Everyone complaining

  • #1
    about WD's need to learn how to play your class and take advantage of all it's assets.. WD's have a very unique skill set as well as play style. There are NUMEROUS different competitive builds to suit an array of different styles. WD's do great damage, are very durable for a caster class, and have some of the best cooldowns in the game (due to their different uses and relatively short cooldowns).

    Before you flame a class and say that it needs fixed or is broken you should devote the time that the other top players do into understanding the advantages of the class.

    That is all.

    Thank you.
  • #2
    How about before you start flaming people for complaining about a class, you give examples on how they are wrong. You can't just say dumb shit and then not give examples on how they are wrong. Since apparently lots of people need to learn to play, why don't you give us your build and the stats that you build for.
  • #3
    Quote from Cruzlah

    How about before you start flaming people for complaining about a class, you give examples on how they are wrong. You can't just say dumb shit and then not give examples on how they are wrong. Since apparently lots of people need to learn to play, why don't you give us your build and the stats that you build for.


    Instead of OP, I will answer your question nicely.

    I'm clearing Act 3 and Act 4 for 20 days with EZ mode.

    I never used Bears, I never used fail forum builds and any dps build you make such is locust, haunt, zombie wall will work.

    Just as OP said, if you are bad, reroll or learn to play. I killed diablo on Inferno 3 weeks ago. If you can't pass Act 1 then you really need to quit the game or just question your IQ.
  • #4
    Quote from FuriousBalls

    Quote from Cruzlah

    How about before you start flaming people for complaining about a class, you give examples on how they are wrong. You can't just say dumb shit and then not give examples on how they are wrong. Since apparently lots of people need to learn to play, why don't you give us your build and the stats that you build for.


    Instead of OP, I will answer your question nicely.

    I'm clearing Act 3 and Act 4 for 20 days with EZ mode.

    I never used Bears, I never used fail forum builds and any dps build you make such is locust, haunt, zombie wall will work.

    Just as OP said, if you are bad, reroll or learn to play. I killed diablo on Inferno 3 weeks ago. If you can't pass Act 1 then you really need to quit the game or just question your IQ.


    DPS builds fails on hardcore *sigh* Not that HC is mandatory but you can't blame someone for not trying to find a build that does not depends on luck of not being one shotted by firechains vortex packs.

    Also, if the class has only one viable play style (DPS w/o using mana spenders) the class is broken. Some people can't see the difference between being good player and using a good build.
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #5
    Quote from italofoca

    DPS builds fails on hardcore


    It fails generally, you dont want to die at all now. Dps builds offer much higher risk at dying. While people say bears where good at act 3-4 inferno I never pulled it off on some monsters if I didnt pop spirit walk first, which is a big nono if you dont want to die if something goes wrong.
  • #6
    So, how much gold did you spend on the AH? Alternatively, how many 100's of hours have you played?

    EDIT: this was @FuriousBalls
  • #7
    Sure I'll feed the trolls....

    You need to understand that claiming our class is broken is FAR different from complaining that our class is underpowered.

    Here's the main beef most WDs have:

    * Mana is such a poor resource that it inhibits our choice in build. Unless you use a low resource spell (dart build) or go with vision quest... you can't really do much with a build because mana is so limiting.

    Is that saying that WDs are weak? We just want to have fun with the class and mana isn't very fun. Don't even get me started on being told this is a Pet class yet we aren't able to use Pets in Act 3/4 Inferno.
  • #8
    Quote from Bwox

    There are NUMEROUS different competitive builds to suit an array of different styles.


    *Citation Required

    Quote from Bwox

    WD's do great damage [...] and have some of the best cooldowns in the game (due to their different uses and relatively short cooldowns).


    I can think of some fairly compelling examples to the contrary. In-fact the WD has, afaik, more long cooldowns than other classes. In-fact VQ builds take advantage of them. I won't weigh in on whether or not that's good design or a clever bandaid.
  • #9
    Quote from FuriousBalls

    Quote from Cruzlah

    How about before you start flaming people for complaining about a class, you give examples on how they are wrong. You can't just say dumb shit and then not give examples on how they are wrong. Since apparently lots of people need to learn to play, why don't you give us your build and the stats that you build for.


    Instead of OP, I will answer your question nicely.

    I'm clearing Act 3 and Act 4 for 20 days with EZ mode.

    I never used Bears, I never used fail forum builds and any dps build you make such is locust, haunt, zombie wall will work.

    Just as OP said, if you are bad, reroll or learn to play. I killed diablo on Inferno 3 weeks ago. If you can't pass Act 1 then you really need to quit the game or just question your IQ.


