Monk 2.1 Discussion

  • #1
    Hey, everyone. I would like to read your thoughts and impressions about the latest and upcoming changes to Monks on the PTR.

    I personally am pretty underwhelmed, so far. As expected, they pretty much killed zDPS Monk now, but without adding in a way to do adequate damage for T6 or greater rifts. Sure, 6k weapon damage EP sounds a lot, but it is pretty much worthless, if we cannot do the DPS to kill the first enemy. Situational at best, it is a lot better against huge amounts of low HP mobs, of course. Also, is the explosion still physical for all runes? Monks have a hard time focusing on physical besides EP.
    But hey, we can choose an appropriate element for Dashing Strike now, yay...

    I still don't like the 3 major sets for Monks. Sunwuko's seems to be the most useable/least gimmicky set bonus, but even with a dedicated build, the damage only gets you so far. Also, the bonus to combat staff damage barely makes up for not dual-wielding, instead of providing any meaningful boost. It is probably still better to just dual-wield, despite the bonus. Not to mention holy is one of the weaker elements to focus on at the moment.
    Raiment + Jawbreaker is gimmicky as hell, and requires you to use your best utility/positioning skill to DPS, and Innas is pretty much useless, maybe a niche on pure support (which is probably not viable anymore, anyways).
    Do you expect the sets to get the Firebird's treatment (complete remake after bandaid fix), or do you think these are final now?

    I like the changes to dex in general, I feel a lot less squishy now, even though my paper toughness is lower. Getting some more unique affixes that could potentially affect builds like Madstone or the changes to the WoL daibo is a nice touch. Also more offensive passives are very much apprechiated, even though most of them do not seem to be all that great at first glance (I might be proven wrong here).

    Depth Diggers + that legendary gem could push our Spirit Generators to deal some serious damage, considering the damage for stuff like WotHF:FoF wasn't too bad to begin with. Probably still not enough to destroy T6, but definitely something to keep in mind.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Kueken: 7/10/2014 4:23:56 AM
  • #2
    1. I sadly have to agree, monk sets are pretty much useless, blackthorne bonuses > all monk sets. Raiment "fix" was total joke. We need sets, which support specific element we choose. If i decide to go all the way with for e.g. cold, set 4P, 6P should support all cold abilities and damage etc. Maybe even give immunity to those elements. What you think?

    2. As for those EP changes, cold rune along with The Fist of Az'Turrasq + Rimehearth will be only reasonable way to go. Rest runes they can pretty much delete, too low damage, comparing to spirit spend.

    3. New passive with 15% ias is a step in right direction, but still not enough imo.
    Last edited by sultangurde: 7/10/2014 4:08:53 AM
  • #3
    i find the sunwuko set the most viable for now. but to support the damage output and viability of the set, they should make %holy dmg a fixed stat on the amulet, since the decoys do holy dmg.

    raiment set is also quite strong IMO, not only, but also because it deals nice damage (i crit about 90-100mil without buffs with 1 dash), though i think if they already make dashing strike as the skill corporating with the set, maybe it should cost spirit instead of an amount of given charges. like ~30spirit/cast.

    the new seize the initiative is total crap i think, it just cant compete with like the crusader passives (15% AS & 15% CD). if attackspeed, it simply has to be PASSIVE, all the time.

    the changes to EP were expected, but this is just their way to distract from the broken rimeheart affix. it makes zDPS and shatter monks now more or less useless in higher GRift lvls yes, but rimeheart still works as before...

    i think ep will only stay kind of viable maybe with the Impending Doom rune and Fist of Az as a mandatory item .. because the damage to the mob still needs to be DONE before the explosion. so this makes rimeheart, as sultan mentions, a bit more in the direction of "mandatory" than other items.

    i personally run atm a (or at least was running, have to test it now with new build) sunwuko + madstone + fist of Az build with mass CDR stacking (borns/capt) and find it the most effective. because the effect of madstone puts one palm before every strike (now even one you have chosen in skills) and thus counting the spirit cost for every palm + initial SSS for proccing Sunwuko Decoys. thus resulting in like ~4-5 procs from sunwuko. atm (with my crappy rolls) they deal like 20-25mil each decoy crit + SSS damage i can (could) really deal nice damage on GRift lvl 30 without any exploits, just from procs and weapon damage.

    the new passives deliver a nice amount of damage boost as i think:

    if you play with (the now upgraded allies) - you can use unity, for ~15% more damage, relentless assault and the second new one also give up to 20% more damage, just like momentum.

    so as passives i run harmony, beacon of ytar + the 2 new passives for the CC'ed enemies (+20%) and enemies in 12yrd radius (+20%)

    with the new gem that gives +50% (?) damage to resource gen. skills + depth diggers and the huge buff to fists of thunder (500% or what was it?) i think a new cookie cutter build could be born
    \m/,
  • #4
    Well I was delighted to see our damage buffed here and there (finally SOMETHING) yet it might not be enough without some more core skill changes to make the class a more offensive one rathen than supporting.

