Since making that post I've learned that the numbers I listed there were actually only the minimum damage per hit for the mobs, and that all mobs have a damage range. Apparently the way it works is that there is a base damage for all mobs of the same level, and then individual mobs get modifiers to the base damage and spread. So, for example, the base damage for lvl 63 mobs pre-patch was 113k, but the heavy hitting mobs such as phase beasts have a 1.5x modifier and 0.5x spread modifier so they hit for 170-226k. This information is taken from a post found here: http://www.reddit.co..._36_mlvl_63_44/
Therefore, my original post was inaccurate in that the numbers I provided were for the minimum damage of the mobs and did not take into account their damage spread.
However, now we know the base damage for lvl 63 mobs to be 63,615 after the patch 1.0.3 nerf. Therefore, phasebeasts and the other hardest hitting mobs (besides the avoidable melee attacks like mallet lords and the big skeleton axe windup hit) will now have a damage range of 95,423 - 127,230. Given that topend damage of 127k, you now need just over 94k EHP in order to always get a full 35% resist out of force armor.
This does not include any additional modifier that probably exists for champions/elites though. I am trying to find out what that modifier is and when I do I'll update this post with it.
EDIT: Based on this post: http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/va9sp/103_inferno_damage_nerfs_mlvl_62_36_mlvl_63_44/c52qfvn?context=3 there is a report that champion/elite mobs do 25% more damage than their normal counterparts. I will try to confirm this in-game. If anybody else has any data on that, it would be great. If that is the case, you would need 117.5k EHP to get a full resist from an elite phasebeast / similarly hard hitting mob.
At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.
For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.
Another way of looking at the numbers is that Act 2+ was nerfed by ~36% and Act 3/4 was nerfed by an additional ~12% (relatively speaking).
Looking at the numbers for monster levels 60-63, we can see that damage output roughly doubles with each act past hell now:
At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.
For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.
thats true it may still be better to go with force armor, but now the prismatic armor is not such a crazy idea, given that you can get things like string of ears and use blur passive, that would give u good jump on EHP at least against melee, then u can maybe get a stormshield to help against elites and stack on some block to help mitigate the damage you take, it might actually work. Sure you would have to give up on things like glass cannon and an off hand source, but it just goes to show it is now possible to live without force armor(although your dps will still suck unfortunately).
How have you guys handled reflect mobs? Even act2 elites willl drain my HP pool quickly just attacking with blizzard. Grant it I've only partied since the update so far. I guess I just need more res all.
Off the top of my head stats are:
23k HP
315-380 resist?
4500 armor (or more)
57k damage (37% crit chance and 290% dmg...i think 2008 INT)
Down to 1.4 or 1.5 APS depending on the ring
Extras: 8500 health globes....very small amount of HP regen/LoH and 12% move speed.
I have no res all on shoulder or bracers, so I could pick up 100-120 there. If I were to grab more res all to get mr in the 400s, would I be OK to drop VIT if I use prismatic to get even higher? Or would keeping force armor be the way to go.
Also, I've been using blizzard/arcane hydra build for slowing and blowimg up mobs in ac3/ponies for a while.
Dropped force armor today. Will never look back. Those axe skeletons in act 3 for instance hit me for about 30% of my hp with prismatic. Reflect damage, poison or molten are fairly harmless now instead.
I run 38k hp, about 500 average resist before prismatic, 42k dps (2hander, no IAS). Also droped enchanter for hp regen of templar, it is so much more effective now since mobs hit for less and the regen kicks in.
I will have to try this. The other thing my post doesn't take in to account is acts 1/2. Since it appears that the patch nerfed act 3, it might be more viable to run acts 1 or 2 at this point anyways and prismatic armor will be better there.
How have you guys handled reflect mobs? Even act2 elites willl drain my HP pool quickly just attacking with blizzard. Grant it I've only partied since the update so far. I guess I just need more res all.
The easiest way to handle a reflect damage mob is to buy an amulet with 500-600+ Life on hit and just swap it on against reflect damage champ packs.
At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.
For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.
That is true, but at the same time with the prismatic rune you can take single big hits without getting one-shot. I'll still use Force Armor because I was already pretty close to not being able to get one-shot by anything pre-nerf, but if you're having troubles with say Diablo's fireball one-shotting you Prismatic can help you to just about survive it. So you go from being 3-shot by 80% of all attacks and 1-shot by 20% to being 2-shot by 50% and 3- to 5-shot by 50%. Numbers are ofc not real, just wanted to give an idea of where I'm going.
