INVIS's Monk End Game [Speed Palm Build] for High MP

  • #42
    Quote from soulshard

    Quote from invis

    Quote from soulshard

    So as you can see, unless I've made some hilarious oversight (and I'm sure you people will point it out if you can think of any mistakes ^^), this should be conclusive proof that EP does not gain extra damage from bonus to elite % damage from gear.

    I have also done the same test with mantra of conviction, and that DOES increase EP damage by the expected 48%.

    I intentionally didn't use the exploding palm rune that increases mob damage taken by 12% just to cut out another variable, and while I haven't tested it, I do expect that the debuff WILL increase EP damage.


    You might want to try on Ubers too, since you are on mp0 and it's difficult to see whether you are hitting the elite at the end of the trash, I am sure you will get the same result if you do ubers on any MP, equip yourself with rare ring and soj and compare the explosive numbers


    As I said earlier the reason I wasn't using the "The Flesh is Weak" rune is to cut out another variable (the 12% increased damage taken does work on the EP explosion), I was using the strong spirit rune in the video/screenshots above simply to make it easier for myself testing this, last time I tested this (in 1.0.6) I tried with all runes.

    The reason I was on mp0 was to make it easier to let the exploding palm bleed actually kill the mob by itself, to make it easier to see what's happening. If you really really want I can do the same for ubers, and I get why you'd want to confirm, but at this point if bonus damage to elites works only in ubers but not on elite packs, that would most likely be a bug (and is highly unlikely). I will update again after I've had time to actually test it.

    Meanwhile, why don't you do your own testing to either confirm or deny my findings so we can finally get some confirmation in here for everyone who I'm sure are curious. :)

    Quote from soulshard

    Btw I have to ask, did you even check out the video/screenshots? If you did I don't see how you can think I had the Essence Burn rune on. >.


    He did check the screenshots while streaming yesterday and he also did several tests with ubers. Thinking of the Essence Burn rune was only the first idea of a possible reason for your observations. He didn't recognize the color of the hand due to color blindness reasons.

    There may be a bug somewhere because on ubers "damage against elites" definitely increases exploding damage. And while watching INVIS stream it also seems to be working on elite packs.

    Possible bugs, just brainstorming:
    • SOJ with increased Exploding Palm damage (as yours) neglects/overwrites damage against elites affix for any reason (unlikely)
    • damage against elites not working on MP0 (unlikely)
    • something weird happens with explosions on "Health Link" packs
    I'd guess something weird happens with health link packs. Back in 1.0.5 there was also a bug with health link packs and life steal. You only got 1/3 life steal when hitting one mob of the pack. I don't know if that has been fixed. But probably there is also a bug with explosion on those packs.

    Please do another test with a champion pack without health link to confirm.
  • #43
    Ok, think I got it now. You marked the wrong numbers on your screenshot.

    Look at your last screenshot:
    http://download.loca...palm_damage.png

    You marked the damage numbers of non elite mobs. 50% are correct here.
    You should have marked the upper number 165901 of the last elite mob.

    Mob Health was 522359 HP. Expected damage should be 50% + 23% SOJ + 4% Unity = 50 * 1,27 = 63,5% explosion damage
    522359 * 63,5% = 331698 Damage

    Since this is a health link pack, the damage is divided by the numbers of mobs still alive in that pack. So two mobs live:

    331698 / 2 = 165849 Damage

    Screenshot shows 165901 damage, so there's a difference of 52 damage somewhere... Doesn't matter. :)

    This is how Health Link is working:
    1. You hit a monster with the Health Link affix.
    2. If you successfully deal damage, that monster checks for any other monsters with the Health Link affix that are nearby (nearby = 50 yards).
    3. If there are monsters nearby, the damage amount is immediately divided equally with them.
    4. If there aren’t any monsters nearby, that damage isn’t shared and is taken fully by the monster you hit.
  • #44
    Quote from Nayfal

    Ok, think I got it now. You marked the wrong numbers on your screenshot.

    Look at your last screenshot:
    http://download.loca...palm_damage.png

    You marked the damage numbers of non elite mobs. 50% are correct here.
    You should have marked the upper number 165901 of the last elite mob.

    Mob Health was 522359 HP. Expected damage should be 50% + 23% SOJ + 4% Unity = 50 * 1,27 = 63,5% explosion damage
    522359 * 63,5% = 331698 Damage

    Since this is a health link pack, the damage is divided by the numbers of mobs still alive in that pack. So two mobs live:

    331698 / 2 = 165849 Damage

    Screenshot shows 165901 damage, so there's a difference of 52 damage somewhere... Doesn't matter. :)

    This is how Health Link is working:
    1. You hit a monster with the Health Link affix.
    2. If you successfully deal damage, that monster checks for any other monsters with the Health Link affix that are nearby (nearby = 50 yards).
    3. If there are monsters nearby, the damage amount is immediately divided equally with them.
    4. If there aren’t any monsters nearby, that damage isn’t shared and is taken fully by the monster you hit.



