Poison or Fire?

Poll: Which is better for elemental? Poison or Fire?

Which is better for elemental? Poison or Fire? - Single Choice

  • Poison 53.7%
  • Fire 46.3%
  • #1
    Just a simple question, which do you guys think is better as an elemental stat? Poison or Fire? Perhaps add a reason as to why you like that specific element. if you want to.
    ~NCSledge
  • #2
    Poison, because fire is completely useless on Witch Doctor. Firebats fire runes are a joke in ROS. Explosive beast doesn't even compete in anyway with zombie bears, the firebomb signature spells are also a joke and do not compete with the mana you get back from spirit barrage/rune of essense, or poison dart - spined dart/vision quest. Flame dart is a horrible single target spell, in fact most of the Witch doctors signature spells are utterly useless. They just don't do enough damage. Poison all the way without doubt, your options are much greater. The only other option is physical vs poison. But unless you are doing a pet specific build, which most are, poison is the way to go.
  • #3
    Quote from sOFrOsTy

    Poison, because fire is completely useless on Witch Doctor. Firebats fire runes are a joke in ROS. Explosive beast doesn't even compete in anyway with zombie bears, the firebomb signature spells are also a joke and do not compete with the mana you get back from spirit barrage/rune of essense, or poison dart - spined dart/vision quest. Flame dart is a horrible single target spell, in fact most of the Witch doctors signature spells are utterly useless. They just don't do enough damage. Poison all the way without doubt, your options are much greater. The only other option is physical vs poison. But unless you are doing a pet specific build, which most are, poison is the way to go.

    Interesting, I've just recently begun to compare the two, mostly for a pet build. But I started peeling my eyes when I was going for the Piranha achievement, and was trying to make something work for the time I was using Piranhas. I did experiment a bit, and I did find some uses for fire being really effective. The two fire fetishes seem to be able to absolutely shred anything once they are unleashed. And since blizzard somewhat buffed the Fire Pillars, I've also started liking that. But you do have some good points. Poison seems to function better in overall builds.
    ~NCSledge
  • #4
    As I wrote here http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-class-forums/witch-doctor-the-mbwiru-eikura/50783-witch-doctor-gear-and-spec-progression-through?comment=75 I find poison more effective.

    However, it is possible to stack more fire damage than poison damage, so I am not excluding that with a top equip fire can be more effective. Also, using frogs and/or firebats it is possible to use pierce the veil.
    Last edited by had0r: 4/21/2014 4:38:20 AM
  • #5
    Well the reason poison is preferred, is because it also offers the most variety. Every rune for Acid cloud is poison. 4 of 5 runes for locust swarm are poison. 4 of 5 runes for poison darts are poison. 4 of 5 runes for plagued toads are poison. zombie charged is 1 physical, 1 cold, 1 fire, 2 poison, and lets be honest, zombie bears, the best one, is poison. There just aren't enough damage dealing skills for the witch doctor to go around and spread to the different elements. and btw, fetish army blow darts rune, makes all the melee hit for poison damage, though not labeled in the rune, I tested this personally.
  • #6
    I'm gonna be that guy who says neither. Do whatever you like, it is both viable.
    Quote from sOFrOsTy

    Poison, because fire is completely useless on Witch Doctor.

    Gargantuan - Wrathful protector. Melts faces.

    If you have Rhen'ho Flayer, explosive toads. Works without it too, for me. I even use Flame Dart atm, I like to have one spell that can be used from far away and it proccs thunderfury all the time. Yes, fire might be more suited for pet builds...but "completely useless"?

    Any yes I have also tried poison builds, they work too.
  • #7
    Quote from sOFrOsTy

    Well the reason poison is preferred, is because it also offers the most variety. Every rune for Acid cloud is poison. 4 of 5 runes for locust swarm are poison. 4 of 5 runes for poison darts are poison. 4 of 5 runes for plagued toads are poison. zombie charged is 1 physical, 1 cold, 1 fire, 2 poison, and lets be honest, zombie bears, the best one, is poison. There just aren't enough damage dealing skills for the witch doctor to go around and spread to the different elements. and btw, fetish army blow darts rune, makes all the melee hit for poison damage, though not labeled in the rune, I tested this personally.

    well, the only poison damage spell worth it is zombie bears, the rest is quite useless - also stacking poison damage I still do more damage with spirit barrage than poison dart (where the only usable skill is splinter), acid cloud is generally useless when running high torment (low damage and high mana usage), and the only frog rune that I would use is explosive frogs that is fire...

    the fetish part is interesting I will test it since I'm running zuni-bears, although it sounds strange to me...
  • #8
    Quote from sOFrOsTy

    Poison, because fire is completely useless on Witch Doctor. Firebats fire runes are a joke in ROS. Explosive beast doesn't even compete in anyway with zombie bears, the firebomb signature spells are also a joke and do not compete with the mana you get back from spirit barrage/rune of essense, or poison dart - spined dart/vision quest. Flame dart is a horrible single target spell, in fact most of the Witch doctors signature spells are utterly useless. They just don't do enough damage. Poison all the way without doubt, your options are much greater. The only other option is physical vs poison. But unless you are doing a pet specific build, which most are, poison is the way to go.

