1.04 -- Things I'm hoping to see

  • #41
    Quote from Alyten

    I think the thing that bothers me more than anything about wd pet problems is that nobody thought to go DOWN THE HALL to the wow team to ask them about pets.... sigh, stupid stupid stupid jay wilson....

    Diablo is packed with a LOT of things that are head scratchers of the, "wait, didn't Blizzard already figure out this was a bad idea in the first year of WoW?" The auction house, for example. The auction house search function looks like the kind of thing I would have made 15 years ago when I was just learning programming and picked up Visual Basic. It is laughably simplistic and amateur.
  • #42
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Rickarus

    I want pets to be viable WITHOUT stacking defensive stats OR make them offensively viable to defensively geared WDs.


    This sums up exactly why your whole point is absolutely ridiculous. You want Blizzard to mold pets to work for glass cannons, or make them work for tankdoctors.

    If you've chosen to forego defensive stats then that's your choice, but you shouldn't be rewarded with UBER TANK PET because that's absolutely ridiculously counterintuitive. Your solution is 100% about circumventing a very basic gearing choice. No defensive stats... too fucking bad. You have the option to get some defensive stats and if you choose not to do that then that's your perogative. It's completely ridiculous to suggest that pets should be uber tanks for glass cannons though.

    Seriously... why are you suggesting this? You are basically suggesting to make glass cannon WDs brutally overpowered. We need reasonable suggestions not "MAKE MY GLASS CANNON HAVE SUPER DEFENSE WITHOUT USING DEFENSIVE STATS BLIZZ PLX PLX PLX" stupidity. Do you not understand the ramifications of what you're suggesting here? It seems to me that you simply don't otherwise you'd know exactly how ignorant your suggestion is.


    Once again you fail to read my whole post. Unless you have EXTREME amounts of gold, it's impossible to get gear that will let you mix defensive stats and offensive stats. PERIOD. The only viable ways for someone who isn't rich to play a WD right now are either going all out for defensive stats, and getting any cheap dps stats as extras that they can, or going all out with dps stats and getting the occasional defensive stat if they can as an extra. Either method would not use pets if they simply make them scale with our defensive stats. Defensive geared WDs won't use them because they'll be pointless, because they want to do more damage with their skills since their gear will keep them alive. Offensive geared WDs won't use them because they'll still die in 1 or 2 hits from white mobs and be just as useless as they are now.

    What I would like to see is have pets be effective enough tanks in dps-centered gear build to allow the use of close range skills like locust swarm without taking an instant smack to the face. That doesn't mean they need to be invincible, but it means they should be able to handle getting whacked on by a couple white skeletons for a little while. I would fully expect the dogs to get killed by elite packs, but hopefully survive long enough that you could viably get close to them to use the close-mid range skills that are currently just wasted space in our skills window. The gargantuan on the other hand, should be able to survive through most of an elite pack fight, as long as it isn't some rough affixes/mobs.

    I'm mainly pointing out the fact that requiring a player to gear up defensively to make a skill, which is intended to function as a "defense/control" ability, aka keeping you from getting hit, is counter productive. If you are not getting hit, you don't need defensive gear, but if you want to use a skill meant to keep you from getting hit effectively, you need to have defensive gear. How do you NOT see that this is a problem.

    Numbers and ratios can be tweaked to make sure that its not OP for one spec or another, but the base needs to be there, and simply having pets scale with defensive stats is NOT the right base. In both of my posts, I listed the two possible bases that could potentially make pets viable, even if its only in one spec or another.

    Honestly, I would even be happy if dogs had their damage reduced to 5% weapon damage, or even completely removed baseline (leave the runes as is, change lifesteal to LOH), as long as they didn't require you to gear like a tank to keep them from dying. Garg could go either way, make him more defensive and hit like a wet noodle (or more like a wet noodle than he already does) or make him hit a bit harder but die more often. The sheer fact is that pets need to have some justification for giving up a currently more potent defensive (or offensive) skill such as mass confusion/horrify/BBV/fetish army/etc.
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  • #43
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Rickarus

    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from TheDFO

    if I'm building a tank, why would I need the tankiest pets? Wouldn't I want damage pets? Or, if the only way to make them viable is to be a tank already, then again, what's the point?


    I agree with everything you said except this.

    Zombie Dogs, especially, is categorized as a "defensive" ability. And it's plenty clear that both Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan are supposed to give the DK a measure of control. They absolutely must scale with defensive stats (and I believe they already do). If you want to build a tank witch doctor then you'll probably not want to take pets. It's really not going to change much.

    I just don't see a logical way to make pets scale on the opposite role you take. That's a ton of work for very little reward.


    The issue with WD pets scaling with defensive stats, is that it's counter-productive for a defensive ability meant to keep enemies from attacking you in a build where you would be gearing for defensive stats. They either need to be able to effectively do damage in tank build, or effectively tank for a decent amount of time in an offensive build. Therefore they need to scale defensively with offensive stats, or offensively with defensive stats. Otherwise they'll only be effective in higher gear levels where you already have high amounts of both offensive and defensive stats.

    IMO the Garg should be effectively as hard to kill as a decently geared Templar, even with low levels of defensive stats, and ZDs should be able to survive a decent amount of hits, longer with leeching beasts. Obviously this would be with pet/defensive-based passives. Also, pets should have the ability to taunt, or at least cause high amounts of threat so that enemies won't just run past them and attack the WD.

    Easy way to do that imo is scaling their life with the WDs Int, and increase the amount of resists they get from the WDs resists, etc.


    I'm not even going to bother to point out the 10+ reasons that your proposition is ineffective and accomplishes nothing aside from your insistance on forcing Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan to work with a niche spec like a tankdoctor. I assure you that you have not thought this through to see the absolutely glaring holes in what you're saying, though.

