We see people saying things like: "Hydra dmg is sort of a dmg increase buff for 15 sec." During the 15 seconds we do our other stuff so Hydra passively adds dmg.
You can't really say this so easy. Remember that if you cast a Hydra, you could also have casted another spell. In the end we should calculate our damage per minute for example. Say we can cast 4 hydra's in 1 minute (it's active the whole minute). Meaning that you could also have casted 4 other spells. Ask yourself this: Do those 4 other spells do more or less dmg than Hydra during that minute?
Of course it does less damage. No spell individually does more damage then Hydra. One cast of Hydra during 15 seconds = 420% weapon damage which is higher then any other single target spell the wizard have.
Do I want Hydra to take one of the 6 spellslots I have.
You might. Unruned Hyra effectively increase your dps by 0.28*aps against single targets. Thats an hell of an buff.
I don't care if it useless, it's the most awesome skill in the game. If I could change only one thing about the game, it would be to remove the only-one-hydra cap. Give it a cooldown, raise the AP cost, lower the damage, I don't care... I want my Hydra army.
was it ever even optimal in d2? most would agree when i say NO.
but was it viable? yes.
is it still viable? YES.
its not going to feel like a "wasted" skill slot at all. if blizzard designs a skill, and you dont use it because you feel it wastes a slot, they have failed. they really, really, really dont like failing. hydra can attack while you are "jailed", "walled", "feared", and many of types of cc.
imagine being "jailed" at 5 hp, one more hit and you die. you are facing your last enemy of the group, perhaps a boss or a rare champion who is also near death. you arent sure if you are going to make it. you cant cast anything or move due to the nature of the CC, however your trusty hydra is over there firing off attacks. one such attack hits the enemy right on the button, they die, you are released from the cc, and you can fortunately move on. as you continue, you remember why hardcore mode is so fun, and are glad you rolled it.
was it ever even optimal in d2? most would agree when i say NO.
but was it viable? yes.
is it still viable? YES.
/rename thread to "is hydra optimal"
The question becomes, optimal for what? I'd say that counted as a damage buff along the lines of Familiar - Sparkflint or Magic Weapon, it is optimal, and probably does more net damage increase than either of those. Counting it like that, before even assessing its tactical value, "viable" seems to be an understatement imo.
was it ever even optimal in d2? most would agree when i say NO.
but was it viable? yes.
is it still viable? YES.
/rename thread to "is hydra optimal"
The question becomes, optimal for what? I'd say that counted as a damage buff along the lines of Familiar - Sparkflint or Magic Weapon, it is optimal, and probably does more net damage increase than either of those. Counting it like that, before even assessing its tactical value, "viable" seems to be an understatement imo.
generally when someone says optimal referring to the diablo series, at least with caster classes, it refers to killing speed. pretty sure that is well known. of course, we arent talking about defenisve and tactical abilities such as storm armor and teleport.
hydra isnt a damage "buff". it doesnt increase damage of all your attacks, it doesnt "buff" anything at all actually. its a cannon. it fires attacks while you do other things, or in the case that i explained above, while you do not do other things. im starting to doubt the intelligence of our community.
also keep in mind, there are people out there who just think its simply cool to have hydras attacking stuff. the devs recognize this niche, and cater to it.
generally when someone says optimal referring to the diablo series, at least with caster classes, it refers to killing speed. pretty sure that is well known. of course, we arent talking about defenisve and tactical abilities such as storm armor and teleport.
hydra isnt a damage "buff". it doesnt increase damage of all your attacks, it doesnt "buff" anything at all actually. its a cannon. it fires attacks while you do other things, or in the case that i explained above, while you do not do other things.
That's not how I would use "optimal," as situations vary sufficiently that offering killing power in one may not equate to killing power in another (Ray of Frost vs Meteor, for an easy example.) One can argue about average distribution of situations, and claim that X% of situations involve Y number of mobs, etc, but especially without seeing the whole game, this tenuously speculative.
Obviously, Hydra is not literally a modifier placed on your character in the sense of the Conjuration Wizard spells or passives, but as a spell cast relatively rarely, which increases your overall damage with minimal further attention, it can effectively be viewed as a damage buff.
generally when someone says optimal referring to the diablo series, at least with caster classes, it refers to killing speed. pretty sure that is well known. of course, we arent talking about defenisve and tactical abilities such as storm armor and teleport.
hydra isnt a damage "buff". it doesnt increase damage of all your attacks, it doesnt "buff" anything at all actually. its a cannon. it fires attacks while you do other things, or in the case that i explained above, while you do not do other things.
