Sure sw/cyclone triggers ll. With realy large trashpacks its no biggie to reach +500k peak ae dps but u wont have those +550k while fighting a pack - maybe when its horde and u need more then +40k sheetdps to have those high ae dps. I havent done the math for what ll heals for with +70k sheetdps. Maybe its getting close to like 700 loh but i doubt it. LOH is getting better in ae situations too. So i think u need kinda +80k sheet dps with 5% ll to bypass like 700 loh. And again with those insane dps u wont even need ll anymore.
Dont get me wrong im using ll too and i kinda like it for being cheap and keep me alive while "reflect/electrified" or while fighting "horde". Getting frozen is a failure. Sometimes it happens when u got feared into it but +90%of the times its a fail and could be avoided by playing smarter.
Sure you can avoid getting frozen, but my point is there are definitely situations were lifesteal is good. Also you do realize that 70k char sheet unbuffed is actually 121k buffed char sheet at least for me(I do factor in Overawe). I use deadly reach - foresight(in place of blinding flash, which would be even better numbers for elites over foresight) and combination strike(instead of resolve/trans) Remember this doesn't take into account cyclones or sweeping winds.
EDIT: I forgot to account for Overawe being active because I originally just went off my spreadsheet which didn't have it as active.
15% blazing wrath
16% combination strike
18% foresight
24% MoC-overawe passive.
=73 %
so 70,000 x 1.73= 121,100 (which is the number I originally used) then we add the active overawe which I believe gets applied on top. Gives us 121,100x 1.24= 150,164
If you have something like say 2aps and you're using FOT:TC(75% coeffiecent) so you're getting 75%x2+75%x2+75%= 375% That's is 3 hits with the first 2 double hitting and double procing loh.
So we now have average 125% loh per attack.
We will use the absolute max roll of LOH(959) on weapon , you can't compare sockets or anything else as that is not a direct comparison. So we now have 959 x 2 loh = 1918 loh.
That's 1918 x 1.25 = 2397.5 average loh per swing. We have 2aps so it's now 2397.5 x 2 = 4795 healing per second per target
Drop the LOH down to a much more realistic 800 value per weapon and it's 4k healing per second
Life steal max is 3% with an 80% penalty. Which leaves us with .6% but we are also dual wielding. So we have 1.2% effective life steal.
At 400k dmg a second we are are at 4800 healing per second.
Sweeping winds is 15% weapon dmg per stack. Now I'm just going to go off paper doll dps of 70k which is as I stated earlier 121k. So we have 121,000 x .45 for a 3 stack.
SW(x3) = 54450 dmg a second Overawe active 67574
Cyclones each hit is 20% weapon dmg, also one hits 4 times and last 3 seconds.
I am going to assume 3 cyclones up. That's 12 hits for a total of 240% weapon damage in 3 seconds. Which is 80% weapon dmg a second. Using the same 70k unbuffed damage which is 121k buffed. we have 121,000 x .8 which is 96,800 dmg.
Cyclone(x3) = 96,800 dmg a second Overawe active 120131
FoT: TC is 110%x 3 with the first two hits procing an additional 35% weapon dmg. So we have 400% weapon dmg total from the 3 hits. For an average weapon damage of 133.33% per hit. Which is 160930 avg dmg per second.
FoT:TC = 160930 Overawe active 199718
Total dmg done to a single mob in front of you. 312180 DPS | Overawe 387423. Which is 3746 HPS | Overawe Active 4649 HPS
TL;DR
DW'n 70k unbuffed 2APS
MAX LOH : 4800 HPS per target in small frontal cone
MAX LS : 3746 HPS per target in small frontal | Overawe active 4649
HPS from mobs OOR or behind you: 1829 | Overawe active 2252
800 LOH : 4000 HPS per target in small frontal cone
EDITED to include 100% overawe uptime.
Now let me ask you this. How many people have one 959 LOH weapon without the gems let alone two? How many times are you not in range to attack but your cyclones are? How often are there mobs to your side or behind you? You do realize there's a potential 1829 | 2252 healing per second for each mob not directly in front of you or just out of thunderclap reach, right?
Also 70k unbuffed is very obtainable when some monks have 120k unbuffed.