    What you are doing is taking abilities which were clearly designed for defense/control and tailoring them to a very niche playstyle, and that's akin to me complaining that Horrify doesn't have enough of a direct offensive use (like 50% weapon damage) which makes it useless for my spec. Abilities do NOT need to by hybridized like that. We take abilities like Horrify and Mass Confusion and Hex because they primarily provide control. The idea that every ability should be both offensive and defensive absolutely negates the choices we're supposed to be making. The point of the matter is that if you don't need control then you don't need Horrify.

    Abilities are supposed to have roles they fill. The goal of making a good spec is (in theory) supposed to be finding the proper synergy between your abilities and your playstyle. What you are doing is saying that you want Zombie Dogs to be viable in every single spec out there which is no more logical than me saying that Poison Darts has to be viable in every single spec out there. The bottom line is that they aren't and that they shouldn't be. If you need more offense in your tank build you probably should pick an offensive ability.

    I don't see what's so damned complicated about that. All you have is a solution looking for a problem.


    Hats off.

    The whole argument: why should i grab defensive gear for pets since i'm becoming the tank myself? It's simple. WD can't tank shit and will never tank shit unless ridicolously overgeread. We don't have 50% armor and resist buffs, we don't have huge healing abilities.

    Pets are the way WD can work towards a tanky build. WD's cant reach 13k armor and 1.5k all resistances like wizards, barbs and monks but they can creat bodies to tank damage for him. What about damage ? The very fact that you don't need to kite all the freaking time is already a huge damage booster. Barbs face roll act 3 with only 20k DPS while WD can't kill belial before the enrage timer with that damage.

    Character who can hold ground can do the same damage having more then half the DPS of kiter. Just pick a kiter build. Calculate the amount of time you pass running proportionaly to the leght of the fight. Thats the amount of DPS an chaarcter who can hold still have compared to a kiter but it's not counted on the DPS statistic.

    Ex: if you pass 80% of your time running and have 40k DPS someone who doesn't run at all during the fight can kill as fast as you do with only 5k DPS.
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  • #44
    I agree that the WD is the class that seems to need most tweaking in 104. It would be great if there would be some changes to the mana system as it feels way too limiting compared to the other class' resource systems. Reconsidering the long cooldowns on many WD abilities would be nice as well - even better if there would be neat way to reduce them during combat. But the thing that really needs a change at first are pets.

    Pets. Yes, they are too weak. But that is not my main concern here. What annoys me most is that the Witch Doctor is like the druid in D2. Pets are exclusively support. You aren't supposed to play as a real summoner. Remember the necro? You could swarm dungeons with dozens of minions, using curses and cadaver explosion to make your through that area. I really liked the feeling of leading an army against the forces of hell. I know this wont happen in D3. Sadly. But it would be great if we would see changes that allow us to replace the dogs and the gargantua quickly when they die and a better way to keep them alive to make a summoner build viable. I have tried it for a while, but no matter what I do I always see my minions getting killed within seconds while it takes a minute and longer until the spell is ready again.
  • #45
    Quote from Rickarus

    Honestly, I would even be happy if dogs had their damage reduced to 5% weapon damage, or even completely removed baseline (leave the runes as is, change lifesteal to LOH), as long as they didn't require you to gear like a tank to keep them from dying. Garg could go either way, make him more defensive and hit like a wet noodle (or more like a wet noodle than he already does) or make him hit a bit harder but die more often. The sheer fact is that pets need to have some justification for giving up a currently more potent defensive (or offensive) skill such as mass confusion/horrify/BBV/fetish army/etc.


    I'm probably not the only one who did not read your previous posts in that manner. You are asking, in this last section that I quoted, for something that all WDs most likely want. Pets *do* have to be viable out-of-the-box without lots of defensive stats, of course.

    But if you go back and re-read your other posts that's very much different from the direction you are going by saying that pets should be "viable" for glass cannons. It may be a minor misunderstanding based on the word "glass cannon" versus what I'm thinking of, which is the word "baseline" or "out-of-the-box" but it just sounds like you're saying something different now than you were.

    The most reasonable ways to make pets viable out-of-the-box is to do the following:

    1) Add in vitality scaling. The fact that they made it live without this blows my mind. It's a drastic shortcoming - of course raw HPs only go so far, but having pets that have the same life in Act 3 Hell as they do in Act 3 Inferno is a horrible thing that makes the other problems even worse...

    2) PvE AoE damage reduction Hell, possibly PvP too (but I'm not going to commit to that because I don't even know what PvP will be like). Our pets should not be AoE targets, just like pets in WoW. Pets are dumb, they just attack shit, they don't know how to move out of stuff. Yet they take full damage from ground effects that wreck them to pieces. They are particularly suceptible to arcane sentries since you tend to get melee range overlap with them.

    3) Better scaling on Armor and Resist All - give them diminishing returns for all I care, the scaling does not have to be linear, but the baseline scaling is absolutely inadequate.

    4) Baseline 30% damage reduction. If Barbs and Monks need it because being in melee range constantly is a problem in Inferno then our pets need it too. Maybe just make Jungle Fortitude baseline and change the part on the WD to 15%. If we're supposed to be a hybrid ranged-melee class then we should get some reduction love too.

    5) Not require a passive for regen scaling - then just tune the regen scaling so that regen/LoH/etc are not massively OP statistics. Make Fierce Loyalty into an ability that isn't TERRIBLY BLAND!!!!

    Anyway, if they did those things I think it would truly make the pets reasonable to begin with, and like I said, the armor/res all scaling does not have to be linear such that you don't feel totally forced to stack defensive stats. What it needs to be is a higher baseline than it is now because, AoE aside, pets still get wrecked by melee attacks pretty easily.

