I've seen build centered around LoH and builds not even using it. I currently don't use and am in Act 4 inferno. If someone could elaborate its purpose becuase it seems to me that you can get more damage out of necks and rings and weapons if you don't search for it.
It'll certainly be a lot cheaper, but LoH adds in a constant flow of replenishing health. Even more so with higher attack speed. Replaces the need to stack heavy defenses.
Its hard to explain if you've never played with a good amount of it, but I will try!
The attraction is that it gets better and better as you get better. Let us try some made up numbers:
You have 30,000 hps and damage reduction making you get hit for roughly 3K damage every 2 seconds.
You have 1.5 attack a second and 200 life on hit.
As you attack, you take 3K damage every 2 seconds, you could stand in place and live for 20 seconds before dying. However, in the same 2 seconds you regain 600hp (3 attacks), so you effectively only take 2.4K damage every 2 seconds and could live for 25 seconds! 5 second living gained by that bit of LoH.
Now: 30Khp, damage reduction has you taking 3K damage every 2 seconds. Life on Hit of 400: 33.3 seconds.
Life On HIt of 800: 100 seconds. (Healing 2.4K health every 2 seconds)
Life On Hit of 1000: Infinite Seconds. (Healing 3K health every 2 seconds counters the 3K damage)
If you push LoH a bit higher and Damage reduction a bit better, you hit the point you no longer (effectively) take damage in many situations.
Obviously this is a highly hypothetical stand and fight against 1 monster situation. But factor in our normal health return skills, and the fact that some skills make LoH even better (FoT + Thunderclap increases attack speed, and also the third-hit knock back gets you some healing for everything in the area, which in packs becomes massive healing) and it is often even MORE attractive than this, not less. We always talk about EHP, well Life On Hit gives you more EHP every time you take a swing, and over time, its going to account for a huge health return.
I find Life On Hit lets me spend less time avoiding damage and more time dealing it. Being able to stand in Molten/Desecrate and pop a heal as an arcane beam floats over you and dropping that elite faster is great, and thanks in large part of LoH.
The sick part about LoH is that Cyclone triggers it. I have 32.5% crit chance and 1.65 atk speed, and with 15-20 cyclones out, that's a whole lot of healing.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was changed in 1.03a so that cyclones no longer trigger loh.
Didn't blizz say they want LoH to get high enough for players so they can feel like they've broken the game?
Close, but no. They want Lifesteal (%Damage to Life) to be broken.
Yeah. I don't see how that's ever gonna happen though, unless they make some major changes. The 80% penalty is just too big, and I doubt it'll ever be overcome
I've never heard of Cyclones triggering LoH... I've always heard that they don't. Are you sure they were triggering Loh before?
OP: LoH is a way to get health back that scales with attack speed, which used to be amazing. It's also only found on rings, ammies, and weapons, which means a single item can have a LOT, so a few pieces of gear can dramatically improve your life regen.
Also, it scales with the number of things attacking you, which nothing else does. It also is even better than it sounds because skills taht hit twice often give most of your LoH on each hit (Fists of THunder:Thunderclap is like this, 150% LoH on the first two hits even for just one target because of the cleave).
Try grabbing a blue amulet with 500+ Life on Hit and see how mcuh of a difference you think it makes.
The sick part about LoH is that Cyclone triggers it. I have 32.5% crit chance and 1.65 atk speed, and with 15-20 cyclones out, that's a whole lot of healing.
wtf are u serious? Anyone confirm or deny this? This would be tankalicious, Also, wouldn't blades work as well, or any of the runes for that matter?
Well the sweeping winds part of Cyclone definitely doesn't trigger LoH, but maybe the cyclone procs do. But the sheet in the recent monk guide posted on the front page specifically noted that Cyclone doesn't benefit from LoH.
Not that it matters though, get some crit and it does wonderful damage =)
It's exactly what it says, lifesteal gets a 80% penalty in inferno, i.e. 3% on a weapon will only leech 0.6%.
Yeah, but do you know how much that can mean though? My monk's output is about 20k, reaching 40k on critical hits. Go and do the math of 0.6 of 40,000.. its not too shabby, the reduction makes complete sense, or else it would be a very overpowered stat. Shame they didn't indicate the scaling anywhere in the game though.
