Lifesteal

  • #21
    Quote from Shinna1989

    Your math is in some points not valid cuz u think dps/damage from the character sheet is equal to weapon damage and thats not the case.

    Read more about weapon damage here:

    http://diablo3blog.b...pon-damage.html

    http://us.battle.net...ic/5149146733#8

    This is the reason why its so hard to do the math on healing from ll. Sure in the long run it will avg out but in reality the healing from ll differs from fight to fight in kinda retarded ranges.


    You do know how people calculate damage in games right? It is based on optimal conditions averaged out over time. How else would you get a fair comparison?

    In the case of sweeping winds it is affected by crit, crit dmg,ias, dex and weapon dmg. Suffice it to say that paper doll dmg is accurate for this.

    refer to http://eu.battle.net...opic/4551990465

    Now I did assume the same of cyclone and it is mostly true. There is 1 discrepancy but I do not feel like testing it.

    FoT;TC is absolutely 133.3%averaged weapon dmg and scales with everything so char sheet will be accurate for this. Now I'm not accounting for the hidden aps bonus to this in neither comparison as I'm not exactly sure the value there. But It's still going to be 133.3% dmg of the paper doll. Which is measured in seconds and the reason why I didn't double any damage.

    In the end it averages out so it's the best way to get a fair comparison. I mean, I did assume 100% thunderclap nonstop for loh. Is it like that? No, but it's pretty close.

    Sorry, I mean I hate being wrong so I get it. But if you have a problem with what I've said, correct it. Until then I attempted to model the dmg and your only rebuttal is "no".

    This isn't even about me being right, this is about people understanding how GOOD life steal actual is. So if it's not I'd like you to show me why.

    Because right now it looks like under the following conditions it is very comparable to say the least.

    DW'n 70k unbuffed 2APS
    MAX LOH : 4800 HPS per target in small frontal cone
    MAX LS : 3746 HPS per target in small frontal | Overawe active 4649
    HPS from mobs OOR or behind you: 1829 | Overawe active 2252
    800 LOH : 4000 HPS per target in small frontal cone

    I compared the AVG APS and LOH to AVG DMG per second and LS.

    This to me seems like the only fair comparison between the two, not only that I gave LOH the benefit of the doubt and used perfect loh weapons and the best LOH generator. (other than WotHF-FoF which is 125.3% instead of 125%. )

    It's not like I compared WotHF - Windforce Flurry which would scale with life steal much better than loh.
  • #22
    Also 70k unbuffed is very obtainable when some monks have 120k unbuffed.

    Not sure if we play the same d3. Maybe the prices differ alot between us and eu. Im on eu servers and if u try NOW to build a monk with +70k sheet dps u will end up with spending few hundred millions..
  • #23
    Quote from Shinna1989

    Also 70k unbuffed is very obtainable when some monks have 120k unbuffed.

    Not sure if we play the same d3. Maybe the prices differ alot between us and eu. Im on eu servers and if u try NOW to build a monk with +70k sheet dps u will end up with spending few hundred millions..


    I'm sure it is a few hundred million depending on what your other standards are in terms of EHP/MF or not.
    Monk was my second class and I only have had mine for a few weeks and I'm at 196 unbuffed mf, 48k unbuffed dmg, 756res, 5090 armor, 37.2% dodge and 50688 hp. Pretty well rounded and since I require every piece have at least 18% mf(36% for neck) except rings/gloves. It is indeed very expensive to upgrade at this point. I think maybe I've put 170m into him but I'm pretty good at picking up deals. Every single upgrade is significant DPS from here on out. I have pretty low dex compared to my DH, only at 1722.

    However, if I were to drop the MF, I'd easily be able to hit 70k and then some.
  • #24
    Why do you keep calling Lifesteal LL? Wouldn't it be LS?
  • #25

    Why do you keep calling Lifesteal LL? Wouldn't it be LS?
    It was called Life Leech in Diablo II. Old habits die hard.
  • #26
    Quote from Athrogate74

    This skill bums me out because on D2, life leach was my fav skill. I could do Uber Trist runs and never die due to life leach. But maybe that is why they changed it so you COULD actually die. lol
    In D2, life leech was what kept my Sin alive and actually allowed me to design my own unique build for the class. Like, she couldn't do nearly as much damage as the cookie cutter builds but she could survive, dammit!
  • #27
    Quote from aldrek


    Why do you keep calling Lifesteal LL? Wouldn't it be LS?
    It was called Life Leech in Diablo II. Old habits die hard.


    pretty much :-/ Sorry :)
  • #28
    Quote from Siaynoq

    Quote from Athrogate74

    This skill bums me out because on D2, life leach was my fav skill. I could do Uber Trist runs and never die due to life leach. But maybe that is why they changed it so you COULD actually die. lol
    In D2, life leech was what kept my Sin alive and actually allowed me to design my own unique build for the class. Like, she couldn't do nearly as much damage as the cookie cutter builds but she could survive, dammit!


