1.0.5 Force Armor and Prismatic Armor Thresholds and Breakpoints

  • #1
    Since we now know the damage increase per MP level, I wanted to update my EHP table in my spreadsheet and have copied the table and pasted below to share with the community. I likely won't add it to my spreadsheet until 1.0.5 goes live though, so this is more like a preview that people can use while gearing for the next patch.

    All the damage and EHP values are in terms of thousands, so the FA threshold for MP3 is 111.1 K EHP. The calculations were made with the assumptions that the damage of level 63 normal mobs back before 1.0.4 was 127.23k. I think it was 1.0.4 that introcuded a 15% nerf, making the new damage 127.23*(1-0.15). In 1.0.5 they said they were reducing damage by 25%, so I assumed that was MP0 damage, thus the new damage is 127.23*(1-0.15)*(1-0.25) = 81.1k damage. Finally, I assumed the elite damage is 25% greater than normal mobs.

    This does not include special attacks that do excess damage like Tremor smashes. I don't recall how much more damage they do compared to other normal mobs, but if I find the info, or if anyone has a link to the relavent discussion, I can update the table to add a row for Tremors.



    To use the table, the FA threshold is the min EHP you want to have, with Force Armor active, to make optimal use of the force armor rune. Raising your EHP above that has minimal affect until you reach the PA breakpoint, at which point PA will give better survivability against elite attacks. Switching before the breakpoint is a personal call as you'll gain some extra resists to electricity, damage reflect, or other attacks besides direct attacks from elites. Note that the breakpoint is your EHP with PA active.



    Table 1: Assumed MP0 is 25% less damage than live, based on blue post stating expected decrease in damage.

    MP 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
    Damage Modifier 1 1.14 1.3 1.48 1.69 1.93 2.2 2.5 2.85 3.25 3.71
    White Mob Dmg 81.1 92.5 105.4 120.0 137.1 156.5 178.4 202.8 231.2 263.6 300.9
    Elite Mob Damage 101.4 115.6 131.8 150.1 171.3 195.7 223.1 253.5 289.0 329.5 376.1
    FA Threshold 75.1 85.6 97.6 111.1 126.9 144.9 165.2 187.8 214.0 244.1 278.6
    Prismatic Breakeven 304.2 346.7 395.4 450.2 514.0 587.0 669.2 760.4 866.9 988.5 1128.4



    Table 2: Assumed MP0 is 50% less damage than live, based on data provided by GT4, see post 15 for more details.

    MP 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
    Damage Modifier 1 1.14 1.3 1.48 1.69 1.93 2.2 2.5 2.85 3.25 3.71
    White Mob Dmg 54.1 61.6 70.3 80.0 91.4 104.4 119.0 135.2 154.1 175.7 200.6
    Elite Mob Damage 67.6 \77.1 87.9 100.0 114.2 130.5 148.7 169.0 192.6 219.7 250.8
    FA Threshold 50.1 57.1 65.1 74.1 84.6 \96.6 110.1 125.2 142.7 162.7 185.7
    Prismatic Breakeven 202.8 231.2 263.6 300.1 342.7 391.4 446.1 506.9 577.9 659.0 752.3


    EDIT: Added a second table based on the data collected by GT4 which implies damage of MP0 is actually about 50% less than on live.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #2
    Let me see if I'm reading these numbers correctly: On MP1 from 75k EHP and up it is better to move from FA to PA and from 304.2 stop using PA and switching to somehting like SA or PPB.
    Is this right or I'm misundertanding what you are trying to convey?
  • #3
    I suppose I should have clarified a bit. The PA Threshold is the EHP you would need with PA for it to be as effective against an elite hit as FA, so at MP1, you want to have at least 85.6k EHP to make full use of FA against elites. When you can reach 346.7k EHP with PA, then you're better of switching to it, but until then, or shortly below that, FA is likely to be more optimal.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #4
    So only ~ 35 wizards on the whole world should use prismatic armor on mp10 right now and the rest of us would be better off using FA? Thus even while using PA they could only withstand less than 3 attacks with 1+ million ehp?
  • #5
    Quote from ballon

    So only ~ 35 wizards on the whole world should use prismatic armor on mp10 right now and the rest of us would be better off using FA? Thus even while using PA they could only withstand less than 3 attacks with 1+ million ehp?


    Seems like it. The mobs do 370% of the damage on live at MP10 so for most wizards Force Armor is the way to go at mid to high MP levels.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #6
    Quote from ballon

    So only ~ 35 wizards on the whole world should use prismatic armor on mp10 right now and the rest of us would be better off using FA? Thus even while using PA they could only withstand less than 3 attacks with 1+ million ehp?


    About that many wizards in the world would be able to farm MP10 somewhat effectively at this point anyway. On this note - a well built CM wizard could become an effective 'tank', combining a party with 2-3 other players that are able to pull 200+k DPS, they will just have to literally DPS targets that are standing still...
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #7
    This is what i was waiting for, big thanks loroese
  • #8
    Quote from ballon

    So only ~ 35 wizards on the whole world should use prismatic armor on mp10 right now and the rest of us would be better off using FA? Thus even while using PA they could only withstand less than 3 attacks with 1+ million ehp?


