CMWW question

  • #1
    good morning everybody

    ever since i started doin some goupplay lately i was looking for some approved party-builds.
    Apparently (i have know experience with this and therefor am fully trusting the community) CMWW still kicks ass and remains #1 concerning wiz-groupplay.

    that beeing the case i have been looking around in this forums, if there there may be a thread with some figures concerning CMWW stat-threshold.

    As u may have figured, i havent found something like that yet^^

    so my question is: what are desirable goals for a CMWW wiz according to ur experience (concerning the following stats)?:

    APoC, CritC., CritDmg, AS and DPS/EHP.

    If it is any help. u can also check my wiz and tell me what item-upgrades would be most helpfull
    --> Battle-Tag: BikeIsGone#2957 (EU-Servers)
  • #2
    just sayin.. there is no fixed stat for any class.. you need as much of thsoe as you can..
  • #3
    Link to your profile: http://eu.battle.net...957/hero/849631

    The most important thing is to be aware of the WW ticks - there are certain thresholds for IAS: http://us.battle.net...94871641?page=1

    Additionally, there is a formula going around that lets you calculate how good your stunlock is: http://www.diablofan...-to-sustain-cm/

    Some important notes about these. Firstly, the formula says you should aim for a value of 9 for perfect stunlock. This is not true and I can permafreeze ubers on any MP with a value of 7 (49.5CC, 19APoC, 2.76aps). One of the reasons is that this formula completely forgets to take other procs into account, like Explosive Blast. However, the formula helped me a lot in the past comparing the impact of the different values (CC/IAS/APoC) when switching items. It's good to have an estimate on the different impact of stats.

    Secondly, there are many different opinions about IAS. I feel that you have only limited choice when gearing up APoC: weapon and offhand, because there is no really good APoC helm that I like and that could replace my Mempo. Similarly, crit chance is also quite limited; you should have at least 40 CC for CMWW, but getting more than 53 or so is probably almost impossible. You can do the math how small the impact is. Therefore, when I felt that my stunlock was not good enough, especially against single ubers, I started stacking IAS. With > 2.75 aps I can keep Ghom completely stunned for the whole fight, there won't be a single poison cloud; my group loves this. Big "however": many people on these forums are leaving the IAS train and said they are perfectly getting along with less APS, even less than 2. I have no idea how, and I personally couldn't, but the conclusion is: there are formulas, there is theorycrafting, but in the end you just have to go out and try what works best for you.

    Critdmg (and other pure dmg stats) are secondary for me, as I'm the tank of the group and keeping Kulle, Ghom, and Leoric in stunlock is priority #1 for me. As for the EHP, it obviously depends on your MP level; we're doing ubers on MP7/MP8 and with 400-450k EHP it's a joke, I never die. I think you should also not forget to get enough LoH (800-1200, again, depends a lot on other factors).
  • #4
    I'm currently running with 2.5 APS, 20 APoC, 46% crit (49 with scoundrel), 600 resists and 4400 armor unbuffed, and 890 LoH or so. I think it ends up being 263k EHP unbuffed or 332k buffed with barb. I run with shocking aspect to farm keys MP6-7 and I can use it for ubers with a barb giving armor/res buff. MP7 was a little scary with shocking aspect though, so if dps isn't an issue, I'll probably switch to Pinpoint barrier for MP7+, or force armor for MP10, though I haven't tried anything above MP7 yet.

    I happen to be one of the main people saying that CMWW works fine with lower attack speeds and I started with 1.5-1.7 APS. I ran MP7 ubers with that attack speed and the same LoH with 40% crit and it worked pretty well, using prismatic armor or pinpoint barrier. I can't permafreeze any of the bosses but I stutter freeze them enough that they don't really do much. Ghom still spits out a fair amount of gas though, but with my LoH I didn't have an issue.

    My opinion of goals for CM wizards, unbuffed:
    40% crit
    16 APoC
    4000 Armor
    600 resists
    2.5 APS+100k dps+
    4500-5k armor&700-800+ resists and higher dps
    2.74 APS?
    in that order, though obviously more is better and somewhere in there I recommend getting more like 20 APoC

    To start, 16 APoC with 40% crit and as much armor and resists as possible should work for lower MP levels. Once you get around 4k armor and 600 or so resists, then you should work on increasing dps and attack speed, hopefully both at the same time. 2.5 APS is the first major breakpoint to aim for, which can be tricky to do while maintaining your EHP. With 2.5 APS and 100k dps you can easily farm MP6-7 for keys and you should be a pretty good contributer to uber runs.

