How much APOC will i need to sustain CM?

  • #1
    hi im just curious how much APOC is valid for CM build, i currently atm have 16APOC and i dont want to invest in + armor gear and everything if i dont have enough APOC to sustain CM build. (explosive blast, Wicked wind)

    thx for feedback
  • #2
    Calculate this:
    APoC * CC * 0.125 * WW_ticks/6

    Try to reach 9 for near-perfect chaining on single mobs.
    An example of balanced stats for this value : 25 APoC, 48%CC, 2.74 att/sec.

    You can find the WW_ticks value corresponding to your datasheet attack speed there:
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794871641?page=1
    The blizzard rush build
    http://us.battle.net...opic/7173257311

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Eiy4oh94g
  • #3
    There is always the option of going for spectral blades and wicked wind if u don't have apoc on ur gear.
    It's not optimal dmg wise but it works so even without apoc u can make the spec work aka it's better with apoc no doubt but u can do ity without =)
  • #4
    thx for input, i have 16 APoC 1.86ias and it seems to doing fine with only 16 APoC
  • #5
    I just tried out a CM/WW build on MP5 and 7 and it worked fine with just 16 APoC and only 38% crit. My gear isn't even built towards the melee CM build as I only have around 310k EHP with prismatic armor (31k actual hp) and like 850 LoH. I was swapping between weapons a bit to see if there was much difference and it worked alright with total attack speed of 1.67 or 1.93. I'm actually a bit suprised it worked as well as it did with those fairly pitiful stats.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #6
    It is hard to say how much apoc you need. I think that 16-20 apoc is good enought
  • #7
    the formula above is for perma chain freezing A SINGLE target..

    the less gear you have the more mobs you need for CM to work..
    hope you understand this.. killing many mobs with CM is easy.- even with low gear.
    killing a single mob with cm is hard and required heavy gear.

    so bosses are the real gearcheck for us cm wizzards. and thats were this formula kicks in
  • #8
    do i need a full 9 to make this work? i was looking at an upgrade that would give me a 8.6 using this formula. Is that enought for a single target perma freeze?
  • #9
    Quote from Windsurfer21

    do i need a full 9 to make this work? i was looking at an upgrade that would give me a 8.6 using this formula. Is that enought for a single target perma freeze?


    you dont need a full 9, a 7 is plenty, trust me I roll over 2.73 as bp for quite a while now and have tried it with different set ups, that formula does not take into account explosion blast, frost nova, and diamond shards, all of those can crit and give you more arcane power back(not to mention frost nova and diamonds shards are free to cast).
  • #10
    9 is waaaaaaaaaaaay too much. 9 means you can completely stunlock even single targets - not necessary.

    I'm usually around 6, and I leave Diamond Skin out of the rotation on uber Ghom and uber Siegebreaker MP7/8; it's not perfect stunlock but they attack so rarely that my LoH is sufficient and the small window of opportunity for them to make an attack is usually not enough for anything nasty. With a value of 6 in that formula I sometimes manage to keep Ghom+Rakanoth completely stunlocked (i.e., no poison clouds). 9 means you spent too much on stunlock and sacrificed an unnecessary amount of DPS.

    Windsurfer21: can you tell your stats or link your gear? I'm trying to get a higher value just "for fun", but I feel that everything beyond 6 or 7 costs me too much EHP/DPS.
  • #11
    .... Am i doing this right?

    25 * 58 * .125 * 33 / 6 = 996.... I think I'm a little over lol. I only have 2.51 APS, no AS on ammy rings or helm, but I do Okay, also at 150k sheet dps
  • #12
    Quote from Psychatog

    .... Am i doing this right?

    25 * 58 * .125 * 33 / 6 = 996.... I think I'm a little over lol. I only have 2.51 APS, no AS on ammy rings or helm, but I do Okay, also at 150k sheet dps


    It's .58 (58%), not 58. => 9.96.

    That is insane though... you could get rid of one of the 3 APoC pieces and get more DPS/EHP. At least switch it, you don't need more than 6 except for boss fights.

    Edit: about your gear, which MP level do you usually play and in which constellation (solo or group and if yes, which setup)? Are you actually farming with this build+gear and if yes, on which MP? What's the maximum uber level you can do?

    I personally would think that your EHP, LoH is a bit low. Especially Magdha and Leoric just can't be tanked and with this gear my guess is they would instakill you on MP8+?
  • #13
    The short answer is 20 APOC
  • #14
    Quote from Bagstone

    9 is waaaaaaaaaaaay too much. 9 means you can completely stunlock even single targets - not necessary.

    I'm usually around 6, and I leave Diamond Skin out of the rotation on uber Ghom and uber Siegebreaker MP7/8; it's not perfect stunlock but they attack so rarely that my LoH is sufficient and the small window of opportunity for them to make an attack is usually not enough for anything nasty. With a value of 6 in that formula I sometimes manage to keep Ghom+Rakanoth completely stunlocked (i.e., no poison clouds). 9 means you spent too much on stunlock and sacrificed an unnecessary amount of DPS.

