turned out to be in Diablo 3. It is just dumb to be "ok" with 95% of what you designed to be put aside by most of the playerbase because the other 5% turned out to have broken mechanics.

    A barb with 200 million gear can easily outfarm or at least match a > 2 billion CMWW wizard farming MP10. DHs, however inefficient they are on high MPs, can rofl facetank like 5 arcane beams, plagued and electrified at the same time due to shadow power, more than any CMWW wizard.

    Barbarians are the biggest example of how "buffing other skills" won't solve the problem. Rend and HotA were buffed, what did WW Barbs do? They switched out utility skills (Fury Generators, buffs) for those newly "broken" skills. Now you have Barbs with unlimited resources and either a broken sustain ability (Rend with Lifesteal) or a broken single-target damage-dealer (Smash). That's the ONLY choice left.

    The problem remains. You can't make them give up the absurd utility (movespeed, infinite resources, "passive" sustain with tornadoes healing) that RLtW + ItF gives.

    DHs are another prime example of what I'm saying. No infinite Hatred mechanic = no abuse of high-dps skills (Cluster Arrow). No instant cooldown mechanic = no abuse of cooldown based abilities (Fan of Knives, Rain of Vengeance). Infinite Discipline mechanic (Night Stalker) = infinite usage of the strongest discipline-based skill, Gloom => Which by giving an insane boost to EHP and sustain outshadows every other utility/survival skill for DHs.

    Judging from the recent statements (on Archon and WotB) it seems like the devs understand this basic idea. I hope they see that "proc" mechanics (Into the Fray, CM, Nightstalker, AP on Crit) too fit this category of making every other gameplay option trivial.

    I just wish the playerbase would realize this too.


    This makes so much sense, I also hope more players will understand it. But since I've been a long time WoW player, I know the "Don't nerf me bro" mentality :)
  • #36
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    I really think Wrath is more broken than anything else in the game. The bonuses are abusrd to be permanent. Without wrath, I really dont think barbs are over powered at all.

    Its not only wotb. Alot of the issues are related with battlerage/into the fray. Its kinda retarded that some specs dont need any kind of resources generating skills. A batdoc relying just on 4pc zuni isnt any better imo. ;) A demon hunter using bat companion and prep/punishment along with nightstalker passive dont need any hatred regen skills at all(at decent gear level/crit chance).
    Quote from Loroese

    If you can farm MP10 with 10 mil worth of gear using a specific build

    I doubt you can "farm" mp10 on that budget. Sure its doable. Hence ppl. used 1mil sets to kill elites on mp10. But they did it with barbs and monks too. Even if you raise the budget to 50mil you cant farm it efficiently while a 50mil barb can farm mp10 quite well.

    I dont think the spec is broken at all. As a monk or barb you can ignore any kind of groundeffects as long as your ehp and dps is decent and using +5% lifesteal. With insane gear you can run with less then 3% ls or dont use it at all like invis. He melts some mp10 packs in less then 4secs as a monk. As a demon hunter you just facetank stuff while in gloom thanks to 35% damage mitigation and 15% ls which is kinda the main reason why sp/gloom is sort of op. Have you ever farmed as a decent geared wd using a ls skorn? The only things a good geared batdoc can kill are either knockbacks or frozen. ;) As long as you channel cloud of bats you simply cant die(with decent ehp/dps).

    So imo cm/ww is no problem at all. If you compare classes and assume the same budget for gear wizzards are already at the end of the food chain. You can either nerf 4 classes and certain skills/builds or buff the wizzard. I would yell for a buff tbh. :)
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  • #37
    it's the reckless design of the wizard that made people rely on cm (no disrespect to non-cm users, i am both non-cm and cm user)

    surely wizards were designed as a kiting/range but why did we end up being melee? (cm, spectral blades, sleet, etc) and that's the problem.

    the whole nerf this, buff this will never end and you know it.
  • #38
    Quote from Xenocow

    CM isnt the Problem.
    The missing Build Diversity is.

    And if they change CM at the current state of the Game, they might as well remove the Class.
    Because close to noone gonna play it anymore after the nerf ;)

    I play only archon btw, hate CM myself.


    I likewise play archon as i hate the concept and playstyle of CMWW. In fact i quite dislike archon too yet wizards can basically only play those 2 specs. Take them away and then all of a sudden a wizards name is rincewind, aka useless. The other game breaking stuff will then have to be removed too, wd being able to spirit walk all the time with infinite mana (zombie dogs) or whatever that build is, gloom for dh, wotb for barb and then we go back to just killing stuff with damage spells.

    My opinion is this kind of change cannot come right now as all of a sudden all classes except monk would feel really underwhelming after us all being used to these specific broken builds, It would need to come at the same time as itemisation so that the feeling of being underpowered again would be offset with getting "better" itemised loot. If this means you can only do mp5 now when you were doing mp10 fine before, so be it, everyone else will be in the same shoes, yet now you will be getting rewarded by better loot that in the long road of farming can get you back up to mp10 without broken mechanics.
  • #39
    Likely CM won't get "killed" as many people are worried about. Why destroy a build when you want build diversity to begin with?

    There is no arguing right now that builds with CM are better in terms of effectiveness and efficiency compared to builds without CM. Let's assume solo, because you can always rely on others in multiplayer games.

