So the first time I saw the WD's art, I knew I wanted to play one.
Then, in the preview videos, he started to summon a bunch of pets all the time... I've never been a big fan of pets in RPG's, since the AI controlling them has always either been manual+broken (like pets in wow) or, just plain dumb (huge delays before the pet helps you kill something, contributes almost no dmg, etc), so im curious...
"Can the Witch Doctor play as a pure caster, without a pet, and remain viable/competitive when compared to a pet-focused build?"
It's probably way too early to tell, but I would love any feedback from those of you who have been lucky enough to play the demo's that are floating around at these gaming conventions, or even just pure speculation :-)
Would you be mad if a 'petless' WD build can compete with a 'petcentric' setup? Does the WD simply lack enough direct spells that they just have to suck it up and summon anyways?
Im trying to decide between playing a wizard and wd as my first toon, and if the WD is chained to his pets, my choice will be a lot easier :-)
Anyone that has played a demo at a convention (including myself) will not be able to confirm the legitimacy of non-pet WD's on that singular basis. This is because we played closed levels on one difficulty setting, and even then the gear, drops, and everything else was custom-tailored for each particular demo.
Bashiok or someone else might have talked about it, but simply on the basis that this will be a long-enduring multiplayer game I will say that someone, inevitably, will create a functional WD that does not use pets. Even if it's not possible in vanilla, launch Diablo III, it will be after patches and expansions, I believe.
I'm sure it will be viable. They have made it so wizards actually can be melee unlike the sad excuse they had in D2(sorcs). With all the "build" potentials I'm sure you can make many approaches work.
From personal preference if I wanted magic direct damage focus I'd just go to a class that theoretically specializes in that i.e. the wizard.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Necromancer didn't require pets to be powerful... neither will WD. Nuff said.
That's what im hoping for :-) I think the WD (strictly on a IMHO level) has nicer art then the wizard, and I love the idea of killing big groups by spreading around some nasty diseases and watching the hordes die away around me. I just don't like the idea of slowing down that fun more by having to bring out a bunch of pets first, waste GCD's (LOL!) diseasing-them-up, and watching a cheesy AI-script run them around attacking probably the most useless possible targets at any given moment
ugh, plus the pathing issues... pets always have the worst movement, totally kills any immersion.
Anyone that has played a demo at a convention (including myself) will not be able to confirm the legitimacy of non-pet WD's on that singular basis. This is because we played closed levels on one difficulty setting, and even then the gear, drops, and everything else was custom-tailored for each particular demo.
Bashiok or someone else might have talked about it, but simply on the basis that this will be a long-enduring multiplayer game I will say that someone, inevitably, will create a functional WD that does not use pets. Even if it's not possible in vanilla, launch Diablo III, it will be after patches and expansions, I believe.
Well thats good to know at least :-) I guess I can only speculate/hope for the time being then hehe ;-) Hopefully the beta will hold some solid answers for us
I'm sure it will be viable. They have made it so wizards actually can be melee unlike the sad excuse they had in D2(sorcs). With all the "build" potentials I'm sure you can make many approaches work.
From personal preference if I wanted magic direct damage focus I'd just go to a class that theoretically specializes in that i.e. the wizard.
Exactly, if it turns out that the WD is really only viable mass-summoning all the time, the Wizard is my fallback plan
Remember that many of the Witch Doctors "Summons" act more like living spells than a standard summon.
Also, Rune effects are sure to change the pure summon abbilities in some pretty interesting ways. Sure, there will be the standard "add fire damage" or "increases number of summons" or that kind of thing, but there likely could be runes that turn the Summon skills into more of a diriect damage spell. Who knows!
I guess my point is to remember the WD doesn't have just 25ish skills, but more like 125.
The witch doctor will easily be able to fight without pets. He/she has horrify, spirt walk, & confusion for crowd control. Then he has plenty of damage skills to clear the screen like locust swarm, spirit barrage, & acid cloud. The witch doctor could act like a wizard by not using pets at all just fine. I think the class will play better if you use the pets, though.
he doesn't need pets. his only real pets are the 3 dogs. most of his stuff are spells. he seems sort of like a cleric in d&d minus the healing. pets in multiplayer are really annoying. i will probably play a petless wd.
I plan on using a mix of zombie wall, mass confuse and some type of aoe spell like the fire bomb type spell.
