My experience is as such. There are three primary builds you need to figure out for yourself, Low MP paragon/MF grinding is going to be different then high MP Paragon/mf/key grinding, and lastly an Uber build. Even though there is a lot of overlap I do have 3 different builds for each scenario and I have half a dozen items used to compliment each build.
From what I gathered you are having mana issues while farming higher end MP levels so I will be talking specifically about that. Acid rain starts sucking around mp3 or 4 plus. There is only one logical goto for mobs with such high health, that is bears. bears will run your mana pool dry even with high regen and a large mana pool. There are only 4 thing I have found that efficiently help with mana regen beyond gear.
1:Spirit walk with mana regen rune... its a nice little bump and becomes really efficent with high PuR when coupled with number 3. The reason for this is in large packs once demons start dieing the CD on spirit walk becomes reset really quickly allowing you to regen your mana every couple of seconds
2:Gruesome feast: Mana regen and dps boost from globes, benefits greatly with large PuR
3:grave injustice: CD reduction and % mana boost from any enemy death within your PuR
4: BBVD with mana regen: I have close to 100 mana regen, when I use BBVD I can spam bears indefinitely while standing in BBVD.
All these things combined give a lot of mana regen to a typical bears build. SO my final prognosis is this, while your gear is decent you dont have the PuR to properly use your passives and are thus oom'ing like mad.
Hope I helped
You did, sure sound like that there should be a different build for everything. I would split this into 3 categories
1)Low MP 0-3. No need for mana regen there, everything dies in 1-2 hits. Depending on the gear, this is the way it works with me. I'm guessing that someone with much higher DMG output than me can put here more MPs
2)4-7 Need for more mana regen, Where it takes some time to kill elites, so you would actually need to use some of the Mana gain spells, probably a few of them
3) 8-10 + ubers, where there actually is no chance in having full mana, unless you are 1H + OH and have widowmaker.
The numbers in these do change depending from DMG. Cause if you can kill elites in 5 sec in any MP you will not need much mana regen. Since the pool you have is going to be enough.
I did some rounds of testing: Remove the pierce, use the Blood Ritual. 4 zunimassa + spirit walk + grave injustice. All in favor of mana regen. I feel the difference for sure.
Bottom line is: unlike some classes we have to put into much more into resource management.
Well, one reason might be you are using skorn.
I'm at nearly 2 attacks per second with high end manajuma knife, and bears feel really smooth and responsive.
I find myself in a situation where dogs from circle of life simply get stuck vs some remaining trash enemies, they don't all hit elite (or i have to wait before they "hug" elitepack", and be lucky it doesn't spread before that happens). It is just not enough very often for me. With circle of life, you have only 1 cast vs elite. It is actually worse than if you didn't use circle of life, use dogs as active skill. It still resets cooldown for each elite, and you can manually summon it on top of elite, and detonate immediately. Costs 2 active skills so not worth it of course.
While fast bears rape elitepack instantly, giving you even an option to increase mp as high as 3-4, since it makes no difference in run speed.
Also don't underestimate spirit vessel. 2s less cooldown on both of your speed buffs and soul harvest which is animationless aoe 230% if used with this rune. It really adds up through all the run.
I know it is kind of sad that very first generic version of this build (gruesome feast, grave injustice, spirit vessel), seems to still be one of the best if not the best, but this combo is really powerful. If you drop spirit vessel, you really waste some time, waiting for your cooldowns. Not every pack always resets spirit walk, you always can cast it little bit later without that passive. It has pretty significant impact on run speed. Also with spirit vessel you will never die to reflect, if it is causing you problem.
But again, it depends on gear, running with slow skorn, is entirely different base for build, some things work better with this, some worse.
Sure thing. Weapon is everything. I've been telling that from the start, many great ideas were here good only for 1h +OH combo.
I feel that my skorn has quite nice LS, and it also hits like a truck. Also I feel that I have waisted some stats on my gear, like AS from lacuni and future items I plan to take, that have AS as default. I feel like there are more ways to improve the DPS when wearing the 1H+OH combo.
AS just feels like a paper DMG to me, and it does not contribute much to my DMG output. Only to faster cast. It is too expensive to get for the benefits I see.
But your definition of high end? At paragon 100, the best place to farm legendaries is still the low monster power... The high monster power is only good for 3 things. #1. Key farming. #2. Ubber boss farming. #3. Fun.