    However, pets do not need to scale on int to achieve what you want. Being an int user, we have some baseline resist all, even as a glass cannon, and we do have baseline armor. It's just a matter of those stats not helping our pets out sufficiently. Perhaps the pets need X baseline armor + Y% of owner's armor. I don't know the exact solution or what the equation should be, but it is clear that something like that should be done.
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  • #46
    I'd be perfectly happy if they reworked dogs and garg into skills with a limited duration but they could actually tank while they are up.

    For example, I'd be happy to have Garg last 15 seconds and be able to take A LOT of punishment (i.e. very unlikely to die unless the entire screen is full of hard hitting mobs).

    Same goes for Dogs but they could possibly last a bit longer but able to handle a bit less damage than the Garg. Another option for the dogs would be to buff their survivability a bit and decrease their cooldown by a lot. They could still be fairly disposable (I'd expect them to last at least 2-3 hits) but you could recast them fairly quickly (15 second cooldown with a decent mana cost maybe?)

    I don't think that's asking for the world and we would see people actually using the skills then. I would be interested in trying out the passive to reduce cooldown and try to make a neat Garg build... it'd be fun.
  • #47
    My feedback on WD's - Some form or way to control the pet. They are like passive followers at best now - and that is not even looking at how bad the pets in fact are.

    Re-work the passives that play onto the pets (Fierce Loyalty) - re-work the CD's ; an example of a bad situation is when i summoned Flaming gargantuan and thought it was pretty okay, until i realized it was a CD. That's when you know, your way of dealing with a pet, is very bad.

    Other then that? Re-work damage homogenized spells. Each damaging spell should have a sufficient output in such a manner that it becomes a strength and has a draw-back ; most of the spells DON'T have this. They have some weird mix-up of throwing in %'s here and there, making it a simply "This spell does more damage, the other one does less - I go with A" - And you could TRY to bring up Mana conservation in this, but if i can kill anything reliably with my bats, why would i care for another spell then. It's the funny thing, you accounted for people being dumb about the spells, but who are you selling that game to? Who is this mysterious dumb crowd you are referring to when you feel that you made the spells as they are currently?

    What i mean is, mana should be about how can i conserve it, how can i skillfully manage it - right now it's "Okay , i got 5 seconds to spam bats. Go. Kite till i regen mana, then spam bats" - And it's all because everything is homogenized damage spells anyway beyond Control spells, but even the control spells are meek.

    Sure mass confusion is awesome, but in ratio to it's CD? Why would i use it? And that's WITH a CD reduction rune. I can't imagine i'd like another rune on it, that brings it to higher CD, and less use.

    So in the end, i think that having the game being "towards everyone" - you pretty much aimed it at having it to no-one. Because even as astonishing some of the effects are on spells, it does not take a very clever person nor very experienced one, to have you tell that something is wrong with these runes - Because runes are supposed to be diversity defined in such a manner, of how you deal damage. You are not to choose between "Do i want this dmg spell or the other dmg spell?" - It should be "THis damage spells with this rune, gives me this strength, which plays into my playstyle, but this other one gives me good stuff as well - But then i'd have to change" All of a sudden you have active choices, dynamics, people can think about it - choose - And you can still retain the "For those who are casual, have this effect" etc.

    So what went wrong Blizz? Did you forget what you were doing? Where did your YEARS of experience from WoW go? Where did things turn so that you think that LESS features, would be a good thing, compared to a complex game with depth to it , that can still intrigue the normal player by allowing him to develop in several ways, not just "Derp purple spells" - Because let's face it, the major critique you are getting, is not even remotely close to "this game is bad". It's on the level of that people can go to write ESSAYS on what mechanically, for each class, defines them as messed up - And when that boils down, you know what you found out? That your design was lazy. That you simply put, were lazy.

    I'm sorry, that's perhaps not constructive , but my point is still valid, You have personally faced the same thing with Inferno tuning, where you literally went to answer "Oh well but we did a mistake, get over it" - We are the f'cking customers, we payed for this - You want people to keep spewing money on this cash-cow, you do something better of it. Because right now, people WILL get tired of it, very easily. People WILL NOT, just refrain to the same old item hunt, once they get cynical about skill setups and how they work - That's the entire skill system, technically being funked.

    That's not a easy thing for me to say blizzard, seeing how i invested 300 hours into this game, you hear me, 300 hours of my life, and i enjoy it at times still, but the more i see it, the more i think "This is pretty poorly designed. I don't care for Purple pixels, i want some damn choices" - And don't come telling me that "Oh hey, but the casual won't understand as good as you" - A normal person, someone who is literally not straining their intelligence to breathe, will be able to figure out ways to have it fun to play for them, even if not optimized - EVEN WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE HOMOGENIZED SPELLS.

    I cannot stress it enough, i cannot repeat my self, clearly enough, loudly enough - It is simply put LAZY to just say "But every spell needs a flat damage increase rune" - It is NOT how the different spells need to play their role, if a spell is about damage, have it do some utility as well, have it do some crazy effect, have it be DIFFERENT, because my screen flickering 90k or 70k, is not different, that is a 2 second or 2 uses difference for me, and that's an entire rune being boiled down for you, a whole piece of a puzzle, goes down to be 2 seconds of a difference in killing. That's not even noticeable, that's not even remotely enough to actually be of use to a person in such a way, that they will see the point in having to change builds.