    I personally adore Monk's style, animation, attitude and voicing but I hate supporting - it's just not my thing in video games. Therefore people that love dealing damage and love Monk class are either stuck between some very special builds that OP calls gimmicky (like Raiment + Jawbreaker) and playing other classes with decent DPS instead.

    It's great that we're getting more distant from the must haves we possessed since release (STI and OWE) although they might be still too good to be swapped out. It's also remarkable that finally some useful skills are getting elemental runes they have missed earlier (like Lightning DS or EP) though I still want some badass Lightning Mystic Ally.

    As stated above, we still need reliable empowering sets rather than some those with funny/crazy/situational/sadistic/??? effects.
  • #5
    I miss a philosophy behind many of the changes. Yes it is nice to have a bit more damage sources from utility skills like dashing strike and also from generators.

    But none of those is changing the basic issue that we have to jump into melee range and hit a few times before we start dealing damage. This play style does not scale well with increasing mob damage and health. Instead no-generator CDR specs tend to work better - if one can chain-cast Serenity/SSS and spam spenders those issues go away. Actually this is not so bad because it is a slightly more demanding play style.
  • #6
    Just tested new Cold rune on Exploding Palm. With 60% cold damage, 480% crit damage, 92% The Fist of Az'Turrasq mobs blow up for 200-500 kk solo play.

    Actually it is quite better now, because normal mob can blow up elite pack :D
    Last edited by sultangurde: 7/10/2014 12:11:16 PM
  • #7
    Quote from Suriel666

    i personally run atm a (or at least was running, have to test it now with new build) sunwuko + madstone + fist of Az build with mass CDR stacking (borns/capt) and find it the most effective. because the effect of madstone puts one palm before every strike (now even one you have chosen in skills) and thus counting the spirit cost for every palm + initial SSS for proccing Sunwuko Decoys. thus resulting in like ~4-5 procs from sunwuko. atm (with my crappy rolls) they deal like 20-25mil each decoy crit + SSS damage i can (could) really deal nice damage on GRift lvl 30 without any exploits, just from procs and weapon damage.


    Are you saying that madstone Exploding palms count as you would spend 30 spirit for each SSS hit? + initial SSS cost?
  • #8
    Quote from sultangurde »
    Just tested new Cold rune on Exploding Palm. With 60% cold damage, 480% crit damage, 92% The Fist of Az'Turrasq mobs blow up for 200-500 kk solo play.

    Actually it is quite better now, because normal mob can blow up elite pack :D

    Mind to post your full setup? I did a test with 54% cold, 73% vs Elites with strongarm bracers and moc and never achieved 500kk crits from palm. My FoA is 98% which is not that bad...Also used a harringtons to buff up my weapon dps. My harringtons is only 101% damage increase but shouldnt be such a difference on final explo.

  • #9
    Here is my profile on live servers, but i it is totally different on PTR.

    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/sultangurde-2142/hero/488021

    Here is what i changed on PTR:

    1. Swapped both gems to 130% crit damage

    2. Whole inna set changed to dexterity gems.

    3. Bracers reforged to 20% cold

    4. Fist of thunder reforged to 49% crit damage

    5. Soj reforged to 20% cold

    6. Different neck: 9% crit, 20% cold, 95%ish crit damage, dex.

    7. Ring of Royal Grandour: 8% cdr reforged to 5.5% crit

    Difference comes problably from +15% explosive palm on boots and 4 totally offensive passives i tested:

    Momentum +20%, Determination +20%, Unity +10% (Mystic Ally and Templar), and Relentless Assault +20%.

    Paper dps was reaching 1.6-1.7kk when all passives activated + i had 4 mantras (4P inna).