Zombie wall is my favourite for sure thou!
I think it'll be very possible! I sure hope so, anyway. I've been wanting to make a pure fire WD for a long time now! I'm also hoping I'll be able to make a pure "Soul Stealer" dark caster type of build, with lots of life leeching and purple/blackish spell effects.
As far as I can tell, the dev team seems to be putting a lot of effort in making various builds not only possible but also worthwile for each class. I wouldn't be worried for the viability of pet-free WD builds.
Also, OP has voiced the concern that summons tend to choose dumb targets, but if I recall correctly, they've worked pretty hard on improving pet AI. I remember watching a Blizzcon panel where they took a few minutes to talk about it. That was 1-2 years ago, they might have improved it even further as we speak.
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My Wizard build inspired by Mario Kart items 3 Green Shells / Bananas / Red shell / Lightning Bolt / Fake Item Box / Blue Shell
In addition to the AoE and crowd control spells everyone has mentioned, he also some awesome passive skills for increasing damage. You could have aggression (increase attack 20%), plagued (increase animal and plague damage 20%), and rituals (increase damage by 15% of health). With all of those damage bonuses on something like locust swarm or plague of toads combined with a crowd control spell like mass confusion, I think that the witch doctor will definitely be able to hold his own as a caster.
I think the class will play better if you use the pets, though.
Thats the arguement im really most worried about :-) If a pet-less build is not as viable as one focused on pets, most players will use pets, and players who don't stand to be criticized for not bringing their A-Game to the table :-)
I have a lot of hope after reading the active and passive skills list on this site :-) *Fingers crossed*
I think it will be possible, but a lot harder. Most of the WD spells right now beneficts from enemies standing still, and they only do that while hitting your pets. Maybe a certain rune/passive skill combination turn it viable (like cheap / very resistent wall of zombies).
Using the Active/Passive skill lists, below is what I think I would try at the start, assuming things stay mostly the same and skills in the preview videos are more or less the same :-)
Active Skills Wall of Zombies - Requires Level: 27 - Zombies erupt from the earth and attack nearby enemies. (For an AOE snare/slow/melee-range dmg) Grasp of the Dead - Requires Level: 3 - Hands reach out, slowing enemies and dealing damage per second for X seconds. (Another slow for staying at range if zombiewall is on CD, too expensive, already out, etc etc) Firebomb - Requires Level: 11 - Lob an explosive skull that deals Fire damage to all enemies caught in the explosion. (Core Nuke Ability) Soul Harvest - Requires Level: 14 - Feed on the life force of nearby enemies. Increases spell damage for X seconds for every nearby enemy. (For the SP Buff, and providing another option for when things go wrong, and mobs are in your melee range) Locust Swarm - Requires Level: 19 - A plague of locusts assaults the Witch Doctor's enemies, dealing damage per second and jumping to additional nearby targets. (AOE DOT, good option for when you need to do some damage but have to start moving away) Spirit Barrage - Requires Level: 21 - A multitude of spirit bolts bombard enemies in the targeted area, dealing Arcane damage. (Already have fire dmg/and disease dmg in the build, this provides a third school (arcane) to help with resistances)(Could likely also switch easily to Acid Cloud if you prefer poison to arcane, or just like the graphic more :P)
Passive Abilites: Aggression - Requires Level: 12 - Increases attack by 20%. (20% bonus attack sounds HUGE) Superior Skill - Requires Level: 12 - Increases precision by 20% (Increased Crit chance, solid increase to overall damage, although probably behind Aggression in terms of total value) Spirit Vessel - Requires Level: 6 - Health Globes provide 10% of maximum Mana when picked up. (For a way to get mana back on a regular basis, and giving Health globes added value)
I REALLY feel like with the build above, you could go a lot of different ways with the 6th active skill. Like I mentioned you could easily switch to Acid Cloud if you want a different type of damaging ability, or, if you are doing PVP you might want to pick up another CC to help harass opponents. Hell you could even pick up a pet just to use as a quick distraction/dmg ability, and since you have locust swarm in the build you can empower that pet if wanted.
