There are a lot of threads about Hydra or Meteor or Blizzard being useless. This is not true. Everyone seems to be comparing these skills to their D2 counterparts which is completely crazy!!!!
Mana Pots were free flowing in D2. So not the case in D3.
All these spells were your main attack spells in D2 (esp with synergies), but in D3, most of these spells are not meant as main attacks. (Not to say we can't try to make them our main attacks but you're not meant to have a Meteor Sorceress as in D2)
Again I want to stress, the 3rd or 4th category of skills for each class were never designed to be your main attack, potentially with lots of very specific gear and gems we could potentially chain cast these spells non stop, but that's a conscious build and effort on your part.
Unlike Diablo 2 where if you decided you wanted a Hydra build, you would pump 20 points into it, then the synergies and probably use it 90% of the time (before the nerf). Heck with a Freezing Orb sorceress, it was essentially the only spell I cast 95% of the time. Those spells were designed to be your main attack.
And this applies to the other classes as well. I would love to have Exploding Palm as my main monk attack (as it was in 2008 Blizzcon demo). But the current design does not support this. For the Witch Doctor, Chain Casting Acid Cloud seems like an awesome build except it costs 172 mana per cast. For the Demon Hunter, tell me no one thought that chain casting Fan of Knives was an awesome idea! In early beta it was available early on but did crap dmg, now the dmg looks awesome, too bad they added a cooldown.
So just saying that we need to look at Diablo 3 skills as they currently are and the way they are designed (at least at launch), and stop focusing on how similar skills worked in Diablo 2.
It depends on your definition of useless. All of the skills are useful but some are more useful than others and perform the same task. In my opinion, that makes the skill useless. There will still be useless skills in D3 by that definition.
It also depends on how you define a skill. Are you going to lump together all of the possible runes and call the package a skill or is each individual runed skill a different skill?
I think 4 (maybe all 5) of the Energy Twister glyphs are useless. They don't perform well compared to other AE effects because the skill is random + constantly moves + does low damage per second. There just isn't a good reason to use the skill over something like Blizzard (another damage over time skill). The only possible viable version of the spell is the one that doesn't move (which ironically makes it perform a lot like Blizzard). Even then, I think it'll be useless because if you compare it to blizzard... blizzard has a wider range and depending on the rune you pick, either more damage or less AP cost than twister.
There will always be less useful skills, since in the end, we're really just talking about math formulas. I think they did a good job with the skills in D3 because the choices are fairly close for most skills. There are only a small handful of what I would call, useless skills for each class. Almost every skill has at least 1 rune that sounds viable.
Blizzard damage is pretty fixed. Energy twister is random. It is fully possible to do more damage on twister than blizzard. Twister also stacks and is spammable, Blizzard can't stack.
You're right, the definition of useless is very subjective and personal. I know people don't like Energy Twister, I'm not too thrilled with it myself, but doesn't some part of you want to go out and test the skill and see if it can be made useful? Don't you want to be the person who discovered a playstyle and skill combo that makes it a viable skill?
I know I do and I also want to see the graphics of the rune that allows you to combine 2 twisters. Someone somewhere out there will use the skill, might not be the most popular build, but I'm sure it can be made viable.
I like twister and think it makes a great AP dump. Assuming the rest of your skills compliment it.
I like the definition of useless by Ruppgu. A skill that is inferior to another and performs the same purpose. Or to put it in another way, a skill that is outperformed in all ways by another skill. There is no such skill in all of D3. Twister is nowhere comparable to Blizzard in its purpose, damage output, CD, AP, etc.
Blizzard damage is pretty fixed. Energy twister is random. It is fully possible to do more damage on twister than blizzard. Twister also stacks and is spammable, Blizzard can't stack.
I would say these 2 skills have different niches.
Good point on blizzard.
What about Meteor - Star Pact vs Energy Twister - Wicked Wind.