    Oh, diabloprogress stats are unbuffed, so that doesn't even include the bonus from energy armor. Those 35 wizards are about the probably the few who would be able to try a shocking aspects build while others could still get away with pinpoint barrier if the armor bonus raised their EHP above the PA threshold, or if they just felt that surving 2 hits and dying to the 3rd is fine. That cuts the PA threshold by almost 1/3.

    In general, you need to look at your EHP with the respective buffs you'll have, which includes cross class buffs if you plan to play in a group.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #9
    Your assumption of a 25% damage decrease in MP0 is wrong. That's merely what, according to their blog post, would be the minimal amount of damage decrease required for players using the nerfed abilities to stay just as survivable. However, MP0 is supposed to be easier than 1.04, so damage is further decreased.

    My tests so far have been both conclusive and non-conclusive:
    I've done several comparisons of 1.04 and PTR MP0 damage (no passives, no followers, no damage reducing abilities) in A3 and basically it has come down to normal enemies doing exactly half the damage (this was conclusive for minimum and maximum hits among ~200 hits each using Demon Troopers). However I also tested Ghom's cloud (comparing the very first ticks since damage ramps up) and Diablo's fire zone (constant damage among all ticks so easy to compare) and those have been doing only ~35% of the damage they'd do on live servers.
    Because of self-healing I was using a Monk with ~3k armor and ~600 AR for those tests (exactly same values on live and PTR obviously, I double checked) so the additional 30% less damage taken by AoEs compared to live servers *may* have to do with the inherent 30% damage reduction being bugged on either live servers or PTRs.
  • #10
    Last I checked PTR, I got 2-shot in MP10 while in Archon form, which is about 650K EHP... so... I guess this holds true.

    Not that I'm going to be farming MP10 with an Archon build, anyway. Or farm MP10 at all.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #11
    Quote from GT4

    Your assumption of a 25% damage decrease in MP0 is wrong. That's merely what, according to their blog post, would be the minimal amount of damage decrease required for players using the nerfed abilities to stay just as survivable. However, MP0 is supposed to be easier than 1.04, so damage is further decreased.

    My tests so far have been both conclusive and non-conclusive:
    I've done several comparisons of 1.04 and PTR MP0 damage (no passives, no followers, no damage reducing abilities) in A3 and basically it has come down to normal enemies doing exactly half the damage (this was conclusive for minimum and maximum hits among ~200 hits each using Demon Troopers). However I also tested Ghom's cloud (comparing the very first ticks since damage ramps up) and Diablo's fire zone (constant damage among all ticks so easy to compare) and those have been doing only ~35% of the damage they'd do on live servers.
    Because of self-healing I was using a Monk with ~3k armor and ~600 AR for those tests (exactly same values on live and PTR obviously, I double checked) so the additional 30% less damage taken by AoEs compared to live servers *may* have to do with the inherent 30% damage reduction being bugged on either live servers or PTRs.


    I just looked over the official PTR patch notes and they mention reducing health and damage of mobs levels 50-63 but don't specify how much, which is unfortunate. The 25% used is the value they gave as an estimate to what they'll do so I'm not surprised if it's not completely correct.

    Do you have the data for how much damage you took per hit, as well as your stats at the time? With that information I could calculate the base damage and update the table if it's off by that much.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #12
    I've been considering switching my gems from int to vita and running storm armor shocking aspect on my cm wiz. Judging by these results though i may be better off just stacking more int and using energy armor. Is it even possible to hit the ehp threshold to survive without energy armor on mp10 or is that just a silly goal? My assumption was trading int for vita and allowing me to take additional hits with storm armor would still net me more dps than the additional int and energy armor
  • #13
    Quote from Vibe1320

    I've been considering switching my gems from int to vita and running storm armor shocking aspect on my cm wiz. Judging by these results though i may be better off just stacking more int and using energy armor. Is it even possible to hit the ehp threshold to survive without energy armor on mp10 or is that just a silly goal? My assumption was trading int for vita and allowing me to take additional hits with storm armor would still net me more dps than the additional int and energy armor


    for MP10 I think its a bit silly, Ive heard of people(with lots of mitigation) who tried to run shocking aspect in MP10, they were getting one shotted in many instances, so force armor is probably better, also shocking aspect wont proc as much with WW(12,5% proc rate) as it does with SC on live(50% proc rate), so shocking aspect wont deal as much damage unless you have the likes of 3.0 Attack speed or higher, in which case I doubt youll have enough mitigation to run around in MP10 with storm armor....
  • #14
    thanks for the feedback. looks like i'll just worry about surviving with force armor and focus more on damage
  • #15
    Quote from Loroese

    Quote from GT4

    Your assumption of a 25% damage decrease in MP0 is wrong. That's merely what, according to their blog post, would be the minimal amount of damage decrease required for players using the nerfed abilities to stay just as survivable. However, MP0 is supposed to be easier than 1.04, so damage is further decreased.