The 3rd passive skill I think could also go a number of different ways. Don't want to bother with health globes at all? Pick up Mana Regeneration (level 3, 2% mana regen every second). You could also switch out Superior Skill, and take Rituals if it turns out to be stronger for your playstyle. Rituals of Blood and Mind and Body could also be used instead of Superior Skill/Spirit Vessel, causing you to lose the 20% precision buff, but gain significant regen both from mana savings upfront on spell cost, and the 20% hp regen which is basically just another mana pool).
God im going to love this game :-) So many options! What would you guys roll with for a Pet-Free build?
The witch doctor will easily be able to fight without pets. He/she has horrify, spirt walk, & confusion for crowd control. Then he has plenty of damage skills to clear the screen like locust swarm, spirit barrage, & acid cloud. The witch doctor could act like a wizard by not using pets at all just fine. I think the class will play better if you use the pets, though.
For the record, the "sacrifice" spell on the arena videos seem to deal as much damage, if not more, than Firebomb. Multiply that by 3 pets and you have a spell 3 times more damaging than your bread and butter one, albeit harder to hit.
On the DH gameplay video from last year, you can see the WD recovering mana from using Sacrifice, so I'd also assume his pets will have uses other than just a distraction/dps increase
Focusing on his pets isn't necessary, but I'm sure it's going to be pretty powerful, even for PvP.
Using the Active/Passive skill lists, below is what I think I would try at the start, assuming things stay mostly the same and skills in the preview videos are more or less the same :-)
Active Skills Wall of Zombies - Requires Level: 27 - Zombies erupt from the earth and attack nearby enemies. (For an AOE snare/slow/melee-range dmg) Grasp of the Dead - Requires Level: 3 - Hands reach out, slowing enemies and dealing damage per second for X seconds. (Another slow for staying at range if zombiewall is on CD, too expensive, already out, etc etc) Firebomb - Requires Level: 11 - Lob an explosive skull that deals Fire damage to all enemies caught in the explosion. (Core Nuke Ability) Soul Harvest - Requires Level: 14 - Feed on the life force of nearby enemies. Increases spell damage for X seconds for every nearby enemy. (For the SP Buff, and providing another option for when things go wrong, and mobs are in your melee range) Locust Swarm - Requires Level: 19 - A plague of locusts assaults the Witch Doctor's enemies, dealing damage per second and jumping to additional nearby targets. (AOE DOT, good option for when you need to do some damage but have to start moving away) Spirit Barrage - Requires Level: 21 - A multitude of spirit bolts bombard enemies in the targeted area, dealing Arcane damage. (Already have fire dmg/and disease dmg in the build, this provides a third school (arcane) to help with resistances)(Could likely also switch easily to Acid Cloud if you prefer poison to arcane, or just like the graphic more :P)
Passive Abilites: Aggression - Requires Level: 12 - Increases attack by 20%. (20% bonus attack sounds HUGE) Superior Skill - Requires Level: 12 - Increases precision by 20% (Increased Crit chance, solid increase to overall damage, although probably behind Aggression in terms of total value) Rituals - Requires Level: 24 - Increases damage by 15% of HP. (Since im not taking Rituals of blood, my HP should be full most of the time if im played correctly, using my CC. 15% dmg boost to all abilites) Spirit Vessel - Requires Level: 6 - Health Globes provide 10% of maximum Mana when picked up. (For a way to get mana back on a regular basis, and giving Health globes added value to topping off and keeping my dmg buff from Rituals up.)
I REALLY feel like with the build above, you could go a lot of different ways with the 6th active skill. Like I mentioned you could easily switch to Acid Cloud if you want a different type of damaging ability, or, if you are doing PVP you might want to pick up another CC to help harass opponents. Hell you could even pick up a pet just to use as a quick distraction/dmg ability, and since you have locust swarm in the build you can empower that pet if wanted.
The 4th passive skill I think could also go a number of different ways. Don't want to bother with health globes at all? Pick up Mana Regeneration (level 3, 2% mana regen every second). You could also switch out Rituals, and take Rituals of Blood and Mind and Body (you lose the 15% buff from Rituals, but gain significant regen both from mana savings upfront on spell cost, and the 20% hp regen which is basically just another mana pool).
God im going to love this game :-) So many options! What would you guys roll with for a Pet-Free build?
Aren't there only slots for three passive abilities not four? or are you just going to select 3 of those 4?
I plan on using a mix of zombie wall, mass confuse and some type of aoe spell like the fire bomb type spell.
