I'm beginning to wonder if AP regen isn't going to be as critical as we think, and that having more total AP isn't as useful as all that. I'm partly basing thing on the fact that storm armor allows you to go from 80 AP to 140 AP with a run. That's almost doubling your AP with a run on an effectively passive "active" ability.
Also, the fact that you can get a passive that provides you another 20 AP total with 2/sec regen. I don't know how fast cast times are going to be, but I'm seriously wondering at this point if, instead of taking these abilities, taking Electrocute or another signature spell and putting runes in it for AP regen will be more useful and powerful than taking these other abilities. If you can regen a huge amount of AP by casting spells that will be way more useful than just having more total AP or faster normal regen. I'd much rather have more regen coming from killing more things than regen coming passively.
I've always been a big fan of having a huge resource pool, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's a good idea in Diablo 3, or if setting yourself up with other options, like for burst damage, etc., are a better focus than just increasing your AP pool and getting faster "base" regen.
Anyone else have thoughts on this based on what we know from the calculator and the Beta?
depends on your skill choice, im going meteor shower, casting it x2 is 120 AP lol i need a higher AP cap to even do my rotation
I guess what I'm wondering though is, instead of doing that rotation, you regen power by doing damage from signature spells. I suppose we don't have solid data on to exact casting speeds, but once we do we can figure out, for example, how much AP casting Magic Missile will regen per second. It's hard to balance things until we have that data.
depends on your skill choice, im going meteor shower, casting it x2 is 120 AP lol i need a higher AP cap to even do my rotation
^ This.
It depends on your skill choice and I believe that is the decision that they want us to make as players and see what we come up with. It seems that for really bursty / high damaging abilities you'd want a bigger pool. But for cheaper or more sustaining damage effects you'd want regen, although I haven't seen if the regen is added while you are actually sustaining a spell such as disintigrate.
I think that it will eventually come to a balance of MAX AP as well as AP/s, especially in PvP because you never want to not be able to cast whether it be running out of the resource or not having it after a relativly high costing spell was cast.
And there's nothing wrong with wanting to use Signature spells as both AP regen + as part of your main attack rotation. I'm seeing lots of builds that specifically exclude signature spells like they are some red headed step child.
Lots of people seem to like Electrocute at lower level, why should it not be just as fun at higher levels and it even get's better when runed.
Personally I love magic missile (maybe its my D&D roots) and I can't wait to make them Homing MM's as well as forked MM's. And doing so will allow me to drop Meteors and Hydra's even if I am only getting 5AP back per cast.
The best part of D3's skill system is that we can switch it all up anytime we want. Finding AP regen not fast enough to satisfy your Meteor Build, swap in more AP regen skills. Found an awesome wand with crazy dmg? Swap in Virtuosity to make the most of it. It technically makes pre planning builds a little moot, but we need something to do till we can get our grubby fingers on the real thing.
The only thing I can add to your OP is that I have been working on some extensive skill calculations, and that different 'Casting Schemes' can yield higher/lower total amounts of damage over time.
I will admit I was surprise when I interpreted the data, but its exponentially more beneficial to have some form of AP reduction skill or a Sig spell doing AP regen. Having a lower regen rate and larger AP pool, according to the data, yeilds lower damage over any amount of time. A slightly lower AP pool with higher regen rate is where you deal the most damage.
I just crunched some numbers on my data set I got going. Ill show you what I mean. Let's take a look a Meteor Shower.
Energy Armor-Indigo (+40 AP), Astral Presence (+20 AP and 2AP/sec regen), and Familiar-Golden (4.5 AP/sec regen)
Over a 20 second time period, you can do 13776 damage.
Now if you utilized a Sig skill, say Magic missile, with golden rune to recoup 14 AP each hit, we'll say you can hit one monster/sec, for best case scenario. And the armor/passives remain the same-
Energy Armor-Indigo (+40 AP), Astral Presence (+20 AP and 2AP/sec regen), and Familiar-Golden (4.5 AP/sec regen)
Over a 20 second time period, you can do 22960 damage.