* Both cost 35AP
* From the videos I've seen, Meteor has a bigger range
* Wicked Wind does 252% over 6 seconds
* Meteor does 260% damage over 3 seconds (not to mention that 200% of it is instant)
1. Meteor has a delay between activation and impact. Wicked wind is instant.
2. Wicked wind deals arcane damage and can be talented as a slow, meteor does fire damage and can be talented as a dps debuff
3. As wicked wind hits more times per cast, it can be of value to builds that rely on procs
I would still say they serve different purposes. A 6s instant cast spammable immobile area that slows has great kiting value.
You really have to consider that even if almost every facet of 2 comparable skills are the same, it's whichever part that is different that will determine the skill's niche.
Blizzard damage is pretty fixed. Energy twister is random. It is fully possible to do more damage on twister than blizzard. Twister also stacks and is spammable, Blizzard can't stack.
I would say these 2 skills have different niches.
Good point on blizzard.
What about Meteor - Star Pact vs Energy Twister - Wicked Wind.
* Both cost 35AP
* From the videos I've seen, Meteor has a bigger range
* Wicked Wind does 252% over 6 seconds
* Meteor does 260% damage over 3 seconds (not to mention that 200% of it is instant)
So... Energy Twister - Wicked Wind is useless.
I'm specifically referring to the Energy Twiser - Wicked Wind vs Meteor comparison:
Even with AP Cost being the same, and Energy Twister having lesser damage with a smaller range, that "over 6 seconds" really changes the way you can use the skill. Say for instance you know that monsters are going to be funneling down a hallway for a while... you can drop ET - WW in front of them and focus on something else for a minute. When overgearing comes into play, the effect of a lower damage but longer lasting positional DOT becomes amplified if it still produces enough damage to kill most (or all) of the mobs it's being set against.
This example is a bit mediocre but I think most people get the idea - understanding how a single difference between 2 skills seperates their uses is going to be key in deciding which skills to use in the first place.
Passives could also potentially be a major game-changer when it comes to skill selected....
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While I'm thinking about it - it really seems like people tend to neglect the portions of a skill's features that are anything other than purely mathematical.
Positioning, timing, secondary effects - all very hard to quantify... also all vital to proper use... and all potentially the reason a skill is considered so powerful or so weak in the first place. Crunching numbers is pretty easy.. learning how to value these other effects ... not so much.
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Wicked wind has greater duration which means you can cast one and move to another spell like arcane orb in order to stack the DPS outpeforming meteor.
huh? You can't compare 1 cast of Meteor with 1 cast of Arcane Twister + Arcane Orb. You'd have to compare it to 2 casts of Meteor in which case.... meteor wins again.
If ANY skill is "useless" or subpar to other skills, Blizzard will quite simply, rebalance the skills and the game through weekly patches. Thus rendering all skills equally good, but different, at times playstyles and different times.
Problem?
This isn't wow, updates will be rare.
Balance changes will be short and far in between.
Wicked wind has greater duration which means you can cast one and move to another spell like arcane orb in order to stack the DPS outpeforming meteor.
huh? You can't compare 1 cast of Meteor with 1 cast of Arcane Twister + Arcane Orb. You'd have to compare it to 2 casts of Meteor in which case.... meteor wins again.
I am the one they are primarily directing these attacks to as I often question the worth of many skills. So I know first hand just how stubborn these fanboys are. Numbers and facts mean nothing to them...
So Good luck Ruppgu.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Really though... there are much better examples than Arcane Twister
Ice Armor - Frozen Storm: 30% dmg over 3 seconds after you cast it? Wow that's bad.
Wave of Force - Teleporting Wave: lol what? Why would I want it to randomly teleport enemies all over the place? That's basically the same as knockback but more random.... okay. Why would I give up the benefits of the other runes for this?
Like I said before... it's pretty amazing how few abilities are real turds but to refuse to accept that they exist is a bit off base.
I am the one they are primarily directing these attacks to as I often question the worth of many skills. So I know first hand just how stubborn these fanboys are. Numbers and facts mean nothing to them...
So Good luck Ruppgu.