Yeah that's what i was thinkinh. Have some LOH handy if needed. I have a +688 1H already just sittin in stash, so that with amulet should probably be enough. Thanks for the tip, will definitely be trying it.
My only beef is that blizzard doesn't give you LoH on every single tick...but the mobs reflect every single tick. I would think it should go both ways. Make the reflect amunt equal to the possible loh hit gain. But ill just not use blizzard on them if i'm duoing i guess
the way mobs are hitting now people could prolly go as low on HP as they can while going for max resists/armor/life regeneration and would still have enough EHP to hold the fort, they would be virtually unbeatable with like 2k life regeneration. It would be like the force armor before nerf, but in this case u wouldnt die to poison/fire whatever cuz u would have super high resists and armor while still having low life with high regeneration. Ofc this would be quite expensive though I suppose.
edit: doing some messing with the EHP calculator and considering that you now need like 90kEHP to make force armor work I realize you would need something like 280 vita(for 10k HP thats including ur 127 vita), some 3300 armor(no buffs/debuffs), and 650 All res(no buffs debuffs). All that with enchantress companion, though you would need quite a bit of life regeneration on top of that to make it cheesy.
I am trying to figure out the best way to handle this, because with the increased repair costs it has been pretty rough.
One route is prismatic armor and more EHP, but to get up to a reasonable EHP (~400ish) I would have to cut my dps down to 50% or even 33% of its current level.
The second alternative is getting some healing sources, which I think is what I am going to try, along with using an additional defensive skill. Using the templar and galvanizing ward automatically gives you about 500 life regen. If you can get another 500 from gear without giving much up and get to 1k life regen I think that will really make a big difference. Maybe a bit of life on hit as well. Then using illusionist and maybe even diamond skin on top of teleport and you've got a pretty survivable build without gimping your dps too bad.
Not sure if thats the best route or not but I'm thinking its worth a try.
I am trying to figure out the best way to handle this, because with the increased repair costs it has been pretty rough.
One route is prismatic armor and more EHP, but to get up to a reasonable EHP (~400ish) I would have to cut my dps down to 50% or even 33% of its current level.
The second alternative is getting some healing sources, which I think is what I am going to try, along with using an additional defensive skill. Using the templar and galvanizing ward automatically gives you about 500 life regen. If you can get another 500 from gear without giving much up and get to 1k life regen I think that will really make a big difference. Maybe a bit of life on hit as well. Then using illusionist and maybe even diamond skin on top of teleport and you've got a pretty survivable build without gimping your dps too bad.
Not sure if thats the best route or not but I'm thinking its worth a try.
Since making that post I've learned that the numbers I listed there were actually only the minimum damage per hit for the mobs, and that all mobs have a damage range. Apparently the way it works is that there is a base damage for all mobs of the same level, and then individual mobs get modifiers to the base damage and spread. So, for example, the base damage for lvl 63 mobs pre-patch was 113k, but the heavy hitting mobs such as phase beasts have a 1.5x modifier and 0.5x spread modifier so they hit for 170-226k. This information is taken from a post found here: http://www.reddit.co..._36_mlvl_63_44/
Therefore, my original post was inaccurate in that the numbers I provided were for the minimum damage of the mobs and did not take into account their damage spread.
However, now we know the base damage for lvl 63 mobs to be 63,615 after the patch 1.0.3 nerf. Therefore, phasebeasts and the other hardest hitting mobs (besides the avoidable melee attacks like mallet lords and the big skeleton axe windup hit) will now have a damage range of 95,423 - 127,230. Given that topend damage of 127k, you now need just over 94k EHP in order to always get a full 35% resist out of force armor.
This does not include any additional modifier that probably exists for champions/elites though. I am trying to find out what that modifier is and when I do I'll update this post with it.
EDIT: Based on this post: http://www.reddit.co...2qfvn?context=3 there is a report that champion/elite mobs do 25% more damage than their normal counterparts. I will try to confirm this in-game. If anybody else has any data on that, it would be great. If that is the case, you would need 117.5k EHP to get a full resist from an elite phasebeast / similarly hard hitting mob.
so you need 117k EHP to get a 35% hit from any mob? and if u get a little less then umight get some bleeding damage through force armor correct?
so you need 117k EHP to get a 35% hit from any mob? and if u get a little less then umight get some bleeding damage through force armor correct?
From an elite mob yes, since they hit for about 159k.
thats top damage right?(excluding heavy melee hitters which can be easily avoided).