    Thanks for the extra research, I have also done my further testing just now, I haven't got the screen shot but it's a simple test, i go into blue elite pack, put exploding palm on just 1 guy, i use the impending doom and let the bleed kill one guy. I tested on mp5 and didn't use sweeping wind of mantra, just pure fist of thunder. I clear all white mobs around it first but that is not necessary since I am not looking at the explosive number, just HP of elite. I kill one while the rest has full HP, without SOJ, it bring them down to 50% (exactly half point), with SOJ it clearly bring them to below 50%. So I am 100% sure this calculation is correct. I will take a look at those picture again carefully and see what he has done which makes him think differently.

    btw i don't have color blind, just color weakness so I couldn't really tell all these different color rune, they all look the same to me :)

    p.s. Maybe someone else want to give this a go too? Pretty simple test to do, just do what I have done and only kill 1 guy in the blue elite, see if their hp is 50% or below when you are wearing SOJ, the difference is very noticeable. And DON'T test this on health-link
  • #45
    There you go, one picture explain all!



    I was using impending doom rune for exploding palm to make the whole test easier. As you can see the explosive damage is calculated and my formula seems pretty accurate:

    Target A, the guy with exploding palm, original HP, 4869236
    Expected explosive damage without SOJ: 4869236 * 0.5 = 2434618
    Expected explosive damage with SOJ (30%): 4869236 * 0.5 * 1.3 = 3165003

    Target B, before explosion, he has 3729248
    After explosion, 3729248 - 3165003 = 564245
    Actual HP left, 547104 ( I accidently hit him once)

    Target C, before explosion, he has 4930995
    After explosion, 4930995 - 3165003 = 1765992
    Actual HP left, 1765901

    Does SOJ damage against elite increase explosive damage from exploding palm, yes it does!
  • #46
    SOJ does increase explosion damage, that's been proved.

    And concerning health-link packs it's possible we found a small bug. If there are only two mobs left of a pack and one explodes, why is the explosion damage still splitted when there's only one left? The last mob should get full damage of the exploding second last one.

    PS:
    Color weakness was the phrase I meant to use, sry invis. Non native english speaker.
  • #47
    I just redid my tests, and you are actually right. The most hilarious thing must've happened in my testing (I've tested this 3 times in total so far, once in an earlier patch, once in 1.0.6 and now), each time I must've tested it on a health link pack without even thinking about it. Since the numbers matched up perfectly to the expected explosion damage I just never thought twice about it. Hah.

    Ohwell, live and learn! :)
  • #48
    Quote from Nayfal

    Ok, think I got it now. You marked the wrong numbers on your screenshot.

    Look at your last screenshot:
    http://download.loca...palm_damage.png

    You marked the damage numbers of non elite mobs. 50% are correct here.
    You should have marked the upper number 165901 of the last elite mob.

    Mob Health was 522359 HP. Expected damage should be 50% + 23% SOJ + 4% Unity = 50 * 1,27 = 63,5% explosion damage
    522359 * 63,5% = 331698 Damage

    Since this is a health link pack, the damage is divided by the numbers of mobs still alive in that pack. So two mobs live:

    331698 / 2 = 165849 Damage

    Screenshot shows 165901 damage, so there's a difference of 52 damage somewhere... Doesn't matter. :)

    This is how Health Link is working:
    1. You hit a monster with the Health Link affix.
    2. If you successfully deal damage, that monster checks for any other monsters with the Health Link affix that are nearby (nearby = 50 yards).
    3. If there are monsters nearby, the damage amount is immediately divided equally with them.
    4. If there aren’t any monsters nearby, that damage isn’t shared and is taken fully by the monster you hit.



    I actually did notice those extra numbers in my own screenshots, but I just assumed that it was from fists of thunder as I hit the mob right before putting up EP.

    Pretty funny set of circumstances, what's even more funny is that it has happened TWO times before this, as I'm absolutely 100% positive that I got the same results when I tested it last time, I even recorded a video back then and I'm trying hard to find the vid now just to check if it was indeed a health link pack that threw me off then aswell (with the EP exploding for expected non-SOJ buffed damage on white mobs around the elite pack and me just assuming that was the EP explosion on the elites, just like I did now, especially since as you said the 2 EP hits on the elites were 2 different numbers, 165901 and 62090 I simply assumed those were fists of thunder hits!)
  • #49
    Quote from Nayfal

    Ok, think I got it now. You marked the wrong numbers on your screenshot.