0.6% of 40,000 is pretty shabby.
like 240?
that's on the 40k crits, so 120ish normally.
the reason it can end up good though is life steal is all damage, so if you're standing in the middle of 20 mobs with sweeping winds hitting them all (and possibly cyclones if you're running that rune) that 240hp becomes 4800hp per tick of sweeping winds, and that's before you start punching things.
Life on Hit is better right now, cause we aren't doing the DPS we should/eventually will be.
Damage converted to Life will be better once we start hitting harder.
Should Damage converted to Life not be up to par in a month or so (which it won't be, the math just doesn't support it), they will likely buff it (I could see them removing the difficulty penalty from it).
Their words, not mine, are that Damage converted to Life is one of those stats that breaks the game once you can make it work. However, when we only get 0.8% of the gain, which is NOT indicated anywhere in the UI or anything, it is a bit annoying.
Yes, Life on Hit has it's own reductions (each ability returns a different percent, based on area of the attack, targets hit, etc.), but it scales very well, very easily.
the reason it can end up good though is life steal is all damage, so if you're standing in the middle of 20 mobs with sweeping winds hitting them all (and possibly cyclones if you're running that rune) that 240hp becomes 4800hp per tick of sweeping winds, and that's before you start punching things.
Life on Hit is nearly the same.
Meteor - ~60% of Life on Hit returned per enemy hit, per Meteor (This applies to every Meteor except the Meteor Shower rune I believe)
So, if my LoH total is 1000, I get 600 back from each enemy hit by my single casting of Meteor.
If a skill can hit more targets, it is actually better for Life on Hit, than if it only hits one.
It's exactly what it says, lifesteal gets a 80% penalty in inferno, i.e. 3% on a weapon will only leech 0.6%.
Yeah, but do you know how much that can mean though? My monk's output is about 20k, reaching 40k on critical hits. Go and do the math of 0.6 of 40,000.. its not too shabby, the reduction makes complete sense, or else it would be a very overpowered stat. Shame they didn't indicate the scaling anywhere in the game though.
the reason it can end up good though is life steal is all damage, so if you're standing in the middle of 20 mobs with sweeping winds hitting them all (and possibly cyclones if you're running that rune) that 240hp becomes 4800hp per tick of sweeping winds, and that's before you start punching things.
Life on Hit is nearly the same.
Meteor - ~60% of Life on Hit returned per enemy hit, per Meteor (This applies to every Meteor except the Meteor Shower rune I believe)
So, if my LoH total is 1000, I get 600 back from each enemy hit by my single casting of Meteor.
If a skill can hit more targets, it is actually better for Life on Hit, than if it only hits one.
well, sweeping winds is more of a passive aoe, that's what i was going for.
i can't think of a good mage example, maybe the ice shield that does 100% weapon dmg to attackers?
life steal should give a heal from that whereas life on hit shouldn't because you didn't "hit" them.
i don't know if it works that way, but that seems to me to be blizzard's intent and reasoning.
i just use loh
the reason it can end up good though is life steal is all damage, so if you're standing in the middle of 20 mobs with sweeping winds hitting them all (and possibly cyclones if you're running that rune) that 240hp becomes 4800hp per tick of sweeping winds, and that's before you start punching things.
Yeah... that math isn't even remotely correct. The 240 hp number was based off his 40k crits, not sweeping winds ticks.
It's really very simple. Let's say you have an attack speed of 2.0, and can output 100k dps (real total dps, not what's shown in char tab).
Scenario 1: 800 LoH. Let's say you get 80% of that (varies a bit depending on what primary skill you use for attacks). That's 640 twice every second, meaning a total of 1280 every second. (In reality it's even more, because most primary skills attack faster than what the char screen says).
Scenario 2: 3% life steal. You only get 20% of this, meaning 0.6%. With an output of 100k dps, you'll be healing 600 every second.
So even with those numbers, you'd have to do more than 200k dps to break even with LoH. The only ones that can do 200k dps are pure glasscannons, and they get oneshot anyway so they got no use for lifesteal. And keep in mind the LoH numbers are low compared to what we see in game. I'm personally running with ~2 attack speed and 900 LoH, and I would estimate I get back 2-3k every second against single target.
the reason it can end up good though is life steal is all damage, so if you're standing in the middle of 20 mobs with sweeping winds hitting them all (and possibly cyclones if you're running that rune) that 240hp becomes 4800hp per tick of sweeping winds, and that's before you start punching things.
