WD : False Damage with AS and DoT Spells

  • #1
    Hey fellow WDs, I had a question regarding attack speed:
    let's say we have a Lacuni's with like 80 intel, 8ias and 4.5 crit vs. a rare bracer with 160 intel and 6 crit; my sheet DPS drops by 5k; it's obviously due to the fact the sheet paper DPS is calculated by the IAS as well: DPS over time.

    However, with DoT spells like Acid Cloud and Locust Swarm, ias really isn't a factor for more ticks, correct? So, basically, this is just 'false' DPS and the rare bracers are better, right? (I'm already running 24MS without Lacuni's).
  • #2
    You are quite right, IAS does not affect DoT's in any way (only the speed at which you can cast the spell, which is rather pointless as dots don't stack).

    And dots like the one from locust swarm can't crit either (not yet atleast *hint* Blizzard *hint*) so the crit chance is not really adding anything to that either. If you want the highest possible locust swarm ticks you should stack average dmg, high weapon dmg (if you go black dmg x%elemental dmg too) and ofcourse intelligence... Personally i hope Blizzard is gonna incorporate some of the other dmg stats to work on dots, because Locust Swarm would be awesome if for example it was able to crit, or atleast had more ticks based on attack speed.

    I have this dot build of sorts where i use plague bats and locust swarm, it's tons of fun, but even though i run 270k+ dps the ticks are not even strong enough to make the build viable after mp3 or so, really a huge shame as it opens up a whole new world of WD gameplay.
  • #3
    Oh yeah, I know! I'm using a Locust Swarm build with AC on the side with black damage, good minimum damage and raw + % dmg (Demons, Elites, Elemental, Locust skill itself, etc.)

    Just to keep the discussion going: I thought Locust could crit, but only on cast? So, you cast them and it crits the entire way (or only on the initial hit) or it doesn't. But I've read somewhere that it can actually crit, but it's not displayed like actual critting. I also stack crit because I use AC and Widowmakers as well and I don't mind them critting, not at all. ;)

    Good to know that my theory is confirmed. Basically Lacuni's, for us non-AS-based-WDs, is just absolutely useless. (if you already have the MS, that is).

    And I agree, Locust is just only really interesting from mp0 to mp2, max. It's a spec for speedrunning, nothing else.
  • #4
    So, I did some testing to see whether Locust Swarm can crit or not, just to be sure, because it never shows any real numbers.
    I used the Scoundrel with Hysteria to see if my damage rose when critting. With Locust, it never moved, but every time I hit a crit with Acid Cloud, my dmg went up.

    I think this confirms that Locust can't crit.

    Blizzard ... fix this, please! Ha!
  • #5

    it's obviously due to the fact the sheet paper DPS is calculated by the IAS as well: DPS over time.


    DPS stands for Damage per second, so yes, it's 'over time'

    It looks like you're a bit confused, calling it false dps and asking for a fix. Well yeah sheet dps is actually never true when playing the game.
    Here's how sheet dps works:
    It counts all dps stats : weapon dps+ avg dmg from jewelry, CHC, CHD, APS, primary stat and +elemental dmg%
    and all that is with 100% weapon dmg on a single target.

    In reality, you are using abilities which might use higher weapon dmg, aoe abilities, dots that are not affected by AS, pets and so on. The real dps (tDPS or eDPS) calculations are a bit more complicated, incorporate skills/abilities and are also unprecise, since they mostly assume perfect performance.

    Don't expect to see a DPS number in game which will represent the truth. It's a basis for further calculations and to give an idea of dps difference between items (although it doesnt work for abilities like locust swarm or similar, sadly).


    About the Locust Swarm not critting... are you sure about that? I know for sure that Barbs Rend can crit on cast and most dots like that work the same way. If it crits, each tick will be a crit, if it doesn't, all ticks are non-crits. It's a bit hard to notice, because the numbers aren't actually yellow. They apear as normal dmg (white), you just have to check the values.
  • #6
    Quote from Turtel

    DPS stands for Damage per second, so yes, it's 'over time'

    It looks like you're a bit confused, calling it false dps and asking for a fix. Well yeah sheet dps is actually never true when playing the game.
    Here's how sheet dps works:
    It counts all dps stats : weapon dps+ avg dmg from jewelry, CHC, CHD, APS, primary stat and +elemental dmg%
    and all that is with 100% weapon dmg on a single target.

