high end wd vs reflect damage

  • #1
    Since I'm pushing my gear for even higher dps, to handle higher monster power, reflect still greatly limits my option.
    I wonder if there is anyone with really good items, that found a way to handle it.
    I know most common ways to do it, but I would like to not gimp myself in the process.

    Here is what I want to achieve:

    1. Main skill zombie bears - best dps, outdamages any other skill several times at least, no contest. Allows for fast farming even at very high monster power, at given dps.
    2. Don't want to rely on life on hit, since it limits me to using acid cloud or rain of toads (terrible damage). And at certain point of dps, ticks from acid cloud dot, don't trigger nearly enough life to outweight massive bear crits. Skill is also pretty weak at high mp, used pretty much exclusively for life on hit proc. Even with 400k dps you need spam acid rain forever to kill group of trash enemies at let's say monster power 9. While bears wipe whole screen in few seconds.
    3. Don't want gimp my dps vs elites, by switching to some weak weapon, or weak skill and wearing them down slowly.
    4. Don't want to use life steal skorn since it ruins mana regeneration, and therefore greatly limits amount of bears we can spam - hurts dps.

    So basically 1h bear build that doesn't want to rely on weak skill/gear swap/loh skills to survive reflect.

    There is a formula for reflect:

    LS / 5 >= 0.1 * (1 - Armor/(50*63+Armor)) * (1 - PhysRes/(5*63+PhysRes))

    It considers 10% damage as reflect, life steal penalty 20%. This is how much physical resist and armor is needed to make us stop losing health to reflect at given amount of life steal.

    As an example, if we pick jungle fortitude, + bad medicine, add 5k armor and 1k physical resist, we are at point where 3.0% life steal mitigates all reflected damage..
    Now if you don't want all defensive passives, then good luck getting enough stats..
    Some realistic numbers, with no DR from passives, to make 3% life steal weapon enough to handle reflect, you need 8k armor and 1200 physical resist. With decent defensive gear, and horrify 100% armor rune, possible.

    I wonder if I missed anything, maybe there is some other way to make it work, without stacking this much defense, or being limited to so many defensive skills. Because you can easily tank elites and monsters at high mp levels with certain amount of ehp and mitigation, but at the same time you can own yourself attacking reflect pack. Seems really imbalanced, how hard it is to handle by decently geared wd.
    Main issue is, there there is no skill you can "chain cast" like dh can use gloom. Armor bonus is 8s with cooldown, and you need decent base stats to make it work, while 15% life steal and 35% dr from gloom handles reflect quite easily without that much of defensive stats.

    Oh and the reason why I'm against loh skills, they really make fight last so much longer. It just feels wrong if you rape mp8 with bears, mow through maps, facetank fast phasebeast with firechains, game feels easy, your defenses feel overstacked, untill.. you hit reflect pack and instakill youself..
    And then if you try loh approach, killing pack takes 10-20x longer than killing any other pack without reflect. It is literally that much of a difference, which makes this solution so bad, at high levels of gear. Loh heals you up relatively slowly, while 2.5m bear crits drop your health super quickly, which makes these fights take so long.
  • #2
    I don't think anyone would disagree with you that RD packs at higher MP levels are a joke. but remember that old affix where a champion pack would have perma shielded minions until you killed the champion? That too was a retarded affix and wisely they removed it. Instead of trying to figure a way to boost your physical resis to 1200 and your armor to 8000 I would say just be patient because WD's arnt the only class complaining about the ridiculous amount of dmg that RD packs inflict at higher MP levels.

    The squeeky wheel gets the grease I bet its hot fixed soon or at the very latest next patch.
  • #3
    When it comes to other classes, only archon wizard is hurt by reflect at similar level as wd imo. It has way to get more life steal than wd though. But cm build can just mitigate it through life on hit, and cm build is even more powerful then archon in many cases. Wd build that deals with reflect is rain of toads/acid rain which compared to cm wizard is just horribly weak.
    Dh has gloom, while not ideal it is miles ahead wd since it has no damn cooldown. Barb and monk be having innate 30% dr, good loh coefficient (barb just tons of life steal), reflect is not much of a problem on these classes.

