For those of you who haven't seen the changes to these two sets announced at Blizzcon, here they are:
Sunwuko Set:
2P: Casting Cyclone Strike, Exploding Palm, Lashing Tail Kick, Tempest Rush or Wave of Light causes a decoy to spawn that taunts nearby enemies and then explodes for 1000% weapon damage.
4P: Enemies hit by the decoy explosion take 500% from your Cyclone Strike, Exploding Palm, Lashing Tail Kick, Tempest Rush or Wave of Light abilities for 3 seconds.
Raiment Set:
2P: The damage of your Spirit Generators is increased by 100%.
4P: The third hit from your Spirit Generators grants a charge of Dashing Strike and the amount of charges Dashing Strike can store is increased by 5.
6P: After using Dashing Strike, you Dashing Strike shocks all nearby enemies for 3000% weapon damage as Lightning.
What I want to discuss is my disappointment in the "missed opportunity" in the Raiment 6p. With both of these sets, regardless of whether they are better now or better on live, the fact remains that the new sunwuko no longer seems to be Holy damage. I think it's safe to assume the damage type will be based on whichever of the listed skills you use. So if you use Cyclone strike - Implosion, the clone will probably deal fire damage. At least, I hope this is the case.
This makes me feel like they really hampered the new raiment kit (again, regardless of how powerful these new set bonuses might be) by still making the 6P bonus do lightning damage. It's such a waste. Monk now have a dashing strike rune for every one of their supported elements, so why not just base the 6P damage on the DS rune selected?
End game is already hampered by highly limiting build. Opening up the possibility to choose what kind of element you want to use really helps that. I'm glad they did that for Sunwuko, but pretty disappointed they missed that (imo, pretty obvious) opportunity.
People do assume the SWK set will proc a clone of the element you used on your skill. However, there are a lot of skills that "deal x% weapon damage" without mentioning a damage type, and are physical (look at tempest rush without rune for an example). In the past (vanilla), and I think this still works for followers, if no damage type was given but it said "x% weapon damage", it would actually take the damage type of your weapon. So the change to SWK might not be close to what people expect, we will have to wait for this.
For the Raiment set, the full name does indeed include "storms", so I would expect lightning.
Also, there are still early changes. There will be a PTR. If the lightning is an issue, they will fix it. So I wouldn't worry about it.
However, anyone who thinks "storms" only invlove lightning, has never been in one. Snowstorms, fire-storms, sandstorms. If there's a thousand of them, some of them are bound to be a little different.
Regardless of the outcome, wouldn't you guys agree that making a whole 6 piece set based on one element is a bit of a waste, and only further limits build diversity?
However, anyone who thinks "storms" only invlove lightning, has never been in one. Snowstorms, fire-storms, sandstorms. If there's a thousand of them, some of them are bound to be a little different.
Regardless of the outcome, wouldn't you guys agree that making a whole 6 piece set based on one element is a bit of a waste, and only further limits build diversity?
The storm might be related to language. If someone says storm, I think lightning/thunder. Checking wikipedia, there are indeed a lot of storms. However, the way the article is written and names them, makes me think "storm" is used for lightning/thunder, while the other kinds of storms are named for what they are: ice storm, snow storm, fire storm, ... Anyway, storm might be a new skill in the expansion with different elemental types
Back on topic. I don't think making a 6 piece set around 1 element is a problem. With the 2.0 launch, they said they want us to choose, with the elemental damage being 1 way to do that. I even think it is sad other sets (Raekor, Archon) do change to whatever you have stacked to most. Cold/fire dh shows mixing elemental types is not the worst thing. But the main problem at this time is, in my opinion, the limited selection to go with. Would it be bad to have SWK=Holy, Raiment=Lightning, Set3=Cold, ...? You do see they are adding more sets already, and I hope they will give options for the elements in the way of the set we pick, not 1 set fits all. For that ofcourse, the sets should be equally powerful, with equally "unofficial set pieces" (bombardier, vile wards, lut socks, ...)
Would it be bad to have SWK=Holy, Raiment=Lightning, Set3=Cold, ...?
I get what you're saying, but honestly, I'd prefer SWK=playstyle 1, Raiment=playstyle 2, Set3=playstyle 3. And still have all of them open to whatever element you want to build around. To me, that just opens a lot more potential for build variety.