    Look at your last screenshot:
    http://download.loca...palm_damage.png

    You marked the damage numbers of non elite mobs. 50% are correct here.
    You should have marked the upper number 165901 of the last elite mob.

    Mob Health was 522359 HP. Expected damage should be 50% + 23% SOJ + 4% Unity = 50 * 1,27 = 63,5% explosion damage
    522359 * 63,5% = 331698 Damage

    Since this is a health link pack, the damage is divided by the numbers of mobs still alive in that pack. So two mobs live:

    331698 / 2 = 165849 Damage

    Screenshot shows 165901 damage, so there's a difference of 52 damage somewhere... Doesn't matter. :)


    There is no difference in damage, you just got the calculation slightly wrong, it actually matches up perfectly with what you say if calculated like this: 522359 * 0.5 * 1.27 / 2 = 165848.98250000000000000000 (rounded up to the expected 165849)
  • #50
    Happy this got sorted out as I was starting to think one of us were going insane! ^^
  • #51
    Quote from soulshard

    Happy this got sorted out as I was starting to think one of us were going insane! ^^


    Thank god it wasn't me who made the mistake, I have posted this info everywhere...
  • #52
    Quote from invis

    Quote from soulshard

    Happy this got sorted out as I was starting to think one of us were going insane! ^^


    Thank god it wasn't me who made the mistake, I have posted this info everywhere...


    Haha :D
  • #53
    I'm playing with SP-Build for a while now and it's a lot of fun. Showed it to some friends and they think it's to powerful. :)

    Anyway, I wonder if EP is still viable in multiplayer games and how you should alter the SP-Build for multiplayer. Your chart shows that EP's effectivity decreases in multiplayer, but it still does a huge amount of damage. I guess it depends on your personal role in a group. So if you are number one dps in your group you may play with SP-Build like in solo. But what to change if you want to be more supportive (Guiding Light with Breath of Heaven? Cyclone Strike?)?

    Invis, can you probably show us some multiplayer variations of the SP-Build. What do you think works best in 2,3,4-player games?
  • #54
    Quote from Nayfal

    I'm playing with SP-Build for a while now and it's a lot of fun. Showed it to some friends and they think it's to powerful. :)

    Anyway, I wonder if EP is still viable in multiplayer games and how you should alter the SP-Build for multiplayer. Your chart shows that EP's effectivity decreases in multiplayer, but it still does a huge amount of damage. I guess it depends on your personal role in a group. So if you are number one dps in your group you may play with SP-Build like in solo. But what to change if you want to be more supportive (Guiding Light with Breath of Heaven? Cyclone Strike?)?

    Invis, can you probably show us some multiplayer variations of the SP-Build. What do you think works best in 2,3,4-player games?


    I am glad you are enjoying the build, the SP build still works pretty good in group, I would say you will still feel it very powerful if you play in a 2 man group, for example with a CM wizard, you will need SOJ to make the explosive more powerful and also swap the combination strike to cyclone strike to pull in.

    For 3 man or 4 man group, because the explosive power is much less, the main benefit of EP is the 12% additional damage from fresh is weak, you may also want to consider some group buff such as breath of heaven or cyclone strike for pull in, or combination strike (not blazing fist but crippling wave 10% additional damage). Lastly, if you group member don't mind, of course you can also use wave of light, but personally I don't like it due to the knock back.

    It does depends on who you play with and what class.
  • #55
    Quote from invis

    Quote from Nayfal

    I'm playing with SP-Build for a while now and it's a lot of fun. Showed it to some friends and they think it's to powerful. :)

    Anyway, I wonder if EP is still viable in multiplayer games and how you should alter the SP-Build for multiplayer. Your chart shows that EP's effectivity decreases in multiplayer, but it still does a huge amount of damage. I guess it depends on your personal role in a group. So if you are number one dps in your group you may play with SP-Build like in solo. But what to change if you want to be more supportive (Guiding Light with Breath of Heaven? Cyclone Strike?)?

    Invis, can you probably show us some multiplayer variations of the SP-Build. What do you think works best in 2,3,4-player games?


    I am glad you are enjoying the build, the SP build still works pretty good in group, I would say you will still feel it very powerful if you play in a 2 man group, for example with a CM wizard, you will need SOJ to make the explosive more powerful and also swap the combination strike to cyclone strike to pull in.

    For 3 man or 4 man group, because the explosive power is much less, the main benefit of EP is the 12% additional damage from fresh is weak, you may also want to consider some group buff such as breath of heaven or cyclone strike for pull in, or combination strike (not blazing fist but crippling wave 10% additional damage). Lastly, if you group member don't mind, of course you can also use wave of light, but personally I don't like it due to the knock back.

