1.0.4: The end of Critical Mass?

  • #42
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    So really, don't take this too seriously guys ;)

    Please lock inflammatory troll threads

    I allowed this to stay open because I figured either people would take it lightly and laugh at the whole drama from the video (I kinda did), or they would want to discuss the changes to Wicked Wind (which is what is kinda happening, comparing it with Barbarian's WW).

    But I see your point.


    Fair enough. I'll admit the WW discussion is constructive in so far as explaining the mechanics.

    Quote from KageKaze

    You keep quoting blue posts but don't seem to be quite grasping the argument here.


    I think the repetition of wind skills being popular has caused many a simple-minded forum goer to loose their rational capacity. In fairness to the poor fellow, I doubt he has a barb. Although he may simply be trolling. It's hard to tell these days.
  • #43
    Quote from zach3427

    "We were faced with a choice: we could either reduce the proc coefficient, or we could make it so these skills could not trigger the procs on Legendary items at all. We opted for the former because it seemed like getting a Legendary with a proc effect but never seeing it trigger would be very disappointing. Regardless, having well-balanced proc coefficients on all skills is not only better for Legendaries, but also for the long-term of the game."


    You keep quoting things you clearly don't understand.
  • #44
    well. I feel this guy is kinda getting singled out here (which he isnt helping his own cause), but id like to support his opinion.

    I myself am a wwspeced barb. I do think its overpowered and does deserve a nerf /cry. Anyways, to the point.

    This guy seems to be pushing the fact that blizzard is nerfing cmww due to its high proc rate with legendaries. The current proc rate is .25 which is getting halved in 1.04. I think thats a little much of a nerf but ive yet to use it so, we shall see. This guy, however, pushes the fact that a cmww can have 1-8 tornados going at once? well, lets do some basic numbers here with my current knowledge set on ww barbs because i am not comfortable enough with the mechanics of cm"ww".

    So, some forum poster did a huge theory crafting session on runlikethewind and posted his numbers. he found that it is possible to have 1 tornado from sprint proc 30 times with enough ias. Im expecting the average person is more along the lines of 15-20 (which is where im at). So, that is giving you 5 procs a second lets say. if u can get 4 tornados on a single mob (lets just deal with a single target for now), that is 20 procs a second. I have a 48% unbuffed crit chance, 61% with buffs (my gear isnt that great either). So, 20x.61=12.2 crits per second x .2 coeficient = 2.44 procs per second. Now, we must take into account that you can get up to 6ish tornados at once, someone could have higher ias easily if they wanted, more mobs, higher crit chance, ect. I run opca which i belive is a good indicator of my proc chances as its a cooldown, and agaisnt 3 mobs, i can cast it every 4 seconds with ease, agaisnt 1 target its harder but enough.

    What i think this guy is trying to do is use the logic for the change to the cmww wiz (procs like a mofo) and applying it to the wwspec barb which can proc like a mofo.

    I have to add this in even though offtopic a bit. I thought the ww spec was op ezmode until i tried to get 2 buddies to run the spec with my same exact gear and they couldnt pull it off after 5 hours of practice each. they couldnt genorate fury, they couldnt sustain it, they didnt understand the sequences, and would end up just bashing 90% of the time. Also, when i was explaining the build, i thought i was writing a fucking novel haha. It really makes you take into account the amount of things you must process and execute for this build to work. For the cmww spec, ive seen the crappiest players making it work
  • #45
    thanks.. for that..
  • #46
    Quote from agadabagada

    I have to add this in even though offtopic a bit. I thought the ww spec was op ezmode until i tried to get 2 buddies to run the spec with my same exact gear and they couldnt pull it off after 5 hours of practice each. they couldnt genorate fury, they couldnt sustain it, they didnt understand the sequences, and would end up just bashing 90% of the time. Also, when i was explaining the build, i thought i was writing a fucking novel haha. It really makes you take into account the amount of things you must process and execute for this build to work. For the cmww spec, ive seen the crappiest players making it work


    That isn't off-topic in the least. That's the point. Sprint has a lower coefficient and the tornado/ww build in general is much harder to use effectively. I wouldn't bemoan a sprint nerf if that's what happened next, but frankly equating the wizard and barb builds on the basis of "tornado = tornado," is what got him in trouble.
  • #47
    that's also your problem for taking everything so literal..

    you know I know that tornado/=tornado.

    was just trying to throw into the mix.. that the barb tornadoes are going to be even deadlier next patch.
  • #48
    Quote from zach3427

    that's also your problem for taking everything so literal..

    you know I know that tornado/=tornado.

    was just trying to throw into the mix.. that the barb tornadoes are going to be even deadlier next patch.


    You know we can't simply assume you are aware of the subtle differences like that when you blatantly cut-paste the same blue text twice, right?