Currently, the clones spawn to the nearest enemy within 15 yard. They changed that because they were to random, but does not say on the set (can't find reference). I would expect that to stay (not sure), but 15 yard is a small distance.
Also, imo Raiment should be based on sandstorms, causing sand damage. "Fills underwear of nearby enemies with fine sand, causing irritation and 50% slowed movement speed until they take a shower"
Now this guy knows what I mean. Sand damage is the new black.
Would it be bad to have SWK=Holy, Raiment=Lightning, Set3=Cold, ...?
I get what you're saying, but honestly, I'd prefer SWK=playstyle 1, Raiment=playstyle 2, Set3=playstyle 3. And still have all of them open to whatever element you want to build around. To me, that just opens a lot more potential for build variety.
That would be another option, but would not work with what the set does now. It would work if it would buff/change a skill or add synergy with something. What it does now (raiment 6 piece) is almost like a huge thunderfury proc after dashing strike. What you are asking for is to make TF proc with the damage type you did. It almost is a skill on its own, with it's own element.
Would it be bad to have SWK=Holy, Raiment=Lightning, Set3=Cold, ...?
I get what you're saying, but honestly, I'd prefer SWK=playstyle 1, Raiment=playstyle 2, Set3=playstyle 3. And still have all of them open to whatever element you want to build around. To me, that just opens a lot more potential for build variety.
That would be another option, but would not work with what the set does now. It would work if it would buff/change a skill or add synergy with something. What it does now (raiment 6 piece) is almost like a huge thunderfury proc after dashing strike. What you are asking for is to make TF proc with the damage type you did. It almost is a skill on its own, with it's own element.
Exactly! That'd be awesome!
In essence, what I'd motivate for is for all sets to be like Akkhan, Immortal King, or even Innas. In the sense that it gives an amazing boost, but doesn't bottleneck you into a tiny space for options, essentially saying "use this skill and this element, nothing else" not only limiting your gear choices, but also which skill runes are available. Akkhan is a great example, because it makes akarat's champion super potent, but everything else you want to put on your skillbar or the kind of element you want to play with, is purely the player's choice.
In my opinion, a set should give great power, but not at the expense of diversity.
TL;DR: It's bad enough that every high end character has the exact same 6 piece set. Let's at least give them the option to choose the 6 skills they have, regardless of which element they choose.
Would it be bad to have SWK=Holy, Raiment=Lightning, Set3=Cold, ...?
I get what you're saying, but honestly, I'd prefer SWK=playstyle 1, Raiment=playstyle 2, Set3=playstyle 3. And still have all of them open to whatever element you want to build around. To me, that just opens a lot more potential for build variety.
That would be another option, but would not work with what the set does now. It would work if it would buff/change a skill or add synergy with something. What it does now (raiment 6 piece) is almost like a huge thunderfury proc after dashing strike. What you are asking for is to make TF proc with the damage type you did. It almost is a skill on its own, with it's own element.
Exactly! That'd be awesome!
In essence, what I'd motivate for is for all sets to be like Akkhan, Immortal King, or even Innas. In the sense that it gives an amazing boost, but doesn't bottleneck you into a tiny space for options, essentially saying "use this skill and this element, nothing else" not only limiting your gear choices, but also which skill runes are available. Akkhan is a great example, because it makes akarat's champion super potent, but everything else you want to put on your skillbar or the kind of element you want to play with, is purely the player's choice.
In my opinion, a set should give great power, but not at the expense of diversity.
TL;DR: It's bad enough that every high end character has the exact same 6 piece set. Let's at least give them the option to choose the 6 skills they have, regardless of which element they choose.
While I do agree, there will always be 1 build that's stronger than any other (until the next thing is found, I think about nirvana monk in vanilla that came after more than a year, or the lightning DH now).
In that sense, since there are limited to no items with only 1 possible elemental type, picking whatever elemental damage you want is easy (for the damage buff). This will result in everyone with that set to go to the same element and skill (again, until some new build/synergy is found), and that one build will outperform the other sets. Making the element a free option would not fix this problem (would you pick bad skills because you can buff any elemental damage?), might make a specific set even "more better" than the others than it is now.