I still believe that 2x 3.00 % life steal weapons is better than trying to get 2 959 loh weapons. Let's not even talk about the quality of the weapons stats. As I said earlier only 2 weapons had 100+ dex 959 loh and an open socket vs 200 weapons that have 100+dex 3% life steal and an open socket on the NA GAH.
Just to clarify this is based off the paper doll dps. Which means I'm not accounting for people who use a slow hard hitting 1 hander to active sweeping winds and a fast offhand.
I'm pretty sure you've failed to take into account the +50% attack speed bonus we get from FoT. That is, you need to count 3 attacks per second instead of 2. Only glanced through the rest of your math, so can't say if that's correct or not. Feels like your SW numbers are high and FoT numbers are low to me.
I'm pretty sure you've failed to take into account the +50% attack speed bonus we get from FoT. That is, you need to count 3 attacks per second instead of 2. Only glanced through the rest of your math, so can't say if that's correct or not. Feels like your SW numbers are high and FoT numbers are low to me.
You're right I did and I stated that in another post. I wasn't sure the exact value so I didn't do it.I didn't apply the 50% AS from FoT to the dmg or to the loh. I just based it on 2APS which is generous for what a monk would have that is optimizing sweeping winds damage. They'd ideally be using a mace/spear and dagger. For a base APS of 1.55.
I am quite sure the sweeping winds dmg is accurate though.
Anyway that would make it
FoT:TC 7193 HPS for Max LoH per weapon
FoT:TC 6000 HPS for 800 LoH per weapon
I think we can just add 50% of 133.3% so we have 133.3x 1.5 = 199.95
I'll go with 200 because it helps my argument and not because it's an even number.
We now have with overawe.
FoT:TC 300328 dmg per second
SW(3s) 67574 dmg per second
Cyclone(3) 120131 dmg per second
for a total of 488033 damage a second. Which is 5856 healing per second.
So again values are per mob
MAX LOH: 7193 HPS per target in small frontal cone
800 LOH: 6000 HPS per target in small frontal cone
MAX LS: 5856 HPS per target in small frontal cone
OOR or behind you: 2552 HPS
Again I'd rather have 3% life steal over LOH on a weapon. That doesn't mean I wouldnt use a LOH weapon. I know I'll be able to get a 3% life steal weapon much easier with proper stats way sooner than getting an 900+ loh weapon. Even if cost wasn't a factor. Not to mention I really do like sweeping winds constant heals and cyclone isn't to shabby either.
go for loh because in inferno the 80% ruin your ll, and with monk your really want the loh!
So you heard/read somebody say that and aren't sure why but you believed them!
I already showed that at a certain point life steal *EVEN WITH THE 80% PENALTY* beats LoH. Add to the fact that you can upgrade you weapon much cheaper and have more options available to you with 3% life steal weapon vs say a 800+ loh weapon. Well it becomes easier to see life steal is better for that 1 single weapon property than LOH.
What that means is you can get LOH elsewhere, it's not about LOH vs LS as in.. You don't need LOH because you have ls or that you don't need ls because you have loh. I mean hell, you don't NEED either. There are many monks who get by on life per spirit spent or even health globes. But without a shadow of a doubt there will come a point when 3% life steal is flat out better than 959 loh..
Lifesteal will allways be bad compared to Life on HIt
So we should take your word for it? Cool.
If you take Newti's gear as an example he'd benefit more from 3% lifesteal than 959 loh. In all scenarios.
He has 215,472 dps buffed
SW(3s) 96962 avg dmg a second
Cyclone(3) 172378 avg dmg a second
FoT: TC 430944 avg dmg a second
= 700284 avg dmg or 8403 HPS per mob in small frontal cone
Potential Per mob OOR or behind you 3232 HPS
So we have
MAX LOH: 7193 HPS per target in small frontal cone
800 LOH: 6000 HPS per target in small frontal cone
MAX LS NEWTI GEAR: 8403 HPS per mob in small frontal cone
OOR or behind LULZ GEAR : 3232 HPS per mob in range of sweeping winds/cyclones but not thunderclap.
It sure looks like it's always better. I mean 7193 > 8403 right? Let's not forget damage can still go up at least 20k unbuffed or that there will be mobs that will give you HPS that LOH won't because of positional requirements.
edit in my original math I only calculated cyclones hitting 4 times, but apparently it can hit up to 6x. I haven't been able to test it but that would tip the scale sooner too.