    I would argue the 2 strongest/most common builds use fire/physical and cold

    - To elaborate, the general pet build uses physical damage to buff pets and fire to buff firebats and garg damage. In fact I think its among the most efficient builds in the game right now for both sc and hc. The other being the standard dot based build that does have some variations, though the majority of damage coming from cold.

    Sure there are more runes for poison based skills, but that doesnt make them the best
    Last edited by Krowzzer: 4/21/2014 5:27:45 AM
  • #9
    Physical/Fire for me atm although i am having a hard time finding fire gear.

    Had a poison build before with 60% poison but im all about pets now, and if you have pets its fire/physical.
  • #10
    Quote from Krowzzer
    Quote from sOFrOsTy

    Poison, because fire is completely useless on Witch Doctor. Firebats fire runes are a joke in ROS. Explosive beast doesn't even compete in anyway with zombie bears, the firebomb signature spells are also a joke and do not compete with the mana you get back from spirit barrage/rune of essense, or poison dart - spined dart/vision quest. Flame dart is a horrible single target spell, in fact most of the Witch doctors signature spells are utterly useless. They just don't do enough damage. Poison all the way without doubt, your options are much greater. The only other option is physical vs poison. But unless you are doing a pet specific build, which most are, poison is the way to go.

    I would argue the 2 strongest/most common builds use fire/physical and cold

    - To elaborate, the general pet build uses physical damage to buff pets and fire to buff firebats and garg damage. In fact I think its among the most efficient builds in the game right now for both sc and hc. The other being the standard dot based build that does have some variations, though the majority of damage coming from cold.

    Sure there are more runes for poison based skills, but that doesnt make them the best

    The damage of fetishes is great but still suffers from the AI of the pets and the fact that the pets have to run toward a target and hit it. In a perfect situation where you have 7-12 pets that instantly hit one target they are great, but most of the time their dps is split between different mobs and they spend a lot of time just jumping around - this is far from being efficient, also because they don't really benefit from pirhanado/taunt spells.
    For these reasons fetishes alone (in my opinion) cannot be the only and main form of dps, and since I found firebat dps much lower than the one of zombie bears (why? I don't know, the dps should be comparable according to the tooltip), I still consider a pet-bears build better than a pure pet one. But you need zuni to do it...

    ps. I tested what sOFro said about blow darts rune, to me he is wrong and melee fetishes do psychical damage as always.
  • #11
    Wrathful protector is fire
    Burning dogs is fire
    Vampire bats is fire

    If I had a huge amount of %fire damage I would even give searing locusts a try.
  • #12
    To be totally honest, it doesn't really matter what's the most effective because really, the 4 different elements (Fire, Cold, Physical, Poison) are all quite close to each other in damage dealing terms, the important part is which of the elements has the spells that you prefer using.
    My goal is to simply have a set of gear for each element, allowing me to switch over and play what ever I prefer; rarely have I ever chosen a build based on power - it's usually the entertainment of the build that attracts me.
    Right now, I'm playing a Carnevil poison build. It's pretty awesome when you get max fetishes up and start blow darting the whole screen :D Yet, I'm also collecting gear for my spirit barrage/Haunt/Quetz build. Still waiting for a Rhen'ho for my fire toads/searing locusts/firebats build. And of course I have a physical set for my pet/jeram build.
    Oh, and I also have a badass thorns invoker set, for pet thorns build.
    My point is, with the correct gear you can make any element work, and it's hard to say which is "better". The most important thing to remember is; Collect all the gear!
    Last edited by Snaps: 4/21/2014 6:26:49 AM
  • #13
    The fetish AI really isn't bad. They're quick, attack fast, and stay on target. It also helps that they hit extremely hard with the right gear and have very reliable toughness. A lot of the pet AI complaints are guided towards the garg, which can be annoying. He has pathing issues that can often be fixed by repositioning yourself.