In that sense, since there are limited to no items with only 1 possible elemental type, picking whatever elemental damage you want is easy (for the damage buff). This will result in everyone with that set to go to the same element and skill (again, until some new build/synergy is found), and that one build will outperform the other sets. Making the element a free option would not fix this problem (would you pick bad skills because you can buff any elemental damage?), might make a specific set even "more better" than the others than it is now.
I fully agree. There will always be a superior build in a game like this. It's almost unavoidable. That's not exactly what I'm referring to though. At this stage, non set builds are almost always waaaay under set builds. I'm not asking to build my monk to be in the top 10. I just want to have the freedom to say "hey, I love the way the Raiment set plays, and I love cold damage" Bam, that's my build. I get to use a set of items blizzard put plenty of effort into, and also get to choose how I utilize that set.
Sure, if there were well balanced sets for every element for every class, that could also work. But I'd still always prefer being able to choose, depending on what I prefer, instead of the set telling me I have 1 choice and 1 choice only.
I get that it's purely a matter of opinion, and I'm sure tons of people would disagree with me. Fact of the matter is simple... Balance isn't the aim here, having set items which opens up builds instead of limiting them is.
This makes me feel like they really hampered the new raiment kit (again, regardless of how powerful these new set bonuses might be) by still making the 6P bonus do lightning damage. It's such a waste. Monk now have a dashing strike rune for every one of their supported elements, so why not just base the 6P damage on the DS rune selected?
End game is already hampered by highly limiting build. Opening up the possibility to choose what kind of element you want to use really helps that. I'm glad they did that for Sunwuko, but pretty disappointed they missed that (imo, pretty obvious) opportunity.
Thoughts?
Raiment is thematically a lightning set. It does lightning damage for the same reason Firebird's does fire. Fortunately lightning isn't hosed in the skill department.
As time goes on there will be more 6P sets. Relax.
In that sense, since there are limited to no items with only 1 possible elemental type, picking whatever elemental damage you want is easy (for the damage buff). This will result in everyone with that set to go to the same element and skill (again, until some new build/synergy is found), and that one build will outperform the other sets. Making the element a free option would not fix this problem (would you pick bad skills because you can buff any elemental damage?), might make a specific set even "more better" than the others than it is now.
I fully agree. There will always be a superior build in a game like this. It's almost unavoidable. That's not exactly what I'm referring to though. At this stage, non set builds are almost always waaaay under set builds. I'm not asking to build my monk to be in the top 10. I just want to have the freedom to say "hey, I love the way the Raiment set plays, and I love cold damage" Bam, that's my build. I get to use a set of items blizzard put plenty of effort into, and also get to choose how I utilize that set.
Sure, if there were well balanced sets for every element for every class, that could also work. But I'd still always prefer being able to choose, depending on what I prefer, instead of the set telling me I have 1 choice and 1 choice only.
I get that it's purely a matter of opinion, and I'm sure tons of people would disagree with me. Fact of the matter is simple... Balance isn't the aim here, having set items which opens up builds instead of limiting them is.
Ok, I get what you are saying, but lets put it to the test. If you would go for a fun build, not the best, it means you are probably not doing greater rifts with that. If not greater rifts, you are doing T6. SWK build is best build around now. But there are (at least that I know of) 2 other viable t6 builds: raiment ping ping lightning, and a physical build based around the seasonal fist weapon (no set needed, inna's would help to build gem stacks). Did you, after you got your SWK set, try or use any of those? I even heard they might be faster for t6 than SWK (I didn't try so no idea).
Ok, I get what you are saying, but lets put it to the test. If you would go for a fun build, not the best, it means you are probably not doing greater rifts with that. If not greater rifts, you are doing T6. SWK build is best build around now. But there are (at least that I know of) 2 other viable t6 builds: raiment ping ping lightning, and a physical build based around the seasonal fist weapon (no set needed, inna's would help to build gem stacks). Did you, after you got your SWK set, try or use any of those? I even heard they might be faster for t6 than SWK (I didn't try so no idea).
I did play around a bit with the new fist weapon, but still went for a lightning build, thanks to an early seasonal thunderfury drop. It's good, but I didn't delve in too deep.