    Just like with every other class it all depends on your gear in this game. Do you think you are so smart that you can call someone low IQ just because he does not have right gear?
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #10
    No, he called them low IQ because they don't realize that the problem is with their gear, build or play style, not with the WD class.

    To whoever whines about mana, if u go for a mana draining build (high mana cost skills or simply stacking attack speed), weapon can give 14 mana regen, offhand can give 11 mana regen, head can give 11 mana regen, and depeneding on the dps skills u use, there may be reduced mana cost on certain items for it. Base mana regen is just 20, so from gear alone u can double-to-tripple your mana regen, NOT taking Vision Quest into account.

    I'm able to clear pretty much every kind of elite pack in this game, I'm a full time engineer working 8-10 hours a day (so the time I spend in this game is a couple of hours every day and during weekend time), and I've spent 0 euros on RMAH, all I bought were items from gold AH with gold i made on my own, because that's how the game works.

    Besides the (expected) bugs every now and then, the game is not bad. Wake up and use your brains before the zombies come to eat it.
  • #11
    Quote from Findulidas

    Quote from italofoca

    DPS builds fails on hardcore


    It fails generally, you dont want to die at all now. Dps builds offer much higher risk at dying. While people say bears where good at act 3-4 inferno I never pulled it off on some monsters if I didnt pop spirit walk first, which is a big nono if you dont want to die if something goes wrong.


  • #12
    Quote from darlissa

    No, he called them low IQ because they don't realize that the problem is with their gear, build or play style, not with the WD class.

    To whoever whines about mana, if u go for a mana draining build (high mana cost skills or simply stacking attack speed), weapon can give 14 mana regen, offhand can give 11 mana regen, head can give 11 mana regen, and depeneding on the dps skills u use, there may be reduced mana cost on certain items for it. Base mana regen is just 20, so from gear alone u can double-to-tripple your mana regen, NOT taking Vision Quest into account.

    I'm able to clear pretty much every kind of elite pack in this game, I'm a full time engineer working 8-10 hours a day (so the time I spend in this game is a couple of hours every day and during weekend time), and I've spent 0 euros on RMAH, all I bought were items from gold AH with gold i made on my own, because that's how the game works.

    Besides the (expected) bugs every now and then, the game is not bad. Wake up and use your brains before the zombies come to eat it.


    If you get enough gear you can do almost anything in this game. I remember the "outrage" over the WD who killed the Butcher in 9 seconds. I remember the WD who one-shotted the Butcher with Pile On.

    But, please, tell me how that matters? Are people actually using Pile On for everyday use? Probably not.

    Is it possible to use Zombie Bears as your primary source of DPS without Vision Quest regardless of whether or not you have perfect mana regen on all your slots? Probably not.

    Every class can do some amazing things when they outgear content. That's not really up for debate as it's prettymuch common knowledge. The real question is - when we're not outgearing stuff, what exactly does a WD do better than everyone else? Control spells? OK. But control, in and of itself, doesn't kill things.

    The fact of the matter is that this is a game where every class has to have some skill in every facet of the game. We need to be much more well-rounded than we currently are, simply put.

    What bothers me about mana is subtle, but here goes.

    If you're a Wiz/DH/Monk you look to get the max out of your arcane power/hatred/spirit abilities. You also gain more use from those abilities by using a "primary" ability to regenerate your resource. I'd lump Barbs in here too, but most of them are ignoring fury right now, even though it does fit in the arcane power/hatred/spirit paradigm, I don't want an argument based on technicalities.

    Our system works such that our "primary" abilities still penalize our resource generation. Using Poison Darts while waiting for mana to regen so we can use, say, Zombie Bears, actually keeps us from using as many Zombie Bears as just standing there doing nothing.

    Whereas every other class (Barbs, in theory) would be using their FREE primary ability to do less damage, but still do damage, to attain max regeneration, for a WD to attain max regeneration their damage, quite literally, has to go to 0. It's really a stupid way to go about things and it should be fixed.

    But that brings about another issue: PtV & VQ. Almost every build I see has one or the other - PtV for low cost spells, VQ for high-cost spells. What this tells me is that the cost of abilities (both primary and non-primary) are simply out-of-whack. But, these exist because of our mana issues. Either we want to outright ignore mana as a resource and use PtV + darts, or we need to have huge amounts of it to sustain bears or bats. We are not using our resource anywhere near the same way as all the other resources were designed to be used.