That's not how I would use "optimal," as situations vary sufficiently that offering killing power in one may not equate to killing power in another (Ray of Frost vs Meteor, for an easy example.) One can argue about average distribution of situations, and claim that X% of situations involve Y number of mobs, etc, but especially without seeing the whole game, this tenuously speculative.
Obviously, Hydra is not literally a modifier placed on your character in the sense of the Conjuration Wizard spells or passives, but as a spell cast relatively rarely, which increases your overall damage with minimal further attention, it can effectively be viewed as a damage buff.
quite simply, no. its more of a dot than anything. stop thinking of it as a buff. again, it just isnt.
was it ever even optimal in d2? most would agree when i say NO.
but was it viable? yes.
is it still viable? YES.
/rename thread to "is hydra optimal"
The question becomes, optimal for what? I'd say that counted as a damage buff along the lines of Familiar - Sparkflint or Magic Weapon, it is optimal, and probably does more net damage increase than either of those. Counting it like that, before even assessing its tactical value, "viable" seems to be an understatement imo.
generally when someone says optimal referring to the diablo series, at least with caster classes, it refers to killing speed. pretty sure that is well known. of course, we arent talking about defenisve and tactical abilities such as storm armor and teleport.
hydra isnt a damage "buff". it doesnt increase damage of all your attacks, it doesnt "buff" anything at all actually. its a cannon. it fires attacks while you do other things, or in the case that i explained above, while you do not do other things. im starting to doubt the intelligence of our community.
also keep in mind, there are people out there who just think its simply cool to have hydras attacking stuff. the devs recognize this niche, and cater to it.
It is not damage buff but it works execly like one against single targets. Assuming Hydra has 1 APS.
If you're fighting a boss and you buff your self with Magic Weapon you will cause 10% more damage (from all your attacks).
In the same circusntance if you use an Hydra you will cause execly 28% more damage which is execly like increasing the damage all your other attacks by 28%.
Take lightning Hydra for exemple (34% weapon damage). If you take 30 seconds to kill a boss, using Hydra you will take 20 seconds since hydra does 1/3 of your own damage. Its 100% efficient spell when we're talking about Player vs. Boss and burst damage is irrelevant because the fight lasts more then a full skill cycle (fightning that take more then 10 seconds or so).
quite simply, no. its more of a dot than anything. stop thinking of it as a buff. again, it just isnt.
Against single targets buffs = dots. If you have a DoT that cause 20% weapon damage per attack (determined by your attack speed) and you have a buff that increase your damage by 20%, your potential DPS buff by both skills are execly the same.
The only difference is that dots damage enemies while you don't while buff only damages enemies while you do. Which just increase the relative utility of dots/familiars over buffs.
Just to reinvorce my point. Takes this build:http://us.battle.net...YdRm!XbU!acZcZb
Try to replace Hydra with any other skill and improve your ST damage. You can't. Or give me any build w/o Hydra and i will show that sticking Hydra in it will allways increase your single target damage.
It is not damage buff but it works execly like one against single targets. Assuming Hydra has 1 APS.
If you're fighting a boss and you buff your self with Magic Weapon you will cause 10% more damage (from all your attacks).
In the same circusntance if you use an Hydra you will cause execly 28% more damage which is execly like increasing the damage all your other attacks by 28%.
quite simply, no. its more of a dot than anything. stop thinking of it as a buff. again, it just isnt.
Against single targets buffs = dots. If you have a DoT that cause 20% weapon damage per attack (determined by your attack speed) and you have a buff that increase your damage by 20%, your potential DPS buff by both skills are execly the same.
The only difference is that dots damage enemies while you don't while buff only damages enemies while you do. Which just increase the relative utility of dots/familiars over buffs.
Arcane Hydra, Frost Hydra, and particularly Mammoth Hydra explicitly fire AoE attacks, so dispel any notion that it affects single targets only. Unruned and Lightning Hydra are certainly single target, and Venom Hydra is perhaps a little harder to place, but as a generality across forms, it can certainly be hitting just as many mobs as any number of likely direct AoE Wizard options. Hence not just a buff to single-target dps, but quite likely, to all dps.
This is exactly why you can't judge a skill without using it. Whether you like it or not, Blizzard has balanced the game as they see fit. Apparently being able to have more than one Hydra was too powerful.