    Yeah, loved my Sin with dual Bartuc's and Maras Amulet. Wonder if she still exists o.O
  • #29
    Bartuc's were great, but I also loved having a Jade Talon.
  • #30
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from Shinna1989

    Sure sw/cyclone triggers ll. With realy large trashpacks its no biggie to reach +500k peak ae dps but u wont have those +550k while fighting a pack - maybe when its horde and u need more then +40k sheetdps to have those high ae dps. I havent done the math for what ll heals for with +70k sheetdps. Maybe its getting close to like 700 loh but i doubt it. LOH is getting better in ae situations too. So i think u need kinda +80k sheet dps with 5% ll to bypass like 700 loh. And again with those insane dps u wont even need ll anymore.

    Dont get me wrong im using ll too and i kinda like it for being cheap and keep me alive while "reflect/electrified" or while fighting "horde". Getting frozen is a failure. Sometimes it happens when u got feared into it but +90%of the times its a fail and could be avoided by playing smarter. :P


    Sure you can avoid getting frozen, but my point is there are definitely situations were lifesteal is good. Also you do realize that 70k char sheet unbuffed is actually 121k buffed char sheet at least for me(I do factor in Overawe). I use deadly reach - foresight(in place of blinding flash, which would be even better numbers for elites over foresight) and combination strike(instead of resolve/trans) Remember this doesn't take into account cyclones or sweeping winds.

    EDIT: I forgot to account for Overawe being active because I originally just went off my spreadsheet which didn't have it as active.
    15% blazing wrath
    16% combination strike
    18% foresight
    24% MoC-overawe passive.
    =73 %

    so 70,000 x 1.73= 121,100 (which is the number I originally used) then we add the active overawe which I believe gets applied on top. Gives us 121,100x 1.24= 150,164



    If you have something like say 2aps and you're using FOT:TC(75% coeffiecent) so you're getting 75%x2+75%x2+75%= 375% That's is 3 hits with the first 2 double hitting and double procing loh.

    So we now have average 125% loh per attack.

    We will use the absolute max roll of LOH(959) on weapon , you can't compare sockets or anything else as that is not a direct comparison. So we now have 959 x 2 loh = 1918 loh.

    That's 1918 x 1.25 = 2397.5 average loh per swing. We have 2aps so it's now 2397.5 x 2 = 4795 healing per second per target

    Drop the LOH down to a much more realistic 800 value per weapon and it's 4k healing per second

    Life steal max is 3% with an 80% penalty. Which leaves us with .6% but we are also dual wielding. So we have 1.2% effective life steal.

    At 400k dmg a second we are are at 4800 healing per second.

    Sweeping winds is 15% weapon dmg per stack. Now I'm just going to go off paper doll dps of 70k which is as I stated earlier 121k. So we have 121,000 x .45 for a 3 stack.

    SW(x3) = 54450 dmg a second Overawe active 67574

    Cyclones each hit is 20% weapon dmg, also one hits 4 times and last 3 seconds.
    I am going to assume 3 cyclones up. That's 12 hits for a total of 240% weapon damage in 3 seconds. Which is 80% weapon dmg a second. Using the same 70k unbuffed damage which is 121k buffed. we have 121,000 x .8 which is 96,800 dmg.

    Cyclone(x3) = 96,800 dmg a second Overawe active 120131

    FoT: TC is 110%x 3 with the first two hits procing an additional 35% weapon dmg. So we have 400% weapon dmg total from the 3 hits. For an average weapon damage of 133.33% per hit. Which is 160930 avg dmg per second.