-----
To further make my point, let's switch out Energy Armor and its +40 increase to our AP pool, and use Storm Armor and get a constant 7 AP reduction in spells used. The passives remain same. But throw out Magic Missile for now. Lets see what the 7 AP reduction cost can do.
Storm Armor-Golden (7 AP reduced each skill,Astral Presence (+20 AP and 2AP/sec regen),Familiar-Gold(4.5AP/sec regen)
Over a 20 second time period, you can do 18368 damage.
Good right?...but not AS good as the second Energy Armor/with Sig spell regenerating AP. Arcane power/second regeneration is KEY to more damage. To finally prove my point:
With that Storm Armor reduction in AP cost, lets throw in MM-Golden again and use it in between castings of Meteor. Our regeneration is now 14 (each hit of MM) and 19 (base regen) for a total of 33 AP/sec regeneration.
Over a 20 second time period, you can 25256 damage.
Again, its not the size of the AP pool that will yeild more damage over time/more castings, but the AP regeneration/reduction in costs.
I guess this is at least partly my point. It's like playing SC2, you want to always have no resources, because that means you're not being efficient. I see Diablo 3 for the Wizard the same way, you regen so fast that being at full AP is just pointless, you should always be burning.
I think regen is obviously going to be important, but I still wonder if you'll be better reducing total AP, reducing passive regen and getting all regen from spells and base regen and then having all your damage spells amped up with runes that do special things and more damage as opposed to reduced AP cost.
It's going to be hard to crunch all numbers at this point, but eventually.
Okay, for example, (I can use any skill you want) I used Ray of Frost, just for discussion.
I left it at BASE regeneration (12.5/sec), I'm using 60% damage increase from Glass Cannon and Familiar-Crimson total. This example will be based over a 40 second time period. The Signature spell used to regenerate AP will, in this case be Magic Missile (+14 AP/hit). If you cast RoF until AP is exhausted, and hit 1 monster/sec with Magic Missile (best case scenario) until AP is full again, and resume RoF until it is exhausted again. Doing this over a 40 second time, there will be a total damage output over that time. Which combination of skills being the more powerful will be shown in the data.
Base regen/Sig spell regenerating AP/RoF - 15,417.6 damage.
----------
Now, take Astral Presence passive to bump AP pool by 20 and give us 2 AP/sec regeneration. We have 14.5 AP/sec regeneration, still 60% damage increase. Same method: Cast RoF until AP is exhausted, use MM until AP is full again, and resume/repeat over a 40 second time period.
The extra 2 AP regenerating every second increase damage output over time by lengthening your cast time before you AP is exhausted. When it finally is exhausted, AP regeneration is quicker, and you're able to start dealing damage again.
----------
Lets take it one step further and use Storm Armor-Golden Rune for a flat 7 AP reduction in costs. Still same 60% increase in damage, still Magic Missile regenerating 14 AP/hit, Astral Presence for that extra 20 AP and 2 AP/sec regen. Same method :
Again, AP regeneration is key to more damage over time.
----------
Take it one, LAST step.
You have the 7 AP reduction in skill costs from Storm Armor, now add Familiar with Golden rune to bump your regeneration rate up to 19 AP/sec. Your casting times will be longer, but your downtime regenerating AP will be shorter.
Over the 40 second time period, you actually will not have ANY downtime. You can cast Ray of Frost for 40 seconds straight with 7 AP reduction and 19 AP regen/sec. This will yield you - 25696 damage.
So basically, regeneration times/passives DO have a substantial affect on your stats. Signature spells for regenerating Arcane Power are definitely a necessity, IMO, or at least 1 signature spell per build for AP regeneration. Base regen, IMO, just won't bring these numbers. Passives are powerful necessities designed to be complimented with other skills. To answer you more directly, a regenerative passive or active (Familiar-Golden) coupled with a AP regenerating signature skill will bring the most damage.