    My proposition:

    Our primary abilities need to cost 0 mana. Use of a primary ability grants you 25% (value negotiable) of your mana/sec value as instant mana (if you have 20 mana/sec, using a primary ability grants you 5 mana).

    The size of our mana pools (before +max mana), or the costs of our non-primary spells, needs to be tweaked such that we can cast roughly 10-12 non-primary offensive spells before we need to regen mana. Zombie Bears, as an example, costs 140 mana per cast, so either we need around 1600 base mana, or their cost needs to come down to around 75 mana.

    Defensive spells should be mana neutral, meaning they should cost exactly what our base regen gives. This means that casting a defensive spell doesn't actually prevent you from casting more offensive spells (except for the casting animation), but it also means that, save for mana regen on gear, you're also not gaining mana by casting defensive spells. What is important here is that +max mana and +mana regen on gear should be treated as a BONUS and not as a necessity - I would say that for all classes for the record, it's fairly ridiculous that +max discipline gear is so necessary for DHs, that indicates an overall problem with that particular resource. What should happen is that +max mana should increase our burst potential and +mana regen should enable us to cast more of our "better" spells in lieu of some of our primary spells.

    Our spells should not necessarily have equal damage/mana ratios, but should have different enticing functionalities. Different range, different area of effect, stuff like the ooze rune for Poison Cloud. But the damage/mana ratio should be close. There shouldn't be a clear winner and clear loser based on damage and mana, is what I'm ultimately saying here.

    At the end of the day our primary spells should not be our biggest source of damage (I'm looking at you, PtV + Darts builds), but they should still support our resource system. We should be about more than just taking a bunch of CDs to make VQ work (and virtually ignoring a primary ability) or taking a bunch of CC and juicing up a primary with PtV. We should be selecting our skills to do what is best for us in combat, not to jury rig our resource system such that it's "good enough" to get the job done within some pretty tight parameters.

    But, I could be wrong!
    p400 :: 85.1k EK :: 2.38m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #13
    Quote from darlissa

    all I bought were items from gold AH with gold i made on my own, because that's how the game works.



    Republican spotted.
  • #14
    @shaggy

    You made a few good points, but from what I've read, people claim that the mana resource is broken, as in the class is not playable. And that is completely false. Sure, there aren't as many options as there could be, but I'd rather wait for the skill balance patch for quality of life changes and the improvement of weak abilities.

    As for primary skills consuming mana, I must say I like the idea, it's what makes WD resource different from other classes' resource. All other classes (I think) have resource generating (or resource free) abilities and resource spending abilities. They all have the option to ignore the resource system and go with the primary abilities, and so does the WD. The only difference is that, once the resource is depleted, the other classes want to squeeze in as many primary casts as possible, be it because they are free, or because they get more resources back, while the WD is getting less mana while spamming the primary ability and more mana while running / kiting. But this doesn't mean the system is broken or doesn't work. It is just different, and mind you, there are options to get free primary abilities, or even primary abilities that return mana on hit, if your play style involves more secondary skill casts. It just happens that those runes suck and need some buffs (just like the vast majority of the runes) but the idea is there, so let's just wait for 1.0.4 changes. As long as there are options to make it work, I'm fine with it.

    If you completely ignore the mana regen on gear AND don't take any passive that let's your mana regen go faster, then you might have problems. But I guess that's just not the way you're supposed to play the class / not the way the class was designed.
  • #15
    Quote from z10

    Quote from Findulidas

    Quote from italofoca

    DPS builds fails on hardcore


    It fails generally, you dont want to die at all now. Dps builds offer much higher risk at dying. While people say bears where good at act 3-4 inferno I never pulled it off on some monsters if I didnt pop spirit walk first, which is a big nono if you dont want to die if something goes wrong.





  • #16
    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from darlissa

    all I bought were items from gold AH with gold i made on my own, because that's how the game works.



    Republican spotted.

    :lol:
  • #17
    My problem with WD is not mana, cause i kind think that works. Running Act 3 using Dire Bats and an 2h weapon and only Spirit Attunement + Honored Guest is enough to keep my mana on.

    Imo what need to be fixed in the class:
    i. Pets should survive if you invest in 1 or 2 defensive affix (right now you need 4). I mean, right now you need HP regen, CC on Hit, Armor and All Resistance in every piece of gear. Good luck dealing damage with that ! Pets taking reduced damage from avoidables is another must have change (or else gimme the ability to micro my stuff so i can avoid.
    ii. WD need armor/resist bonuses like other classes. This is absolutly needed if you want to make tanky WD functional. And how's one suppose to use spells like Toads and Charger without being tanky ?
    iii. Buff healing runes please. Hegde Magic is a joke wtf


    Republican spotted.