    Tornado barbs will be pretty slick with some of the new legendaries. I wouldn't be shocked if they got a review later on. Having said that, the way the two builds work -right now- ET stands out far more than sprint. The reasons why have already been addressed.
  • #49
    sorry, but was just trying to point out the only reason that they are nerfing the tornadoes is because of the new legendaries.. and if that's the case.. then why aren't they nerfing the barb nadoes.. even if they are a little harder to handle and only .05 less proc coefficient?..
  • #50
    Quote from agadabagada

    well. I feel this guy is kinda getting singled out here (which he isnt helping his own cause), but id like to support his opinion.

    I myself am a wwspeced barb. I do think its overpowered and does deserve a nerf /cry. Anyways, to the point.

    This guy seems to be pushing the fact that blizzard is nerfing cmww due to its high proc rate with legendaries. The current proc rate is .25 which is getting halved in 1.04. I think thats a little much of a nerf but ive yet to use it so, we shall see. This guy, however, pushes the fact that a cmww can have 1-8 tornados going at once? well, lets do some basic numbers here with my current knowledge set on ww barbs because i am not comfortable enough with the mechanics of cm"ww".

    So, some forum poster did a huge theory crafting session on runlikethewind and posted his numbers. he found that it is possible to have 1 tornado from sprint proc 30 times with enough ias. Im expecting the average person is more along the lines of 15-20 (which is where im at). So, that is giving you 5 procs a second lets say. if u can get 4 tornados on a single mob (lets just deal with a single target for now), that is 20 procs a second. I have a 48% unbuffed crit chance, 61% with buffs (my gear isnt that great either). So, 20x.61=12.2 crits per second x .2 coeficient = 2.44 procs per second. Now, we must take into account that you can get up to 6ish tornados at once, someone could have higher ias easily if they wanted, more mobs, higher crit chance, ect. I run opca which i belive is a good indicator of my proc chances as its a cooldown, and agaisnt 3 mobs, i can cast it every 4 seconds with ease, agaisnt 1 target its harder but enough.

    What i think this guy is trying to do is use the logic for the change to the cmww wiz (procs like a mofo) and applying it to the wwspec barb which can proc like a mofo.

    I have to add this in even though offtopic a bit. I thought the ww spec was op ezmode until i tried to get 2 buddies to run the spec with my same exact gear and they couldnt pull it off after 5 hours of practice each. they couldnt genorate fury, they couldnt sustain it, they didnt understand the sequences, and would end up just bashing 90% of the time. Also, when i was explaining the build, i thought i was writing a fucking novel haha. It really makes you take into account the amount of things you must process and execute for this build to work. For the cmww spec, ive seen the crappiest players making it work


    A very well written response and it shows accurately where there might be causes for concern. You may have noticed, however, that your proved how the spec is very much not "Overpowered". Anything that's Overpowered is usually something that can be done easily to great benefit, essentially requiring little to now input or skill on the side of the user. The WW spec requires a great deal of input from the player and good management of cooldowns as well as knowing the logistics of the abilities and how they work to properly place the tornados and get the most damage out of them.

    From your argument it also seems that most of the concerns are really with higher levels of gear (high IAS or crit). Anything that requires a high gear set is not overpowered. Blizzard has even stated that builds made from high amounts of gear or specific kinds of gear will typically not get nerfed. I've tried using WW barb and I found myself dying quite a bit in Act 3, but I probably didn't have the gear for it.

    This leads me to believe that the build is very sound and not considered a problem by Blizzard especially since they speicfically mentioned they won't be changing it. The WW rune for Energy Twister, however, was gaining a high amount of procs. It has a better coefficient than the Barb's skills and you can place a few of them down to get a lot of procs in a location you want without fail. This makes the skill have a much lower skill requirement and is what makes the skill "overpowered" in this regard. It might have not been a problem on its own and they might have even left it alone if only the legendaries were being considered, but I am fairly sure they wanted to bring down the super effectiveness of the Critical Mass passive. I'm sure all these factors got concidered when these changes were made.

    Quote from zach3427

    that's also your problem for taking everything so literal..

    you know I know that tornado/=tornado.

    was just trying to throw into the mix.. that the barb tornadoes are going to be even deadlier next patch.


    I'm sorry, sir, but the problem is that your agruments were so general and came off as general moaning that it becomes very hard to make heads or tails of what your real argument is. You wouldn't respond with specific arguments and often you just quote an entire blue post WITH NO CONTEXT that we are only left to assume what you mean.

    If you want to make an argument about something, for or against it, then look at the person who I quoted above you. It was well written and contained information on what might be a concern. You don't have to post overly detailed or long, but put some information into your posts so we aren't left guessing what you mean. It's not our problem that we take things a certain way when you aren't giving us anything to think otherwise.