Higher regeneration/Lower AP costs = More skill casts/more damage/shorter downtime
1 mistake DKR_87, your final scenario, adding Familiar with Golden rune, also means the total damage is *1.2 not *1.6. Meaning the dmg is actually lower in your last scenario, it would be 19272 dmg.
Wow lots of calculations but I had to prove a point to myself. Crimson MM is not the way to go IMO, it just doesn't make sense to me why you would use signatures for AP regen only, when you can use it for regen + dmg.
I got roughly the same calculations you had then changed it to an Indigo Rune MM. And yes I know it uses up an additional Passive so some might deem that unworthy but I think it is worth the passive. At the very least, its worth considering. The numbers speak for themselves.
Scenario 1: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Prodigy]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 100
AP Regen = 12.5/sec
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max
= 16710.4 dmg
*************************** 24 sec RoF / 16 sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 100
AP Regen = 12.5/sec
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max
= 19376 dmg
*************************** 20 sec RoF / 20 sec MM
Scenario 2: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM + Astral Presence] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Astral Presence + Prodigy]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 18956.8 dmg
*************************** 28 sec RoF / 12 sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 20640 dmg
*************************** 24 sec RoF / 16 sec MM
Scenario 3: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM + Astral Presence + Crimson Storm Ar] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Astral Presence + Prodigy + Crimson Storm Ar]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-22AP) [Crimson Rune + Storm Armor Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 21203.2 dmg
*************************** 32 sec RoF / 8 Sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-22AP) [Crimson Rune + Storm Armor Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 23168 dmg
*************************** 32 sec RoF / 8 sec MM
PS. We are assuming a casting of 1 MM per sec. If arcane dynamo is anything to go by, we should with +casting gear achieve 8 signatures every 1.5 seconds.
1 mistake DKR_87, your final scenario, adding Familiar with Golden rune, also means the total damage is *1.2 not *1.6. Meaning the dmg is actually lower in your last scenario, it would be 19272 dmg.
Wow lots of calculations but I had to prove a point to myself. Crimson MM is not the way to go IMO, it just doesn't make sense to me why you would use signatures for AP regen only, when you can use it for regen + dmg.
I got roughly the same calculations you had then changed it to an Indigo Rune MM. And yes I know it uses up an additional Passive so some might deem that unworthy but I think it is worth the passive. At the very least, its worth considering. The numbers speak for themselves.
Scenario 1: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Prodigy]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 100
AP Regen = 12.5/sec
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max
= 16710.4 dmg
*************************** 24 sec RoF / 16 sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 100
AP Regen = 12.5/sec
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max
= 19376 dmg
*************************** 20 sec RoF / 20 sec MM
Scenario 2: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM + Astral Presence] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Astral Presence + Prodigy]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 18956.8 dmg
*************************** 28 sec RoF / 12 sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-29AP) [Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 20640 dmg
*************************** 24 sec RoF / 16 sec MM
Scenario 3: [Crimson RoF + Golden MM + Astral Presence + Crimson Storm Ar] vs [Crimson RoF + Indigo MM + Astral Presence + Prodigy + Crimson Storm Ar]
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-22AP) [Crimson Rune + Storm Armor Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 50.5 dmg (+14AP) [Golden Rune]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 21203.2 dmg
*************************** 32 sec RoF / 8 Sec MM
***************************
40 Sec
AP Pool = 120
AP Regen = 14.5/sec [Astral Presence]
RoF/sec = 401.5 dmg (-22AP) [Crimson Rune + Storm Armor Crimson Rune]
MM/Sec = 204 dmg (+5AP) [Indigo Rune+Prodigy]
Total Dmg * 1.6 [Glass Cannon & Familiar Crimson Rune]
Pattern :RoF till out of AP, MM till Max(almost max)
= 23168 dmg
*************************** 32 sec RoF / 8 sec MM
PS. We are assuming a casting of 1 MM per sec. If arcane dynamo is anything to go by, we should with +casting gear achieve 8 signatures every 1.5 seconds.