    FoT:TC = 160930 Overawe active 199718

    Total dmg done to a single mob in front of you. 312180 DPS | Overawe 387423. Which is 3746 HPS | Overawe Active 4649 HPS




    TL;DR
    DW'n 70k unbuffed 2APS
    MAX LOH : 4800 HPS per target in small frontal cone
    MAX LS : 3746 HPS per target in small frontal | Overawe active 4649
    HPS from mobs OOR or behind you: 1829 | Overawe active 2252
    800 LOH : 4000 HPS per target in small frontal cone



    EDITED to include 100% overawe uptime.


    Now let me ask you this. How many people have one 959 LOH weapon without the gems let alone two? How many times are you not in range to attack but your cyclones are? How often are there mobs to your side or behind you? You do realize there's a potential 1829 | 2252 healing per second for each mob not directly in front of you or just out of thunderclap reach, right?

    Also 70k unbuffed is very obtainable when some monks have 120k unbuffed.

    I still believe that 2x 3.00 % life steal weapons is better than trying to get 2 959 loh weapons. Let's not even talk about the quality of the weapons stats. As I said earlier only 2 weapons had 100+ dex 959 loh and an open socket vs 200 weapons that have 100+dex 3% life steal and an open socket on the NA GAH.


    Just to clarify this is based off the paper doll dps. Which means I'm not accounting for people who use a slow hard hitting 1 hander to active sweeping winds and a fast offhand.


    I'm pretty sure you've failed to take into account the +50% attack speed bonus we get from FoT. That is, you need to count 3 attacks per second instead of 2. Only glanced through the rest of your math, so can't say if that's correct or not. Feels like your SW numbers are high and FoT numbers are low to me.
  • #31
    Quote from Beace

    I'm pretty sure you've failed to take into account the +50% attack speed bonus we get from FoT. That is, you need to count 3 attacks per second instead of 2. Only glanced through the rest of your math, so can't say if that's correct or not. Feels like your SW numbers are high and FoT numbers are low to me.


    You're right I did and I stated that in another post. I wasn't sure the exact value so I didn't do it.I didn't apply the 50% AS from FoT to the dmg or to the loh. I just based it on 2APS which is generous for what a monk would have that is optimizing sweeping winds damage. They'd ideally be using a mace/spear and dagger. For a base APS of 1.55.

    I am quite sure the sweeping winds dmg is accurate though.

    Anyway that would make it
    FoT:TC 7193 HPS for Max LoH per weapon
    FoT:TC 6000 HPS for 800 LoH per weapon


    I think we can just add 50% of 133.3% so we have 133.3x 1.5 = 199.95
    I'll go with 200 because it helps my argument and not because it's an even number.


    We now have with overawe.

    FoT:TC 300328 dmg per second
    SW(3s) 67574 dmg per second
    Cyclone(3) 120131 dmg per second

    for a total of 488033 damage a second. Which is 5856 healing per second.

    So again values are per mob

    MAX LOH: 7193 HPS per target in small frontal cone
    800 LOH: 6000 HPS per target in small frontal cone
    MAX LS: 5856 HPS per target in small frontal cone
    OOR or behind you: 2552 HPS

    Again I'd rather have 3% life steal over LOH on a weapon. That doesn't mean I wouldnt use a LOH weapon. I know I'll be able to get a 3% life steal weapon much easier with proper stats way sooner than getting an 900+ loh weapon. Even if cost wasn't a factor. Not to mention I really do like sweeping winds constant heals and cyclone isn't to shabby either.
  • #32
    go for loh because in inferno the 80% ruin your ll, and with monk your really want the loh!
  • #33
    Lifesteal will allways be bad compared to Life on HIt
    Players dont die...they respawn!
  • #34
    Quote from deanos

    go for loh because in inferno the 80% ruin your ll, and with monk your really want the loh!

    So you heard/read somebody say that and aren't sure why but you believed them!

    I already showed that at a certain point life steal *EVEN WITH THE 80% PENALTY* beats LoH. Add to the fact that you can upgrade you weapon much cheaper and have more options available to you with 3% life steal weapon vs say a 800+ loh weapon. Well it becomes easier to see life steal is better for that 1 single weapon property than LOH.

    What that means is you can get LOH elsewhere, it's not about LOH vs LS as in.. You don't need LOH because you have ls or that you don't need ls because you have loh. I mean hell, you don't NEED either. There are many monks who get by on life per spirit spent or even health globes. But without a shadow of a doubt there will come a point when 3% life steal is flat out better than 959 loh..