The point here is that the choice of weather a skill is crap differs from Person to Person. There are folks like Antirepublican who use purely math to calculate if skills are good or not. But his analysis does ignore other aspects of the spell as Glitterpony mentioned (positioning, timing, secondary effects, area of effect, personal preference, etc).
It is easy to call people fanboys and argue purely based on math. But you have to know that not everyone is using that logic. If people decide to use Energy Twister or Meteor in their builds and are finding it fun and not having issues, it doesn't mean it is a bad build.
So they take 25% longer to complete a certain Act, there are so many variables such as equipment used, numbers of monsters faced, random dungeons all of which contribute to the timing of finishing an act. Even builds between classes affect timings, a build focused on kiting would take longer than a build focused on direct damage.
I have no issue with People disliking and dismissing skills, its pure personal choice. I'm not necessarily disagreeing that some skills definitely need buffs/balancing changes from Blizzard. But to flat out say that a spell is completely useless based on math that many people have punctured in terms of logic, and acting like it is a black and white issue is just the sign of a closed mind.
Energy Twister is going to be completely useless. The only hope is that the AoE of the runed Tornado is massive.
Not at all. Tons of little spiders that are all over the place, you throw down 2-3 Twisters, move away and nuke down with electrocute. More damage dealt than Arcane Orb since Twister runs over everything and keeps going, safer than Arcane Torrent because you don't have to stand still to cast it a lot.
Plus making the claim that a skill is "completely useless" is moronic, especially given the fact that we've seen about 4% of the game so far. I'm sure it has a place and a time to be used.
I'm assuming you didn't get a chance to try Twister in the beta because that's not how the skill works at all. You only get the tooltip damage if the twister is on top of a mob for the ENTIRE duration. Mobs are always heading towards you and twisters are always moving away, couple that with the random movement and the skill is horrible. If you are lucky enough that the twister actually makes contact with the mob it passes over it only dealing 1-2 ticks of damage, so you get a small fraction of the actual damage.
In your scenario I'd rather blow through my AP with something like Arcane Orb which will deal SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than Energy Twister before falling back on a signature skill. I'm not trying to be an ass, and I'm not trying to say I'm better/smarter than you. I love the idea of Energy Twister and the skill looks absolutely amazing. I really wanted it to be good and tried using it in multiple scenarios to see if I could find a situation where it would be effective. Every single time it failed. It just sucks man, sorry.
Nothing in the world of blizzard is purely mathematical and even the portions that are can be more complex than they seem.
Here's a hypothetical:
You have 1 skill that does 101 damage every second.
You have another skill that does 50 damage every 0.5 seconds.
Mathematically speaking the throughput favors the first skill but what happens when you approach a mob that has 102-150 hp? The second skill is going to kill the mob faster (2 seconds with the first skill vs. 1.5 with the latter), allowing you to move to your next target. Situations like these arise all the time... the first skill (while having greater throughput) is going to have to wait a whole extra second just to waste a ton of it's damage on overkill. This is just a very basic illustration of the concept that mathematically "optimal" builds don't necessarily net you the greatest killing power.
This doesn't even factor in indirect DPS enhancements such as Run/Walk speed boosters (faster moving to next target = more time spent attacking and less time walking) which only makes an already complex system even more difficult to comprehend.
Sure, anyone can argue that an optimal build should be based around maximum dps throughput on a sustained damage effort but ultimately number crunching for a "Patchwerk" style fight is faulty when you rarely encounter such content. (Go Go WoW Reference!)
Anyone who thinks they can crunch this game down to pure calculation is a fool at best. There's way too many randomized skills (of mobs), effects, and combinations of player skills (and passives) than are possible to accurately quantify using only a calculator.
If someone was going to base their entire build around math targeted at producing maximum dps output then everyone would have 1 active skill and 5 Dots/Passive damage enhancement skills. In almost every case DoT's have the highest DPTI and DPE (Damage Per Time Invested and Damage Per Execution). That being the case you would want to load up all your dots, keep them rolling with minimal downtime, and spam your active skill in between.... but how many people are doing that?