    And yeah, I wouldn't mind every second elitepack had shielding, if none had reflect in exchange, much more annoying affix.
  • #4
    Like I said in the other RD thread, I've been using Spirit Barrage with the health return rune. It might not pass the test of "omg bear dps" though. It does take a lot longer to kill with it since it's a single target spell. I don't die though and I can still use bears while spirit walk is up.

    Other possible ideas... maybe mass confusion? I haven't really tested it in 1.0.5 but in theory it should last longer and I'm guessing the damage the monsters do to each other won't reflect back on you?
  • #5
    Monster deal not enough damage vs mp hp ramp to kill each other if charmed. Charm works ok at mp0 though or especially in 1.00 version of the game (low hp, insane damage higher than current mp10).

    As for extra 3% life steal spirit barrage.. you know even with 6% life steal (1h ll + skill), you can still hurt yourself if you have 300k dps, You need 4k armor and 800 physical resist to not lose hp with 6 life steal.
    And tbh spirit barrage being single target, i would probably stick to rain of toads, while weak at least they can hit entire elitepack and than thanks to aoe they deal more damage than spirit barrage.
    Both solutions are terrible when it comes to killing speed unfortunately. ;/
  • #6
    Your analysis seems thorough and it boils down to: given the condition that you want a way that works on huge bears crits, the only possible solution would be something that scales with the damage. The only healing mechanism that does that is life leech and your calculation shows that 3% just isn't enough.

    I guess the only thing you can do just now is hope for a damage reflection nerf, a buff of the life leech affix or the introduction of life leech on some other item except weapons and barb belts.

    In the meantime, there is that old Invulnerable Minions standby: 3 sec spirit walk, run away and loose aggro. Or a spare 6% life leech Skorn as a backup weapon to use only for these packs. The sheer decadence of that solution would give it a certain grandeur.
  • #7
    I'm at around 100k unbuffed dps. I was having massive issues with reflect on MP5 without any LoH / leech. I hate (hate hate hate) swapping so keeping a 2-hander bagged wasn't really an option for me. I got about 1k LoH via 2 items and it didn't help much, so I sold them and got a CK with leech, which I've had much better results with (only 2.2%). I also changed my primary to acid cloud. I still think reflect needs adjustment, but at least now I can get by.
  • #8
    i think the reflect damage from your pets should be fixed also
  • #9
    My wd friend got pretty nice dps and is fine vs reflect aslong its not health link or horde on mp 7 or higher.

    Link: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/hasansabbah-2914/hero/1582160

    My Dh : http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/IcyInsanity-2604/hero/197375
  • #10
    I'd like to see him attacking elitepack with baras + slam dance, with his stats and dps..
  • #11
    Bottom line with reflect damage and the WD on high mp levels is this:

    1- Build your character around beating this one affix:
    • By high resistance to reflect with high armor, high res all and high vitality
    • By high life steal, life on hit and life regen
    • Mix of the above
    2- Swap weapon to lower damage and get life steal and life on hit when fighting reflect damage packs
    3- Take down reflect damage packs slowly

    Point 1: fuck that I am not building a character's equip and skills to beat 1 affix in the game
    Point 2: Sucks
    Point 3: Sucks a lot more then point 2

    I tried all of the above and fuck it if I'm going to gear my character with 5k+ armor and 1k+ res all to beat 1 affix when I don't need those high stats. Also fuck it if it's going to take me 3 minutes to kill 1 reflect pack while waiting for spirit walk to cool down so I can do some damage without dying. And definetly fuck all the overpriced life on hit and life steal gear out there. But ok if someone wants to do this it's their choice, it's their gold they use to achieve this. Worst thing is to even have to chose your skills because of this one affix (jugnle fortitude, bad medicine, life lin dogs, etc etc).

    Everything about it sucks...the thing that doesn't suck as much as the rest is swapping your weapon when you get lucky enough to find a reflect pack, it might take you twice more time to kill it and god forbid the gear swap but it is still 10000X better then the other options.
  • #12
    My "strategy" has been to run a MP lvl that is low enough to make them start dropping health globes while spirit walk is still active (i have +13k extra Health from Health Globes).
    So usually i pop Mass Confusion Paranoia start spamming bears until im low on health, then use Spirit Walk, once it expires i move and pick up health globes -> finish them off. Often there are white mobs around or you get a lucky illusionist affix that allows you to use Spirit Walk more often.
    As i see it, a Life Leach one hand weapons will expand this window and enable us in that way to farm higher mp lvls (i'm not using one since a decent one hand with LL is quiet expensive).

