Any WD's still running Splinters?

  • #61
    Splinters is more of a poor man's choice. I you have gear with enough resists/armor/life and mana then bears/bats are many times better than splinter in overall killing speed.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #62
    Quote from Findulidas

    Quote from superfula

    Funny, as I don't see how you can run a WD WITH Darts. Bears, Dire Bats, Acid Rain are all better yet some prefer to use a low damage, single target spell.


    Its very simple when you think about it. While splinters do less damage, its not very much less single target. It also frees one passive and opens up the use of the ccs whenever you want which is nice. You can very easily chain use the ccs with splinters with vq builds you cannot since they are all used the moment you start battle and not when you best need them.


    You're still locked into PTV, to do less damage than single target damage, so you actually use the same amount of passives - just get less out of it with darts, than an AOE line nuke, dire bats. Also, with bats, you can run 5 CDs, allowing you to always keep one CD up for use.

    You can still chain CCs with VQ bats - VQ is only there to give you sustained DPS against bosses / elites while your CCs are up. I get ten bats, before i OOM, that deal: 220 - 1.2(160) = 28% more damage with each hit. As AoE. 280% total more damage, before going oom - and thats if I dont bother using the CCs that I normally would, or honored guest, which i also normally would. Thats also if I had 6+ seconds to stand there and DPS without moving, or casting CCs. and again... the damage is AOE.

    There's never a single reason to use splinters over bats, period. Well, maybe if you're using bad medicine, but that's a different story, since at that point you arent trying to procure quick farming, but rather, progressive survivability.

    If you changed VQ builds, to VQbears, you'd be far more accurate. However, in my opinion bears is garbage too, outside of mick 6 second boss kills.

    TLDR: Bats is still superior to darts.
  • #63
    You do get an extra passive with PD because you don't have to get VQ. But it just means you end up with JF basically. Not like it makes a huge difference.

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Splinters is more of a poor man's choice. I you have gear with enough resists/armor/life and mana then bears/bats are many times better than splinter in overall killing speed.


    This, not liking VQ (wanting to play a lazier style), and perhaps having already stacked a ton of IAS pre-nerf are the only reasons you would go with PD at this point.

    The problem with WDs is that you can't really use anything besides the Primarys without VQ.

    Also... I don't know about people saying that Acid Rain is good, seems like way too much mana for 175% damage over 3 sec.
  • #64
    Will people stop acting like their word is a fact?

    You don't like a splinter build? That's fine. That doesn't mean splinter builds are horrible or that VQ builds are superior.

    I don't like vision quest builds because you can't cast your defensive spells WHEN YOU NEED THEM. Sure, you can save spirit walk for when you need it if you use 5 cooldown skills but you act like spirit walk is the only cooldown I care about. That is far from the case.

    Why I dislike VQ builds:
    * Having Hex on cooldown instead of when you need it is huge. Hex will CC immediately after it's cast so it's a big advantage to have it to use when something gets past the slows/CC and is about to kill you.
    * After running around with Jungle Fort in my dart build... I can't stand not having it in Act 3. It makes certain affix combos much more bareable.
    * I can't stand not having Zombie Wall. Certain rare packs destroy me without it. Those armored guys that bust through doorways in Act 3 are impossible to kite without zombie wall and hex doesn't even work on them.
    * If you use quick cooldowns to proc VQ, you aren't casting damage spells as often and you're wasting mana on spells that aren't even helpful (spamming Soul Harvest for example)
    * You can stack better stats on your head/weapon/offhand due to not needing + mana gear. Not only is it difficult and expensive to find good gear with mana stats on it but it takes up an affix spot.

    I'm not sure how you could argue that VQ is just as safe as dart builds. It's simply not true. If that fact doesn't bother you, that's fine... it's a gameplay choice.

    BTW... once you understand how to properly use the darts build, AoE is a very small problem with the build. It is 0 problem with white mobs and with rares it's only a problem with illusionist. Between Grasp and Zombie Wall, it's enough AoE for most occasions.