In my own experience with LS, it is pretty good in dealing with white trash mobs since you scales well as compared to LoH.. I can see heals from upto 9k per tick but when your dealing with elites you need to have a certain damage range in order for LS to be better than LoH, at 55k dps with my monk I dont feel LS is superior to LoH,
I understand there are players advocating that LS is better than LoH but what they are forgetting is that you need to hit really hard to benefit from LS or have a lot of mob surrounding you.
For monks, I think a minimum of 65k unbuffed DPS is the sweet spot for LS to be superior compared to LoH, my ideal setup would be to have dual 3% LS and 400 (200 each ring) for best survivability unless I hit some godly DPS like Newti.
Im only using a single 2.80LS weapon as a replacement for my 825LoH.
In my own experience with LS, it is pretty good in dealing with white trash mobs since you scales well as compared to LoH.. I can see heals from upto 9k per tick but when your dealing with elites you need to have a certain damage range in order for LS to be better than LoH, at 55k dps with my monk I dont feel LS is superior to LoH,
I understand there are players advocating that LS is better than LoH but what they are forgetting is that you need to hit really hard to benefit from LS or have a lot of mob surrounding you.
For monks, I think a minimum of 65k unbuffed DPS is the sweet spot for LS to be superior compared to LoH, my ideal setup would be to have dual 3% LS and 400 (200 each ring) for best survivability unless I hit some godly DPS like Newti.
Im only using a single 2.80LS weapon as a replacement for my 825LoH.
So you agree with what I said then. Now while you say 65k unbuffed dps is the "sweet spot" you're also forgetting something. That would be the sweet spot in the scenario I posted. Which compared 2 perfect/800 loh weapons to 2 3% LS weapons.
Now if you were to only have 2 400 LOH weapons, well then the 3% LS weapons only need to do half of the original damage a sec to have the same results. This is actually around 35k dmg since my values were based on 70k unbuffed dmg.
So now you can see you need a GOOD amount of LOH to be better than life steal. This is considering quite a few monks are around 35k.
I also feel the break point is possibly sooner than that because 1 tick of sweeping winds or cyclone that isn't in thunder clap range will provide you with a lot more healing. This happens even more so with elites that run away and when it does, LOH just doesn't compare in that regard.
For monks its not as good as loh until you break 40-50k damage
Fixed for you.
Just fyi with only 2.7% lifesteal (44k damage), in packs that I aoe, lifesteal is returning ~3k a second (700ish on single target).
Im running 55k DPS unbuffed atm with 5% LL and those 5% arent better then 900 loh witch i had with my old weapons. So pls dont spread false numbers. With 2,7% LL u heal for 2,7 X 0,2 = 0,54% of your dmg. So u need 555k ae dps as a monk to heal for 3k/sec.. Pls get real. LL is nice for dealing with reflect/electrified affix combos. Its cheaper then loh but with realy high dps gear u wont even need ll at all as a monk since u burn thru a pack within your cds.
55k DPS unbuffed? That is just crazy! How the heck do you hit so hard? Maybe I am just still trying to figure this game out.
In my own experience with LS, it is pretty good in dealing with white trash mobs since you scales well as compared to LoH.. I can see heals from upto 9k per tick but when your dealing with elites you need to have a certain damage range in order for LS to be better than LoH, at 55k dps with my monk I dont feel LS is superior to LoH,
I understand there are players advocating that LS is better than LoH but what they are forgetting is that you need to hit really hard to benefit from LS or have a lot of mob surrounding you.
For monks, I think a minimum of 65k unbuffed DPS is the sweet spot for LS to be superior compared to LoH, my ideal setup would be to have dual 3% LS and 400 (200 each ring) for best survivability unless I hit some godly DPS like Newti.
Im only using a single 2.80LS weapon as a replacement for my 825LoH.
So you agree with what I said then. Now while you say 65k unbuffed dps is the "sweet spot" you're also forgetting something. That would be the sweet spot in the scenario I posted. Which compared 2 perfect/800 loh weapons to 2 3% LS weapons.