    Read this with a grain of salt, a huge grain of salt, because i am furious atm. But really, don't brush it off as "Oh this guy mad" - Because what i say IS mean, IS true, IS supported by reason - it's not some cooked up statistics of how the game is, it's not a random number i write in rage - I write this long text, to explain to you, Blizzard, if you ever read this, That you must re-consider your ways, and stop treating us as if we are dumber then rocks. Because it hurts your product, not us - But YOUR product.
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  • #48
    Quote from KiriONE

    Mana: At this point after playing a monk fully through inferno and a wizard into hell (I actually play and not farm Leorics manor for each difficulty). Resource management on those classes just feels so much more natural. Diablo 2 felt like resource spending game, Diablo 3 feels like resource generation game. This point has been argued so heavily that if Blizzard doesn't make some kind of change -- whether it be in skill mana adjustment or a buff elsewhere -- I'd say it's clear that they don't play WD nearly as much as Barbarian (which seems to be the most well thought-out.


    QFT. The mana resource system needs a complete overhaul. We can burn our mana in 4-5 sec and have to 20-40 sec for it to regen. No other class has that huge a difference between spending and earning resources. Sure all classes could burn their full resource even quicker, but they can also regen them in a few seconds.

    Quote from Derwiv33

    Summon Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 14 seconds.

    Hex - Angry Chicken rune's cooldown has been reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. In addition, the skill now knockbacks nearby enemies with the explosion.

    Hex - Hedge Magic rune now heals for 5% of the players max HP instead of 1861 HP. In addition, the skill now heals nearby allies as well instead of choosing the one with least HP.

    Big Bad Voodoo - Rain Dance rune will now regenerate 20% of the players maximum resource per second. In addition, the skill now affects allies as well.

    Zombie Handler will now have an additional effect. One pet will survive from fatal damage and heal themselfs to 50% HP. This effect cannot happen more than once per 120 seconds. The skill is global among all pets meaning if a dog uses the skill, gargantuan needs to wait 120 seconds.

    While under the effects of Spirit Vessel, the player can move through units like in Spirit Walk.


    -Summon Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 14 seconds.
    -Zombie Handler will now have an additional effect. One pet will survive from fatal damage and heal themselfs to 50% HP. This effect cannot happen more than once per 120 seconds. The skill is global among all pets meaning if a dog uses the skill, gargantuan needs to wait 120 seconds.

    Make a mix out of these two and you might be on to something. Use the second effect, but allow it to proc at something like once every 20 sec for dogs. Keep the CD for dogs at 60sec. And just make the Garg more robust, as he can't tank more then 1 target at the time anyway.


    -Hex - Angry Chicken rune's cooldown has been reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. In addition, the skill now knockbacks nearby enemies with the explosion.

    I thought it already did a knockback???


    -Hex - Hedge Magic rune now heals for 5% of the players max HP instead of 1861 HP. In addition, the skill now heals nearby allies as well instead of choosing the one with least HP.

    ALL the heals should work in a % manner (with a minimum fixed value). Not just the WD ones. I think the Monks would agree.


    -Big Bad Voodoo - Rain Dance rune will now regenerate 20% of the players maximum resource per second. In addition, the skill now affects allies as well.

    I like it. And sure it might sound OP, but remember, that fetish circle isn't that big, how often can a group of 4 gather up and stand in place for 20 sec ^^


    -While under the effects of Spirit Vessel, the player can move through units like in Spirit Walk.

    I think they fixed/or was about to fix this as well.


    Quote from TheDFO

    Firebomb - base damage increased to 100% (which is still the lowest damage of the WD's primaries). Additionally, all "repeat" runes such as Roll the Bones and Flash Fire can hit the same enemies repeatedly.

    Locust Swarm - Base range tripled. The speed of the cloud reduced by 50% every original length (not sure what it was).

    Fire Bats - Range doubled. Fire bats spreads out so that it does less damage the farther away the enemy is. Dire bats range not changed.


    Hehe, you might wanna rethink that bouncing on the same target for Flash Fire. You are saying that you want it do do 100% + 85% + 70% + 65% + 50% + 35% = 405% dmg / cast ^^?

    I have 0 problems hitting with Locust Swarm.

    I wouldn't mind having the non-Dire bat runes reach a little further. That's the main reason everyone runs ONLY Dire bat runes in a VQ spec.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Something I would really love to see changed, is Haunt. Atm there is 0 incentive to use this skill at the higher lvls due to 3 things:

    It's mana cost is just to friggin' high.
    It doesn't jump between targets nearly as good a Locust Swarm does.
    Is inferior to Locust Swarm in almost every way, so if we just have 1 slot left for an extra spell we pick Swarm over Haunt.

    One of the most fun times I had on my WD was at the low lvls just having gotten 2 sec duration Haunt, which was still fairly cheap in mana at those lvls. So I used that INSTEAD of my primary (was kick ass fun) and used Locust Swarm as my secondary ^^!

    Sadly, even with maxed out mana regen gear this is just not possible at the higher lvls UNLESS you use a VQ spec, and since you are using 2 attack spells that forces you to keep the rest of your abilities on constant CD... I don't know about you, but I like to keep my Spirit walk handy while playing HC Inferno :P

    Ohhhh and the BIG P.S. Blizzard you fixed the issue with dots not scaling with crits, can you plz fix it so that they scale with attackspeed so I can actually use my class specific items instead of walking around with my big phat pole-arm >.<?
    Winter is coming...
  • #49
    Quote from Nausicaa

    Quote from TheDFO

    Firebomb - base damage increased to 100% (which is still the lowest damage of the WD's primaries). Additionally, all "repeat" runes such as Roll the Bones and Flash Fire can hit the same enemies repeatedly.

    Locust Swarm - Base range tripled. The speed of the cloud reduced by 50% every original length (not sure what it was).

    Fire Bats - Range doubled. Fire bats spreads out so that it does less damage the farther away the enemy is. Dire bats range not changed.


    Hehe, you might wanna rethink that bouncing on the same target for Flash Fire. You are saying that you want it do do 100% + 85% + 70% + 65% + 50% + 35% = 405% dmg / cast ^^?

    I have 0 problems hitting with Locust Swarm.