Very interesting on the Indigo MM with Prodigy. Of course the numbers assume that all 8 hit. There's a vid of rank 1 indigo MM so it seems like with all 8 it'll be a full frontal cone. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to hit with them all.
I think you're a little confused on Dynamo. The 1.5 restriction is to ensure that no mater how fast you cast sig spells, it will always take 12 seconds to get a dynamo charge. It's there to prevent the passive from being 'okay' to 'amazing'. In my opinion they could afford to lower it to 1 from 1.5, it's not a terribly attractive pick as it stands.
Darn, you're right. I thought it was saying we could not get the +50% damage more than once every 1.5 sec. Darn, that passive has really dropped in value.
I am assuming that MM will always hit a target as it does at level 1, the only difference is there are now 8 missiles. So when faced with mobs that block attacks (like the skeleton minons that Leroic summons) even having some missiles blocked would be better than having an entire attack blocked. But only time will tell for sure.
Darn, you're right. I thought it was saying we could not get the +50% damage more than once every 1.5 sec. Darn, that passive has really dropped in value.
I am assuming that MM will always hit a target as it does at level 1, the only difference is there are now 8 missiles. So when faced with mobs that block attacks (like the skeleton minons that Leroic summons) even having some missiles blocked would be better than having an entire attack blocked. But only time will tell for sure.
Ah, by always hit I meant that some of them might just fly off into the distance and not hit anything. Cause the missiles don't lock on. If you launch 8 into a group they're all likely to hit something, if you shoot 8 at a single mob only 1 - 2 would hit I'd imagine.
Since you posted those scenarios, I've been working on some of my own. Not to question your methods, but I was trying to see if I could come up with the numbers myself as well. And I did! (cue confetti) I did several scenarios actually, and found the total damage over 40 seconds for them all. If you wish, I will show you the math, but for here, I'll show you what my result were.
All of the following used Prodigy, Astral Presence,and Storm Armor-Golden 7 AP cost reduction. They are to compare Magic Missile rune effects when using Prodigy to gain 5 AP each MM cast. Over 40 second time period.
RoF & MM-Golden & Familiar-Golden = 19272 damage
Super AP efficiency. 19/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 19 AP gained with MM hit.
RoF & MM-Golden & Familiar-Crimson = 20560.8 damage
Great AP efficiency with damage boost. 14.5/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 19 AP gained with MM hit.
RoF & MM-Crimson & Familiar-Crimson = 21520 damage
Good AP regen with higher damage overal. 14.5/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 5 AP gained with MM hit.
RoF & MM-Indigo & Familiar-Crimson = 22852 damage
Same AP stats as above, except this has the 'potential' for higher MM missile. Again, 'potential'
I really find MM-Indigo (Fork) appealing. I'm curious as to how viable it will be, considering the unknowns like the spread size or so forth.
EDIT - Question, If you had 60% dmg increase from Gl.Cannon and Familiar-Crimson, how much damage would Arcane Torrent-Crimson do?
It says AT-Crimson enemies become disrupted and take 120% more arcane damage. So ArcTorrent is arcane damage, so right away, from the first hit of ArcTorr on the enemy they will take 120% more damage from ArcTorr immediately? for as long as you can cast it? It says 6 seconds, but if you continuously cast ArcTorr, they'll continuously take 120% more damage from it....?
Ah, by always hit I meant that some of them might just fly off into the distance and not hit anything. Cause the missiles don't lock on. If you launch 8 into a group they're all likely to hit something, if you shoot 8 at a single mob only 1 - 2 would hit I'd imagine.
Hmmm I guess it could work that way too. But I've got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed that it works the way I envision it to, all 8 will hit the same target
I really find MM-Indigo (Fork) appealing. I'm curious as to how viable it will be, considering the unknowns like the spread size or so forth.
EDIT - Question, If you had 60% dmg increase from Gl.Cannon and Familiar-Crimson, how much damage would Arcane Torrent-Crimson do?