Now if you were to only have 2 400 LOH weapons, well then the 3% LS weapons only need to do half of the original damage a sec to have the same results. This is actually around 35k dmg since my values were based on 70k unbuffed dmg.
So now you can see you need a GOOD amount of LOH to be better than life steal. This is considering quite a few monks are around 35k.
I also feel the break point is possibly sooner than that because 1 tick of sweeping winds or cyclone that isn't in thunder clap range will provide you with a lot more healing. This happens even more so with elites that run away and when it does, LOH just doesn't compare in that regard.
I am not picking any sides, just stating my experience.. Based on extended testing I still feel more comfortable with LoH in elite battles that I cannot melt down with in 6 seconds. The 600 life drained every 100k damage (for 3%LS only) is not best suited for my play style as compared to draining more than 1,500 per hit.. Maybe when I have a budget for like 150M per 3% weapon with 40-50% crit and an open socket, LS will be superior for my build.
Im actually having a hard time upgrading my weapons now due to the insane prices!
I am not picking any sides, just stating my experience.. Based on extended testing I still feel more comfortable with LoH in elite battles that I cannot melt down with in 6 seconds. The 600 life drained every 100k damage (for 3%LS only) is not best suited for my play style as compared to draining more than 1,500 per hit.. Maybe when I have a budget for like 150M per 3% weapon with 40-50% crit and an open socket, LS will be superior for my build.
Im actually having a hard time upgrading my weapons now due to the insane prices!
Well to me it sounds like you are using a 1 hander with low overall damage. So maybe it is better for you to have LOH on that slot.
I realize I'm nitpicking but since you're comparing 3% lifesteal to your loh. You should realize you can at max get 3597 HPS averaged loh at 2 aps including FoTs hidden IAS, which makes it 3aps. Which an averaged LOH of 1198 per hit, of course this is assuming you have 2aps and you have a perfect 959 loh weapon. Comparing a socket or including loh from other pieces of gear is not a fair comparison as you shouldn't choose between stacking loh vs stacking life steal. You should use whichever property is better in the game for that specific slot for your current setup.
I agree life steal needs a lot of damage to compete with high end LOH but you should realize that the less base loh a weapon has the less damage is needed to compete. Some examples *based on my previous conditions*
28k dmg, 3% LS > 320 loh
35k dmg, 3% LS > 400 loh
42k dmg, 3% LS > 480 loh
56k dmg, 3% LS > 640 loh
70k dmg, 3% LS > 800 loh
And it would be more important what your other gear is. 150m in gear > 150m on a weapon.
I am not picking any sides, just stating my experience.. Based on extended testing I still feel more comfortable with LoH in elite battles that I cannot melt down with in 6 seconds. The 600 life drained every 100k damage (for 3%LS only) is not best suited for my play style as compared to draining more than 1,500 per hit.. Maybe when I have a budget for like 150M per 3% weapon with 40-50% crit and an open socket, LS will be superior for my build.
Im actually having a hard time upgrading my weapons now due to the insane prices!
Well to me it sounds like you are using a 1 hander with low overall damage. So maybe it is better for you to have LOH on that slot.
I realize I'm nitpicking but since you're comparing 3% lifesteal to your loh. You should realize you can at max get 1798 HPS averaged loh at 2 aps including FoTs hidden IAS, which makes it 3aps. Which an averaged LOH of 599 per hit, of course this is assuming you have 2aps and you have a perfect 959 loh weapon. Comparing a socket or including loh from other pieces of gear is not a fair comparison as you shouldn't choose between stacking loh vs stacking life steal. You should use whichever property is better in the game for that specific slot for your current setup.
I agree life steal needs a lot of damage to compete with high end LOH but you should realize that the less base loh a weapon has the less damage is needed to compete. Some examples *based on my previous conditions*
28k dmg, 3% LS > 320 loh
35k dmg, 3% LS > 400 loh
42k dmg, 3% LS > 480 loh
56k dmg, 3% LS > 640 loh
70k dmg, 3% LS > 800 loh
And it would be more important what your other gear is. 150m in gear > 150m on a weapon.
I would suppose a 1k dps axe can be considered low damage these days, Id also like to add that even on a single target I get more than 825 LoH.. 825 is my only LoH value from a single weapon.