    I wouldn't mind having the non-Dire bat runes reach a little further. That's the main reason everyone runs ONLY Dire bat runes in a VQ spec.



    Okay, so my love of Firebomb got the better of me. But I think that either needs the 100% base, or to hit more than once (maybe not all six, but at least twice)

    Also, I think it's a multiplicative reduction. Otherwise it'd be doing negative damage on the last hit (as it stands now, starting at 85%)

    And the point with increasing range on LS and FB isn't because we have trouble hitting with it, but because we get hit when we do hit with it. Also, they have to compete with longer ranged skills (such as dire bats) that do just as much damage, and in the case of LS, they do it much faster.
  • #50
    Quote from TheDFO


    Okay, so my love of Firebomb got the better of me. But I think that either needs the 100% base, or to hit more than once (maybe not all six, but at least twice)

    Also, I think it's a multiplicative reduction. Otherwise it'd be doing negative damage on the last hit (as it stands now, starting at 85%)

    And the point with increasing range on LS and FB isn't because we have trouble hitting with it, but because we get hit when we do hit with it. Also, they have to compete with longer ranged skills (such as dire bats) that do just as much damage, and in the case of LS, they do it much faster.


    I still think that Firebomb suffers like the rest of the WDs abilities his animation is way too long and he's caught looking at the bomb. Sometimes it feels like an NBA star taking a jumper and waiting for it to drop rather than following it up for the rebound (just in case). Not a bad ablity otherwise, and all the runes are acceptable.
  • #51
    Quote from "Nausicaa" »

    Make a mix out of these two and you might be on to something. Use the second effect, but allow it to proc at something like once every 20 sec for dogs. Keep the CD for dogs at 60sec. And just make the Garg more robust, as he can't tank more then 1 target at the time anyway.


    Keeping the CD of zombie dogs at 60 seconds makes sacrifice useless. It definitely needs to be less than 20 seconds for sacrifice to be even worth considering.

    Firebomb is multiplicative reduction (85% *0,85*0,85*0,85*0,85*0,85*0,85). This means that it already does ~300% weapon damage, but it's divided among 7 targets of course (The 7th target takes ~32% damage).

    In my opinion BBV is already very powerful and it's supposed to be a party-buff, so making a rune that only benefits witch doctor is highly against the skill's logic in my opinion. Also, for example the Hex's 5% heal that I suggested is worse than the current 1861 HP heal if you have less than 37k HP. Many don't realize this.

    In my opinion Locust Swarm's problem is not its range. In fact, I think Locust Swarm doesn't have any problems. It's one of our strongest skills when used in combination with bad medicine. I've heard that WD should get the 30% damage reduction for its pets many times, but they can actually get 40% reduction with jungle fortitude and bad medicine. It's all about choosing your skills.

    Personally I think pets would be fine if they benefitted from our vitality. Currently one point of vit is +35 HP for players, so even +15 HP would be more than enough to keep the dogs alive. For example I have over 1000 Vitality, the dogs HP seems to be somewhere around 10-15k, so if they gained +15 HP from every point of vitality, they would double their HP. Add in Zombie Handler and you get 36k HP for the zombie dogs. Gargantuan would probably be near to 100k HP, then you just stack a bit of resists and they would at least live until their cooldown is ready again even with 300 all resists. However, like I've said, I think the cooldown for Zombie Dogs has to be ~14-20 seconds at most in order for sacrifice to be viable. Gargantuan's CD is fine, but I still think tribal rites passive should affect him as well.

    Pets damage is fine also. Even if everyone is able to keep them up nearly 24/7 without stacking too much defensive stats wouldn't make them overpowered (it would benefit glass-cannons a bit more than tanks though). I also think they should fix the LoH+big stinker/burning dogs "feature". Currently it just gives way too much HP in earlier difficulties.

    Personally I haven't experienced any problems with any of the animations. I think most are having problems because they are using slow 2-handed weapons. Get a ceremonial knfie, sword or a dagger and there's barely any delay in my opinion at least. You can also get more attack speed to negate the effect. Every class has long animations if they use slow weapons.

    I'm probably the only one who thinks this, but as I've said many times, I find mana regeneration to be fine. There's a reason why there's 3 pieces of gear with mana regeneration (weapon, off-hand, helmet). Currently my mana regeneration is 53 without any passives. However, I feel like there are a few skills that could use a reduction in mana cost. Those skills are acid cloud and spirit barrage (probably 10-20 mana cost reduction to both would be fine in my opinion). You can also "generate" resources by choosing a rune on poison dart or corpse spiders. Of course you can argue that "other classes don't need to rely on gear to get proper resource management" and so on, but then is that a problem with WD or a problem with other classes' resources? In my opinion it's the other classes' resources.


    Oh and finally, you CAN decrease the cooldowns during combat by using "Grave Injustice"-passive skill. I've heard that "It doesn't help against elites", but it actually does. There's usually plenty of white mobs around when I attack elites, especially if I choose to kite. It also gives you mana and heals you, it's a underappreciated passive.
  • #52
    Quote from Derwiv33

    I'm probably the only one who thinks this, but as I've said many times, I find mana regeneration to be fine. There's a reason why there's 3 pieces of gear with mana regeneration (weapon, off-hand, helmet). Currently my mana regeneration is 53 without any passives. However, I feel like there are a few skills that could use a reduction in mana cost. Those skills are acid cloud and spirit barrage (probably 10-20 mana cost reduction to both would be fine in my opinion). You can also "generate" resources by choosing a rune on poison dart or corpse spiders. Of course you can argue that "other classes don't need to rely on gear to get proper resource management" and so on, but then is that a problem with WD or a problem with other classes' resources? In my opinion it's the other classes' resources.


    I don't understand your way of thinking here.