    I apologize if I come off as an ass for this reply, but discussions are a two way street. We cannot have proper discourse with overgeneralizations.
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
    Come on by and comment on YouTube or chat on Twitch, twitch chat is often watched
  • #51
    Quote from zach3427

    even if they are a little harder to handle and only .05 less proc coefficient?..


    Clearly that was enough to dissuade them from nerfing for the time being.
  • #52
    Quote from zach3427

    sorry, but was just trying to point out the only reason that they are nerfing the tornadoes is because of the new legendaries.. and if that's the case.. then why aren't they nerfing the barb nadoes.. even if they are a little harder to handle and only .05 less proc coefficient?..


    They are not 'a little harder' they are a LOT harder to handle. To make the spec shine you have to manage resources and buffs. If you fail at either you will end up out of Fury and possibly in a bad location. It takes a lot more skill to play a WW barb than it does to put down a single WW toarndo from a wizard. Skill often comes into play when blizzard considers balance.
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
    Come on by and comment on YouTube or chat on Twitch, twitch chat is often watched
  • #53
    Im quite suprised at how my post was handled XD. I was getting ready to be thrown into the sharks B:.

    Anyways, I do think the ww spec is op as i have 4.2k armor, 500 res all, 30k hp, 48% crit chance, 900 loh, 0 ias, 330 crit damage (with passives, but not buffs). I just facerolled to inferno diablo, taking on 3 elite packs (sucubus, charging angles, meteor guys) all at once in a 4 man party while they "skipped". I had 2.4k loh, and 150 crit damage using opca instead of bash. To me, the spec is far less gear dependent but much more gear specific (crit chance, axe, loh, minimal armor/hp/res all)

    Also, out of sheer curiosity, could someone post a link or quickly summerize the mechanics of wickedwind to me? when i cast it, it ticks once a second but i sware to go it procs cm a ton more. So thats why i was unsure about the skill when comparing in my previous one.

    @kagekaze I liked ur bit on the "taking into account player skill" into the balance. stupid me never really thought about that one. I still think its op but the skill factor being input is higher than most builds imo so that could be the balance.

    Also, people should call it the sonic spec or Taz spec, not wwspec. just saying :)
  • #54
    from what I understand wicked wind hits so much that it can't show all of the damage.. so you're crit'ing even though you're not seeing yellow text?
  • #55
    Quote from agadabagada

    Also, people should call it the sonic spec or Taz spec, not wwspec. just saying :)


    I nominate Usain Bolt spec.
  • #56
    Quote from Zakaz

    Quote from agadabagada

    Also, people should call it the sonic spec or Taz spec, not wwspec. just saying :)


    I nominate Usain Bolt spec.


    LOL well played man hahahaahha
  • #57
    My main is a Wizard and currently I am using this spec. It is too strong and I will wait for the patch release before I judge the announced change. Hopefully it will still be viable due to the proc-coefficient of secondary spells (e.g. Explosive Blast, Meteor etc.). People should be more patient and not always predict the end of this or that. In this case: OP is just a retard who wants Youtube-Clicks.
    Bandyto#2350
    EU
  • #58
    WW allows people to proc on-hit effects far more frequently and reliably than any other skill. Anyone who thinks that wasn't going to cause balance issue hasn't been paying attention.
  • #59
    The problem is that this spec is so much better than any other, that it becomes the only good spec. Why would I become a glass cannon and die repeatedly when I can take no damage and deal more damage with the exact same gear?

    I'm surprised anyone is still playing this game though. It is incredibly boring.
  • #60
    A player in the official forums has made some tests (basically he says he reduced his "crit chance" to match a lower "proc rate coefficient"). He says it's proof the build will be just fine after the patch. I wouldn't say it's an absolute proof (as he says), but his video is a pretty good indication that the build should be fine.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6352685335

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1txeJqsvws
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9Mb0yhljcQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXVO1Gt-70k
  • #61
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    A player in the official forums has made some tests (basically he says he reduced his "crit chance" to match a lower "proc rate coefficient"). He says it's proof the build will be just fine after the patch. I wouldn't say it's an absolute proof (as he says), but his video is a pretty good indication that the build should be fine.


    Well, Blizzard themselves said the build was fine and they were more concerned with the proc-frequency in general rather than its specific combination with CM.

    It's probably worth pointing out that:

    1. It was WW's combination of reliability and frequency that was the problem, not the frequency alone.

    2. WW+CM + Frost Nova requires a certain number of crits within FN's duration. This isn't a linear function of crit chance (it's a Poisson Distribution, for the wiki-inclined)... so a 50% reduction in proc chance doesn't mean you need to double your crit rate to get back to where you were.

    So there's that.
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