    On a scale of 1-10, let's say cookie cutter builds like SNS (or CMWW variants) and Archon are 9-10. Let's say everything else is 7 and under (mid MP Blizzard+Hydra, Spectral Blades, Arcane Mines). They're great builds and they're very useful, but they won't be as "easy" and speedy as SNS and Archon. Why aren't they as effective? Because they can't permanently keep mobs under crowd control, unless they run CM. They can't spam high damage skills with cooldowns like Explosive Blast and Archon. Yes, Archon, I consider that a single high damage spell. Even Diamond Shards fall into this category. You have Blizzard that deals 500%+ damage, but that's over 6 seconds and duplicate casts don't stack with each other, unlike multiple casts of Explosive Blast - Chain Reaction. Arcane Mines has a count limit and also has a timer before it triggers. Plus, it's channeling and you'd want to be able to continue channeling so you'd want a defensive spell. Diamond Skin? Too bad it has a cooldown. Why not run CM and virtually keep it up indefinitely?

    The point is right now, I mean right now in this current state of the game, CM makes everything better. You can run without it, but throw in CM and your build is already so much better because now you get to spam spells that normally should be on cooldown. Sleet Storm + Arcane Destruction Archon anyone? 1600% base nuke as supplementary damage every 15-20 seconds if you can trigger CM with SS enough, whereas it should only be once every two minutes.

    You can't just buff everything else and leave CM where it is. You'll be in the same boat. Then everything is better overall, but now if you throw in CM again, they're just even better than ever before. Having 90%+ of wizards run CM in one of their three valuable passive skills slots is not diversity.

    Back to the builds scale of 1-10. You down CM-oriented builds to 8-9 and bump the 7 and below builds to 7-8 or 9. I'm not saying destroy CM for what it is. I doubt the developers will do that as well. If you want maximum build diversity, you don't kill existing builds. You make them options that are as viable and desirable as other builds. Obviously all builds will never be 100% equal, just like not all farming routes of every Act will be 100% as worthwhile as the other. Remember in the first couple of patches for D3, many farming routes were nerfed, especially those with goblins and Resplendent Chests. That's because everyone ran them because those routes were the most productive and easiest to run. Just like how CM-based builds are the easiest and most effective. While the routes were nerfed, it wasn't as in no one ever touched them again. Now people have options. Same applies for the monster density changes. It made people try other options because there wasn't just one go-to route that outshines all others.

    There will be an overhaul for the wizard class. I will not be surprised if CM gets tweaked (tweaked, not nerfed to the ground) so that it's still very useful but not:

    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #40
    Quote from Jaetch

    There is no arguing right now that builds with CM are better in terms of effectiveness and efficiency compared to builds without CM. Let's assume solo, because you can always rely on others in multiplayer games.

    On a scale of 1-10, let's say cookie cutter builds like SNS (or CMWW variants) and Archon are 9-10. Let's say everything else is 7 and under (mid MP Blizzard+Hydra, Spectral Blades, Arcane Mines). They're great builds and they're very useful, but they won't be as "easy" and speedy as SNS and Archon. Why aren't they as effective? Because they can't permanently keep mobs under crowd control, unless they run CM.

    ...

    You can't just buff everything else and leave CM where it is. You'll be in the same boat. Then everything is better overall, but now if you throw in CM again, they're just even better than ever before. Having 90%+ of wizards run CM in one of their three valuable passive skills slots is not diversity.

    Back to the builds scale of 1-10. You down CM-oriented builds to 8-9 and bump the 7 and below builds to 7-8 or 9. I'm not saying destroy CM for what it is. I doubt the developers will do that as well. If you want maximum build diversity, you don't kill existing builds. You make them options that are as viable and desirable as other builds.

    Now all of that I basically totally agree with.

    Using your 1-10 scale, one could even say the difference between SNS/Archon and other builds is even greater than that say 9-10 vs 1-7 on high MPs, and something must be done about that.

    It is a good point that it could be doubtful whether (even significantly) buffing other skills on its own would do the trick, because CM increases the efficiency of every build, not just CMWW/Archon. The only point I see differently is that I don't think that needs to be changed per se, because like I said if the result is a gameplay which is not overpowered compared to other classes, it really only enables wizards to handle high MPs (of course some classes, especially DHs, need to arrive at that point yet, but that's a different aspect altogether). Dealing with the lack of build variety within the wizard class doesn't mean to ensure that other builds are as viable as CM-based builds without using CM. As mentioned before, every class has a few skills that are used by over 90% of the players, this is completely natural so why not let that be CM for wizards.

    I do fully agree though that, regarding CMWW, it is a little too easy to obtain the relevant stat values.


    Quote from Loroese

    The main point is you can gear for super cheap and survive as CMWW. Just surviving means you can farm it, though it won't be very efficient, but not many people farm MP at max efficiency anyway. Also, that means you can just grab a couple high dps friends and play in group play with your 50-100k dps CMWW and still contribute to the runs since you freeze elites. Good luck doing that with 10 mil in gear with any other build, even with high dps players, unless you don't mind being carried.


    Regarding solo play, I don't know a single D3 player who really only wants to stunlock things on MP10 and is fine taking 10 minutes to kill an elite pack. Sure, it IS striking that wizrads can survive the most difficult D3 content on a budget, but that's more like a "fun fact", because it's not viable actual gameplay.

    Regarding group play, I've said before that personally I don't mind (and don't think Blizzard does) that CMWW enables undergeared groups to give MP10 a crack, because undergeared CMWW wizards don't help with killspeed and let's be honest other group members can't completely drop EHP in order to deal DPS equivalent to super geared players.
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