    Quote from Fluffyandevil

    Lifesteal will allways be bad compared to Life on HIt


    So we should take your word for it? Cool.


    If you take Newti's gear as an example he'd benefit more from 3% lifesteal than 959 loh. In all scenarios.
    He has 215,472 dps buffed

    SW(3s) 96962 avg dmg a second
    Cyclone(3) 172378 avg dmg a second
    FoT: TC 430944 avg dmg a second

    = 700284 avg dmg or 8403 HPS per mob in small frontal cone
    Potential Per mob OOR or behind you 3232 HPS
    So we have

    MAX LOH: 7193 HPS per target in small frontal cone
    800 LOH: 6000 HPS per target in small frontal cone
    MAX LS NEWTI GEAR: 8403 HPS per mob in small frontal cone
    OOR or behind LULZ GEAR : 3232 HPS per mob in range of sweeping winds/cyclones but not thunderclap.

    It sure looks like it's always better. I mean 7193 > 8403 right? Let's not forget damage can still go up at least 20k unbuffed or that there will be mobs that will give you HPS that LOH won't because of positional requirements.

    edit in my original math I only calculated cyclones hitting 4 times, but apparently it can hit up to 6x. I haven't been able to test it but that would tip the scale sooner too.
  • #35
    In my own experience with LS, it is pretty good in dealing with white trash mobs since you scales well as compared to LoH.. I can see heals from upto 9k per tick but when your dealing with elites you need to have a certain damage range in order for LS to be better than LoH, at 55k dps with my monk I dont feel LS is superior to LoH,

    I understand there are players advocating that LS is better than LoH but what they are forgetting is that you need to hit really hard to benefit from LS or have a lot of mob surrounding you.

    For monks, I think a minimum of 65k unbuffed DPS is the sweet spot for LS to be superior compared to LoH, my ideal setup would be to have dual 3% LS and 400 (200 each ring) for best survivability unless I hit some godly DPS like Newti.

    Im only using a single 2.80LS weapon as a replacement for my 825LoH.
  • #36
    Quote from EarlZ088

    In my own experience with LS, it is pretty good in dealing with white trash mobs since you scales well as compared to LoH.. I can see heals from upto 9k per tick but when your dealing with elites you need to have a certain damage range in order for LS to be better than LoH, at 55k dps with my monk I dont feel LS is superior to LoH,

    I understand there are players advocating that LS is better than LoH but what they are forgetting is that you need to hit really hard to benefit from LS or have a lot of mob surrounding you.

    For monks, I think a minimum of 65k unbuffed DPS is the sweet spot for LS to be superior compared to LoH, my ideal setup would be to have dual 3% LS and 400 (200 each ring) for best survivability unless I hit some godly DPS like Newti.

    Im only using a single 2.80LS weapon as a replacement for my 825LoH.


    So you agree with what I said then. Now while you say 65k unbuffed dps is the "sweet spot" you're also forgetting something. That would be the sweet spot in the scenario I posted. Which compared 2 perfect/800 loh weapons to 2 3% LS weapons.

    Now if you were to only have 2 400 LOH weapons, well then the 3% LS weapons only need to do half of the original damage a sec to have the same results. This is actually around 35k dmg since my values were based on 70k unbuffed dmg.

    So now you can see you need a GOOD amount of LOH to be better than life steal. This is considering quite a few monks are around 35k.

    I also feel the break point is possibly sooner than that because 1 tick of sweeping winds or cyclone that isn't in thunder clap range will provide you with a lot more healing. This happens even more so with elites that run away and when it does, LOH just doesn't compare in that regard.
  • #37
    Quote from Shinna1989

    Quote from BaconBacon

    Quote from Shinna1989

    For monks its not as good as loh until you break 40-50k damage

    Fixed for you.
    Just fyi with only 2.7% lifesteal (44k damage), in packs that I aoe, lifesteal is returning ~3k a second (700ish on single target).

    Im running 55k DPS unbuffed atm with 5% LL and those 5% arent better then 900 loh witch i had with my old weapons. So pls dont spread false numbers. With 2,7% LL u heal for 2,7 X 0,2 = 0,54% of your dmg. So u need 555k ae dps as a monk to heal for 3k/sec.. Pls get real. LL is nice for dealing with reflect/electrified affix combos. Its cheaper then loh but with realy high dps gear u wont even need ll at all as a monk since u burn thru a pack within your cds.