Blizzard has sadly designed the monster power system so, that if you want to play on the higher monster powers, unless its for keys and ubber boss drops. Your punished. Your punished in the way, that mean your Farming efficiency drops more and more for each moster power level above 3. Lets say you have theoreticly the best gear in game. Best in slot on every item. Even then, your most efficient monster power for gear farming is 1-3 depending on your class. Everything above is setting you back in efficiency. So unless your doing it for fun, keys or ubber boss drops. Monster power above 3 comes with the cost of decreased farming (XP and Loot). Thats just how it is.
This topic is ment for highend speccs not low level farming speccs imo There is already enough out there for that.
Exactly! I've been trying to explain that all time
Anyhow: this is what worked for me:
I dropped Pierce, gotten myself a Blood ritual.
Taken Mass confusion with paranoia, jinx, BBW with mana regen and spirit walk with mana regen. I've been doing the ubers on MP10 with my friends and now I have all the mana I need. I run out of it at some point, but have it most of the time.
Bears and Rain of toads for DMG.
The thing with efficiency, I'm not quite sure if going high mp is such bad thing. For exp for sure.
But if you take into account bonus item from trash monsters, that chance for it is increased with mp. How do people know it is not worth to run for example mp7 with 300k unbuffed dps for drops? It is easy to measure for exp, and it isn't worth it, but for legendaries, I'm not quite so sure.
Or variant where you do even high mp, mp10 even but skip elites (they don't get bonus item at all, only extra mf from mp). It is really not that easy to tell what is most efficient. Also note that higher mf increases chance for higher quality rares (more affixes).
Its been tested in and out. The bonuses in mf and bonuses of bonus items, is not high enough to make up for the increased hp. Run 5 hours of mp3 and another 5 hours on lets say mp8. You would not only have gained more xp, on the mp3 run, you would also have gained alot more loot. And because you get so much more loot, you also get more of the good items, aswell as more legendaries. That sadly how blizzard the monster power system. Farming the the higher monster power for increased fun, sadly comes for a prize, and thats decreased farming efficiency. Its understandeble that you want the higher monster levels to be good, but thats just denial of the facts. We can only hope that blizzard balance it better out, in a future patch.
You still get better rares running at low mp because you get so much more of em. The bonuses for higher mp isnt great enough to compensate for the hp increase.
Well, my point is, this is not that easy to tell. Haven't seen any studies, good tests with loads of data proving what you say.
There are for sure certain dps breakpoints that allow higher mp. Check out 740k dps archon wizard and how fast can he do mp10. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't need to lower it to mp3 to be most efficient. It is generalization to say for example mp3 is max for best possible gear to be efficient. It isn't.
People forget about trash. Whether I'm on MP 1 or 6, it dies in a few casts, but it drops a lot more loot and gives a lot more exp on MP 6. And most elite packs aren't too bad, although reflect and extra health are a bitch, and they seem to become more common as MP level goes up. Also, the faster you kill trash, the more you are bottlenecked by your runspeed, which can't go past 25%.
With that being said, you're absolutely right, this is my supposition, and not supported by any hard data. I plan to take some data this coming week in regards to act and MP as they relate to loot and exp, and post my results to the general forum.
If you can kill monsters in higher MP in exactly the same time frame than obviously higher MP is the way to go. But only provided that you maintain around the same MF.
For people that are not paragon 100 and can't do MP6 as fast as MP3, it is better to do the MP2 for example if they take out some of the offensive items and gt MF ones, just to maintain the same kill speed and get higher MF.
Although I must say I got pretty tired of the whole efficient farming route. My conclusion at the end of all that was: It is far more efficient to play the way I enjoy it than to play efficiently for 10 minutes and than quit as I'm bored of doing the same thing all over again. I'm sure some of you feel the same way.
Thanks to not using pierce, and having the full zunimassa set... I don't really run into any significant mana issues. I basically unload bears until I'm out of mana (which takes quite a while) then switch to darts, where I have a couple boosts that make them a pretty effective alternative. With the time it takes to go grab a globe or something my mana will be fully regen'd.
My conclusion at the end of all that was: It is far more efficient to play the way I enjoy it than to play efficiently for 10 minutes and than quit as I'm bored of doing the same thing all over again. I'm sure some of you feel the same way.
QFT.