    The best way to illustrate my point would be to compare mana with Arcane Power.

    Mana
    * The only popular builds right now either use Vision Quest or a Primary Skill to spam. If you don't do either of these, you will have mana problems.
    * Even with mana regen items, you'll still have issues spamming high cost spells without VQ.
    Arcane Power
    * Even without AP on crit gear, you can spam many (I'm not talking Arcane Orb or Meteor here) AP spenders fairly well.
    * Arcane power gear (especially AP on crit) makes you have basically infinite AP with certain builds.

    See the difference? You could argue that different classes should behave differently... but the problem is that the design goal of mana failed. The design goal was to have a big pool that slowly regenerates. What we got instead was a small pool that slowly generates. We can go from full to 0 mana in a few seconds without VQ.

    For reference, I have a 60 Wiz and WD (although I play the WD MUCH more).
  • #53
    Granted, I haven't played wizard so I don't know how it is with that class. However, I can use grasp of the undead, locusts, and a couple of acid clouds every 8 seconds while using primary attack without having mana issues. Acid cloud I have usually runed with Acid Rain or Slow Burn (depending where I farm). It's hardly effective to "spam" these skills except for Acid Cloud, but even that has a 3 second DoT-effect (so I guess they wanted us to wait that 3 seconds before using it again).

    I also play with firebats sometimes, however I use the plagued bats instead of dire bats and it works fine. I can spam all of my mana on it and still have mana for other stuff like primary and debuffs. Since the plagued bats also does damage while I am regening mana, it's hardly out from my DPS. I don't need to regen to full mana after I've used all of my mana either. Even half the mana is enough for plagued bats to kill the remaining mobs after using the debuffs (and then the fight is over and I regen mana while searching for new enemies).

    There are other secondary skills you can spam and have basically infinite mana as well. For example spirit barrage with rush of essense passive and spirit is willing rune makes it spammable without basically losing any mana. Then there's haunt, which is free to use if you rune it with draining spirit. I already said that I "somewhat spam" acid cloud as well, because I always wait at least the 3 seconds to get the full effect from the skill (which is how I believe the skill is meant to be used).

    Now we are left with Zombie Charger and Firebats. The two biggest hitters WD has (when runed with dire bats and zombie bears). I don't think other runes are even worth considering for these skills, except for plagued bats, which is perfectly spammable with my mana regen (since it does damage.after you've stopped casting it). Shouldn't they be compared with Arcane Orb or Meteor? They seem to be in the same damage range.


    If other classes can't spam their most powerful skills, why should the witch doctor be able to do it? (even though it is possible with VQ). Hopefully this gave insight to my way of thinking :)

    PS: I have lv60 WD on SC with lots of hours on it. I had lv60 HC WD with 50 hours on it, but it died in Inferno Act 1. I also have lv40 barb on SC and I had lv60 barb on HC too, but it died in Inferno Act 2. I have lost lv41 demon hunter and lv52 monk on HC as well. Currently I am leveling a new WD on HC (lv50 at the moment). My point is that my playstyle is probably different to yours since I play on HC at the moment (I test the builds in SC and transfer them to HC), but I still play SC with friends and try to upgrade that WD as well.
  • #54
    Quote from Derwiv33

    Granted, I haven't played wizard so I don't know how it is with that class. However, I can use grasp of the undead, locusts, and a couple of acid clouds every 8 seconds while using primary attack without having mana issues. Acid cloud I have usually runed with Acid Rain or Slow Burn (depending where I farm). It's hardly effective to "spam" these skills except for Acid Cloud, but even that has a 3 second DoT-effect (so I guess they wanted us to wait that 3 seconds before using it again).

    I also play with firebats sometimes, however I use the plagued bats instead of dire bats and it works fine. I can spam all of my mana on it and still have mana for other stuff like primary and debuffs. Since the plagued bats also does damage while I am regening mana, it's hardly out from my DPS. I don't need to regen to full mana after I've used all of my mana either. Even half the mana is enough for plagued bats to kill the remaining mobs after using the debuffs (and then the fight is over and I regen mana while searching for new enemies).

    There are other secondary skills you can spam and have basically infinite mana as well. For example spirit barrage with rush of essense passive and spirit is willing rune makes it spammable without basically losing any mana. Then there's haunt, which is free to use if you rune it with draining spirit. I already said that I "somewhat spam" acid cloud as well, because I always wait at least the 3 seconds to get the full effect from the skill (which is how I believe the skill is meant to be used).

    Now we are left with Zombie Charger and Firebats. The two biggest hitters WD has (when runed with dire bats and zombie bears). I don't think other runes are even worth considering for these skills, except for plagued bats, which is perfectly spammable with my mana regen (since it does damage.after you've stopped casting it). Shouldn't they be compared with Arcane Orb or Meteor? They seem to be in the same damage range.


    If other classes can't spam their most powerful skills, why should the witch doctor be able to do it? (even though it is possible with VQ). Hopefully this gave insight to my way of thinking :)

    PS: I have lv60 WD with around 200+ hours on it on SC. I had lv60 HC WD with 50 hours on it, but it died in Inferno Act 1. I also have lv40 barb on SC and I had lv60 barb on HC too, but it died in Inferno Act 2. I have lost lv41 demon hunter and lv52 monk on HC as well. Currently I am leveling a new WD on HC (lv50 at the moment). My point is that my playstyle is probably different to yours since I currently play on HC.


    That's the problem though. What you described as how you play WITH your mana regen gear is the same way the Wizards play WITHOUT AP on crit gear. That is why mana is broken.

    Once you get enough crit hit and AP on crit gear, you will basically have an unlimited amount of AP with certain builds.
  • #55
    Mana is definitely broken.

