Mantra of Conviction w/ Submission vs. Mantra of Evasion w/ Backlash

  • #1
    Considering 150k DPS and ~50% dodge, what would amount to the most DPS between Mantra of Conviction w/ Submission and Mantra of Evasion w/ Backlash?

    To make a long story short, I am running the cookie-cutter build: FoT w/ Thunderclap, MoC w/ Overawe, etc. MoC is mapped to my right mouse button and I use it as a spirit dump. I am not trying to come up with an alternative optimal build, but with an alternative build that will allow me to not use my right mouse button.

    That'll probably sound stupid, but when doing quick runs at work, let's say during lunch time, I am stuck with using an Apple Magic Mouse. While it is a respectable working tool, it proves itself abysmally inadequate as a gaming device. I am unable to press the left and right mouse buttons at the same time. The result is I don't use Overawe, which is why I am trying to replace it with the best possible "passive" alternative.
  • #2
    My solution: get a cheap-ass portable mouse :P
    http://www.amazon.com/BestDealUSA-BLACK-Scroll-Wheel-OPTICAL/dp/B0065SL2AI/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1362087165&sr=1-1
    There, less than 5 bucks, shipping already included.

    On a more serious note: I really don't know. Still, interesting situation you got there.


    *Note: do not take too seriously.
  • #3
    Uhm... rebind MoC to a keyboard key instead? I have Sweeping Wind on RMB and press it once at the start of an engagement; I prefer spamming a keyboard key over a mouse button usually.

    Also, even without spamming it, I would assume Overawe is still better than Submission in most situations. And Backlash is quite situational, it can dish out a lot of damage when you are swarmed, but swarms of weak enemies are easy to deal with anyway, and the mantra hardly helps against the tanky hard-hitters.
  • #4
    Overawe is overall better than submission for as long as the item hunt leans towards cc and cd. Submission is great when you've got tons of IAS but will still be inferior to Overawe when you've reached godly DPS. Backlash is economical when it comes to dealing with trash mobs and certain elites and bosses but isn't a replacement for SW.

    Backlash just lacks damage compared to Overawe or even Submission, its already situational damage and yet it deals so much less when it does proc. This is coming from a person who wants his end-game build to be based around Backlash.
    sto lavorando
  • #5
    Does anyone know the chance that a dodge will trigger Backlash?
  • #6
    Of course the obvious answer to my very specific problem is: "get a cheap goddamn mouse", hahah! I agree it's kind of a stupid problem. I bring my own wireless mouse to work sometimes, most of the time I forget it. But I guess I just got kind of interested in this whole thing, which is, what is the least terrible second option to Overawe? Let's say I'm just lazy and I don't wish to press this spirit dump button, or that I'm doing it as some form of religious belief, who knows...

    Anyway.

    I understand Backlash is probably very situational, but then again, getting up close to enemies and (maybe) dodging stuff sounds like something I'm doing all the time playing a monk running this build. I guess the part that makes it terrible is the chance to trigger a meagre 35% weapon damage fire-based attack. I kinda like the concept of it though, sucks it ain't better.

    As for Submission, I guess I'm just not understanding it correctly. Feel free to tell me to go read a guide or something, but is the 12% increased damage enemies take still baked in MoC when using Submission? Or is it all replaced by only the per second damage? Also, someone mentioned that it could be worth it considering high IAS. Is the "per second" part affected by attack speed?
  • #7

    Does anyone know the chance that a dodge will trigger Backlash?

    I've never seen it fail yet. I think it's pretty much 99% chance but I'll turn back on my defensive messages just to make sure then I'll get back to you on that.



    As for Submission, I guess I'm just not understanding it correctly. Feel free to tell me to go read a guide or something, but is the 12% increased damage enemies take still baked in MoC when using Submission? Or is it all replaced by only the per second damage? Also, someone mentioned that it could be worth it considering high IAS. Is the "per second" part affected by attack speed?

    I actually asked about this in another thread. The thing is, Submission ticks per second but the tooltip will show you that its % damage each second is multiplied with your IAS. I think its a bug in the coding of the tooltip. Basically, AS x 12 = Submission Damage
    sto lavorando
  • #8


    Does anyone know the chance that a dodge will trigger Backlash?

    I've never seen it fail yet. I think it's pretty much 99% chance but I'll turn back on my defensive messages just to make sure then I'll get back to you on that.



    As for Submission, I guess I'm just not understanding it correctly. Feel free to tell me to go read a guide or something, but is the 12% increased damage enemies take still baked in MoC when using Submission? Or is it all replaced by only the per second damage? Also, someone mentioned that it could be worth it considering high IAS. Is the "per second" part affected by attack speed?

    I actually asked about this in another thread. The thing is, Submission ticks per second but the tooltip will show you that its % damage each second is multiplied with your IAS. I think its a bug in the coding of the tooltip. Basically, AS x 12 = Submission Damage


    The assumed fomula based on experiance that he mentions.

    From what I've noticed I believe the damage works something like the below as I've never seen it crit

    Dexterity as D
    (1 + (D/100)) * ((Weapon min damage + Item Min damage) * 0.12) as X_min
    (1 + (D/100) )*((Weapon max damage + item Max Damage) * 0.12) as X_max
    Attacks per Second as APS

    (1.12 * (X_min to X_max)) * APS = DPS

    Note that I've seen it proc life steal but not life on hit. Also, these calculations are assumed based on my observations and are not backed by intensive testing.
  • #9
    Well in a nutshell, Submission works like a channeling spell, the faster your APS, the more it hits but has zero channel cost. The Tooltip just shows you how much damage it does in a second but it hits much faster. Also the 12% bonus damage provided by MoC applies to it.

    As for Backlash, I did a Rakki's Crossing run and it pretty much triggers every time I dodge. It gets pretty hard to see the dodge text when lots of enemies are attacking you though and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be.
    sto lavorando
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