    My tests so far have been both conclusive and non-conclusive:
    I've done several comparisons of 1.04 and PTR MP0 damage (no passives, no followers, no damage reducing abilities) in A3 and basically it has come down to normal enemies doing exactly half the damage (this was conclusive for minimum and maximum hits among ~200 hits each using Demon Troopers). However I also tested Ghom's cloud (comparing the very first ticks since damage ramps up) and Diablo's fire zone (constant damage among all ticks so easy to compare) and those have been doing only ~35% of the damage they'd do on live servers.
    Because of self-healing I was using a Monk with ~3k armor and ~600 AR for those tests (exactly same values on live and PTR obviously, I double checked) so the additional 30% less damage taken by AoEs compared to live servers *may* have to do with the inherent 30% damage reduction being bugged on either live servers or PTRs.


    I just looked over the official PTR patch notes and they mention reducing health and damage of mobs levels 50-63 but don't specify how much, which is unfortunate. The 25% used is the value they gave as an estimate to what they'll do so I'm not surprised if it's not completely correct.

    Do you have the data for how much damage you took per hit, as well as your stats at the time? With that information I could calculate the base damage and update the table if it's off by that much.


    As for the 25%, that's the estimate which damage would've needed to be reduced for difficulty to be equal to live. However MP0 also has roughly 50% of 1.04 HP (1.04 is pretty exactly MP1.5 with MP0=53.~3) and according to them, MP0 isn't supposed to be equal in difficulty, so it was to be expected that MP0 would have damage further reduced.

    Anyway, here's the relevant data I still have available:
    Class: Monk (-> inherent 30% damage reduction)
    Enemy: Demon Trooper (beginning of Stonefort A3)
    Skills: only relevant passive used was OWE so all my resists were equal to each other for all tests, otherwise no passives reducing damage taken or having an influence in stats
    AR: 592 (66.37% reduction according to tooltip, slightly lower for 63 enemies)
    Armor: 2975 (49.79% reduction according to tooltip, slightly lower for 63 enemies)
    No further reductions on melee (or any) damage taken
    Sample Size: roughly 10 minutes of getting hit for each test, with 43% dodge and ~0.5 attacks per second, that'd be 171 attacks each

    1.04:
    Lowest: 5195
    Highest: 6687

    1.05 MP0:
    Lowest: 2765
    Highest: 3417

    My sample size definitely isn't big enough to get exact results on 63 base damage, however for me it was enough to see it's very likely either 50% or ~53.3% (like HP).

    If you have high enough regen to survive an A3 enemy for a while on your wizard, you should probably do another test case - should also go much faster since you wouldn't dodge almost every second hit.
  • #16
    Thanks for the information. Like you said it's right around 50%, but I have a few quick questions.

    Are your resists and armor the same on live as PTR? I don't know much about monks so I'm not sure how their buffs are being changed in the next patch. Also, just to be sure, did you use a shield or have any gear with melee reduction?

    I could try testing myself on live but I don't have much regen and I would die in just a couple hits.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #17
    Quote from Loroese

    Thanks for the information. Like you said it's right around 50%, but I have a few quick questions.

    Are your resists and armor the same on live as PTR? I don't know much about monks so I'm not sure how their buffs are being changed in the next patch. Also, just to be sure, did you use a shield or have any gear with melee reduction?

    I could try testing myself on live but I don't have much regen and I would die in just a couple hits.


    As mentioned, no further reductions or changed abilities were used. Seize the Initiative (which is getting nerfed by 50%) wasn't used and I didn't have my Enchantress out in both cases; I also double-checked that armor and AR were exactly the same. Setup was DW (so no blocks) and no items with any damage reductions from melee/range/elite.

    Basically I was only using healing abilities and passives excluding those that absorb damage in any form.
  • #18
    I figured that was the case, but I just wanted to make sure. Again, thanks for the information. I have updated the OP with a second table using the 50% damage reduction implied by your data collection. If you get bored and decide to collect any more data from other mobs, please feel free to post the results here. :D

    The only other test I can think of is to check the damage on say MP5. Based on the results I would expect MP5 to be about the same damage as now.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #19
    Quote from Loroese

    I figured that was the case, but I just wanted to make sure. Again, thanks for the information. I have updated the OP with a second table using the 50% damage reduction implied by your data collection. If you get bored and decide to collect any more data from other mobs, please feel free to post the results here. :D

    The only other test I can think of is to check the damage on say MP5. Based on the results I would expect MP5 to be about the same damage as now.


    Patch will probably hit this week anyway, so we should be seeing the exact datamined 63 base damage values soon. I still think it's not exactly 50% but rather 53.3% just like HP.

    If there was any possibility of testing a constant damage value, I'd do it, but all spells I tested had variable damage - only ground effects seemed to be constant and, as noted above, they were showing a way higher damage reduction compared to any other damage source for me.
  • #20
    Nice write-up!
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