    And firebats does reasonable damage for its mana investment and can be further buffed with PTV. The "proper playstyle" for pet builds is to use the bats to quickly dps down the small insignificant mobs so your pets will focus the major threats and take them down quickly. This is especially important with a garg that can 1-2 shot lower torment packs with just average gear. Also, not a lot of people mention that just having an additional 12+ enemies to target greatly increases your effective toughness allowing you to enter higher difficulties at lower gear levels than other classes would normally require.

    Efficiency can't be measure by just flat burst aoe dps, it has many more dimensions that just that. The more you pull, the more you cast, the more pets you generate, the more toughness you generate, the more effective dps you do. Like I said, its among the best specs, not necessarily THE best. It has its flaws but also tremendous strengths
  • #14
    fire

    my wrathfull protector crits for 65 mio and with grave injustice the up time is almost 100 %
  • #15
    Quote from Krowzzer

    The fetish AI really isn't bad. They're quick, attack fast, and stay on target. It also helps that they hit extremely hard with the right gear and have very reliable toughness. A lot of the pet AI complaints are guided towards the garg, which can be annoying. He has pathing issues that can often be fixed by repositioning yourself.

    And firebats does reasonable damage for its mana investment and can be further buffed with PTV. The "proper playstyle" for pet builds is to use the bats to quickly dps down the small insignificant mobs so your pets will focus the major threats and take them down quickly. This is especially important with a garg that can 1-2 shot lower torment packs with just average gear. Also, not a lot of people mention that just having an additional 12+ enemies to target greatly increases your effective toughness allowing you to enter higher difficulties at lower gear levels than other classes would normally require.

    Efficiency can't be measure by just flat burst aoe dps, it has many more dimensions that just that. The more you pull, the more you cast, the more pets you generate, the more toughness you generate, the more effective dps you do. Like I said, its among the best specs, not necessarily THE best. It has its flaws but also tremendous strengths

    But I don't understand why you associate pets with fire. While the most common fetish build uses firebats to spam pets, fetishes are on physical and once you have the zuni set you are not forced to use firebats to spam them anymore. My question is, assuming having the zuni set (that I have, although with horrible stats :| ), is it still convenient to run a fire build? My guess is no, currently I am running with zombie-fetishes (poison and physical damage, zuni set and mask of jeram) and it seems to be much better than the "classic" pet spec. I mean, it is the same BUT you can burst a lot of damage by yourself.You lose the garga, but with slam dance and 10-12 fetishes you get usually the same result.

    Problem is that this is more a feeling than a real feedback, since I don't have an equally good fire damage gear to deeply test the differences between the two set ups.
  • #16
    Quote from sOFrOsTy

    Well the reason poison is preferred, is because it also offers the most variety. Every rune for Acid cloud is poison. 4 of 5 runes for locust swarm are poison. 4 of 5 runes for poison darts are poison. 4 of 5 runes for plagued toads are poison. zombie charged is 1 physical, 1 cold, 1 fire, 2 poison, and lets be honest, zombie bears, the best one, is poison. There just aren't enough damage dealing skills for the witch doctor to go around and spread to the different elements. and btw, fetish army blow darts rune, makes all the melee hit for poison damage, though not labeled in the rune, I tested this personally.


    That is what I've been thinking recently.



    Quote from had0r

    But I don't understand why you associate pets with fire. While the most common fetish build uses firebats to spam pets, fetishes are on physical and once you have the zuni set you are not forced to use firebats to spam them anymore. My question is, assuming having the zuni set (that I have, although with horrible stats :| ), is it still convenient to run a fire build? My guess is no, currently I am running with zombie-fetishes (poison and physical damage, zuni set and mask of jeram) and it seems to be much better than the "classic" pet spec. I mean, it is the same BUT you can burst a lot of damage by yourself.You lose the garga, but with slam dance and 10-12 fetishes you get usually the same result.



    Problem is that this is more a feeling than a real feedback, since I don't have an equally good fire damage gear to deeply test the differences between the two set ups.


    There are also runes on pets that include fire/poison damage. And I was searching for more of a feeling. :) just to see what people think about specific skills.
    ~NCSledge
  • #17
    Quote from had0r
    Quote from Krowzzer

    The fetish AI really isn't bad. They're quick, attack fast, and stay on target. It also helps that they hit extremely hard with the right gear and have very reliable toughness. A lot of the pet AI complaints are guided towards the garg, which can be annoying. He has pathing issues that can often be fixed by repositioning yourself.