Zombie wall is my favourite for sure thou!
I am also looking forward to Zombie Wall. My favorite spell I seen so far.
The Witch Doctor has tons of aoe / control spells. I myself will have as many summons as I can and then at least one spell that does insane damage.
Hell you could even pick up a pet just to use as a quick distraction/dmg ability, and since you have locust swarm in the build you can empower that pet if wanted.
Empowering summons was removed and turned into the skill rune system I believe.
As for my build the first will be a trial to explore what I want, the second will be a spirit Doc
-Haunt
-Spirit Walk
-Soul Harvest
-Spirit Barrage
-Mass confusion
-horrify, big bad voodoo, Poison Dart, or Acid Cloud. (have to see what fits and what runes do before I choose what this will be. Might even take fire bomb here.)
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
Aren't there only slots for three passive abilities not four? or are you just going to select 3 of those 4?
Good catch dude :-) Apparently in the middle of the night, I try to get more then I am allowed :-)
In that case I would imagine I'd have to drop one of my DPS boosts, likely Rituals or Superior Skill, depending on which comes out ahead. I have a feeling Superior Skill might edge out a bit ahead, but beacuse it has 100% uptime, whereas Rituals is subject to your HP at any given moment. Won't know for sure until we see the game though
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Then, in the preview videos, he started to summon a bunch of pets all the time... I've never been a big fan of pets in RPG's, since the AI controlling them has always either been manual+broken (like pets in wow) or, just plain dumb (huge delays before the pet helps you kill something, contributes almost no dmg, etc), so im curious...
"Can the Witch Doctor play as a pure caster, without a pet, and remain viable/competitive when compared to a pet-focused build?"
It's probably way too early to tell, but I would love any feedback from those of you who have been lucky enough to play the demo's that are floating around at these gaming conventions, or even just pure speculation :-)
Would you be mad if a 'petless' WD build can compete with a 'petcentric' setup? Does the WD simply lack enough direct spells that they just have to suck it up and summon anyways?
Im trying to decide between playing a wizard and wd as my first toon, and if the WD is chained to his pets, my choice will be a lot easier :-)
Bashiok or someone else might have talked about it, but simply on the basis that this will be a long-enduring multiplayer game I will say that someone, inevitably, will create a functional WD that does not use pets. Even if it's not possible in vanilla, launch Diablo III, it will be after patches and expansions, I believe.
From personal preference if I wanted magic direct damage focus I'd just go to a class that theoretically specializes in that i.e. the wizard.
That's what im hoping for :-) I think the WD (strictly on a IMHO level) has nicer art then the wizard, and I love the idea of killing big groups by spreading around some nasty diseases and watching the hordes die away around me. I just don't like the idea of slowing down that fun more by having to bring out a bunch of pets first, waste GCD's (LOL!) diseasing-them-up, and watching a cheesy AI-script run them around attacking probably the most useless possible targets at any given moment
ugh, plus the pathing issues... pets always have the worst movement, totally kills any immersion.
Well thats good to know at least :-) I guess I can only speculate/hope for the time being then hehe ;-) Hopefully the beta will hold some solid answers for us
Exactly, if it turns out that the WD is really only viable mass-summoning all the time, the Wizard is my fallback plan
Remember that many of the Witch Doctors "Summons" act more like living spells than a standard summon.
Also, Rune effects are sure to change the pure summon abbilities in some pretty interesting ways. Sure, there will be the standard "add fire damage" or "increases number of summons" or that kind of thing, but there likely could be runes that turn the Summon skills into more of a diriect damage spell. Who knows!
I guess my point is to remember the WD doesn't have just 25ish skills, but more like 125.
Zombie wall is my favourite for sure thou!
As far as I can tell, the dev team seems to be putting a lot of effort in making various builds not only possible but also worthwile for each class. I wouldn't be worried for the viability of pet-free WD builds.
Also, OP has voiced the concern that summons tend to choose dumb targets, but if I recall correctly, they've worked pretty hard on improving pet AI. I remember watching a Blizzcon panel where they took a few minutes to talk about it. That was 1-2 years ago, they might have improved it even further as we speak.