    TLDR: I prefer being more defensive than having more damage and AoE. I like not dying and being able to kill any type of rare pack.
  • #65
    Hex's CD is equal to it's lifetime, so it's 100% uptime. And I use ZW with my Dire Bats WD, so I don't know where you're going with some of your points. I just don't know how you have fun when the skill that you deal damage with 95% of the time is a skill/rune you get at level 6.
  • #66
    Quote from maka

    Hex's CD is equal to it's lifetime, so it's 100% uptime. And I use ZW with my Dire Bats WD, so I don't know where you're going with some of your points. I just don't know how you have fun when the skill that you deal damage with 95% of the time is a skill/rune you get at level 6.


    You are incorrect sir. Hex expires before the cooldown by 2 seconds I believe. Also, as I stated in my post, it casts the CC immediately when you cast the spell which was my point.
  • #67
    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Splinters is more of a poor man's choice. I you have gear with enough resists/armor/life and mana then bears/bats are many times better than splinter in overall killing speed.


    Thats a pretty dumb argument. With enough mana resi/armor/health then anything works, the problem always is getting better gear. While bears kill stuff faster you really die much easier using that build, which is why I prefer splinters. Its really up to how you like to play. If you are facerolling act4 inferno dps then sure bears might be the best at all times, I seriously doubt the majority of players running bears does that though.
  • #68
    You are incorrect sir. Hex expires before the cooldown by 2 seconds I believe. Also, as I stated in my post, it casts the CC immediately when you cast the spell which was my point.


    3, but you can add a passive it so it has a 100% uptime. Hex is still, generally, worthless. Unless its AI is fixed to Hex the strongest hex-able target; I can't see why one sticks it on the bar.
  • #69
    Quote from Findulidas

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Splinters is more of a poor man's choice. I you have gear with enough resists/armor/life and mana then bears/bats are many times better than splinter in overall killing speed.


    Thats a pretty dumb argument. With enough mana resi/armor/health then anything works, the problem always is getting better gear. While bears kill stuff faster you really die much easier using that build, which is why I prefer splinters. Its really up to how you like to play. If you are facerolling act4 inferno dps then sure bears might be the best at all times, I seriously doubt the majority of players running bears does that though.


    How is that dumb arugment? With splinter i imagine you need to kite a lot, right? You ain't gonna kill monsters in few darts, that means you kite and lose time. Now with bears, you cast spirit walk run into big pack, cast soul harvest and start spamming bears. Everything is dead after 3 seconds, so nothing can kill you, right? :) Ofc with elites it's not that fast but still much faster than using darts.

    Imo VQ builds which heavily uses bears or bats are much faster in killing speed compared to low mana cost spell builds.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #70
    Quote from lorien1973


    3, but you can add a passive it so it has a 100% uptime. Hex is still, generally, worthless. Unless its AI is fixed to Hex the strongest hex-able target; I can't see why one sticks it on the bar.


    The few times it actually does hex an elite people notice and then start swearing by it, but I tend to notice the many times it hexes a useless target. It's good and it's bad, just depends on if you like it more than some of the other CD's and at this point I find other CD's more useful.


    Quote from Kblavkalash


    How is that dumb arugment? With splinter i imagine you need to kite a lot, right? You ain't gonna kill monsters in few darts, that means you kite and lose time. Now with bears, you cast spirit walk run into big pack, cast soul harvest and start spamming bears. Everything is dead after 3 seconds, so nothing can kill you, right? :) Ofc with elites it's not that fast but still much faster than using darts.

    Imo VQ builds which heavily uses bears or bats are much faster in killing speed compared to low mana cost spell builds.


    Except when you die then you lose time and money. I find bears destroys most things, but you need the gear, if you don't you die a lot more. You can add a lot more survivability to bears but rolling short CD's for VQ is too awkward and somewhat inefficient of mana use for my liking.
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #71
    Quote from lorien1973

    You are incorrect sir. Hex expires before the cooldown by 2 seconds I believe. Also, as I stated in my post, it casts the CC immediately when you cast the spell which was my point.