The numbers may seem low, but clearly there's a reason behind that.
Condemning a spell based solely on its tooltip and without any form of experimentation whatsoever is stupid.
Sure you can. I judged it, and found it too be quite good in certain situations, and potentially continually amazing given certain circumstances are met.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
What is the best way to apply conflagration for your party?
Hydra (unruned or Mammoth) will continually apply conflagration for 15 seconds at a cost of just 15 mana.
Other options:
Spam fire-bolts (which ties up your actions)
Drop meteors (60 AP for a maximum of 8 seconds of application)
Hydra is the optimal tool for the application of the conflagration debuff.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
What is the best way to apply conflagration for your party?
Hydra (unruned or Mammoth) will continually apply conflagration for 15 seconds at a cost of just 15 mana.
Other options:
Spam fire-bolts (which ties up your actions)
Drop meteors (60 AP for a maximum of 8 seconds of application)
Hydra is the optimal tool for the application of the conflagration debuff.
You just listed meteor and then took it away without reason. Its obviously the best for debuffing a large group with conflag.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
What is the best way to apply conflagration for your party?
Hydra (unruned or Mammoth) will continually apply conflagration for 15 seconds at a cost of just 15 mana.
Other options:
Spam fire-bolts (which ties up your actions)
Drop meteors (60 AP for a maximum of 8 seconds of application)
Hydra is the optimal tool for the application of the conflagration debuff.
You just listed meteor and then took it away for without reason. Its obviously the best for debuffing a large group with conflag.
I have to agree with Theungry; this is a use I had thought of some time back for Hydra. Meteor is a strong, but inferior choice overall (for the *specific* purpose of Conflagging stuff) because if you take Meteor, that basically ties up your AP expenditure; you can't really have Meteor in a build "just for utility," whereas, given the nature of Hydra, I think you can get away with that. It is harder to aim (a debatable point, I suppose), and places the debuff for less overall duration and at higher cost than Hydra (or at least than Mammoth Hydra.) Meteor only really wins at getting the debuff on more things in less time, buy Hydra offers the debuff while still allowing substantial build versatility.
Useless in Normal, not terrible in Nightmare, good after that. /thread
Normal monsters are too easy to kill for this spell. Everything's dead and you're out of the room before it has a chance to attack anything. In Hell and Inferno fights will take longer, making the AOE versions of this spell far better. The problem is it just seems too restrictive to be useful in a build that will need multiple defensive spells in the harder difficulties. Your offensive skills will need to fill a niche but still be versatile. You will probably only be able to take 3 offensive spells. You'll probably want a precision high damage attack, something good for AOEing, and something with some utility.
Cast Mammoth Hydra behind you, Slow Time in front of you. Hydra puts out 10% extra damage (Conflagration), then let loose with the Disintegrate that slows by 30% more.
Hydra's problem is it's so restrictive in placement. Once it's down, you have to always fight near it or it's wasted. Completely useless during tactical retreats... it's just not very versatile of a spell.
One of the problems I have with it from watching the video again. In hell/Inferno I would wager as a Wizard you're going to be moving around a lot. Thus making the monsters move as well. The hydra fires so slowly that I don't see the monsters being there for the blast. They seriously need to increase the speed of the projectiles from it.
Plus there is also the large hit box of the monsters you will surely have to avoid in the later difficulties. I just don't see this spell holding up it's worth.
Too bad as well, although I never used this build in D2 I always enjoyed messing around with it because it had utility and the fun factor.... fun factor in D3 - not so much.
Hydra's problem is it's so restrictive in placement. Once it's down, you have to always fight near it or it's wasted. Completely useless during tactical retreats... it's just not very versatile of a spell.
Depends on how far and in what manner you are going to retreat; depending on the terrain and maneuver, you might be able to stay in range the entire time; if not, then since it has only a cap and not a CD, you can simply recast it. Given that you are on the move a lot in such a situation, I would say it becomes ideal because you can lay it down and keep going, and repeat as necessary.
Useless in Normal, not terrible in Nightmare, good after that. /thread
Normal monsters are too easy to kill for this spell. Everything's dead and you're out of the room before it has a chance to attack anything. In Hell and Inferno fights will take longer, making the AOE versions of this spell far better. The problem is it just seems too restrictive to be useful in a build that will need multiple defensive spells in the harder difficulties. Your offensive skills will need to fill a niche but still be versatile. You will probably only be able to take 3 offensive spells. You'll probably want a precision high damage attack, something good for AOEing, and something with some utility.