    In reality, you are using abilities which might use higher weapon dmg, aoe abilities, dots that are not affected by AS, pets and so on. The real dps (tDPS or eDPS) calculations are a bit more complicated, incorporate skills/abilities and are also unprecise, since they mostly assume perfect performance.

    Don't expect to see a DPS number in game which will represent the truth. It's a basis for further calculations and to give an idea of dps difference between items.


    That's why what they chose to go with (sheet DPS) is very misleading, and why they should bring back the per-skill 'damage per hit/activation'.
  • #7
    Quote from maka

    That's why what they chose to go with (sheet DPS) is very misleading, and why they should bring back the per-skill 'damage per hit/activation'.


    Absolutely. More often than not, if i want to know something regarding dps, i have to calculate it and i have to do it outside the game, which is getting old.
  • #8
    Thats why a training dungeon or armory would be awesome... you have wooden monsters that dont do anything. They just have a fixed amount of life. And when you attack them you see the life go down.

    Then there should be switch in the room that turns critical on/off since it is random.
    And there should be a slider in the floor for the dmg, since there is a min and a mix.

    I have a hell of problem seeing differences in upgrades. But If I could attack a woodblock with 1million life and stop the time, and do that for two items I could tell what difference it makes.
  • #9
    Quote from Turtel


    it's obviously due to the fact the sheet paper DPS is calculated by the IAS as well: DPS over time.


    DPS stands for Damage per second, so yes, it's 'over time'

    It looks like you're a bit confused, calling it false dps and asking for a fix. Well yeah sheet dps is actually never true when playing the game.
    Here's how sheet dps works:
    It counts all dps stats : weapon dps+ avg dmg from jewelry, CHC, CHD, APS, primary stat and +elemental dmg%
    and all that is with 100% weapon dmg on a single target.

    In reality, you are using abilities which might use higher weapon dmg, aoe abilities, dots that are not affected by AS, pets and so on. The real dps (tDPS or eDPS) calculations are a bit more complicated, incorporate skills/abilities and are also unprecise, since they mostly assume perfect performance.

    Don't expect to see a DPS number in game which will represent the truth. It's a basis for further calculations and to give an idea of dps difference between items (although it doesnt work for abilities like locust swarm or similar, sadly).


    About the Locust Swarm not critting... are you sure about that? I know for sure that Barbs Rend can crit on cast and most dots like that work the same way. If it crits, each tick will be a crit, if it doesn't, all ticks are non-crits. It's a bit hard to notice, because the numbers aren't actually yellow. They apear as normal dmg (white), you just have to check the values.

    Oh, I was very aware of the sheet DPS-thing, I was just looking for a bit of confirmation. A lot of people just really focus on sheet DPS. I have a friend that runs a 200k DPS WD and his Locust kills slower than mine. It's because all of his added IAS, CC and CD whereas I run with a Locust build with added Locust damage, Demon Damage, Elite damage, which is all 'hidden'. I realize the character screen is always a LCS, Lying Character Screen, (how we used to call it in D2) it just creates more confusion.

    If I remember correctly, Diablo II did this a little better. Damage was based on which skill you were using and your setup. You could see an estimate of how much damage my Bone Spirit did and how much damage my Bone Spear did. Of course, it still wasn't perfect, but it was closer than what we have here, I feel.

    Regarding the Locust Swarm crit-thing:
    I just found out that it does crit, even though I knew I wasn't looking for yellow numbers. I was confusing the smaller numbers and larger numbers for minimum and maximum damage. Don't know why.

    Also: the Scoundrel's Hysteria doesn't proc on DoT spells. Sorry for the confusion!
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