    3, but you can add a passive it so it has a 100% uptime. Hex is still, generally, worthless. Unless its AI is fixed to Hex the strongest hex-able target; I can't see why one sticks it on the bar.


    Well hex heals you and it can hex elite monsters which is most important thing. I personally use hex not only because it's quite nice, but because i can't see what i can use instead.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #72
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#aSZdQT!YWT!acaYbc

    drop grasp, locust swarm, and then dart til dead. I'm around 35k health and 35k dps currently with 1.99 attack speed. The gargantuan is sadly useless past act 1, and usually gets replaced with wall of zombies for added CC. Probably not an OP build by any stretch of the imagination, but I have a lot of fun with it. My zunimassa helm has +locust swarm dmg, and my zunimassa OH has +darts dmg. With a few health globes and some soul harvest stacks I'm in the 50-60k dps range, and with BBV down I'm in the 70-90k range. Add a frenzy shrine into the mix and I'm easily over 100k dps. The nice thing about my build is the grasp, swarm, and darts are all doing damage *at the same time*. Grasp + swarm is ticking on everyone for 10-15k a second, darts are doing 10-30k each, depending on crits, and I'm shooting 6 darts a second at 60% weapon damage each. I mainly still use darts because it's free to cast (it's like a signature spell on a wizard, I'm actually gaining mana while using it), the range on the darts is HUGE(I can out-range mortar mobs easily), and the missile speed is very fast. Honestly, I hadn't planned on using darts in inferno, but I just don't have much fun with other builds. I really dislike bears too. Oh, and my passives. I've got pierce the veil since mana isn't an issue for this build (just need about 40 mana per second, can MAYBE squeeze by with 35, but 40+ is preferred), gruesome feast for added health, mana, and int (mobs drop globes before they die, just need to be pro-active about picking them up, which isn't hard when they add like 2k dps each), and grave injustice for multiple grasps (yes you can have more than 1 grasp down), quicker soul harvests for bigger stacks, and more BBV which my friends LOVE. I'm dropping BBV about once a minute these days, and the wizards and barbs and DH's that I play with love me so much for it. Also grave injustice gives me about 350 health and 85 mana for each enemy who dies within like 22 yards of me.

    Also, my zuni helm has over 3% chance to fear, and my necklace has over 3% chance to blind, which combined with the 1.99 attack speed makes for a LOT of CC procs from not just darts but also grasp and swarm.
  • #73
    Quote from Moetsukiru

    I have great gear



    I used a similar build leveling my WD and it was fun... till hell. Like all other things unless you have gear locusts and many other spells are useless. I'm sitting at 25K and it does shit in Act 1. I obviously didn't have the radius passives because again that requires gear.
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #74
    Moetsukiru, do the CC on items like chance to stun or blind works on elite enemies just as good?
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #75
    Quote from maka

    Hex's CD is equal to it's lifetime, so it's 100% uptime. And I use ZW with my Dire Bats WD, so I don't know where you're going with some of your points. I just don't know how you have fun when the skill that you deal damage with 95% of the time is a skill/rune you get at level 6.


    Are you seriously trying to insinuate that the only skills that can be "fun" to use are ones that you obtain closer to 60?

    Grasp of the Dead is my single favorite spell in the game. I absolutely love it. No class has presented me with anything that I find nearly as "fun" to use. I couldn't care less if I got it at level 1, 10, or 60.
    p427 :: 89.1k EK :: 2.47m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #76
    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Quote from Findulidas

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Splinters is more of a poor man's choice. I you have gear with enough resists/armor/life and mana then bears/bats are many times better than splinter in overall killing speed.


    Thats a pretty dumb argument. With enough mana resi/armor/health then anything works, the problem always is getting better gear. While bears kill stuff faster you really die much easier using that build, which is why I prefer splinters. Its really up to how you like to play. If you are facerolling act4 inferno dps then sure bears might be the best at all times, I seriously doubt the majority of players running bears does that though.