I can see why this might suggest that Hydra's utility scales well with content level, but it also suggests an argument for it at low levels: if things die easily, then you lay down an AoE Hydra, and let it do all your killing while you loot, or fight another pack, etc. I agree about the 3-ish offensive skill maximum (or rather, direct damage skill, so to say), but I plan to count Hydra as one of those in probably most of my Wiz builds. I would say that in general, you need 1 spell which will work for single target high damage (doesn't have to be a single target spell), one spell that handles AoE or at least multi-target for groups, one spell that costs little/no/negative AP, and one spell that is an AP spender; as much overlap as is possible is acceptable across these. I can usually fulfill those with 2 spells, leaving me a slot for Hydra as third.
that's all you should need to hear. if Mammoth casts firewalls at your APS, that will be ridiculously OP. Even if it functions like Inferno (the D2 skill), it will still be a ridiculous AoE.
Also, I agree that it is probably the best way to keep the most mobs Conflagrated at the least cost, opportunity or Arcane Power-wise.
Since the tooltip explicitly refers to the Mammoth Hydra's single head, I suspect its rate of fire will be roughly 1/3 that of the other Hydras, which probably means something like APS/3. Still spectacular.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Of course it does less damage. No spell individually does more damage then Hydra. One cast of Hydra during 15 seconds = 420% weapon damage which is higher then any other single target spell the wizard have.
You might. Unruned Hyra effectively increase your dps by 0.28*aps against single targets. Thats an hell of an buff.
was it ever even optimal in d2? most would agree when i say NO.
but was it viable? yes.
is it still viable? YES.
its not going to feel like a "wasted" skill slot at all. if blizzard designs a skill, and you dont use it because you feel it wastes a slot, they have failed. they really, really, really dont like failing. hydra can attack while you are "jailed", "walled", "feared", and many of types of cc.
imagine being "jailed" at 5 hp, one more hit and you die. you are facing your last enemy of the group, perhaps a boss or a rare champion who is also near death. you arent sure if you are going to make it. you cant cast anything or move due to the nature of the CC, however your trusty hydra is over there firing off attacks. one such attack hits the enemy right on the button, they die, you are released from the cc, and you can fortunately move on. as you continue, you remember why hardcore mode is so fun, and are glad you rolled it.
/rename thread to "is hydra optimal"
The question becomes, optimal for what? I'd say that counted as a damage buff along the lines of Familiar - Sparkflint or Magic Weapon, it is optimal, and probably does more net damage increase than either of those. Counting it like that, before even assessing its tactical value, "viable" seems to be an understatement imo.
generally when someone says optimal referring to the diablo series, at least with caster classes, it refers to killing speed. pretty sure that is well known. of course, we arent talking about defenisve and tactical abilities such as storm armor and teleport.
hydra isnt a damage "buff". it doesnt increase damage of all your attacks, it doesnt "buff" anything at all actually. its a cannon. it fires attacks while you do other things, or in the case that i explained above, while you do not do other things. im starting to doubt the intelligence of our community.
also keep in mind, there are people out there who just think its simply cool to have hydras attacking stuff. the devs recognize this niche, and cater to it.
That's not how I would use "optimal," as situations vary sufficiently that offering killing power in one may not equate to killing power in another (Ray of Frost vs Meteor, for an easy example.) One can argue about average distribution of situations, and claim that X% of situations involve Y number of mobs, etc, but especially without seeing the whole game, this tenuously speculative.
Obviously, Hydra is not literally a modifier placed on your character in the sense of the Conjuration Wizard spells or passives, but as a spell cast relatively rarely, which increases your overall damage with minimal further attention, it can effectively be viewed as a damage buff.
quite simply, no. its more of a dot than anything. stop thinking of it as a buff. again, it just isnt.
It is not damage buff but it works execly like one against single targets. Assuming Hydra has 1 APS.
If you're fighting a boss and you buff your self with Magic Weapon you will cause 10% more damage (from all your attacks).
In the same circusntance if you use an Hydra you will cause execly 28% more damage which is execly like increasing the damage all your other attacks by 28%.
Take lightning Hydra for exemple (34% weapon damage). If you take 30 seconds to kill a boss, using Hydra you will take 20 seconds since hydra does 1/3 of your own damage. Its 100% efficient spell when we're talking about Player vs. Boss and burst damage is irrelevant because the fight lasts more then a full skill cycle (fightning that take more then 10 seconds or so).