    It does depends on who you play with and what class.


    Thanks! Quite often I play with 2 barbs and one monk. So melee only group. The knockback of wave of light is really annoying in such a group, although it does insane damage especially with flying dragon proc and blinding light. Crippling wave sounds really good, I'll try that. And probably cyclone strike instead of blinding light.
  • #56
    Very cool build! This is probably a huge noob mistake since I just started playing my Monk yesterday, but it seems like Breath of Heaven: Blazing Wrath would be better than Hundred Fists. Solo, this would net you +7% damage or let you drop Combination Strike for Fleet Footed. For multiplayer, you could get Guiding Light for a larger boost to DPS, assuming you play with a melee character who knows to stay somewhat near you. Is there a reason this isn't as good?
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #57
    Quote from tanis0

    Very cool build! This is probably a huge noob mistake since I just started playing my Monk yesterday, but it seems like Breath of Heaven: Blazing Wrath would be better than Hundred Fists. Solo, this would net you +7% damage or let you drop Combination Strike for Fleet Footed. For multiplayer, you could get Guiding Light for a larger boost to DPS, assuming you play with a melee character who knows to stay somewhat near you. Is there a reason this isn't as good?

    15% AS, 15% MS and 16% damage vs 23% damage vs 15% damage and 10% MS, the first one should come out pretty much ahead. :P
    Although for multiplayer I agree, if you can keep the others in range of Guiding Light.

    Might as well ask here; monk DPS vs barb DPS; solo I assume both are similar (?), but in a group that'd give the barb way higher damage output due to overawe, is that assumption correct?
  • #58
    Quote from Temsen

    15% AS, 15% MS and 16% damage vs 23% damage vs 15% damage and 10% MS, the first one should come out pretty much ahead. :P
    Although for multiplayer I agree, if you can keep the others in range of Guiding Light.

    Might as well ask here; monk DPS vs barb DPS; solo I assume both are similar (?), but in a group that'd give the barb way higher damage output due to overawe, is that assumption correct?


    If he's keeping the HF buff up most of the time, then fair enough. I only skimmed the videos and it didn't look like the buff had a very high uptime percentage, though I may have just been watching the wrong parts.

    Sorry, I can't answer your barb v. monk question as my monk only hit 60 about 10 minutes ago and my barb is vastly better geared.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #59
    Quote from tanis0

    Quote from Temsen

    15% AS, 15% MS and 16% damage vs 23% damage vs 15% damage and 10% MS, the first one should come out pretty much ahead. :P
    Although for multiplayer I agree, if you can keep the others in range of Guiding Light.

    Might as well ask here; monk DPS vs barb DPS; solo I assume both are similar (?), but in a group that'd give the barb way higher damage output due to overawe, is that assumption correct?


    If he's keeping the HF buff up most of the time, then fair enough. I only skimmed the videos and it didn't look like the buff had a very high uptime percentage, though I may have just been watching the wrong parts.

    Sorry, I can't answer your barb v. monk question as my monk only hit 60 about 10 minutes ago and my barb is vastly better geared.


    You might be right about the HF not being up sometimes, I was doing it live and with all the explanation, and trying to do it slow for demonstration purpose, I may have missed the HF a few times, but that doesn't matter, the most important thing is before the blind, I make sure I go through the 2, 3, 4, which is blazing fist first, then mantra then blind, this will then give me 3s fully buffed DPS and usually it's what it does for me to kill one elite and due to exploding palm, they will all die. If it does more than 3s for you to kill elite, then it will still allow you to maximize your DPS during that period. The combination strike in total will give you 8% from Fist of thunder, 8% from blazing fist (combination) and another 15% from the attack speed, that's more than 30% dps buff already.
  • #60
    Quote from invis

    You might be right about the HF not being up sometimes, I was doing it live and with all the explanation, and trying to do it slow for demonstration purpose, I may have missed the HF a few times, but that doesn't matter, the most important thing is before the blind, I make sure I go through the 2, 3, 4, which is blazing fist first, then mantra then blind, this will then give me 3s fully buffed DPS and usually it's what it does for me to kill one elite and due to exploding palm, they will all die. If it does more than 3s for you to kill elite, then it will still allow you to maximize your DPS during that period. The combination strike in total will give you 8% from Fist of thunder, 8% from blazing fist (combination) and another 15% from the attack speed, that's more than 30% dps buff already.


    Cool and thanks. :)
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #61
    Any chance you have time to help a new-rolled monk out invis? :)
    (Chaxx#2103 if you have the time)
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