I just tried something up guys, changed a few of my items that had tons of vita and put some with life regeneration. Now I have 18k HP, 450 allres/3150 armor(res and armor before glass cannon debuff and force armor), and with that I get around 107K EHP, also have a little over 1k life regeneration including templar and galvanizing ward. Im still trying to find some more all res gear to reach around 500 all res before glass cannon.
I went to try it out on a siege breaker run, it worked like a charm, the life quickly replenishes itself since I have low HP, also diamond skin effectiveness went up with it to the point where I can cast DS and stand in place casting my spells against some rares/elites. Also illusionist works even better now since I can cast teleport/mirror image nonstop when I get hit and the life is right back on top(using teleport atm cuz I wanna try azmodan later).
The first 3 packs of rares I faced all had invulnerable affix, so that was a good test, and only the second one gave me a little trouble(died like 2 times) only because the Vulnerable elite refused to kite after me only the minions would and they had molten. The other rares/champions I steamrolled, super cheesy, not to mention that reflects damage is now a joke for me.
PS: not really hard to get that kind of gear since I have that but I also have the luxury of mf stats on most of my items as well(no macro for me).
PS2: Just did a run of the spider queen and after that azmodan, died a couple of times to some nasty champions, other than that died only once to azmodan, but only because I screwed the teleport after a pool spawned right under my feet, and the second time killed him pretty easily. Ofc he just dropped crap even with me at 280%mf the whole fight...
I also went the same route and dropped some vit for life regen and resists. With galvanizing ward and templar I have around 1k/sec life regen as well, which is a pretty huge amount. Putting diamond skin on my bar also made a huge difference, but I am still trying to figure out how to fit everything in to my skill build now. With dying being such a penalty I really feel like I want illusionist, galvanizing ward, teleport and diamond skin, but that doesn't leave a lot of slots.
When you have to add all resist on the calculator which stat should I add? The mean between all resistance I see on details or the bonus all res from my gear?
what you see on details, consider physical and fire as those are the most common sources of damage, but look on it without any buffs or debuffs(glass cannon).
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Since making that post I've learned that the numbers I listed there were actually only the minimum damage per hit for the mobs, and that all mobs have a damage range. Apparently the way it works is that there is a base damage for all mobs of the same level, and then individual mobs get modifiers to the base damage and spread. So, for example, the base damage for lvl 63 mobs pre-patch was 113k, but the heavy hitting mobs such as phase beasts have a 1.5x modifier and 0.5x spread modifier so they hit for 170-226k. This information is taken from a post found here: http://www.reddit.co..._36_mlvl_63_44/
Therefore, my original post was inaccurate in that the numbers I provided were for the minimum damage of the mobs and did not take into account their damage spread.
However, now we know the base damage for lvl 63 mobs to be 63,615 after the patch 1.0.3 nerf. Therefore, phasebeasts and the other hardest hitting mobs (besides the avoidable melee attacks like mallet lords and the big skeleton axe windup hit) will now have a damage range of 95,423 - 127,230. Given that topend damage of 127k, you now need just over 94k EHP in order to always get a full 35% resist out of force armor.
This does not include any additional modifier that probably exists for champions/elites though. I am trying to find out what that modifier is and when I do I'll update this post with it.
EDIT: Based on this post: http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/va9sp/103_inferno_damage_nerfs_mlvl_62_36_mlvl_63_44/c52qfvn?context=3 there is a report that champion/elite mobs do 25% more damage than their normal counterparts. I will try to confirm this in-game. If anybody else has any data on that, it would be great. If that is the case, you would need 117.5k EHP to get a full resist from an elite phasebeast / similarly hard hitting mob.
It's 30-40.
No, I don't believe so. I outlined my reasoning for this here: http://www.diablofan...010#entry925010
At the time I made that posts I had no idea how hard the nerf was going to be, but I think the points I made there still hold true. Given that the topend damage for phasebeasts is now 127k, you would need 363k EHP to take 35% of your health in damage without force armor. If the 25% modifier for elites is correct, you would need 453k EHP to take hits of 35% of your life without force armor. This is compared to 94k/117.5k, so about 3.85 times as much EHP just to get on equal footing with force armor.
For comparison thats the difference between 26.5k HP, 4000 armor, and 300 resists (117.5k EHP) vs 34.6k HP, 6000 armor and 1100 (453k EHP!) resists. And thats just to get back to being EQUAL to force armor, obviously you would need more to exceed it, and a lot more to really notice a difference.