Glad that I've at least generated some curiosity into Magic Missile. Have I mentioned I love the spell? (Visions of D&D 1st edition, 1 missile every 2 levels).
I have been eyeing Arcane Torrent, and I interpret it as calc damage, add Attack attribute Dmg, multiply by 1.6, and multiply again by 2.2 But then again that's a lot of damage, and I don't quite understand if AT does area dmg? casting delay? Or does it deal dmg at the precise point the mouse is over, and instead of a ray it just... does damage.
Ah, by always hit I meant that some of them might just fly off into the distance and not hit anything. Cause the missiles don't lock on. If you launch 8 into a group they're all likely to hit something, if you shoot 8 at a single mob only 1 - 2 would hit I'd imagine.
Hmmm I guess it could work that way too. But I've got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed that it works the way I envision it to, all 8 will hit the same target
I really find MM-Indigo (Fork) appealing. I'm curious as to how viable it will be, considering the unknowns like the spread size or so forth.
EDIT - Question, If you had 60% dmg increase from Gl.Cannon and Familiar-Crimson, how much damage would Arcane Torrent-Crimson do?
Glad that I've at least generated some curiosity into Magic Missile. Have I mentioned I love the spell? (Visions of D&D 1st edition, 1 missile every 2 levels).
I have been eyeing Arcane Torrent, and I interpret it as calc damage, add Attack attribute Dmg, multiply by 1.6, and multiply again by 2.2 But then again that's a lot of damage, and I don't quite understand if AT does area dmg? casting delay? Or does it deal dmg at the precise point the mouse is over, and instead of a ray it just... does damage.
Totally random side note:
Yes, I love Magic Missile from D&D. In 3.5 I built an Epic Spell with MM as the seed. Upped the missile count to 20 and the damage from d4s to d20s. Yah. 20d20, no save, no attack role, guaranteed damage. Called it Missile Storm. It was sick.
I just wondered...concerning our conversation about MM-Indigo vs MM-Crimson and all that...
Is MM-Crimson/Indigo the highest damaging Sig skill? <<<<< I thought to myself.
Shock Pulse-Crimson looks awfully attractive.
If all 8 missile from Fork hits a target, you'll do 204 avg damage. (not calculating in passives/buffs) Hitting all 8 might prove to be difficult!
If only 2 Fire bolts hit a target, you can do 210. While only 1 may hit, (110.5 dmg), you do have the possibility of doing 331.5 dmg if all 3 hit. PLUS getting the 5 AP from Prodigy but doing more damage!.
I'll try to remember to work out some numbers to see if Shock Pulse-Crimson has an edge of MM-Indigo. It does over MM-Crimson for sure.
I just wondered...concerning our conversation about MM-Indigo vs MM-Crimson and all that...
Is MM-Crimson/Indigo the highest damaging Sig skill? <<<<< I thought to myself.
Shock Pulse-Crimson looks awfully attractive.
If all 8 missile from Fork hits a target, you'll do 204 avg damage. (not calculating in passives/buffs) Hitting all 8 might prove to be difficult!
If only 2 Fire bolts hit a target, you can do 210. While only 1 may hit, (110.5 dmg), you do have the possibility of doing 331.5 dmg if all 3 hit. PLUS getting the 5 AP from Prodigy but doing more damage!.
I'll try to remember to work out some numbers to see if Shock Pulse-Crimson has an edge of MM-Indigo. It does over MM-Crimson for sure.
DKR
Ohhh good find. Shock Pulse seems very promising. I wonder if there is a short casting cooldown on this because I expected this to act like the Charged Bolt in D2, however I don't think I've seen any footage of spamming of this spell which makes me wonder why.
One danger of Shock Pulse if it acts like Charged Bolt, is that to get full effect from the spell, you would have to be quite close to the target for them to receive the dmg from all the bolts. But that's only for elites and above, and sadly no chance of a 22+ bolt build which carried me through Hell in D2.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Also, the fact that you can get a passive that provides you another 20 AP total with 2/sec regen. I don't know how fast cast times are going to be, but I'm seriously wondering at this point if, instead of taking these abilities, taking Electrocute or another signature spell and putting runes in it for AP regen will be more useful and powerful than taking these other abilities. If you can regen a huge amount of AP by casting spells that will be way more useful than just having more total AP or faster normal regen. I'd much rather have more regen coming from killing more things than regen coming passively.