    For me this works fine since in my opinion the Bears build is not really meant to farm "high" mp lvls. It's synergies just work so much better if everything dies fast.
  • #13
    Bears are only skill that allow for fast high mp farming actually.
    If you get enough dps you can run mp1 or mp2 with just acid cloud, kill elites in 3 casts, trash in 1, no even need to use bears.

    I think currently best way to handle reflect and not slow down too much is to hit 4k base armor (8k with horrify) and 1200 physical resist (high int, slots with all res + physical res), and have weapon with 3.00% life steal. Then we stop taking damage from reflect while under horrify buff, and it doesn't matter that our dps is.
    It could be pushed to lower values of physical resist if combined with defensive passives, but that has negative impact on our dps.
  • #14
    Gear: dont have 10 posts cant link T_T WakaDoDo#2746
    MP5+: build: dont have 10 posts cant link T_T Armory shows low mp speedfarm build.
    I've very much hit the wall of RD in higher MPs. Sitting at only 2.2LS I become useless after spirit vessel pops and im sub 50% HP.

    I am eventually gonna buy some blackthorns pants, which has 350-450LoH something. With the pants and one additional item(probably ring for me, a unity maybe) with LoH I could reach maybe 800-1.2k LoH without seriously crippling my gear.
    In MP5+ Im running bear/spiders but could change spiders for Rain of Toads. Now it wouldn't beat RD, but it would help mitigate it. I just dont know to what Extent.
    LoH will be an extra and not a main health gain. I'll get low health, but have a way to regain it faster.

    How much LoH is necessary is the question though. And kiting with Rain of Toads for health? idk

    Really nice post Zealot! The information about armor and resistance is really useful.
  • #15
    Spirit walk and BOOM BOOM, problem solved
  • #16
    Quote from athubaba

    Spirit walk and BOOM BOOM, problem solved


    You cant BOOM BOOM 40-100m HP unfortunatly.
  • #17
    Quote from NeutroNova

    I don't think anyone would disagree with you that RD packs at higher MP levels are a joke. but remember that old affix where a champion pack would have perma shielded minions until you killed the champion? That too was a retarded affix and wisely they removed it. Instead of trying to figure a way to boost your physical resis to 1200 and your armor to 8000 I would say just be patient because WD's arnt the only class complaining about the ridiculous amount of dmg that RD packs inflict at higher MP levels.

    The squeeky wheel gets the grease I bet its hot fixed soon or at the very latest next patch.


    Just wanted to add an 'I told you so' if u have seent he latest blue posts about RD
  • #18
    I usually nuke > Spirit Walk > nuke > potion > nuke until death > Spirit Journey > nuke > Spirit Walk > nuke.
    Since I rarely encounter 2 packs with reflect within 90sec I think it's working very well to just nuke yourself to death (and survive with Spirit Journey) when your first Spirit Walk and potion is on cooldown. And I only farm MP3 and MP5 so Spirit Journey is always up since there's hardly any other threats except for reflect damage packs at those MP's.
    Also, I'm pretty squishy (27k hp, 650 all res, 4k armor) and have no life on hit or life steal (only ~1k life/sec).
  • #19
    Did you honestly expect that a sick dps skill as zombie bears didnt have a downside? Have it ever occured to you that your not ment to be able to just zerg everything down with bears?

    You will have to balance offensive and defence. Glass cannons will not work on higher mp level no matter which class you are.

    Can't handle zombie bears? Dont use it then.

    And whats your defence? How much hp? how much armor? how much resist?

    Got less than 50k hp? Get more
    Got less than 800 all res? Get more?

    Defence is as important as offence on the high monster powers.
    Currently played toon: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/8990624
    Profit: Flipping/Sniping: 6577€
  • #20
    This isnt a discussion of glasscannon.

    We have more then 50k HP.

    to make 3% life steal weapon enough to handle reflect, you need 8k armor and 1200 physical resist. With decent defensive gear, and horrify 100% armor rune, possible.


    8k armor and 1200 physical.

    You said 800+. I dont think you read the OP Huminator.
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