    After 2.5 APS is the 2.74 breakpoint that everyone on the official forums raves about. My theorycrafting tells me you'll see a decent jump in LoH returns per second and a small increase in frost nova uptime for few or single targets. However, my findings so far indicate that it might not be all that it's cracked up to be, especially if you have a significant amount of latency in game. With 100 ms latency or reaction time between button mashing, I'm observing an effective dps decrase when increasing APS from 2.5 to 2.74. The actual amount depends on your other stats but in the end if you have to lose char sheet dps to get to 2.74, I don't think it's worth it. If you gain dps to get there you'll hopefully break even on effective dps so as long as you don't sacrifice defensive stats to get there it might be worth it. Also, to obtain that breakpoint you have to use much more expensive gear, like Chanto's OH with APoC, which can be hard to fit in while keeping high dps, or just plain cost too much depending on your budget.

    That being said, I haven't actually reached the breakpoint yet, mostly because I don't have the money to buy the APoC chanto OH and I don't want to lose a lot of dps from switching to a chanto wand with IAS. I might buy a couple new pieces if I can sell a couple items I just found so i can hit that 2.74 breakpoint and find for myself just how well it works in practice.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
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    My Wizard
  • #5
    I have a nice Chantodo weapon (1100+ aps, 10 APoC, 10% IAS and thus 1.78 APS), therefore the set bonus of Chantodo OH compensates for the loss of average damage compared to my Oculus. Also, the -7% elite damage set bonus is pretty nice and often underestimated. It's simply a question of what your goal is; my group is perfectly fine if I have a bit less DPS, as long as the stunlock is permanent and I don't die. But I agree with all what you said - if you're looking for more DPS and are ok with having a "stuttered" stunlock, don't go for Chantodo, 2.75 aps, and so on but do exactly what Loroese said ;-)

    Oh, and of course check out Loroese's amazing Matlab CM calculator, link in his sig: http://www.diablofans.com/topic/72851-wizard-cm-dps-simulator-release-version/
    How could I forget linking this thread that contains more information about CMWW than any other thread in this forum :-)
  • #6
    Yes, you should check out Loroese's CM Wiz thread, it's awesome. I got a copy of Matlab from my cousin just to run his simulator; it's bloody invaluable to see how changes in each stat affect things like your effective DPS, Frost Nova uptime, Diamond Skin uptime, etc.
  • #7
    I thought my gear would be good enough for running a CM build, but when i tried zoltun kulle at mp5 i got my ass handed^^. then i checked Bagstones linked formula and got a value of 5 (4,95).

    Unfortunately i cant check out Loroeses calculator (since i dont have a copy of ML yet) but i DO APPRECIATE your input onto this matter.

    I really have underestimated the gearingprocess for those CM builds as they seem to be determined by much more values than just pure DPS (like archon builds). Initially i thought i will never ever run one of those "boring" builds, but now, that i have read a bit deeper into that theory i acutally think, that i will give it a try.
  • #8
    It is possible to tank with a value of 5. As I mentioned - the formula isn't everything, and the values are insane (you definitely don't need 9, it would be insane and cost too much DPS). You can compensate with more LoH, EHP, etc.
    But if you feel you want to get more permanent stunlock, it helps (at least it helped me).

    About the "boring" - what exactly do you call boring? For me personally, kiting builds are boring - I like the thrill of being a glass canon (unless I'm tanking for my group). If I play Archon, I sometimes like to step up the MP levels and even though I get my ass kicked, it at least feels better and not as if I'm killing small helpless bunnies. It's never boring if you're playing on the brink of dying, and you can do that with any build :-)
  • #9
    Yeah, I think it's a fun build! I don't play it all the time, but still....

    If you want I can run some simulations for you, if you give me the values for the stats. Of course, Loroese is much more experienced at this than I am.
  • #10
    Quote from maka

    Yeah, I think it's a fun build! I don't play it all the time, but still....