I think it's somewhat besides the point though, with all due respect. There are plenty of "fun" builds that are not intended for high GR. However, I believe that wearing a full set and having optimized gear pretty much determines a powerful character. If, hypothetically, Sonwuko currently supported all elements, then sure, there would have been an "optimal" element and skill rune set up. I don't think going for an alternative element with the exact same kind of gear and set will drop your power by that much. Not the difference between fun build and pro build. Marginal stuff, marginal enough that a lot of people might go for the lesser elements for whichever reason, if they're not the top 10 type.
Does that make any sense? In short, a set is a set, and it's power lies there. I don't think the power gap between a fire raiment and a lightning raiment will be as big as the difference between a M6 Marauder DH and a no set spike trap DH, if that helps my clear what I'm trying to say. I like a challenge, but I also like to theme and build my character how I like. If a physical/holy/fire/cold raiment build only means I'm capable of 1 or 2 GR levels lower (which, I think it should, it's still the same set and same mechanics), I'd probably prefer one of the first elements, if I don't particularly like the lightning skill runes available. Hypothetically, of course. I love lightning
Totally get your point. I only thing the main issue with the 2 lvl 70 monk sets, as with the wizard firebird set, and the helltooth set but proc is way too bad, is that it turns into a skill (SWK will be partially fixed). The proc of those sets is so strong, it doesn't really matter what element it is. The skill you proc it with is kinda 0 of your total output damage. You could go for a complete cold build with the raiment set, just put lightning% wherever you can. The loss in damage will be so small (if you have jawbreaker and ping pong correctly) that you will be able to do the 1 or 2 GR lower that you mention
We do agree there is something (a lot) wrong with the set, just our fix is different. You want to choose your element, I want to see a rework (example: "while using tempest rush, put a low presure zone for every 20 yards you've channeled (this will proc your equiped cyclone strike), to change into a high presure zone (this will proc your equiped lashing tail kick)", would still go with storm theme, would used 2 currently unused skills, gives you freedom, and might work with other items, apart from being super OP :p)
Totally get your point. I only thing the main issue with the 2 lvl 70 monk sets, as with the wizard firebird set, and the helltooth set but proc is way too bad, is that it turns into a skill (SWK will be partially fixed). The proc of those sets is so strong, it doesn't really matter what element it is. The skill you proc it with is kinda 0 of your total output damage. You could go for a complete cold build with the raiment set, just put lightning% wherever you can. The loss in damage will be so small (if you have jawbreaker and ping pong correctly) that you will be able to do the 1 or 2 GR lower that you mention
We do agree there is something (a lot) wrong with the set, just our fix is different. You want to choose your element, I want to see a rework (example: "while using tempest rush, put a low presure zone for every 20 yards you've channeled (this will proc your equiped cyclone strike), to change into a high presure zone (this will proc your equiped lashing tail kick)", would still go with storm theme, would used 2 currently unused skills, gives you freedom, and might work with other items, apart from being super OP :p)
Haha I like that. Tempest rush is still so underwhelming imo.
You are right though, I think most people agree that the sets generally need work, so I'm glad Blizzard is doing some interesting stuff with them.
Who know's though, as far as I understand, a lot of the smaller sets will also get more pieces (I know they mentioned Immortal king and Natalyas) so Innas will hopefully get the same treatments. Also, they only showed us the new barb, dh, and wiz sets at blizzcon, but I'd imagine all the classes are getting 1 entirely new set.
So that potentially brings as 2 new full sets, if you count whatever they're adding to innas (hopefully). I'm sure that'll open up a few doors at least.
I'm hoping for 6 new sets as well. But seeing the changes to the 2 monk sets, extra pieces for the old sets, combined with my thinking that there might only be 3 seasons (they showed 3 season bonusses as a transmog set, 2 year is the sweetspot for expansion, so I would expect announcement in 12 months, we are 3 months in current season and ptr is still to come, would give 3 seasons of 6 months) they might do the 3 showed sets now, and 3 sets for the other classes in season 3. Lets hope it will be 6
Having trouble seeing how the changes to Sunwuko are good or going to be more fun. It's just like throwing a huge stone between turning gears is what this feels like.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
For those of you who haven't seen the changes to these two sets announced at Blizzcon, here they are:
2P: The damage of your Spirit Generators is increased by 100%.