I would suppose a 1k dps axe can be considered low damage these days, Id also like to add that even on a single target I get more than 825 LoH.. 825 is my only LoH value from a single weapon.
I meant low char sheet damage... not weapon damage. Weapon damage is largely irrelevant unless you're actively managing your sweeping winds. An 800 dps weapon with 200 dex is the same damage as a 1000 dps weapon. So until you're talking the best of the best weapon damage isn't as important as the stats on the item. To further illustrate that for my gear a 535 dps weapon with 350 dex and 100% crit dmg + a socket is better than a 1000 dps weapon with a socket by about 685 char sheet dmg.
Also averaged means just that. For example you strike once with FoT:TC and you get a 75% proc from the initial hit and a 75% hit from the secondary effect. For a total of 1237 but that's only your first 2 hits, your 3rd hit is only 619. So Averaged it's 1055 per hit with your weapon, again if you have a LOH gem then you would have to remove that value and compare once again.
Now if you were using say FoT: Quickening it's 100% loh, 100% loh, 75%loh that's 825+825+619= 759 averaged loh per hit.
I also want to point out that I was tired earlier and said the max avg you could get per swing was 599, it's actually 1198. Again this is with a 1 hander only and not including gems or LOH from other slots. The rest is accurate though.
Character sheet DPS is 55k, I prefer more weapon damage of 300dex and 500 dps since the damage difference on SW is day and night.
Well now we're getting into optimizing sweeping winds and if you're doing that you would want the dagger I posted with 535 dps with the 350dex and 100% base crit with a socket in your offhand and your other weapon in your main hand. That would serve you A LOT better than a 1000 dps off hand with a socket.
Or even swapping in a 2 hander for activating sweeping winds.
After a few days of play testing and comparing, I still find my 825LoH spear far better than my 2.9LS axe ( with the axe I get 1k more dps ) I've also managed to increase my dps by upgrading a few things which gives me 59.8k as of now. I understand that there are some of you who are advocating that LS is better and I respect that opinion.
Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.
As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.
In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.
I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.
As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.
In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.
I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
True, this is what the paper comparison is missing. But even disregarding the hidden multipliers on the LoH, I cannot imagine how LS will actually be superior in terms of practical usage I mean you only drain 600HP per 100K damage delt, with my 825LoH I gain that per hit. But of course LS is cheaper.. A combination of both would be great.
Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.
As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.
In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.
I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.
As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.
In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.
I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
True, this is what the paper comparison is missing. But even disregarding the hidden multipliers on the LoH, I cannot imagine how LS will actually be superior in terms of practical usage I mean you only drain 600HP per 100K damage delt, with my 825LoH I gain that per hit. But of course LS is cheaper.. A combination of both would be great.
If both of you are referring to the numbers I got I did account for the life on hit coefficients and picked the most favorable loh generator too. Which is why if you use anything but FoT:TC Life steal will get better faster. It averages 125% loh per hit while the next best is Wothf:FoF at 125.33% however that is slower than FoT:TC.
I know my first post that contained this info was long. But if you're going to compare anything you probably should have looked at the details and method rather than just the outcome. Else you're just regurgitating what you heard elsewhere.
*EDIT * Slightly off topic
Just a theory I have for 1.04 but if Wave of Light coefficients stay as they are but the spell gets either a damage increase or cost reduction, either of which I expect to happen,on top of 2handers being useful. LOH will actually be bad compared to life steal. Which is something you could never say with FoT:TC
Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.
As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.
In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.
I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.
As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.
In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.
I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
True, this is what the paper comparison is missing. But even disregarding the hidden multipliers on the LoH, I cannot imagine how LS will actually be superior in terms of practical usage I mean you only drain 600HP per 100K damage delt, with my 825LoH I gain that per hit. But of course LS is cheaper.. A combination of both would be great.
If both of you are referring to the numbers I got I did account for the life on hit coefficients and picked the most favorable loh generator too. Which is why if you use anything but FoT:TC Life steal will get better faster. It averages 125% loh per hit while the next best is Wothf:FoF at 125.33% however that is slower than FoT:TC.
I know my first post that contained this info was long. But if you're going to compare anything you probably should have looked at the details and method rather than just the outcome. Else you're just regurgitating what you heard elsewhere.