    Poison Dart costs 15 mana / sec with 1.5 speed. That's a net gain of +5 mana a sec with base regen. If you cast Grasp of the Dead once you're running a deficit. Sure you aren't casting all the time, but the fact is that our primaries are basically useless. They aren't good for regenerating mana at all.

    And if you get Pierce the Veil (which is basically needed to make Poison Dart competitive) you're looking at 19.5 mana / sec with 20 regen. So essentially you're regenerating nothing... and that's without even using Grasp or anything.

    People only use Poison Dart because they don't like VQ gameplay or have too much IAS to use Dire Bats. People use RoT, but that's with VQ too for the LoH.

    The bottom line is that every good WD build requires 1) Vision Quest or 2) Mana Regen or 3) Both. Even if you're using only Poison Dart with 1.5 speed even without PtV you still need regen. The only imaginable alternative is SA w/ Honored Guest, but SA isn't a good passive over JF and using SW for mana regen is a mistake. Using a mana regen attack like Devouring Swarm is a possibility but will leave you worse off than if you got another CC ability, so no one really does that if they're trying to use a good build.

    People have to take a passive that multiplies our regen by 4 and/or get specific gear with mana regen on it for the class to be viable.

    I'm not sure what the solution is, but mana is definitely not right.
  • #56
    EDIT: Fixed first part, misunderstood.

    Overall I'm personally quite happy with how mana is at the moment, since I don't see a problem with having to use witch doctor-only-gear (they are usually as good as the others, but cheaper since only WDs can buy them).
    The only small complaint I have with having to use mana regen gear is that it restricts some of the gear you can use. However, it would be cool if they brought "The Mystic" with the ability to put class-restricted affixed on every gear. For example +mana regen on shield or on a sword/axe etc and class-based ability cooldowns on a matching piece of gear without it.

    I think most seem to feel that giving us a skill that gains us mana when we hit would solve the problem. Be it with a primary or a critical hit like the other classes. However, chances are most would still play with VQ because it's more effective.
  • #57
    back to the pet

    An easy solution to make em viable with both a tanking specc and a glass cannon specc is to just not have them scale with gear at all, or just a fraction. say 10-25% of what it is now.

    Instead have everyting in the runes and passives.

    Jungle Fortitude is fine.

    Zombie handler: add more hp% 50-100% add in 75-90% AoE Reduction.

    Fierce loyality. give them 100-200% from life regen and thorns. add in 50% reduction from normal damage.

    Circle of life, increase range to 20 yards. pickup bonus range the same. also for every dog lost reduce CD of your summon Zombie dog by 10 secs. Also increase summon chance to 10%

    Tribal Rites: Include gargantuan.

    This would buff the pets conciderable witout being to gear dependant. OFC numbers may need some tweaking but thes are my toughts. could possibly have come up with something for the rune effects but they are pretty fine as it is already.
  • #58
    Quote from Vomica

    back to the pet

    An easy solution to make em viable with both a tanking specc and a glass cannon specc is to just not have them scale with gear at all, or just a fraction. say 10-25% of what it is now.

    Instead have everyting in the runes and passives.

    Jungle Fortitude is fine.

    Zombie handler: add more hp% 50-100% add in 75-90% AoE Reduction.

    Fierce loyality. give them 100-200% from life regen and thorns. add in 50% reduction from normal damage.

    Circle of life, increase range to 20 yards. pickup bonus range the same. also for every dog lost reduce CD of your summon Zombie dog by 10 secs. Also increase summon chance to 10%

    Tribal Rites: Include gargantuan.

    This would buff the pets conciderable witout being to gear dependant. OFC numbers may need some tweaking but thes are my toughts. could possibly have come up with something for the rune effects but they are pretty fine as it is already.


    I think these changes would be very good if you managed to balance it out with the numbers, because it would provide variety in how you can dynamically play with your pets (Do you wish to have them very tanky or more a DPS thing so you can keep spam and sacrifice them?)
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  • #59
    Quote from Doorsfan

    Quote from Vomica

    back to the pet

    An easy solution to make em viable with both a tanking specc and a glass cannon specc is to just not have them scale with gear at all, or just a fraction. say 10-25% of what it is now.

    Instead have everyting in the runes and passives.

    Jungle Fortitude is fine.

    Zombie handler: add more hp% 50-100% add in 75-90% AoE Reduction.

    Fierce loyality. give them 100-200% from life regen and thorns. add in 50% reduction from normal damage.

    Circle of life, increase range to 20 yards. pickup bonus range the same. also for every dog lost reduce CD of your summon Zombie dog by 10 secs. Also increase summon chance to 10%

    Tribal Rites: Include gargantuan.

    This would buff the pets conciderable witout being to gear dependant. OFC numbers may need some tweaking but thes are my toughts. could possibly have come up with something for the rune effects but they are pretty fine as it is already.


    I think these changes would be very good if you managed to balance it out with the numbers, because it would provide variety in how you can dynamically play with your pets (Do you wish to have them very tanky or more a DPS thing so you can keep spam and sacrifice them?)


    I really don't think that would work at all. That's essentially what you have *right now* with pets. I mean, sure you could buff the numbers, but you are still stuck in a place where the pet's value is more or less static because they're not scaling appropriately with gear. This is important in Inferno where gear is the only scaling factor, but difficulty is not constant.

    Not scaling on gear doesn't work when you look at the difference in stats we have (and more importantly the mobs) between, say, Hell Act 4 and Inferno Acts 3/4, even though it's likely that you're doing that content at level 60. If your pets were never to improve between those two extremes, except for choice in passives, you basically have the current situation all over again, just with bigger % modifiers which mask the problem for longer. We don't really need a "mask" for the problem that delays it from becoming a problem, we need a total solution for the problem such that we never revisit it again.
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  • #60
    Quote from Nausicaa

    Quote from KiriONE

    Mana: At this point after playing a monk fully through inferno and a wizard into hell (I actually play and not farm Leorics manor for each difficulty). Resource management on those classes just feels so much more natural. Diablo 2 felt like resource spending game, Diablo 3 feels like resource generation game. This point has been argued so heavily that if Blizzard doesn't make some kind of change -- whether it be in skill mana adjustment or a buff elsewhere -- I'd say it's clear that they don't play WD nearly as much as Barbarian (which seems to be the most well thought-out.