- 4P: The third hit from your Spirit Generators grants a charge of Dashing Strike and the amount of charges Dashing Strike can store is increased by 5.
- 6P: After using Dashing Strike, you Dashing Strike shocks all nearby enemies for 3000% weapon damage as Lightning.
This makes me feel like they really hampered the new raiment kit (again, regardless of how powerful these new set bonuses might be) by still making the 6P bonus do lightning damage. It's such a waste. Monk now have a dashing strike rune for every one of their supported elements, so why not just base the 6P damage on the DS rune selected?
End game is already hampered by highly limiting build. Opening up the possibility to choose what kind of element you want to use really helps that. I'm glad they did that for Sunwuko, but pretty disappointed they missed that (imo, pretty obvious) opportunity.
Thoughts?
People do assume the SWK set will proc a clone of the element you used on your skill. However, there are a lot of skills that "deal x% weapon damage" without mentioning a damage type, and are physical (look at tempest rush without rune for an example). In the past (vanilla), and I think this still works for followers, if no damage type was given but it said "x% weapon damage", it would actually take the damage type of your weapon. So the change to SWK might not be close to what people expect, we will have to wait for this.
For the Raiment set, the full name does indeed include "storms", so I would expect lightning.
Also, there are still early changes. There will be a PTR. If the lightning is an issue, they will fix it. So I wouldn't worry about it.
However, anyone who thinks "storms" only invlove lightning, has never been in one. Snowstorms, fire-storms, sandstorms. If there's a thousand of them, some of them are bound to be a little different.
Regardless of the outcome, wouldn't you guys agree that making a whole 6 piece set based on one element is a bit of a waste, and only further limits build diversity?
The storm might be related to language. If someone says storm, I think lightning/thunder. Checking wikipedia, there are indeed a lot of storms. However, the way the article is written and names them, makes me think "storm" is used for lightning/thunder, while the other kinds of storms are named for what they are: ice storm, snow storm, fire storm, ... Anyway, storm might be a new skill in the expansion with different elemental types
Back on topic. I don't think making a 6 piece set around 1 element is a problem. With the 2.0 launch, they said they want us to choose, with the elemental damage being 1 way to do that. I even think it is sad other sets (Raekor, Archon) do change to whatever you have stacked to most. Cold/fire dh shows mixing elemental types is not the worst thing. But the main problem at this time is, in my opinion, the limited selection to go with. Would it be bad to have SWK=Holy, Raiment=Lightning, Set3=Cold, ...? You do see they are adding more sets already, and I hope they will give options for the elements in the way of the set we pick, not 1 set fits all. For that ofcourse, the sets should be equally powerful, with equally "unofficial set pieces" (bombardier, vile wards, lut socks, ...)
Currently, the clones spawn to the nearest enemy within 15 yard. They changed that because they were to random, but does not say on the set (can't find reference). I would expect that to stay (not sure), but 15 yard is a small distance.
That would be another option, but would not work with what the set does now. It would work if it would buff/change a skill or add synergy with something. What it does now (raiment 6 piece) is almost like a huge thunderfury proc after dashing strike. What you are asking for is to make TF proc with the damage type you did. It almost is a skill on its own, with it's own element.
In essence, what I'd motivate for is for all sets to be like Akkhan, Immortal King, or even Innas. In the sense that it gives an amazing boost, but doesn't bottleneck you into a tiny space for options, essentially saying "use this skill and this element, nothing else" not only limiting your gear choices, but also which skill runes are available. Akkhan is a great example, because it makes akarat's champion super potent, but everything else you want to put on your skillbar or the kind of element you want to play with, is purely the player's choice.
In my opinion, a set should give great power, but not at the expense of diversity.
TL;DR: It's bad enough that every high end character has the exact same 6 piece set. Let's at least give them the option to choose the 6 skills they have, regardless of which element they choose.
While I do agree, there will always be 1 build that's stronger than any other (until the next thing is found, I think about nirvana monk in vanilla that came after more than a year, or the lightning DH now).