*EDIT * Slightly off topic
Just a theory I have for 1.04 but if Wave of Light coefficients stay as they are but the spell gets either a damage increase or cost reduction, either of which I expect to happen,on top of 2handers being useful. LOH will actually be bad compared to life steal. Which is something you could never say with FoT:TC
I wasn't referring to any post specifically, but most people who math out LoH vs LS don't take those coefficients into account. Plus, while FoT:TC may be a favorable skill for use with LoH, I would believe that a different load out of skills might slightly favor LS. My point was that it's impossible to generalize one as better than the other when the LoH coefficients innately make it a situational measurement.
Also I would assume based on Blizzard's earlier statement that they would be buffing LS if it was obviously less powerful and used overall(which it is in many situations) that they will be making it stronger in one way or another eventually.
I wasn't referring to any post specifically, but most people who math out LoH vs LS don't take those coefficients into account. Plus, while FoT:TC may be a favorable skill for use with LoH, I would believe that a different load out of skills might slightly favor LS. My point was that it's impossible to generalize one as better than the other when the LoH coefficients innately make it a situational measurement.
Also I would assume based on Blizzard's earlier statement that they would be buffing LS if it was obviously less powerful and used overall(which it is in many situations) that they will be making it stronger in one way or another eventually.
Oh, well I think I've shown the break point that life steal surpasses LOH for that 1 single property based on optimal conditions for LOH averaged out. If people don't understand how OP the loh coefficient is for fot:tc and use something like quickening thinking it will be the same. Well I don't know what to say.
I also advocate life steal as being viable and it will likely be even more so after 1.04. But I can't stress enough that either way that doesn't mean one is bad. People can use both, they don't have to pick between one or the other. Though I expect to see some more life steal items through legendaries. Maybe a stealskull or vamp gaze:)
Basically, you didn't read anything and just posted. Carry on.
Basically, you didn't read anything and just posted. Carry on.
Incorrect. Don't confuse "You didn't read anything" with "You didn't read MY post so you suck!". The fact is that yes, I did not catch your particular post or the post you previously referenced, because it was not the OP and I did not read every single post in the thread.
Also, if you're agreeing with me, there's no need to be such a giant asshole about it.
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I'm pretty sure you've failed to take into account the +50% attack speed bonus we get from FoT. That is, you need to count 3 attacks per second instead of 2. Only glanced through the rest of your math, so can't say if that's correct or not. Feels like your SW numbers are high and FoT numbers are low to me.
You're right I did and I stated that in another post. I wasn't sure the exact value so I didn't do it.I didn't apply the 50% AS from FoT to the dmg or to the loh. I just based it on 2APS which is generous for what a monk would have that is optimizing sweeping winds damage. They'd ideally be using a mace/spear and dagger. For a base APS of 1.55.
I am quite sure the sweeping winds dmg is accurate though.
Anyway that would make it
FoT:TC 7193 HPS for Max LoH per weapon
FoT:TC 6000 HPS for 800 LoH per weapon
I think we can just add 50% of 133.3% so we have 133.3x 1.5 = 199.95
I'll go with 200 because it helps my argument and not because it's an even number.
We now have with overawe.
FoT:TC 300328 dmg per second
SW(3s) 67574 dmg per second
Cyclone(3) 120131 dmg per second
for a total of 488033 damage a second. Which is 5856 healing per second.
So again values are per mob
MAX LOH: 7193 HPS per target in small frontal cone
800 LOH: 6000 HPS per target in small frontal cone
MAX LS: 5856 HPS per target in small frontal cone
OOR or behind you: 2552 HPS
Again I'd rather have 3% life steal over LOH on a weapon. That doesn't mean I wouldnt use a LOH weapon. I know I'll be able to get a 3% life steal weapon much easier with proper stats way sooner than getting an 900+ loh weapon. Even if cost wasn't a factor. Not to mention I really do like sweeping winds constant heals and cyclone isn't to shabby either.
I already showed that at a certain point life steal *EVEN WITH THE 80% PENALTY* beats LoH. Add to the fact that you can upgrade you weapon much cheaper and have more options available to you with 3% life steal weapon vs say a 800+ loh weapon. Well it becomes easier to see life steal is better for that 1 single weapon property than LOH.