3 Green Shells / Bananas / Red shell / Lightning Bolt / Fake Item Box / Blue Shell
Thats the arguement im really most worried about :-) If a pet-less build is not as viable as one focused on pets, most players will use pets, and players who don't stand to be criticized for not bringing their A-Game to the table :-)
I have a lot of hope after reading the active and passive skills list on this site :-) *Fingers crossed*
Active Skills
Wall of Zombies - Requires Level: 27 - Zombies erupt from the earth and attack nearby enemies. (For an AOE snare/slow/melee-range dmg)
Grasp of the Dead - Requires Level: 3 - Hands reach out, slowing enemies and dealing damage per second for X seconds. (Another slow for staying at range if zombiewall is on CD, too expensive, already out, etc etc)
Firebomb - Requires Level: 11 - Lob an explosive skull that deals Fire damage to all enemies caught in the explosion. (Core Nuke Ability)
Soul Harvest - Requires Level: 14 - Feed on the life force of nearby enemies. Increases spell damage for X seconds for every nearby enemy. (For the SP Buff, and providing another option for when things go wrong, and mobs are in your melee range)
Locust Swarm - Requires Level: 19 - A plague of locusts assaults the Witch Doctor's enemies, dealing damage per second and jumping to additional nearby targets. (AOE DOT, good option for when you need to do some damage but have to start moving away)
Spirit Barrage - Requires Level: 21 - A multitude of spirit bolts bombard enemies in the targeted area, dealing Arcane damage. (Already have fire dmg/and disease dmg in the build, this provides a third school (arcane) to help with resistances) (Could likely also switch easily to Acid Cloud if you prefer poison to arcane, or just like the graphic more :P)
Passive Abilites:
Aggression - Requires Level: 12 - Increases attack by 20%. (20% bonus attack sounds HUGE)
Superior Skill - Requires Level: 12 - Increases precision by 20% (Increased Crit chance, solid increase to overall damage, although probably behind Aggression in terms of total value)
Spirit Vessel - Requires Level: 6 - Health Globes provide 10% of maximum Mana when picked up. (For a way to get mana back on a regular basis, and giving Health globes added value)
I REALLY feel like with the build above, you could go a lot of different ways with the 6th active skill. Like I mentioned you could easily switch to Acid Cloud if you want a different type of damaging ability, or, if you are doing PVP you might want to pick up another CC to help harass opponents. Hell you could even pick up a pet just to use as a quick distraction/dmg ability, and since you have locust swarm in the build you can empower that pet if wanted.
The 3rd passive skill I think could also go a number of different ways. Don't want to bother with health globes at all? Pick up Mana Regeneration (level 3, 2% mana regen every second). You could also switch out Superior Skill, and take Rituals if it turns out to be stronger for your playstyle. Rituals of Blood and Mind and Body could also be used instead of Superior Skill/Spirit Vessel, causing you to lose the 20% precision buff, but gain significant regen both from mana savings upfront on spell cost, and the 20% hp regen which is basically just another mana pool).
God im going to love this game :-) So many options! What would you guys roll with for a Pet-Free build?
On the DH gameplay video from last year, you can see the WD recovering mana from using Sacrifice, so I'd also assume his pets will have uses other than just a distraction/dps increase
Focusing on his pets isn't necessary, but I'm sure it's going to be pretty powerful, even for PvP.
Aren't there only slots for three passive abilities not four? or are you just going to select 3 of those 4?
I am also looking forward to Zombie Wall. My favorite spell I seen so far.
The Witch Doctor has tons of aoe / control spells. I myself will have as many summons as I can and then at least one spell that does insane damage.
Empowering summons was removed and turned into the skill rune system I believe.
As for my build the first will be a trial to explore what I want, the second will be a spirit Doc
-Haunt
-Spirit Walk
-Soul Harvest
-Spirit Barrage
-Mass confusion
-horrify, big bad voodoo, Poison Dart, or Acid Cloud. (have to see what fits and what runes do before I choose what this will be. Might even take fire bomb here.)
Good catch dude :-) Apparently in the middle of the night, I try to get more then I am allowed :-)
In that case I would imagine I'd have to drop one of my DPS boosts, likely Rituals or Superior Skill, depending on which comes out ahead. I have a feeling Superior Skill might edge out a bit ahead, but beacuse it has 100% uptime, whereas Rituals is subject to your HP at any given moment. Won't know for sure until we see the game though