I've always been a big fan of having a huge resource pool, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's a good idea in Diablo 3, or if setting yourself up with other options, like for burst damage, etc., are a better focus than just increasing your AP pool and getting faster "base" regen.
Anyone else have thoughts on this based on what we know from the calculator and the Beta?
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I guess what I'm wondering though is, instead of doing that rotation, you regen power by doing damage from signature spells. I suppose we don't have solid data on to exact casting speeds, but once we do we can figure out, for example, how much AP casting Magic Missile will regen per second. It's hard to balance things until we have that data.
Speaking of that, do we have that data somewhere?
^ This.
It depends on your skill choice and I believe that is the decision that they want us to make as players and see what we come up with. It seems that for really bursty / high damaging abilities you'd want a bigger pool. But for cheaper or more sustaining damage effects you'd want regen, although I haven't seen if the regen is added while you are actually sustaining a spell such as disintigrate.
I think that it will eventually come to a balance of MAX AP as well as AP/s, especially in PvP because you never want to not be able to cast whether it be running out of the resource or not having it after a relativly high costing spell was cast.
Lots of people seem to like Electrocute at lower level, why should it not be just as fun at higher levels and it even get's better when runed.
Personally I love magic missile (maybe its my D&D roots) and I can't wait to make them Homing MM's as well as forked MM's. And doing so will allow me to drop Meteors and Hydra's even if I am only getting 5AP back per cast.
The best part of D3's skill system is that we can switch it all up anytime we want. Finding AP regen not fast enough to satisfy your Meteor Build, swap in more AP regen skills. Found an awesome wand with crazy dmg? Swap in Virtuosity to make the most of it. It technically makes pre planning builds a little moot, but we need something to do till we can get our grubby fingers on the real thing.
I will admit I was surprise when I interpreted the data, but its exponentially more beneficial to have some form of AP reduction skill or a Sig spell doing AP regen. Having a lower regen rate and larger AP pool, according to the data, yeilds lower damage over any amount of time. A slightly lower AP pool with higher regen rate is where you deal the most damage.
I just crunched some numbers on my data set I got going. Ill show you what I mean. Let's take a look a Meteor Shower.
Energy Armor-Indigo (+40 AP), Astral Presence (+20 AP and 2AP/sec regen), and Familiar-Golden (4.5 AP/sec regen)
Over a 20 second time period, you can do 13776 damage.
Now if you utilized a Sig skill, say Magic missile, with golden rune to recoup 14 AP each hit, we'll say you can hit one monster/sec, for best case scenario. And the armor/passives remain the same-
Energy Armor-Indigo (+40 AP), Astral Presence (+20 AP and 2AP/sec regen), and Familiar-Golden (4.5 AP/sec regen)
Over a 20 second time period, you can do 22960 damage.
-----
To further make my point, let's switch out Energy Armor and its +40 increase to our AP pool, and use Storm Armor and get a constant 7 AP reduction in spells used. The passives remain same. But throw out Magic Missile for now. Lets see what the 7 AP reduction cost can do.
Storm Armor-Golden (7 AP reduced each skill,Astral Presence (+20 AP and 2AP/sec regen),Familiar-Gold(4.5AP/sec regen)
Over a 20 second time period, you can do 18368 damage.
Good right?...but not AS good as the second Energy Armor/with Sig spell regenerating AP. Arcane power/second regeneration is KEY to more damage. To finally prove my point:
With that Storm Armor reduction in AP cost, lets throw in MM-Golden again and use it in between castings of Meteor. Our regeneration is now 14 (each hit of MM) and 19 (base regen) for a total of 33 AP/sec regeneration.
Over a 20 second time period, you can 25256 damage.