    QFT. The mana resource system needs a complete overhaul. We can burn our mana in 4-5 sec and have to 20-40 sec for it to regen. No other class has that huge a difference between spending and earning resources. Sure all classes could burn their full resource even quicker, but they can also regen them in a few seconds.

    Quote from Derwiv33

    Summon Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 14 seconds.

    Hex - Angry Chicken rune's cooldown has been reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. In addition, the skill now knockbacks nearby enemies with the explosion.

    Hex - Hedge Magic rune now heals for 5% of the players max HP instead of 1861 HP. In addition, the skill now heals nearby allies as well instead of choosing the one with least HP.

    Big Bad Voodoo - Rain Dance rune will now regenerate 20% of the players maximum resource per second. In addition, the skill now affects allies as well.

    Zombie Handler will now have an additional effect. One pet will survive from fatal damage and heal themselfs to 50% HP. This effect cannot happen more than once per 120 seconds. The skill is global among all pets meaning if a dog uses the skill, gargantuan needs to wait 120 seconds.

    While under the effects of Spirit Vessel, the player can move through units like in Spirit Walk.


    -Summon Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 14 seconds.
    -Zombie Handler will now have an additional effect. One pet will survive from fatal damage and heal themselfs to 50% HP. This effect cannot happen more than once per 120 seconds. The skill is global among all pets meaning if a dog uses the skill, gargantuan needs to wait 120 seconds.

    Make a mix out of these two and you might be on to something. Use the second effect, but allow it to proc at something like once every 20 sec for dogs. Keep the CD for dogs at 60sec. And just make the Garg more robust, as he can't tank more then 1 target at the time anyway.


    -Hex - Angry Chicken rune's cooldown has been reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. In addition, the skill now knockbacks nearby enemies with the explosion.

    I thought it already did a knockback???


    -Hex - Hedge Magic rune now heals for 5% of the players max HP instead of 1861 HP. In addition, the skill now heals nearby allies as well instead of choosing the one with least HP.

    ALL the heals should work in a % manner (with a minimum fixed value). Not just the WD ones. I think the Monks would agree.


    -Big Bad Voodoo - Rain Dance rune will now regenerate 20% of the players maximum resource per second. In addition, the skill now affects allies as well.

    I like it. And sure it might sound OP, but remember, that fetish circle isn't that big, how often can a group of 4 gather up and stand in place for 20 sec ^^


    -While under the effects of Spirit Vessel, the player can move through units like in Spirit Walk.

    I think they fixed/or was about to fix this as well.


    Quote from TheDFO

    Firebomb - base damage increased to 100% (which is still the lowest damage of the WD's primaries). Additionally, all "repeat" runes such as Roll the Bones and Flash Fire can hit the same enemies repeatedly.

    Locust Swarm - Base range tripled. The speed of the cloud reduced by 50% every original length (not sure what it was).

    Fire Bats - Range doubled. Fire bats spreads out so that it does less damage the farther away the enemy is. Dire bats range not changed.


    Hehe, you might wanna rethink that bouncing on the same target for Flash Fire. You are saying that you want it do do 100% + 85% + 70% + 65% + 50% + 35% = 405% dmg / cast ^^?

    I have 0 problems hitting with Locust Swarm.

    I wouldn't mind having the non-Dire bat runes reach a little further. That's the main reason everyone runs ONLY Dire bat runes in a VQ spec.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Something I would really love to see changed, is Haunt. Atm there is 0 incentive to use this skill at the higher lvls due to 3 things:

    It's mana cost is just to friggin' high.
    It doesn't jump between targets nearly as good a Locust Swarm does.
    Is inferior to Locust Swarm in almost every way, so if we just have 1 slot left for an extra spell we pick Swarm over Haunt.

    One of the most fun times I had on my WD was at the low lvls just having gotten 2 sec duration Haunt, which was still fairly cheap in mana at those lvls. So I used that INSTEAD of my primary (was kick ass fun) and used Locust Swarm as my secondary ^^!

    Sadly, even with maxed out mana regen gear this is just not possible at the higher lvls UNLESS you use a VQ spec, and since you are using 2 attack spells that forces you to keep the rest of your abilities on constant CD... I don't know about you, but I like to keep my Spirit walk handy while playing HC Inferno :P

    Ohhhh and the BIG P.S. Blizzard you fixed the issue with dots not scaling with crits, can you plz fix it so that they scale with attackspeed so I can actually use my class specific items instead of walking around with my big phat pole-arm >.<?


    I"m currently farming Act 3 and i use Haunt in my spec. Haunt is great skill vc. packs. You can cast it from a safe distance and it deals more damage per mana then any spender skill WD have (meaning it won't canniblize mana of spenders skills).

    The differences between Carrion Swarm and Haunt are huge. CS is pretty mana intensive and have decent DPS, meaning it does really works like a secondary skill such as acid cloud, zombie chargers and firebats. I can't picture an WD using an primary ability, a secondary one AND CS.
    Haunt is cheap and its duration is big, meaning you don't need to recast it very often. Haunt is sustanaible damage skill. It more or less fits the role of Hydra and Damage buffs - an situational damage buff meant to make you bit stronger vs. elites. Also, Haunt is free if you use the mana return rune, despite the number of targets available. They could definetly buff other runes though
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