    Skill configuration:
    1. Epiphany with 50%reduction
    2. Sweeping Wind with Cold rune
    3. Dashing strike with cold rune (testing dodge proc)
    4. Mystic Ally with cold rune (hitting like a truck 20-30mln per wave when activated) // Mantra
    5. Random cold rune generator
    6. EP with cold rune

    Dont get me wrong, there were few such big hits, not all of course. Maybe some RNG, will test more when servers get more stable. Yesterday there was lag, dc etc.
    Last edited by sultangurde: 7/11/2014 1:42:17 AM
  • #10
    Quote from Bhally
    Quote from Suriel666

    i personally run atm a (or at least was running, have to test it now with new build) sunwuko + madstone + fist of Az build with mass CDR stacking (borns/capt) and find it the most effective. because the effect of madstone puts one palm before every strike (now even one you have chosen in skills) and thus counting the spirit cost for every palm + initial SSS for proccing Sunwuko Decoys. thus resulting in like ~4-5 procs from sunwuko. atm (with my crappy rolls) they deal like 20-25mil each decoy crit + SSS damage i can (could) really deal nice damage on GRift lvl 30 without any exploits, just from procs and weapon damage.


    Are you saying that madstone Exploding palms count as you would spend 30 spirit for each SSS hit? + initial SSS cost?

    I'm trying this setup right now
    suprisingly good, i use flow of eternity tho
    its a fun build
    I use the smite gem with it and it works fine t6

    EDIT: not sure if its intended... prob not
    this wont make it to live i think
    Last edited by TheParasites: 7/11/2014 2:28:30 AM
  • #11
    Quote from TheParasites
    Quote from Bhally
    Quote from Suriel666

    i personally run atm a (or at least was running, have to test it now with new build) sunwuko + madstone + fist of Az build with mass CDR stacking (borns/capt) and find it the most effective. because the effect of madstone puts one palm before every strike (now even one you have chosen in skills) and thus counting the spirit cost for every palm + initial SSS for proccing Sunwuko Decoys. thus resulting in like ~4-5 procs from sunwuko. atm (with my crappy rolls) they deal like 20-25mil each decoy crit + SSS damage i can (could) really deal nice damage on GRift lvl 30 without any exploits, just from procs and weapon damage.


    Are you saying that madstone Exploding palms count as you would spend 30 spirit for each SSS hit? + initial SSS cost?

    I'm trying this setup right now
    suprisingly good, i use flow of eternity tho
    its a fun build
    I use the smite gem with it and it works fine t6

    EDIT: not sure if its intended... prob not
    this wont make it to live i think

    @Bhally:

    yes EP costs 40 spirit, and the counter for sunwuko counts: SSS activation, palm + palm + palm .. for each strike (7) and fires a decoy proc once 75spirit was spent this way. so in avarage 1 strike from SSS did for me like ~15mil, each decoy did like ~25-30mil. this adds a nice amount of damage, so that most mobs died in T6 fast enough to trigger EP explosion, which then did its 50% + fist of Az damage to the rest.

    @TheParasites:

    would have tested it with FoE too if i had one, but it worked also fine for me without it, especially if you go full CDR (

    sunwuko gloves,shoulders,amulet, (all with CDR, amulet preferrably too)

    madstone(sock),

    born chest + wep(try to reach ~10%CDR on weapon too),

    fist of Az CDR+sock,

    new vigilante belt with most CDR possible

    RoRG with most CDR possible

    Strongarm (for more damage from CS)

    2nd ring preferrably with CDR too

    cpt crimson pants,boots (defensive stats)

    and with this skill setup where you can swap WotHF for EP of choice (since madstone now can also use the EP you want it to) and Inner Sanctuary can be replaced with serenity - ascendence for higher difficulties (GRifts), also the 2 missing passives are on PTR Determination & Relentless assault.

    with this setup you have already +40% dmg from the 2 new passives, + strongarm proc with CS(25-30%) + IS-Forbidden Palace (30%) you come around ~100% more damage to mobs. adding possible %holy dmg on amulet and 20% on strongarms and maybe SoJ, you have an awesome damage output as i think.

    so far my most favourite build that i found and had the most fun to play with. no support-only, no zDPS where you just wait for rimeheart to "proc".

    simply activate epip, pull mobs,place Forbidden palace, blind them, fire SSS and boom, next pack

    p.s. i ran it with ~70% CDR (checkout the CDR calc from bannedofgamers.com)

    so far i call this build "U mad monk?" :D

    Last edited by Suriel666: 7/11/2014 3:10:24 AM
    \m/,
  • #12
    Quote from sultangurde »

    Dont get me wrong, there were few such big hits, not all of course. Maybe some RNG, will test more when servers get more stable. Yesterday there was lag, dc etc.