Again, its not the size of the AP pool that will yeild more damage over time/more castings, but the AP regeneration/reduction in costs.
Take care,
DKR
I think regen is obviously going to be important, but I still wonder if you'll be better reducing total AP, reducing passive regen and getting all regen from spells and base regen and then having all your damage spells amped up with runes that do special things and more damage as opposed to reduced AP cost.
It's going to be hard to crunch all numbers at this point, but eventually.
Let me get to work on that Clyph
I left it at BASE regeneration (12.5/sec), I'm using 60% damage increase from Glass Cannon and Familiar-Crimson total. This example will be based over a 40 second time period. The Signature spell used to regenerate AP will, in this case be Magic Missile (+14 AP/hit). If you cast RoF until AP is exhausted, and hit 1 monster/sec with Magic Missile (best case scenario) until AP is full again, and resume RoF until it is exhausted again. Doing this over a 40 second time, there will be a total damage output over that time. Which combination of skills being the more powerful will be shown in the data.
Base regen/Sig spell regenerating AP/RoF - 15,417.6 damage.
----------
Now, take Astral Presence passive to bump AP pool by 20 and give us 2 AP/sec regeneration. We have 14.5 AP/sec regeneration, still 60% damage increase. Same method: Cast RoF until AP is exhausted, use MM until AP is full again, and resume/repeat over a 40 second time period.
14.5 regen/Sig Spell regenerating AP/RoF - 17987.2 damage.
The extra 2 AP regenerating every second increase damage output over time by lengthening your cast time before you AP is exhausted. When it finally is exhausted, AP regeneration is quicker, and you're able to start dealing damage again.
----------
Lets take it one step further and use Storm Armor-Golden Rune for a flat 7 AP reduction in costs. Still same 60% increase in damage, still Magic Missile regenerating 14 AP/hit, Astral Presence for that extra 20 AP and 2 AP/sec regen. Same method :
14.5 regen/Sig spel regen AP/RoF/St.Armor- 19914.4 damage
Again, AP regeneration is key to more damage over time.
----------
Take it one, LAST step.
You have the 7 AP reduction in skill costs from Storm Armor, now add Familiar with Golden rune to bump your regeneration rate up to 19 AP/sec. Your casting times will be longer, but your downtime regenerating AP will be shorter.
Over the 40 second time period, you actually will not have ANY downtime. You can cast Ray of Frost for 40 seconds straight with 7 AP reduction and 19 AP regen/sec. This will yield you - 25696 damage.
So basically, regeneration times/passives DO have a substantial affect on your stats. Signature spells for regenerating Arcane Power are definitely a necessity, IMO, or at least 1 signature spell per build for AP regeneration. Base regen, IMO, just won't bring these numbers. Passives are powerful necessities designed to be complimented with other skills. To answer you more directly, a regenerative passive or active (Familiar-Golden) coupled with a AP regenerating signature skill will bring the most damage.
Higher regeneration/Lower AP costs = More skill casts/more damage/shorter downtime
DKR
thanks bud
Wow lots of calculations but I had to prove a point to myself. Crimson MM is not the way to go IMO, it just doesn't make sense to me why you would use signatures for AP regen only, when you can use it for regen + dmg.
I got roughly the same calculations you had then changed it to an Indigo Rune MM. And yes I know it uses up an additional Passive so some might deem that unworthy but I think it is worth the passive. At the very least, its worth considering. The numbers speak for themselves.
PS. We are assuming a casting of 1 MM per sec. If arcane dynamo is anything to go by, we should with +casting gear achieve 8 signatures every 1.5 seconds.
Very interesting on the Indigo MM with Prodigy. Of course the numbers assume that all 8 hit. There's a vid of rank 1 indigo MM so it seems like with all 8 it'll be a full frontal cone. I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to hit with them all.
I think you're a little confused on Dynamo. The 1.5 restriction is to ensure that no mater how fast you cast sig spells, it will always take 12 seconds to get a dynamo charge. It's there to prevent the passive from being 'okay' to 'amazing'. In my opinion they could afford to lower it to 1 from 1.5, it's not a terribly attractive pick as it stands.