Most of the fun I have with this game are going up against challenging affixes. They are not a challenge at all on low MPs...
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1)Low MP 0-3. No need for mana regen there, everything dies in 1-2 hits. Depending on the gear, this is the way it works with me. I'm guessing that someone with much higher DMG output than me can put here more MPs
2)4-7 Need for more mana regen, Where it takes some time to kill elites, so you would actually need to use some of the Mana gain spells, probably a few of them
3) 8-10 + ubers, where there actually is no chance in having full mana, unless you are 1H + OH and have widowmaker.
The numbers in these do change depending from DMG. Cause if you can kill elites in 5 sec in any MP you will not need much mana regen. Since the pool you have is going to be enough.
I did some rounds of testing: Remove the pierce, use the Blood Ritual. 4 zunimassa + spirit walk + grave injustice. All in favor of mana regen. I feel the difference for sure.
Bottom line is: unlike some classes we have to put into much more into resource management.
I feel that my skorn has quite nice LS, and it also hits like a truck. Also I feel that I have waisted some stats on my gear, like AS from lacuni and future items I plan to take, that have AS as default. I feel like there are more ways to improve the DPS when wearing the 1H+OH combo.
AS just feels like a paper DMG to me, and it does not contribute much to my DMG output. Only to faster cast. It is too expensive to get for the benefits I see.
Blizzard has sadly designed the monster power system so, that if you want to play on the higher monster powers, unless its for keys and ubber boss drops. Your punished. Your punished in the way, that mean your Farming efficiency drops more and more for each moster power level above 3. Lets say you have theoreticly the best gear in game. Best in slot on every item. Even then, your most efficient monster power for gear farming is 1-3 depending on your class. Everything above is setting you back in efficiency. So unless your doing it for fun, keys or ubber boss drops. Monster power above 3 comes with the cost of decreased farming (XP and Loot). Thats just how it is.
Currently played toon: https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/97362116
Anyhow: this is what worked for me:
I dropped Pierce, gotten myself a Blood ritual.
Taken Mass confusion with paranoia, jinx, BBW with mana regen and spirit walk with mana regen. I've been doing the ubers on MP10 with my friends and now I have all the mana I need. I run out of it at some point, but have it most of the time.
Bears and Rain of toads for DMG.
Thanks to all for help and ideas!
Its been tested in and out. The bonuses in mf and bonuses of bonus items, is not high enough to make up for the increased hp. Run 5 hours of mp3 and another 5 hours on lets say mp8. You would not only have gained more xp, on the mp3 run, you would also have gained alot more loot. And because you get so much more loot, you also get more of the good items, aswell as more legendaries. That sadly how blizzard the monster power system. Farming the the higher monster power for increased fun, sadly comes for a prize, and thats decreased farming efficiency. Its understandeble that you want the higher monster levels to be good, but thats just denial of the facts. We can only hope that blizzard balance it better out, in a future patch.
Currently played toon: https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/97362116
Currently played toon: https://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/97362116
People forget about trash. Whether I'm on MP 1 or 6, it dies in a few casts, but it drops a lot more loot and gives a lot more exp on MP 6. And most elite packs aren't too bad, although reflect and extra health are a bitch, and they seem to become more common as MP level goes up. Also, the faster you kill trash, the more you are bottlenecked by your runspeed, which can't go past 25%.
With that being said, you're absolutely right, this is my supposition, and not supported by any hard data. I plan to take some data this coming week in regards to act and MP as they relate to loot and exp, and post my results to the general forum.
For people that are not paragon 100 and can't do MP6 as fast as MP3, it is better to do the MP2 for example if they take out some of the offensive items and gt MF ones, just to maintain the same kill speed and get higher MF.
Although I must say I got pretty tired of the whole efficient farming route. My conclusion at the end of all that was: It is far more efficient to play the way I enjoy it than to play efficiently for 10 minutes and than quit as I'm bored of doing the same thing all over again. I'm sure some of you feel the same way.
us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/tandy-1228/hero/3858373
Thanks to not using pierce, and having the full zunimassa set... I don't really run into any significant mana issues. I basically unload bears until I'm out of mana (which takes quite a while) then switch to darts, where I have a couple boosts that make them a pretty effective alternative. With the time it takes to go grab a globe or something my mana will be fully regen'd.
QFT.
Most of the fun I have with this game are going up against challenging affixes. They are not a challenge at all on low MPs...