    Most likely the difference is coming from passives. I didnt tested it with all 4 "dps passives". 

  • #13
    559kk highest today (with fire ally +10%)
  • #14
    Quote from Suriel666

    the new seize the initiative is total crap i think, it just cant compete with like the crusader passives (15% AS & 15% CD). if attackspeed, it simply has to be PASSIVE, all the time.

    Crusader As+CDR bonus passive exists as direct competition to heavenly strength. Monk AS passive is not supposed to "compete" with it. In fact passives across classes are (ideally) incomparable because you should be looking at full kits.

    I liked when monk only had like one offensive passive. It meant that they could have more damage in their active kit (even if most of it was just EP cheese) and less in their passive kit. Or really none at all. It gave them a unique identity as the class that had variable defense options rather than just another "pick 4 best DPS passives".

    D3 needs to move away from stackable offense passives. Crusader is interesting because only one of the offense options is universal all the other have trades based on what they will work with (Blunt vs Towering Shield, Heavenly Strength vs Fervor) meaning you can actually have fewer than 4 DPS passives.
  • #15
    Quote from Autocthon »
    D3 needs to move away from stackable offense passives. Crusader is interesting because only one of the offense options is universal all the other have trades based on what they will work with (Blunt vs Towering Shield, Heavenly Strength vs Fervor) meaning you can actually have fewer than 4 DPS passives.

    The crusader was build from scratch. As you said you cant compare the passive skilltrees across the classes.

    If you look at the current ptr leaderboard:

    Charaters solo killed GRG on Tier26 and higher:

    • Monk: 71 and only 10(!) tier30 or above
    • Barb: 278 and 38 tier30 or above
    • Sader: 287 and 62 tier30 or above
    • Wizzard: 607 and 163 tier30 or above
    • WD: 915 and 305 tier30 or above
    • DH: +1k (lowest 28 and highest 40 atm) and 596 tier30 or above

    Taking all "melee characters(monk,barb+sader) you barely have more characters who killed a grg tier26+ compared to wizzards. Without further buffs the monk cant compete with ANY other class. So if things stay in current state we are going to be the freeze supporter. Great news. :(

  • #16
    Quote from Shinna1989

    Quote from Autocthon


    D3 needs to move away from stackable offense passives. Crusader is interesting because only one of the offense options is universal all the other have trades based on what they will work with (Blunt vs Towering Shield, Heavenly Strength vs Fervor) meaning you can actually have fewer than 4 DPS passives.



    The crusader was build from scratch. As you said you cant compare the passive skilltrees across the classes.



    If you look at the current ptr leaderboard:



    Charaters solo killed GRG on Tier26 and higher:




      • Monk: 71 and only 10(!) tier30 or above


      • Barb: 278 and 38 tier30 or above


      • Sader: 287 and 62 tier30 or above


      • Wizzard: 607 and 163 tier30 or above


      • WD: 915 and 305 tier30 or above


      • DH: +1k (lowest 28 and highest 40 atm) and 596 tier30 or above



    Taking all "melee characters(monk,barb+sader) you barely have more characters who killed a grg tier26+ compared to wizzards. Without further buffs the monk cant compete with ANY other class. So if things stay in current state we are going to be the freeze supporter. Great news. :(


    Yah but that has nothing to do with whether passives do damage or not (and essentially nothing to do with my stance). It has everything to do with relative effectiveness of each class as a whole and what tools the yhave access to.

    A DH can outfit in Raekor's and never take damage again (or stop moving). WD has Jade Harvester or Summons. Wizard is taking advantage of certain items (mirrorball hello). This has much more to do with available itemization and skill loadout than anything else.
  • #17
    it has for sure what to do with passives, damage is the 1 half of efficiency and effectiveness, and mitigation is the other. as mitigation we have (only viable) harmony left (though dex=armor is nice and i dont complain) and 2-3 good for damage output: relentless assault, momentum and the other one with 12yrd radius. beacon for CDR ... aaaand thats it. all the other you will never ever ever use. 15% AS for a few seconds? b..ch please ..