I am assuming that MM will always hit a target as it does at level 1, the only difference is there are now 8 missiles. So when faced with mobs that block attacks (like the skeleton minons that Leroic summons) even having some missiles blocked would be better than having an entire attack blocked. But only time will tell for sure.
Ah, by always hit I meant that some of them might just fly off into the distance and not hit anything. Cause the missiles don't lock on. If you launch 8 into a group they're all likely to hit something, if you shoot 8 at a single mob only 1 - 2 would hit I'd imagine.
All of the following used Prodigy, Astral Presence,and Storm Armor-Golden 7 AP cost reduction. They are to compare Magic Missile rune effects when using Prodigy to gain 5 AP each MM cast. Over 40 second time period.
RoF & MM-Golden & Familiar-Golden = 19272 damage
Super AP efficiency. 19/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 19 AP gained with MM hit.
RoF & MM-Golden & Familiar-Crimson = 20560.8 damage
Great AP efficiency with damage boost. 14.5/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 19 AP gained with MM hit.
RoF & MM-Crimson & Familiar-Crimson = 21520 damage
Good AP regen with higher damage overal. 14.5/s AP regen, 7 AP cost reduction, and 5 AP gained with MM hit.
RoF & MM-Indigo & Familiar-Crimson = 22852 damage
Same AP stats as above, except this has the 'potential' for higher MM missile. Again, 'potential'
I really find MM-Indigo (Fork) appealing. I'm curious as to how viable it will be, considering the unknowns like the spread size or so forth.
EDIT - Question, If you had 60% dmg increase from Gl.Cannon and Familiar-Crimson, how much damage would Arcane Torrent-Crimson do?
It says AT-Crimson enemies become disrupted and take 120% more arcane damage. So ArcTorrent is arcane damage, so right away, from the first hit of ArcTorr on the enemy they will take 120% more damage from ArcTorr immediately? for as long as you can cast it? It says 6 seconds, but if you continuously cast ArcTorr, they'll continuously take 120% more damage from it....?
Confusing?
Glad that I've at least generated some curiosity into Magic Missile. Have I mentioned I love the spell? (Visions of D&D 1st edition, 1 missile every 2 levels).
I have been eyeing Arcane Torrent, and I interpret it as calc damage, add Attack attribute Dmg, multiply by 1.6, and multiply again by 2.2 But then again that's a lot of damage, and I don't quite understand if AT does area dmg? casting delay? Or does it deal dmg at the precise point the mouse is over, and instead of a ray it just... does damage.
Totally random side note:
Yes, I love Magic Missile from D&D. In 3.5 I built an Epic Spell with MM as the seed. Upped the missile count to 20 and the damage from d4s to d20s. Yah. 20d20, no save, no attack role, guaranteed damage. Called it Missile Storm. It was sick.
I just wondered...concerning our conversation about MM-Indigo vs MM-Crimson and all that...
Is MM-Crimson/Indigo the highest damaging Sig skill? <<<<< I thought to myself.
Shock Pulse-Crimson looks awfully attractive.
If all 8 missile from Fork hits a target, you'll do 204 avg damage. (not calculating in passives/buffs) Hitting all 8 might prove to be difficult!
If only 2 Fire bolts hit a target, you can do 210. While only 1 may hit, (110.5 dmg), you do have the possibility of doing 331.5 dmg if all 3 hit. PLUS getting the 5 AP from Prodigy but doing more damage!.
I'll try to remember to work out some numbers to see if Shock Pulse-Crimson has an edge of MM-Indigo. It does over MM-Crimson for sure.
DKR
One danger of Shock Pulse if it acts like Charged Bolt, is that to get full effect from the spell, you would have to be quite close to the target for them to receive the dmg from all the bolts. But that's only for elites and above, and sadly no chance of a 22+ bolt build which carried me through Hell in D2.