    Lefty spotted
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #18
    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Quote from FuriousBalls

    Quote from Cruzlah

    How about before you start flaming people for complaining about a class, you give examples on how they are wrong. You can't just say dumb shit and then not give examples on how they are wrong. Since apparently lots of people need to learn to play, why don't you give us your build and the stats that you build for.


    Instead of OP, I will answer your question nicely.

    I'm clearing Act 3 and Act 4 for 20 days with EZ mode.

    I never used Bears, I never used fail forum builds and any dps build you make such is locust, haunt, zombie wall will work.

    Just as OP said, if you are bad, reroll or learn to play. I killed diablo on Inferno 3 weeks ago. If you can't pass Act 1 then you really need to quit the game or just question your IQ.


    Just like with every other class it all depends on your gear in this game. Do you think you are so smart that you can call someone low IQ just because he does not have right gear?


    I m calling people low IQ because they don't understand what this game was ALWAYS about. If half of you have played Diablo 2 for at least 2 hours, you would know that Diablo was always about the gear and doing something different.

    I killed Diablo 3 weeks ago with crit build, flaming fart, locust, wall of zombies, haunt and grasp of the dead.

    People do not realize that their build should be formed upon their gear, play style and their group (if they are not playing solo).

    Someone previously asked me how much gold I've spent on my gear. Since I cleaned inferno almost when game was out, I didn't have much gold to spend. I bought what I was missing and what I found an upgrade for me.

    People are playing with one or two builds because they found it on Google ? Zombie bears build ? Are u F kidding me ? That's not even a build. Dropping a totem down and holding a button for few seconds is something you enjoy and find useful / good ?

    Test out different builds and try to get upgrades on your gear before you spit on the class which is probably most fun in game.
    Sorry if I offended anyone but I m really getting sick of topics such is "class is broken" just because someone is too bad or has no gear.

    No one cares if you are casual or hardcore. You can't expect to progress the way I did, I have a lot of time to play and I m not proud with it. I wish I have a better job then sitting home, doing freelance projects, sadly I don't. Progress, farm and you will get the things done, otherwise don't open useless topics just to find similar QQ followers like yourselves to support you in spitting some class.
  • #19
    Quote from italofoca

    My problem with WD is not mana, cause i kind think that works. Running Act 3 using Dire Bats and an 2h weapon and only Spirit Attunement + Honored Guest is enough to keep my mana on.

    Imo what need to be fixed in the class:
    i. Pets should survive if you invest in 1 or 2 defensive affix (right now you need 4). I mean, right now you need HP regen, CC on Hit, Armor and All Resistance in every piece of gear. Good luck dealing damage with that ! Pets taking reduced damage from avoidables is another must have change (or else gimme the ability to micro my stuff so i can avoid.
    ii. WD need armor/resist bonuses like other classes. This is absolutly needed if you want to make tanky WD functional. And how's one suppose to use spells like Toads and Charger without being tanky ?
    iii. Buff healing runes please. Hegde Magic is a joke wtf


    I mostly agree with this. While I would, personally, like to see mana replaced with something more along the lines of Blood Ritual (now that would make the class different), I don't think the problem is in the mana. The problem is, imo, in the costs of skills and terribleness of the pets.

    Pets: the issue here, again imo, is that Blizzard wants them to be tired to the WD's defensive stats (beyond the obvious that they just don't have enough HP/defense). As an example - if you need to stack defensive stats to get your pets strong, then why do you need pets? You just stacked defensive stats. I always thought the idea for pets was that you could gain survivability, independent of gear, by sacrificing some skills. Basically, pets should be more like CC builds, in that you use that skill to control monsters to some extent. Sure, Blizz could just skew it so that a moderatly defensive build makes your pets able to survive a dirty glance, but then a Tank-Specced WD could have immortal pets. IMO, they should scale based on your lvl vs the monsters level, with a little based on overall gear quality (cause we're capped at 60, that way a fresh into Inferno WD doesn't have pets that can survive Act 4).

    Attack Skills: Basically I just don't think they're balanced that well. Either Splinters does too much damage, or just about every other skill doesn't do enough. And the way mana works, I think they need to adjust costs (and VQ, sadly), so that you're doing a big attack, and then dodging a bit. During said time you have the choice of doing extra damage with your primaries, or saving up a bit faster for the big attacks. And then CC's shouldn't cost signifcant amounts of mana
  • #20
    Quote from italofoca

    Lefty spotted


    Why yes, I am left-handed. How did you know?
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