In that sense, since there are limited to no items with only 1 possible elemental type, picking whatever elemental damage you want is easy (for the damage buff). This will result in everyone with that set to go to the same element and skill (again, until some new build/synergy is found), and that one build will outperform the other sets. Making the element a free option would not fix this problem (would you pick bad skills because you can buff any elemental damage?), might make a specific set even "more better" than the others than it is now.
Sure, if there were well balanced sets for every element for every class, that could also work. But I'd still always prefer being able to choose, depending on what I prefer, instead of the set telling me I have 1 choice and 1 choice only.
I get that it's purely a matter of opinion, and I'm sure tons of people would disagree with me. Fact of the matter is simple... Balance isn't the aim here, having set items which opens up builds instead of limiting them is.
As time goes on there will be more 6P sets. Relax.
Ok, I get what you are saying, but lets put it to the test. If you would go for a fun build, not the best, it means you are probably not doing greater rifts with that. If not greater rifts, you are doing T6. SWK build is best build around now. But there are (at least that I know of) 2 other viable t6 builds: raiment ping ping lightning, and a physical build based around the seasonal fist weapon (no set needed, inna's would help to build gem stacks). Did you, after you got your SWK set, try or use any of those? I even heard they might be faster for t6 than SWK (I didn't try so no idea).
I think it's somewhat besides the point though, with all due respect. There are plenty of "fun" builds that are not intended for high GR. However, I believe that wearing a full set and having optimized gear pretty much determines a powerful character. If, hypothetically, Sonwuko currently supported all elements, then sure, there would have been an "optimal" element and skill rune set up. I don't think going for an alternative element with the exact same kind of gear and set will drop your power by that much. Not the difference between fun build and pro build. Marginal stuff, marginal enough that a lot of people might go for the lesser elements for whichever reason, if they're not the top 10 type.
Does that make any sense? In short, a set is a set, and it's power lies there. I don't think the power gap between a fire raiment and a lightning raiment will be as big as the difference between a M6 Marauder DH and a no set spike trap DH, if that helps my clear what I'm trying to say. I like a challenge, but I also like to theme and build my character how I like. If a physical/holy/fire/cold raiment build only means I'm capable of 1 or 2 GR levels lower (which, I think it should, it's still the same set and same mechanics), I'd probably prefer one of the first elements, if I don't particularly like the lightning skill runes available. Hypothetically, of course. I love lightning
Totally get your point. I only thing the main issue with the 2 lvl 70 monk sets, as with the wizard firebird set, and the helltooth set but proc is way too bad, is that it turns into a skill (SWK will be partially fixed). The proc of those sets is so strong, it doesn't really matter what element it is. The skill you proc it with is kinda 0 of your total output damage. You could go for a complete cold build with the raiment set, just put lightning% wherever you can. The loss in damage will be so small (if you have jawbreaker and ping pong correctly) that you will be able to do the 1 or 2 GR lower that you mention
We do agree there is something (a lot) wrong with the set, just our fix is different. You want to choose your element, I want to see a rework (example: "while using tempest rush, put a low presure zone for every 20 yards you've channeled (this will proc your equiped cyclone strike), to change into a high presure zone (this will proc your equiped lashing tail kick)", would still go with storm theme, would used 2 currently unused skills, gives you freedom, and might work with other items, apart from being super OP :p)
You are right though, I think most people agree that the sets generally need work, so I'm glad Blizzard is doing some interesting stuff with them.
Who know's though, as far as I understand, a lot of the smaller sets will also get more pieces (I know they mentioned Immortal king and Natalyas) so Innas will hopefully get the same treatments. Also, they only showed us the new barb, dh, and wiz sets at blizzcon, but I'd imagine all the classes are getting 1 entirely new set.
So that potentially brings as 2 new full sets, if you count whatever they're adding to innas (hopefully). I'm sure that'll open up a few doors at least.
I'm hoping for 6 new sets as well. But seeing the changes to the 2 monk sets, extra pieces for the old sets, combined with my thinking that there might only be 3 seasons (they showed 3 season bonusses as a transmog set, 2 year is the sweetspot for expansion, so I would expect announcement in 12 months, we are 3 months in current season and ptr is still to come, would give 3 seasons of 6 months) they might do the 3 showed sets now, and 3 sets for the other classes in season 3. Lets hope it will be 6