    and i really think monk's AS passiv SHOULD compete with other classes' ones, because the competition and similarness just makes similar possibilities to achieve similar results, telling you, these 2 classes are equally balanced and one strong as the other. otherwise you can't ever achieve balance.

    if you look at shinnas post, you will see that monks (and other melees) are the weakest, though they should be at least as strong as range classes. and of the melees, monks are also the weakest .. now more than ever with the nerfs to EP. i really find it nice, that EP has now different elements, though they should maybe taken a look at again, but its kind of ok. a bit too low dmg, but i can live with it. but the rest is just .. useless. when did you see one running with bells or SSS without FoE. monk's spenders are just .. oh man. also the passives. for every build i would play or just simply for test, i would choose from exactly the same ~5:

    Harmony, Relentless Assault, Determination, Momentum, Beacon of Ytar (maybe unity if you play with innas <-- rofl and/or Exhaulted Soul +2regen, so what pff)

    heavenly strength vs fervor is just as it should be, both together would make him just pure imbaness. and it makes sense, but also is overpowered to other melees: he can carry a 2-hander in ONE HAND -> much more damage, or 1-hander and getting +15% AS (like dual wielding but) PLUS 15% CDR. its like 2 passives from monk in each one of crus.

    well, hopefully blizzard will see now where the monks stand without EP and they gonna buff other skills like ...


    • SSS lower spirit cost AND cooldown
    • Pillar of Ancients lower spirit cost AND moving these 3 crappy hits to one, also reworking maybe
    • AS of generators should be much much faster
    • Tempest Rush is just crap and only good for bounties (speed)
    • Dashing Strike should cost spirit (~25-30) for being able to use Raiment of Storms better and making it competable
    • Sweeping wind should last longer
    • Cyclone Strike a bit less spirit costs and
    • Mantras .. pfffffff waaaat .. besides farming builds for speed they're never really used/useful and too much spirit cost for too short time
    also would be nice if Raiment would not be bound on the only movement skill, but maybe Cyclone strike or Pillar. And Sunwukos should have its spirit-counter reduced to like 50spirit .. to low damage output to compete with other classes. therefore its amulet should roll fixed %holy dmg, since the proc does Holy damage and there are some better helms/spirit stones than sunwuko's. as you see, every wizard is now running with firebird's, because it does nice damage: 3000%/sec .. with raiment you have 3000%/dash .. gaining 1 charge every 6sec, you have 500%/sec .. thats nothing compared with firebird's or Jade's 400-700mil nukes every 2-5s

    so far my 2 cents
    Last edited by Suriel666: 7/11/2014 2:59:35 PM
    \m/,
  • #18
    Anyone know if exploding palm explosion is now scaling with +exploding palm % on armor?
  • #19

    From my testings its still only boost the dot and not the final explo.

  • #20
    Quote from Suriel666

    it has for sure what to do with passives, damage is the 1 half of efficiency and effectiveness, and mitigation is the other. as mitigation we have (only viable) harmony left (though dex=armor is nice and i dont complain) and 2-3 good for damage output: relentless assault, momentum and the other one with 12yrd radius. beacon for CDR ... aaaand thats it. all the other you will never ever ever use. 15% AS for a few seconds? b..ch please ..

    and i really think monk's AS passiv SHOULD compete with other classes' ones, because the competition and similarness just makes similar possibilities to achieve similar results, telling you, these 2 classes are equally balanced and one strong as the other. otherwise you can't ever achieve balance.

    You're saying "everyu class shgould work the same" when in reality what we should be comparing is overall kits.



    Let us imagine two classes.

    Class 1:

    Base damage on skills 100%

    Base Defense "200%"

    Passives: All DPS, each worth 20% DPS



    Class 2

    Base damage on skills 200%

    Base defense "100%"

    Passives: All defense worth 20% defense each



    The passives AND actives on these classes are incomparable (adn SHOULD not be compared) but they have comparable kits. That is what should be stroiven for not making every class "pick top 4 DPS passives". There's more tha none way to give a class tools. I'm not arguiing monks are weak, I'm arguing that if you want them to be stronger it should be thematically appropriate. Rather tahn having every class a reskin of the same core.

    Ideally monk could have NO DPS passives and have the same DPS as every other class. In exchange for weaker baseline defenses and the passives to shore it up. That's what monlk had the potential to be at one point, instead it got 4 non-exclusive DPS passives (that don;t get DPS on par with other classes anyway).
    Last edited by Autocthon: 7/12/2014 8:41:54 AM
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