The whole math thing works great in WoW because the HP, skills, and effects of enemies are known prior to the encounter.... Diablo's Randomization prevents such knowledge making math-based preparation substantially less accurate.
Anyone remember how hard heroic Faction Champs was until you seriously outgeared it?
TLDR;
Yes math is great. Math will help you succeed in all things blizzard.
Yes I theory craft (and have been for a long time). Yes I enjoy it and will continue to do so.
No I don't believe sheer number crunching will always wield you the greatest results.
Do what feels best and what you enjoy the most.
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I'm assuming you didn't get a chance to try Twister in the beta because that's not how the skill works at all. You only get the tooltip damage if the twister is on top of a mob for the ENTIRE duration. Mobs are always heading towards you and twisters are always moving away, couple that with the random movement and the skill is horrible. If you are lucky enough that the twister actually makes contact with the mob it passes over it only dealing 1-2 ticks of damage, so you get a small fraction of the actual damage.
In your scenario I'd rather blow through my AP with something like Arcane Orb which will deal SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than Energy Twister before falling back on a signature skill. I'm not trying to be an ass, and I'm not trying to say I'm better/smarter than you. I love the idea of Energy Twister and the skill looks absolutely amazing. I really wanted it to be good and tried using it in multiple scenarios to see if I could find a situation where it would be effective. Every single time it failed. It just sucks man, sorry.
All my text-wall aside - I agree that currently Energy Twiser suxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx!!
It's only really good in a very very densly packed room with a greater area of population than something like Arcane Orb can reach .. which doesn't happen very often... YET >
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If there are rooms like that I'd rather just drop a few Meteors in there instead. Meteor will be great for those rooms AND for open areas with smaller packs of mobs (situations where Energy Twister rng is going to make the skill worthless most of the time).
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Unlike Diablo 2 where if you decided you wanted a Hydra build, you would pump 20 points into it, then the synergies and probably use it 90% of the time (before the nerf). Heck with a Freezing Orb sorceress, it was essentially the only spell I cast 95% of the time. Those spells were designed to be your main attack.
And this applies to the other classes as well. I would love to have Exploding Palm as my main monk attack (as it was in 2008 Blizzcon demo). But the current design does not support this. For the Witch Doctor, Chain Casting Acid Cloud seems like an awesome build except it costs 172 mana per cast. For the Demon Hunter, tell me no one thought that chain casting Fan of Knives was an awesome idea! In early beta it was available early on but did crap dmg, now the dmg looks awesome, too bad they added a cooldown.
So just saying that we need to look at Diablo 3 skills as they currently are and the way they are designed (at least at launch), and stop focusing on how similar skills worked in Diablo 2.
FORCE (Wizard)
Hydra
Meteor
Blizzard
TECHNIQUES (Monk)
Exploding Palm
Sweeping Wind
DECAY (Witch Doctor)
Zombie Charger
Acid Cloud
Spirit Barrage
DEVICES (Demon Hunter)
Fan of Knives
Spike Trap
Sentry
MIGHT (Barbarian)
- Very different skills which don't quite compare
It also depends on how you define a skill. Are you going to lump together all of the possible runes and call the package a skill or is each individual runed skill a different skill?
I think 4 (maybe all 5) of the Energy Twister glyphs are useless. They don't perform well compared to other AE effects because the skill is random + constantly moves + does low damage per second. There just isn't a good reason to use the skill over something like Blizzard (another damage over time skill). The only possible viable version of the spell is the one that doesn't move (which ironically makes it perform a lot like Blizzard). Even then, I think it'll be useless because if you compare it to blizzard... blizzard has a wider range and depending on the rune you pick, either more damage or less AP cost than twister.
There will always be less useful skills, since in the end, we're really just talking about math formulas. I think they did a good job with the skills in D3 because the choices are fairly close for most skills. There are only a small handful of what I would call, useless skills for each class. Almost every skill has at least 1 rune that sounds viable.