    If you want I can run some simulations for you, if you give me the values for the stats. Of course, Loroese is much more experienced at this than I am.


    thanks for the offer but i just got a ML copy myself. and big props for that simulator to Loroese; it is AMAZING

    back on topic: so after playing around with some values i figured (as it was already mentioned) that post 2.5 aps (but constant CC) the FN uptime and LoH-coef. are raised by a considerable amount.

    Now my question is: what is the easiest way to get up there? Guess a chantodos set would do the trick, but were do u guys then expect to get the LoH / LS from? - a good dps chantodos MH with both LS and IAS are quite expensive and i dont think i will get one of those anytime soon.
  • #11
    You can get LoH from Blackthorne's pants (highly suggested for CMWW), amulet (can roll up to 957 LoH), rings and Storm Crow helm. Btw, did you mean LS on Chantodo's? Afaik, LS doesn't really pay off for CMWW and LoH is always better (but my DPS is not that high, maybe someone who has really high DPS experience with CMWW can say if life steal works for them.
  • #12
    I've been around since the begining of the game, but only recently started using a CM build. Kinda weird trying it for the first time after 1.0.5, but so far no complaints! The build came up as a viable option for tanking Ubers on MPlvl5-8 and taking out high HP goblins (keep them stunfrozen).

    I must say that my gear isn't really set up to maximize the CM build. I still have a few pieces to replace and need more AS% boost. I'll try to get a link of my profile up soon.

    (*edit)
    Link: us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Yoshi-1198/hero/14745890

    Im currently running with:

    paper dps: 110K
    52% cc (using pinpoint barrier)
    1.7as (low, I know)
    10APOC
    30 max AP
    3% lifesteal(from weapon)
    Astral presence passive (for extra AP regen, since my APOC is medium)

    Though some of these stats are low, I find myself doing pretty well on runs. I hardly run out of arcane power and when I do, I just back out and let my AP regen quickly with "astral presence" passive. I don't run with LOH though since of the reduced procs from last patch. I have done a lot of tests of LOH vs LS with my 100K+ dps and find LS to be superior. This is probably because LS scales with dmg and works with every spell,with every hit you do. Don't get me wrong LOH is still very useful and effective, especially for those under 100K dps. Having a mix of LOH and LS would be awesome, thats what I would like to have for myself.

    As for Attack speed, I only run at 1.7 which I would consider to be on the low-medium side and it still works pretty well. I think investing in more AS is a most and would drasticly improve my CM procs (and LOH/LS).

    So overall I havent died yet and there is about a 1-2 second delay before I can recast all my spells. Considering my low AS and medium APOC and proc nerfs from last patch, id say im doing pretty well. I think the 52% CC helps balance it out.
  • #13
    Buying a chanto's set is the easiest way to get to the higher breakpoints. You can't buy one with LS/LoH and IAS because the wand only rolls 1 random, so it's usually either IAS or socket. Personally I'd go with the socket for more dps. You can still reach the 2.73 breakpoint with that but you don't sacrifice a ton of dps. If you get a max APS Chantos, 1.65, you need 66% IAS from gear to get to 2.73 and you have 2 rings, amulet, chest, belt, gloves, helm, and OH and bracers to get it from, so 8 9 sources and 3 of them need to be 9% IAS while the other 5 can be 8%, so some other combination to reach 66% total. You only need 52% for the 2.5 APS breakpoint, which is easily done with just rings, amulet, gloves, belt, and chest. That's where I'm at, with a 11% IAS dagger, and still using a storm crow.

    As others have mentioned, Blackthorn pants and storm crow are great for LoH, and dirt cheap. If you're aiming for the 2.73 breakpoint you can still use a mempo or visage if you get IAS on all the other slots. you'll have to use a andy's visage or mempo, so you can't get LoH from the helm, meaning you'd need rings and/or amulet. One great source is the Blackthorns amulet, but to find one with crit will cost you quite a bit. It comes with IAS, Life%, and LoH standard, and gives a 100 vit bonus with the pants, which is pretty nice.