    55k DPS unbuffed? That is just crazy! How the heck do you hit so hard? Maybe I am just still trying to figure this game out.
  • #38
    Putting this on top: Do mobs in Inferno have some kind of resistances and damage reduction (armor)? Just wondering, since this would kind of affect LS, but not LoH.


    The main part of my post:
    So, at something like 40k dps white mobs become trivial (except maybe some ranged guys), and health globes are more than enough to keep you topped off. So, the question is what the best life regeneration is for fights with problematic elite packs. Both LoH and LL require that you actually hit mobs, LL in addition needs SW up and hitting hard to be efficient. My feeling is that LoH does slightly better here.

    Right now I'm running with quickening + transcendence. Since I'm spamming MoC anyways to max out my dps, this gives me a constant stream of healing while fighting mobs, and an extra health pool of about 9000 life when I'm not fighting. I've been looking into getting weapons with LpSS, but it's difficult. Something between 100 and 150 LpSS would be nice, gives 5k-7.5k health with each MoC and an extra 15k-20k health in the form of spirit when not fighting stuff.

    Lets stick with 100 LpSS, and MoC every 3 seconds. That's 1.6k health per second, and a buffer of 15k in addition to the health pool (with quickening spirit is full most of the time).

    Another option is health regen. It should be possible to get 2k regen per second without too much gear trouble, and it gives more health than transcendence, though it's less bursty. Another advantage is that you can free up transcendence (although that's also possible with LpSS when dual wielding).


    Bottom line? I don't know.
    I noticed some diminishing returns from LoH as my dps went up, so I dropped it. Quickening + Transcendence is nice, but would be better with some extra LpSS from gear. Health regen should be similar, but will require a lot of new gear. I'm willing to try LS, if I find a proper weapon. I'll let you know how it feels.
  • #39
    Quote from Bobcat915


    55k DPS unbuffed? That is just crazy! How the heck do you hit so hard? Maybe I am just still trying to figure this game out.

    High amount of dex, high crit chance and crit dmg with like 21% ias atm.
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/de/profile/Shinna-2251/hero/10580467

    This is my current gear. The helm and neck isnt that great but im using the monk gear on my dh as well atm. So its ok.
  • #40
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from EarlZ088

    In my own experience with LS, it is pretty good in dealing with white trash mobs since you scales well as compared to LoH.. I can see heals from upto 9k per tick but when your dealing with elites you need to have a certain damage range in order for LS to be better than LoH, at 55k dps with my monk I dont feel LS is superior to LoH,

    I understand there are players advocating that LS is better than LoH but what they are forgetting is that you need to hit really hard to benefit from LS or have a lot of mob surrounding you.

    For monks, I think a minimum of 65k unbuffed DPS is the sweet spot for LS to be superior compared to LoH, my ideal setup would be to have dual 3% LS and 400 (200 each ring) for best survivability unless I hit some godly DPS like Newti.

    Im only using a single 2.80LS weapon as a replacement for my 825LoH.


    So you agree with what I said then. Now while you say 65k unbuffed dps is the "sweet spot" you're also forgetting something. That would be the sweet spot in the scenario I posted. Which compared 2 perfect/800 loh weapons to 2 3% LS weapons.

    Now if you were to only have 2 400 LOH weapons, well then the 3% LS weapons only need to do half of the original damage a sec to have the same results. This is actually around 35k dmg since my values were based on 70k unbuffed dmg.

    So now you can see you need a GOOD amount of LOH to be better than life steal. This is considering quite a few monks are around 35k.

    I also feel the break point is possibly sooner than that because 1 tick of sweeping winds or cyclone that isn't in thunder clap range will provide you with a lot more healing. This happens even more so with elites that run away and when it does, LOH just doesn't compare in that regard.


    I am not picking any sides, just stating my experience.. Based on extended testing I still feel more comfortable with LoH in elite battles that I cannot melt down with in 6 seconds. The 600 life drained every 100k damage (for 3%LS only) is not best suited for my play style as compared to draining more than 1,500 per hit.. Maybe when I have a budget for like 150M per 3% weapon with 40-50% crit and an open socket, LS will be superior for my build.

    Im actually having a hard time upgrading my weapons now due to the insane prices!
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