    How is that dumb arugment? With splinter i imagine you need to kite a lot, right? You ain't gonna kill monsters in few darts, that means you kite and lose time. Now with bears, you cast spirit walk run into big pack, cast soul harvest and start spamming bears. Everything is dead after 3 seconds, so nothing can kill you, right? :) Ofc with elites it's not that fast but still much faster than using darts.

    Imo VQ builds which heavily uses bears or bats are much faster in killing speed compared to low mana cost spell builds.


    The fight clearly isnt over by a bear caster just getting in, thats completely unrealistic. You can just as well die as soon as you get in melee range and dying in 3 seconds is easy in act3-4. Somehow you seem to be missing the very important deaths in your calculation, this is ever more important if you are using a skill like bears which basically is in melee which very obviously increases the risk of dying. Every time you die you lose both time and money which means unless you are running overgeared then bears doesnt seem to be better than splinters. If you are then why arent you going on the act over? Because you die before you can kill stuff using bears since you are in melee range, you dont when using splinters. Thats how I see it.
  • #77
    Well hex heals you and it can hex elite monsters which is most important thing. I personally use hex not only because it's quite nice, but because i can't see what i can use instead.

    I enjoyed hex while I used it; but gave up on it after it kept hexing the wrong thing. It does serve 2 useful purposes:

    1) it can act as a permanent wall in front of you. Arrow do not shoot thru it. Your BBV works the way it. It stops incoming missiles. Try it!
    2) It tanks. Monsters will try to attack it, without much success, but it doesn't stop them from trying. Kinda funny.

    My build uses:

    darts/splinters
    grasp of dead/unrelenting
    wall of zombies/width
    spirit walk/healing
    fetish army/3 extra
    BBV/30% damage

    I think this works great, personally. It destroys elite packs and bosses melt under the FA/BBV for 20 seconds. I thought it was a little cheesy at first; but hey, it works. In Act 1 and most of Act2, I don't bother with FA/BBV unless I'm lazy or on the tedious elite packs (shielding/extra health/waller/invuln minions). And with the 2 cc's kiting is simple. Darts as the primary damage dealer, of course.

    Personally, I'd like to experiment with more builds, but I'm really lazy to recreate them each time. Wish we had a way to save builds, somehow.

    Grasp of the Dead is my single favorite spell in the game. I absolutely love it. No class has presented me with anything that I find nearly as "fun" to use. I couldn't care less if I got it at level 1, 10, or 60.

    Totally. GoD/relentless is bad ass. 80% slowdown? And castable every time the first one goes away. Hell yeah! 160% weapon damage too? Woot!
  • #78
    Also, my zuni helm has over 3% chance to fear, and my necklace has over 3% chance to blind, which combined with the 1.99 attack speed makes for a LOT of CC procs from not just darts but also grasp and swarm.


    Does the fear chance proc on DoT hits, or only the initial jump?
  • #79
    Quote from lorien1973

    You are incorrect sir. Hex expires before the cooldown by 2 seconds I believe. Also, as I stated in my post, it casts the CC immediately when you cast the spell which was my point.


    3, but you can add a passive it so it has a 100% uptime. Hex is still, generally, worthless. Unless its AI is fixed to Hex the strongest hex-able target; I can't see why one sticks it on the bar.


    Well... the key is to cast it when something is closing in to you. It will immediately be hexed and it will allow you to escape without getting hit and give you time to get in a better position or to get off a few free shots.

    The heal is also vitally important because it makes reflects damage less annoying. I want a build that can handle all affix packs fairly easily. So far, Darts is the best answer.
  • #80
    Eitherway... I picked up some new upgrades over lunch and now I'm up to 56k dps and I have less IAS gear now.

    I'll give bats another shot now that I kill things so quickly and have a bit less attack speed now. I have 0 regen on my gear though so I have a feeling it will be just as rocky as last time I tried.

    Darts is so easy now though. Elites die in 4-5 shots it seems. I can typically kill a single elite before it escapes from wall of zombies now.
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