    Regarding LoH vs Life Steal
    The higher your attack speed the better off LoH is because of the tic rate from WW. I made a plot in my simulator thread with some values of LoH returns for attack speeds from 1.83 to 3.23 APS and there's a huge jump right around 2.5, with other smaller jumps around each breakpoint. At 2.5 APS with 49% crit and 20 APoC you gain about 8x your LoH value every second against a single target. The math says that at 100k dps, you do about 400-600k effective dps that is affected by life steal (storm armor and shocking aspect give no life returns from LS), let's just say 500 to make it easy, meaning 100k worth of leechable dps. With 3% life steal that's 3000 life per second. With a 8x multiplier that's equivalent to around 400 LoH. In other words, if you get 800 LoH from gear, that's equivalent to 6% Life Steal.

    However, that depends highly on attack speed, as indicated by my plots in the other thread (see post #2 or one of the last posts). At low attack speeds Life Steal wins out, as yoshiboi said above. At higher dps, Life steal becomes more competetive, so 800 LoH is only worth about 3% LS at 200k dps. Then again most high geared CM wizards run at 2.73 or 3.01 APS so LoH is still slightly better even then because the multiple is more like 9-10x for those breakpoints.


    @yoshiboi, on a side note, I know you didn't ask for any advice, but if you swap your helm for a storm crow, you'll get yourself to 19-20 APoC and the char sheet dps loss will likely be made up for by the extra APoC. With pinpoint barrier you'd gain about 20% effective dps so unless you lose 20% dps from swiching out the visage, it's a net dps gain. I'd also swap glass cannon for cold blooded since it will give you around 10-15% dps increase but doesn't hurt your EHP.


    EDIT: added bracers to IAS info since Prowlers have IAS.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #14
    Quote from Loroese
    Then again most high geared CM wizards run at 2.73 or 3.01 APS so LoH is still slightly better even then because the multiple is more like 9-10x for those breakpoints.


    Holy crap, that's possible? I thought I was decently geared, but man....
  • #15
    Quote from Psychatog

    Quote from Loroese
    Then again most high geared CM wizards run at 2.73 or 3.01 APS so LoH is still slightly better even then because the multiple is more like 9-10x for those breakpoints.


    Holy crap, that's possible? I thought I was decently geared, but man....


    69% IAS with a 1.79 APS chanto's = 3.0251 APS, so it can be done, you just have to sacrifice a socket for the higher breakpoint, though I think many people are starting to conclude it's not worth the dps loss from dropping the socket for the IAS on the wand.

    I forgot to mention IAS from bracers, but I edited it above. In short, you can get to 2.73 APS while using a storm crow or mempo. I think the max IAS on gear is 81%, not counting inna's pants or legacy zuni boots since those tend to kill your EHP.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #16
    Reply to: Loroese

    Thank you for the nice information you posted. Since im new to the build im up for any advice. Sadly I know about my helm problem. A stormcrow fits the build description perfectly but I'd still prefer my Anda's and hopefully a cc/as mempo in the future. As for the blackthorn pants, I might look into them and grab a pair. I'd also like to get a Lacunis bracers with cc & as but those are expensive and will have to wait. I also plan on upgrading my rings so they have both cc/cd/as and a witching hour which also comes with as, that should put me near 2.3aps.

    As for LOH vs LS, Im not too sure about the math but what you are saying makes sense. I will try to add a bit more LOH to my gear set. Also I will definetly try the cold blooded passive and see how that goes. Do you happen to know if the bonus dmg from frozen enemies works with allies in the same group?
  • #17
    I've heard the cold blooded damage only works for you, but the frost nova rune works for the group. I haven't tested so I can't confirm for sure.
    Wizard DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
    My Wizard
  • #18
    If you're low on budget, forget about Witching Hour and Lacunis for now. They are way too expensive if you want to get either of these with decent EHP. Actually, I found both these slots extremely good for getting a decent amount of EHP (allres, vit, armor, plus some int for dps and crit (bracers) and pickup (belt)).

    About the last question - what do you mean by that? If your allies freeze mobs, Cold Blooded works on these enemies too, i.e., you deal 20% more damage to them. That's why a freezing scoundrel with Buriza is so nice as a CMWW companion. However, Cold Blooded only affects you - your allies' damage will not be increased, regardless of who froze the mobs ;-)
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