    Windsurfer21: can you tell your stats or link your gear? I'm trying to get a higher value just "for fun", but I feel that everything beyond 6 or 7 costs me too much EHP/DPS.


    sure. But i'll be the first to admit that I don't know what i'm doing.

    My junk yard wizard: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Windsurfer-1740/hero/23993821

    Most is this gear is borrowed from my monk. The rest is just stuff that i couldnt sell for a much or had sitting around. I was just messing around to see if could get the numbers to do perma stun on Ubers. The Andariel's Visage just droped last night and i wanted to see if it was enought to get me to perma stun.
  • #15
    Quote from Bagstone

    9 is waaaaaaaaaaaay too much. 9 means you can completely stunlock even single targets - not necessary.

    I'm usually around 6, and I leave Diamond Skin out of the rotation on uber Ghom and uber Siegebreaker MP7/8; it's not perfect stunlock but they attack so rarely that my LoH is sufficient and the small window of opportunity for them to make an attack is usually not enough for anything nasty. With a value of 6 in that formula I sometimes manage to keep Ghom+Rakanoth completely stunlocked (i.e., no poison clouds). 9 means you spent too much on stunlock and sacrificed an unnecessary amount of DPS.

    Windsurfer21: can you tell your stats or link your gear? I'm trying to get a higher value just "for fun", but I feel that everything beyond 6 or 7 costs me too much EHP/DPS.


    Agreed, 9 is way too much and not needed, especially if you use diamond shards. I was around 6.5 when I made some plots for my DPS simulator and the results indicated I was at a very good point for a balance of high effective dps with good LoH returns and FN uptime. Based on my results, I had just reached the point where my AP returns were enough to let me cast WW and EB as often as possible, which isn't supposed to happen until you get to 8-9 from the equation, but as said above, it doesn't take into account FN, EB, or DS.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #16
    Quote from Windsurfer21

    I was just messing around to see if could get the numbers to do perma stun on Ubers.


    And, are you? (And if yes on which level)? I don't see any LoH on you, how do you stay alive? And your EHP is definitely a bit low... well, like you said, it's a junk character, so it's okay ;-)

    If you were serious about giving this character a bit more love and want to get to higher stunlock values, you can do this by neglecting DPS (and still gain some EHP). For example, if you get a really low DPS chantodo with IAS instead of vit as random roll, you can get up to 1.80 APS which will give your APS a huge jump. Get some allres on bracers and allres/vit/life%/armor on belt (I gain 80k EHP just from my belt). That is, keep looking for this stuff when playing with your monk ;-)
  • #17
    Quote from Bagstone

    you can get up to 1.80 APS which will give your APS a huge jump


    Max APS on chantos is 1.79 (10% IAS max for some reason, though I swear it should be able to roll 11% since I've seen 11% IAS wands, it also can't roll 9% for whatever reason).

    Also, he's already over the 2.73 breakpoint, I think (1.63*1.76 = 2.869). I'd recommend picking up a Storm Crow for APoC, LoH, and extra EHP. The problem with that is it drops him below the 2.73 breakpoint with the wand so he'd either need an IAS wand like you recommend or a new pair of gloves with 9% IAS (need 68IAS from gear to reach 2.73 with 1.63 APS wand), or some combination of 3% more IAS on gear. It might just be easier to drop down to the 2.5 breakpoint and focus on EHP (blackthorn pants + storm crow gives you enough LoH until you get over 100-150k dps or so). Otherwise, aside from lacking some EHP the gear set up isn't too bad.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #18
    I've got like 10 Apoc on my wiz, doing fine so far
  • #19
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Psychatog

    .... Am i doing this right?

    25 * 58 * .125 * 33 / 6 = 996.... I think I'm a little over lol. I only have 2.51 APS, no AS on ammy rings or helm, but I do Okay, also at 150k sheet dps


    It's .58 (58%), not 58. => 9.96.

    That is insane though... you could get rid of one of the 3 APoC pieces and get more DPS/EHP. At least switch it, you don't need more than 6 except for boss fights.

    Edit: about your gear, which MP level do you usually play and in which constellation (solo or group and if yes, which setup)? Are you actually farming with this build+gear and if yes, on which MP? What's the maximum uber level you can do?

    I personally would think that your EHP, LoH is a bit low. Especially Magdha and Leoric just can't be tanked and with this gear my guess is they would instakill you on MP8+?


    I already got a nice ring roll so I dont bother with ubers anymore. I have 24 machines and then i stopped bothering with A1 / A2 keys and just stuck to running alkaizer (i have like 70 a3 keys lol). I farm on mp0, but my EHP is 330k, and I can swap to prismatic to get it even higher. Once I hit 100 ill be switching my helms gem to +18% life, add that to 5 more levels of vit and my EHP should be just fine. With that in mind, I shouldnt have an issue doing MP10 ubers (maybe a vit gem in my boots. I also intend on swapping around a few items).
  • #20
    Quote from Gath

    I've got like 10 Apoc on my wiz, doing fine so far


    youll starv AP against 1-2 mobs constantly, not very efficient.
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