I would say these 2 skills have different niches.
I know I do and I also want to see the graphics of the rune that allows you to combine 2 twisters. Someone somewhere out there will use the skill, might not be the most popular build, but I'm sure it can be made viable.
I like the definition of useless by Ruppgu. A skill that is inferior to another and performs the same purpose. Or to put it in another way, a skill that is outperformed in all ways by another skill. There is no such skill in all of D3. Twister is nowhere comparable to Blizzard in its purpose, damage output, CD, AP, etc.
Good point on blizzard.
What about Meteor - Star Pact vs Energy Twister - Wicked Wind.
* Both cost 35AP
* From the videos I've seen, Meteor has a bigger range
* Wicked Wind does 252% over 6 seconds
* Meteor does 260% damage over 3 seconds (not to mention that 200% of it is instant)
So... Energy Twister - Wicked Wind is useless.
2. Wicked wind deals arcane damage and can be talented as a slow, meteor does fire damage and can be talented as a dps debuff
3. As wicked wind hits more times per cast, it can be of value to builds that rely on procs
I would still say they serve different purposes. A 6s instant cast spammable immobile area that slows has great kiting value.
In the example above:
I'm specifically referring to the Energy Twiser - Wicked Wind vs Meteor comparison:
Even with AP Cost being the same, and Energy Twister having lesser damage with a smaller range, that "over 6 seconds" really changes the way you can use the skill. Say for instance you know that monsters are going to be funneling down a hallway for a while... you can drop ET - WW in front of them and focus on something else for a minute. When overgearing comes into play, the effect of a lower damage but longer lasting positional DOT becomes amplified if it still produces enough damage to kill most (or all) of the mobs it's being set against.
This example is a bit mediocre but I think most people get the idea - understanding how a single difference between 2 skills seperates their uses is going to be key in deciding which skills to use in the first place.
Passives could also potentially be a major game-changer when it comes to skill selected....
16GB G Skill Ram ~ 2x Mushkin 120GB SSD's ~ MSI GTX 570 Twin Frozer ~ Asus P8P67 Deluxe
Positioning, timing, secondary effects - all very hard to quantify... also all vital to proper use... and all potentially the reason a skill is considered so powerful or so weak in the first place. Crunching numbers is pretty easy.. learning how to value these other effects ... not so much.
16GB G Skill Ram ~ 2x Mushkin 120GB SSD's ~ MSI GTX 570 Twin Frozer ~ Asus P8P67 Deluxe
huh? You can't compare 1 cast of Meteor with 1 cast of Arcane Twister + Arcane Orb. You'd have to compare it to 2 casts of Meteor in which case.... meteor wins again.
Don't be a delusional fanboy, and use your head for something other than a hat rack.
This isn't wow, updates will be rare.
Balance changes will be short and far in between.
I am the one they are primarily directing these attacks to as I often question the worth of many skills. So I know first hand just how stubborn these fanboys are. Numbers and facts mean nothing to them...
So Good luck Ruppgu.
Epicurus
Ice Armor - Frozen Storm: 30% dmg over 3 seconds after you cast it? Wow that's bad.
Wave of Force - Teleporting Wave: lol what? Why would I want it to randomly teleport enemies all over the place? That's basically the same as knockback but more random.... okay. Why would I give up the benefits of the other runes for this?
Like I said before... it's pretty amazing how few abilities are real turds but to refuse to accept that they exist is a bit off base.
The point here is that the choice of weather a skill is crap differs from Person to Person. There are folks like Antirepublican who use purely math to calculate if skills are good or not. But his analysis does ignore other aspects of the spell as Glitterpony mentioned (positioning, timing, secondary effects, area of effect, personal preference, etc).
It is easy to call people fanboys and argue purely based on math. But you have to know that not everyone is using that logic. If people decide to use Energy Twister or Meteor in their builds and are finding it fun and not having issues, it doesn't mean it is a bad build.