Against single targets buffs = dots. If you have a DoT that cause 20% weapon damage per attack (determined by your attack speed) and you have a buff that increase your damage by 20%, your potential DPS buff by both skills are execly the same.
The only difference is that dots damage enemies while you don't while buff only damages enemies while you do. Which just increase the relative utility of dots/familiars over buffs.
Just to reinvorce my point. Takes this build:http://us.battle.net...YdRm!XbU!acZcZb
Try to replace Hydra with any other skill and improve your ST damage. You can't. Or give me any build w/o Hydra and i will show that sticking Hydra in it will allways increase your single target damage.
Arcane Hydra, Frost Hydra, and particularly Mammoth Hydra explicitly fire AoE attacks, so dispel any notion that it affects single targets only. Unruned and Lightning Hydra are certainly single target, and Venom Hydra is perhaps a little harder to place, but as a generality across forms, it can certainly be hitting just as many mobs as any number of likely direct AoE Wizard options. Hence not just a buff to single-target dps, but quite likely, to all dps.
Epicurus
Hydra (unruned or Mammoth) will continually apply conflagration for 15 seconds at a cost of just 15 mana.
Other options:
Epicurus
I have to agree with Theungry; this is a use I had thought of some time back for Hydra. Meteor is a strong, but inferior choice overall (for the *specific* purpose of Conflagging stuff) because if you take Meteor, that basically ties up your AP expenditure; you can't really have Meteor in a build "just for utility," whereas, given the nature of Hydra, I think you can get away with that. It is harder to aim (a debatable point, I suppose), and places the debuff for less overall duration and at higher cost than Hydra (or at least than Mammoth Hydra.) Meteor only really wins at getting the debuff on more things in less time, buy Hydra offers the debuff while still allowing substantial build versatility.
Normal monsters are too easy to kill for this spell. Everything's dead and you're out of the room before it has a chance to attack anything. In Hell and Inferno fights will take longer, making the AOE versions of this spell far better. The problem is it just seems too restrictive to be useful in a build that will need multiple defensive spells in the harder difficulties. Your offensive skills will need to fill a niche but still be versatile. You will probably only be able to take 3 offensive spells. You'll probably want a precision high damage attack, something good for AOEing, and something with some utility.
Example: Magic Missile, Arcane Orb, Wave of Force
How would I use it?
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#UigRfP!eUX!YbZcYa
Cast Mammoth Hydra behind you, Slow Time in front of you. Hydra puts out 10% extra damage (Conflagration), then let loose with the Disintegrate that slows by 30% more.
Hydra's problem is it's so restrictive in placement. Once it's down, you have to always fight near it or it's wasted. Completely useless during tactical retreats... it's just not very versatile of a spell.
Plus there is also the large hit box of the monsters you will surely have to avoid in the later difficulties. I just don't see this spell holding up it's worth.
Too bad as well, although I never used this build in D2 I always enjoyed messing around with it because it had utility and the fun factor.... fun factor in D3 - not so much.
Depends on how far and in what manner you are going to retreat; depending on the terrain and maneuver, you might be able to stay in range the entire time; if not, then since it has only a cap and not a CD, you can simply recast it. Given that you are on the move a lot in such a situation, I would say it becomes ideal because you can lay it down and keep going, and repeat as necessary.
I can see why this might suggest that Hydra's utility scales well with content level, but it also suggests an argument for it at low levels: if things die easily, then you lay down an AoE Hydra, and let it do all your killing while you loot, or fight another pack, etc. I agree about the 3-ish offensive skill maximum (or rather, direct damage skill, so to say), but I plan to count Hydra as one of those in probably most of my Wiz builds. I would say that in general, you need 1 spell which will work for single target high damage (doesn't have to be a single target spell), one spell that handles AoE or at least multi-target for groups, one spell that costs little/no/negative AP, and one spell that is an AP spender; as much overlap as is possible is acceptable across these. I can usually fulfill those with 2 spells, leaving me a slot for Hydra as third.
FIRE WALL.
that's all you should need to hear. if Mammoth casts firewalls at your APS, that will be ridiculously OP. Even if it functions like Inferno (the D2 skill), it will still be a ridiculous AoE.
Also, I agree that it is probably the best way to keep the most mobs Conflagrated at the least cost, opportunity or Arcane Power-wise.