What that means is you can get LOH elsewhere, it's not about LOH vs LS as in.. You don't need LOH because you have ls or that you don't need ls because you have loh. I mean hell, you don't NEED either. There are many monks who get by on life per spirit spent or even health globes. But without a shadow of a doubt there will come a point when 3% life steal is flat out better than 959 loh..
So we should take your word for it? Cool.
If you take Newti's gear as an example he'd benefit more from 3% lifesteal than 959 loh. In all scenarios.
He has 215,472 dps buffed
SW(3s) 96962 avg dmg a second
Cyclone(3) 172378 avg dmg a second
FoT: TC 430944 avg dmg a second
= 700284 avg dmg or 8403 HPS per mob in small frontal cone
Potential Per mob OOR or behind you 3232 HPS
So we have
MAX LOH: 7193 HPS per target in small frontal cone
800 LOH: 6000 HPS per target in small frontal cone
MAX LS NEWTI GEAR: 8403 HPS per mob in small frontal cone
OOR or behind LULZ GEAR : 3232 HPS per mob in range of sweeping winds/cyclones but not thunderclap.
It sure looks like it's always better. I mean 7193 > 8403 right? Let's not forget damage can still go up at least 20k unbuffed or that there will be mobs that will give you HPS that LOH won't because of positional requirements.
edit in my original math I only calculated cyclones hitting 4 times, but apparently it can hit up to 6x. I haven't been able to test it but that would tip the scale sooner too.
I understand there are players advocating that LS is better than LoH but what they are forgetting is that you need to hit really hard to benefit from LS or have a lot of mob surrounding you.
For monks, I think a minimum of 65k unbuffed DPS is the sweet spot for LS to be superior compared to LoH, my ideal setup would be to have dual 3% LS and 400 (200 each ring) for best survivability unless I hit some godly DPS like Newti.
Im only using a single 2.80LS weapon as a replacement for my 825LoH.
So you agree with what I said then. Now while you say 65k unbuffed dps is the "sweet spot" you're also forgetting something. That would be the sweet spot in the scenario I posted. Which compared 2 perfect/800 loh weapons to 2 3% LS weapons.
Now if you were to only have 2 400 LOH weapons, well then the 3% LS weapons only need to do half of the original damage a sec to have the same results. This is actually around 35k dmg since my values were based on 70k unbuffed dmg.
So now you can see you need a GOOD amount of LOH to be better than life steal. This is considering quite a few monks are around 35k.
I also feel the break point is possibly sooner than that because 1 tick of sweeping winds or cyclone that isn't in thunder clap range will provide you with a lot more healing. This happens even more so with elites that run away and when it does, LOH just doesn't compare in that regard.
55k DPS unbuffed? That is just crazy! How the heck do you hit so hard? Maybe I am just still trying to figure this game out.
I am not picking any sides, just stating my experience.. Based on extended testing I still feel more comfortable with LoH in elite battles that I cannot melt down with in 6 seconds. The 600 life drained every 100k damage (for 3%LS only) is not best suited for my play style as compared to draining more than 1,500 per hit.. Maybe when I have a budget for like 150M per 3% weapon with 40-50% crit and an open socket, LS will be superior for my build.
Im actually having a hard time upgrading my weapons now due to the insane prices!
Well to me it sounds like you are using a 1 hander with low overall damage. So maybe it is better for you to have LOH on that slot.
I realize I'm nitpicking but since you're comparing 3% lifesteal to your loh. You should realize you can at max get 3597 HPS averaged loh at 2 aps including FoTs hidden IAS, which makes it 3aps. Which an averaged LOH of 1198 per hit, of course this is assuming you have 2aps and you have a perfect 959 loh weapon. Comparing a socket or including loh from other pieces of gear is not a fair comparison as you shouldn't choose between stacking loh vs stacking life steal. You should use whichever property is better in the game for that specific slot for your current setup.
I agree life steal needs a lot of damage to compete with high end LOH but you should realize that the less base loh a weapon has the less damage is needed to compete. Some examples *based on my previous conditions*
28k dmg, 3% LS > 320 loh
35k dmg, 3% LS > 400 loh
42k dmg, 3% LS > 480 loh
56k dmg, 3% LS > 640 loh
70k dmg, 3% LS > 800 loh
And it would be more important what your other gear is. 150m in gear > 150m on a weapon.