So they take 25% longer to complete a certain Act, there are so many variables such as equipment used, numbers of monsters faced, random dungeons all of which contribute to the timing of finishing an act. Even builds between classes affect timings, a build focused on kiting would take longer than a build focused on direct damage.
I have no issue with People disliking and dismissing skills, its pure personal choice. I'm not necessarily disagreeing that some skills definitely need buffs/balancing changes from Blizzard. But to flat out say that a spell is completely useless based on math that many people have punctured in terms of logic, and acting like it is a black and white issue is just the sign of a closed mind.
Not at all. Tons of little spiders that are all over the place, you throw down 2-3 Twisters, move away and nuke down with electrocute. More damage dealt than Arcane Orb since Twister runs over everything and keeps going, safer than Arcane Torrent because you don't have to stand still to cast it a lot.
Plus making the claim that a skill is "completely useless" is moronic, especially given the fact that we've seen about 4% of the game so far. I'm sure it has a place and a time to be used.
In your scenario I'd rather blow through my AP with something like Arcane Orb which will deal SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than Energy Twister before falling back on a signature skill. I'm not trying to be an ass, and I'm not trying to say I'm better/smarter than you. I love the idea of Energy Twister and the skill looks absolutely amazing. I really wanted it to be good and tried using it in multiple scenarios to see if I could find a situation where it would be effective. Every single time it failed. It just sucks man, sorry.
Here's a hypothetical:
You have 1 skill that does 101 damage every second.
You have another skill that does 50 damage every 0.5 seconds.
Mathematically speaking the throughput favors the first skill but what happens when you approach a mob that has 102-150 hp? The second skill is going to kill the mob faster (2 seconds with the first skill vs. 1.5 with the latter), allowing you to move to your next target. Situations like these arise all the time... the first skill (while having greater throughput) is going to have to wait a whole extra second just to waste a ton of it's damage on overkill. This is just a very basic illustration of the concept that mathematically "optimal" builds don't necessarily net you the greatest killing power.
This doesn't even factor in indirect DPS enhancements such as Run/Walk speed boosters (faster moving to next target = more time spent attacking and less time walking) which only makes an already complex system even more difficult to comprehend.
Sure, anyone can argue that an optimal build should be based around maximum dps throughput on a sustained damage effort but ultimately number crunching for a "Patchwerk" style fight is faulty when you rarely encounter such content. (Go Go WoW Reference!)
Anyone who thinks they can crunch this game down to pure calculation is a fool at best. There's way too many randomized skills (of mobs), effects, and combinations of player skills (and passives) than are possible to accurately quantify using only a calculator.
If someone was going to base their entire build around math targeted at producing maximum dps output then everyone would have 1 active skill and 5 Dots/Passive damage enhancement skills. In almost every case DoT's have the highest DPTI and DPE (Damage Per Time Invested and Damage Per Execution). That being the case you would want to load up all your dots, keep them rolling with minimal downtime, and spam your active skill in between.... but how many people are doing that?
The whole math thing works great in WoW because the HP, skills, and effects of enemies are known prior to the encounter.... Diablo's Randomization prevents such knowledge making math-based preparation substantially less accurate.
Anyone remember how hard heroic Faction Champs was until you seriously outgeared it?
TLDR;
Yes math is great. Math will help you succeed in all things blizzard.
Yes I theory craft (and have been for a long time). Yes I enjoy it and will continue to do so.
No I don't believe sheer number crunching will always wield you the greatest results.
Do what feels best and what you enjoy the most.
16GB G Skill Ram ~ 2x Mushkin 120GB SSD's ~ MSI GTX 570 Twin Frozer ~ Asus P8P67 Deluxe
All my text-wall aside - I agree that currently Energy Twiser suxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx!!
It's only really good in a very very densly packed room with a greater area of population than something like Arcane Orb can reach .. which doesn't happen very often... YET >
16GB G Skill Ram ~ 2x Mushkin 120GB SSD's ~ MSI GTX 570 Twin Frozer ~ Asus P8P67 Deluxe