This is a repost from here, so credit to that original author on reddit: http://www.reddit.co...l_63_44/c52p2qi
thats true it may still be better to go with force armor, but now the prismatic armor is not such a crazy idea, given that you can get things like string of ears and use blur passive, that would give u good jump on EHP at least against melee, then u can maybe get a stormshield to help against elites and stack on some block to help mitigate the damage you take, it might actually work. Sure you would have to give up on things like glass cannon and an off hand source, but it just goes to show it is now possible to live without force armor(although your dps will still suck unfortunately).
Thank god for that - wasn't fun taking 140k hits back to back (though I imagine it is quite easy now either way).
Off the top of my head stats are:
23k HP
315-380 resist?
4500 armor (or more)
57k damage (37% crit chance and 290% dmg...i think 2008 INT)
Down to 1.4 or 1.5 APS depending on the ring
Extras: 8500 health globes....very small amount of HP regen/LoH and 12% move speed.
I have no res all on shoulder or bracers, so I could pick up 100-120 there. If I were to grab more res all to get mr in the 400s, would I be OK to drop VIT if I use prismatic to get even higher? Or would keeping force armor be the way to go.
Also, I've been using blizzard/arcane hydra build for slowing and blowimg up mobs in ac3/ponies for a while.
I will have to try this. The other thing my post doesn't take in to account is acts 1/2. Since it appears that the patch nerfed act 3, it might be more viable to run acts 1 or 2 at this point anyways and prismatic armor will be better there.
The easiest way to handle a reflect damage mob is to buy an amulet with 500-600+ Life on hit and just swap it on against reflect damage champ packs.
That is true, but at the same time with the prismatic rune you can take single big hits without getting one-shot. I'll still use Force Armor because I was already pretty close to not being able to get one-shot by anything pre-nerf, but if you're having troubles with say Diablo's fireball one-shotting you Prismatic can help you to just about survive it. So you go from being 3-shot by 80% of all attacks and 1-shot by 20% to being 2-shot by 50% and 3- to 5-shot by 50%. Numbers are ofc not real, just wanted to give an idea of where I'm going.
My only beef is that blizzard doesn't give you LoH on every single tick...but the mobs reflect every single tick. I would think it should go both ways. Make the reflect amunt equal to the possible loh hit gain. But ill just not use blizzard on them if i'm duoing i guess
edit: doing some messing with the EHP calculator and considering that you now need like 90kEHP to make force armor work I realize you would need something like 280 vita(for 10k HP thats including ur 127 vita), some 3300 armor(no buffs/debuffs), and 650 All res(no buffs debuffs). All that with enchantress companion, though you would need quite a bit of life regeneration on top of that to make it cheesy.
One route is prismatic armor and more EHP, but to get up to a reasonable EHP (~400ish) I would have to cut my dps down to 50% or even 33% of its current level.
The second alternative is getting some healing sources, which I think is what I am going to try, along with using an additional defensive skill. Using the templar and galvanizing ward automatically gives you about 500 life regen. If you can get another 500 from gear without giving much up and get to 1k life regen I think that will really make a big difference. Maybe a bit of life on hit as well. Then using illusionist and maybe even diamond skin on top of teleport and you've got a pretty survivable build without gimping your dps too bad.
Not sure if thats the best route or not but I'm thinking its worth a try.
From an elite mob yes, since they hit for about 159k.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
I just tried something up guys, changed a few of my items that had tons of vita and put some with life regeneration. Now I have 18k HP, 450 allres/3150 armor(res and armor before glass cannon debuff and force armor), and with that I get around 107K EHP, also have a little over 1k life regeneration including templar and galvanizing ward. Im still trying to find some more all res gear to reach around 500 all res before glass cannon.
I went to try it out on a siege breaker run, it worked like a charm, the life quickly replenishes itself since I have low HP, also diamond skin effectiveness went up with it to the point where I can cast DS and stand in place casting my spells against some rares/elites. Also illusionist works even better now since I can cast teleport/mirror image nonstop when I get hit and the life is right back on top(using teleport atm cuz I wanna try azmodan later).
The first 3 packs of rares I faced all had invulnerable affix, so that was a good test, and only the second one gave me a little trouble(died like 2 times) only because the Vulnerable elite refused to kite after me only the minions would and they had molten. The other rares/champions I steamrolled, super cheesy, not to mention that reflects damage is now a joke for me.
PS: not really hard to get that kind of gear since I have that but I also have the luxury of mf stats on most of my items as well(no macro for me).
PS2: Just did a run of the spider queen and after that azmodan, died a couple of times to some nasty champions, other than that died only once to azmodan, but only because I screwed the teleport after a pool spawned right under my feet, and the second time killed him pretty easily. Ofc he just dropped crap even with me at 280%mf the whole fight...