    And firebats does reasonable damage for its mana investment and can be further buffed with PTV. The "proper playstyle" for pet builds is to use the bats to quickly dps down the small insignificant mobs so your pets will focus the major threats and take them down quickly. This is especially important with a garg that can 1-2 shot lower torment packs with just average gear. Also, not a lot of people mention that just having an additional 12+ enemies to target greatly increases your effective toughness allowing you to enter higher difficulties at lower gear levels than other classes would normally require.

    Efficiency can't be measure by just flat burst aoe dps, it has many more dimensions that just that. The more you pull, the more you cast, the more pets you generate, the more toughness you generate, the more effective dps you do. Like I said, its among the best specs, not necessarily THE best. It has its flaws but also tremendous strengths

    But I don't understand why you associate pets with fire. While the most common fetish build uses firebats to spam pets, fetishes are on physical and once you have the zuni set you are not forced to use firebats to spam them anymore. My question is, assuming having the zuni set (that I have, although with horrible stats :| ), is it still convenient to run a fire build? My guess is no, currently I am running with zombie-fetishes (poison and physical damage, zuni set and mask of jeram) and it seems to be much better than the "classic" pet spec. I mean, it is the same BUT you can burst a lot of damage by yourself.You lose the garga, but with slam dance and 10-12 fetishes you get usually the same result.

    Problem is that this is more a feeling than a real feedback, since I don't have an equally good fire damage gear to deeply test the differences between the two set ups.

    You would still want to use firebats. Once you have the zuni set, you can use fetish army to get you started, but you will still want to generate more and more fetishes. If you use fetish army, it kills all of your fetishes summoned and gives you the 5 from the ability. Its not something you can use on CD to continuously generate more and more.

    Also, you will get better numbers if you split your focus on fire & physical damage boosts than if you were to just focus on one or the other. Physical will buff your fetish damage, fire will buff your personal dps as well as burst from the garg

    Edit: to further elaborate on why you still want firebats, it ticks at twice your APS and has no mana cost for the channel, making it by far the best way to generate endless fetishes, which is the bread and butter of the specs dps. The rain of toads rune ticks at 1.5x your aps, and every other skill is just 1xaps. This is why firebats is generally considered best
    Last edited by Krowzzer: 4/21/2014 12:13:43 PM
  • #18
    Quote from Krowzzer
    Quote from undefined »

    You would still want to use firebats. Once you have the zuni set, you can use fetish army to get you started, but you will still want to generate more and more fetishes. If you use fetish army, it kills all of your fetishes summoned and gives you the 5 from the ability. Its not something you can use on CD to continuously generate more and more.

    Also, you will get better numbers if you split your focus on fire & physical damage boosts than if you were to just focus on one or the other. Physical will buff your fetish damage, fire will buff your personal dps as well as burst from the garg

    Edit: to further elaborate on why you still want firebats, it ticks at twice your APS and has no mana cost for the channel, making it by far the best way to generate endless fetishes, which is the bread and butter of the specs dps. The rain of toads rune ticks at 1.5x your aps, and every other skill is just 1xaps. This is why firebats is generally considered best

    Fetish spam also using bears, although not as efficiently as with firebats.
  • #19
    Quote from sOFrOsTy

    Poison, because fire is completely useless on Witch Doctor. Firebats fire runes are a joke in ROS. Explosive beast doesn't even compete in anyway with zombie bears, the firebomb signature spells are also a joke and do not compete with the mana you get back from spirit barrage/rune of essense, or poison dart - spined dart/vision quest. Flame dart is a horrible single target spell, in fact most of the Witch doctors signature spells are utterly useless. They just don't do enough damage. Poison all the way without doubt, your options are much greater. The only other option is physical vs poison. But unless you are doing a pet specific build, which most are, poison is the way to go.

    Completely useless? I wouldn't say that. I farm T4-T6 just fine with stacking fire skills

    WP is fire and hits like a truck for me
    Vampire bats is fire and procs the most fetish's from passive and still deals decent amount of constant damage.
  • #20
    Have you guys seen this thread? http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12412051196?page=1

    And in particular this part:-

    Fetish Army (runes with dagger type) - all fetishes output Physical damage.
    Fetish Army (Tiki) - all 5 melee and 2 torches output Fire damage.
    Fetish Army (Head Hunters) - all 5 melee and 2 head hunters output Poison damage.

    I was very confused about which element to stack as stacking both fire and physical didn't make sense to me at all. Now I've dropped the physical damage and gone full fire and it's SO much better. The quoted thread was a complete game changer for me.

    Build + gear is here if you are interested. http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/kevorkian-2578/Alice/33303102
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