I would suppose a 1k dps axe can be considered low damage these days, Id also like to add that even on a single target I get more than 825 LoH.. 825 is my only LoH value from a single weapon.
I meant low char sheet damage... not weapon damage. Weapon damage is largely irrelevant unless you're actively managing your sweeping winds. An 800 dps weapon with 200 dex is the same damage as a 1000 dps weapon. So until you're talking the best of the best weapon damage isn't as important as the stats on the item. To further illustrate that for my gear a 535 dps weapon with 350 dex and 100% crit dmg + a socket is better than a 1000 dps weapon with a socket by about 685 char sheet dmg.
Also averaged means just that. For example you strike once with FoT:TC and you get a 75% proc from the initial hit and a 75% hit from the secondary effect. For a total of 1237 but that's only your first 2 hits, your 3rd hit is only 619. So Averaged it's 1055 per hit with your weapon, again if you have a LOH gem then you would have to remove that value and compare once again.
Now if you were using say FoT: Quickening it's 100% loh, 100% loh, 75%loh that's 825+825+619= 759 averaged loh per hit.
I also want to point out that I was tired earlier and said the max avg you could get per swing was 599, it's actually 1198. Again this is with a 1 hander only and not including gems or LOH from other slots. The rest is accurate though.
Well now we're getting into optimizing sweeping winds and if you're doing that you would want the dagger I posted with 535 dps with the 350dex and 100% base crit with a socket in your offhand and your other weapon in your main hand. That would serve you A LOT better than a 1000 dps off hand with a socket.
Or even swapping in a 2 hander for activating sweeping winds.
As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.
In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.
I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
True, this is what the paper comparison is missing. But even disregarding the hidden multipliers on the LoH, I cannot imagine how LS will actually be superior in terms of practical usage I mean you only drain 600HP per 100K damage delt, with my 825LoH I gain that per hit. But of course LS is cheaper.. A combination of both would be great.
If both of you are referring to the numbers I got I did account for the life on hit coefficients and picked the most favorable loh generator too. Which is why if you use anything but FoT:TC Life steal will get better faster. It averages 125% loh per hit while the next best is Wothf:FoF at 125.33% however that is slower than FoT:TC.
Link to LOH values based on runes.
https://docs.google....d=0&output=html
I know my first post that contained this info was long. But if you're going to compare anything you probably should have looked at the details and method rather than just the outcome. Else you're just regurgitating what you heard elsewhere.
*EDIT * Slightly off topic
Just a theory I have for 1.04 but if Wave of Light coefficients stay as they are but the spell gets either a damage increase or cost reduction, either of which I expect to happen,on top of 2handers being useful. LOH will actually be bad compared to life steal. Which is something you could never say with FoT:TC
I wasn't referring to any post specifically, but most people who math out LoH vs LS don't take those coefficients into account. Plus, while FoT:TC may be a favorable skill for use with LoH, I would believe that a different load out of skills might slightly favor LS. My point was that it's impossible to generalize one as better than the other when the LoH coefficients innately make it a situational measurement.
Also I would assume based on Blizzard's earlier statement that they would be buffing LS if it was obviously less powerful and used overall(which it is in many situations) that they will be making it stronger in one way or another eventually.
Oh, well I think I've shown the break point that life steal surpasses LOH for that 1 single property based on optimal conditions for LOH averaged out. If people don't understand how OP the loh coefficient is for fot:tc and use something like quickening thinking it will be the same. Well I don't know what to say.
I also advocate life steal as being viable and it will likely be even more so after 1.04. But I can't stress enough that either way that doesn't mean one is bad. People can use both, they don't have to pick between one or the other. Though I expect to see some more life steal items through legendaries. Maybe a stealskull or vamp gaze:)
Basically, you didn't read anything and just posted. Carry on.
Incorrect. Don't confuse "You didn't read anything" with "You didn't read MY post so you suck!". The fact is that yes, I did not catch your particular post or the post you previously referenced, because it was not the OP and I did not read every single post in the thread.
Also, if you're agreeing with me, there's no need to be such a giant asshole about it.