Yeah... that math isn't even remotely correct. The 240 hp number was based off his 40k crits, not sweeping winds ticks.
It's really very simple. Let's say you have an attack speed of 2.0, and can output 100k dps (real total dps, not what's shown in char tab).
Scenario 1: 800 LoH. Let's say you get 80% of that (varies a bit depending on what primary skill you use for attacks). That's 640 twice every second, meaning a total of 1280 every second. (In reality it's even more, because most primary skills attack faster than what the char screen says).
Scenario 2: 3% life steal. You only get 20% of this, meaning 0.6%. With an output of 100k dps, you'll be healing 600 every second.
So even with those numbers, you'd have to do more than 200k dps to break even with LoH. The only ones that can do 200k dps are pure glasscannons, and they get oneshot anyway so they got no use for lifesteal. And keep in mind the LoH numbers are low compared to what we see in game. I'm personally running with ~2 attack speed and 900 LoH, and I would estimate I get back 2-3k every second against single target.
The thing that you aren't accounting for is that we don't do exactly 100k dps, we have abilities that modify this damage aswell as passive AoE damage. Just Sweeping Wind is 20%*1.24 AoE dps, not counting Cyclones, that's 250 hp per target hit. Also, Fists of Thunder hits for 110% weapon damage +35% for your target + every mob around it.
You can't just claim that LoH > Lifesteal by math when you only account for spreadsheet DPS. LoH is very powerful, but you have to constantly hit your target for it to work. Lifesteal scales better with damage and will in the end outperform LoH, that's what I believe.
I don't really see your point. I estimate I do about 70k dps on my average geared monk. If I stand still and just tank an elite mob with 3 mil hp, it takes me something like 40-50 seconds to kill it. Well geared monks can certainly reach 100k dps output (and more).
I don't know why you're listing dmg from specific skills or anything of the kind. I was very specific in my post that I'm talking about real dps, and not what's shown in character screen.
The fact that life steal scales better than LoH is obvious. But we can't reach the kind of dps numbers required for life steal to overtake LoH.
What are your dmg stats? And are you farming act 1 with 48% dmg taken MoC?
I find it rather hard to believe you can pull off 140k dps (unless it's with MoC) and still have room to double or tripple that (without going complete glasscannon obviously).
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Ha. Bagstone.
The attraction is that it gets better and better as you get better. Let us try some made up numbers:
You have 30,000 hps and damage reduction making you get hit for roughly 3K damage every 2 seconds.
You have 1.5 attack a second and 200 life on hit.
As you attack, you take 3K damage every 2 seconds, you could stand in place and live for 20 seconds before dying. However, in the same 2 seconds you regain 600hp (3 attacks), so you effectively only take 2.4K damage every 2 seconds and could live for 25 seconds! 5 second living gained by that bit of LoH.
Now: 30Khp, damage reduction has you taking 3K damage every 2 seconds. Life on Hit of 400: 33.3 seconds.
Life On HIt of 800: 100 seconds. (Healing 2.4K health every 2 seconds)
Life On Hit of 1000: Infinite Seconds. (Healing 3K health every 2 seconds counters the 3K damage)
If you push LoH a bit higher and Damage reduction a bit better, you hit the point you no longer (effectively) take damage in many situations.
Obviously this is a highly hypothetical stand and fight against 1 monster situation. But factor in our normal health return skills, and the fact that some skills make LoH even better (FoT + Thunderclap increases attack speed, and also the third-hit knock back gets you some healing for everything in the area, which in packs becomes massive healing) and it is often even MORE attractive than this, not less. We always talk about EHP, well Life On Hit gives you more EHP every time you take a swing, and over time, its going to account for a huge health return.
I find Life On Hit lets me spend less time avoiding damage and more time dealing it. Being able to stand in Molten/Desecrate and pop a heal as an arcane beam floats over you and dropping that elite faster is great, and thanks in large part of LoH.
Close, but no. They want Lifesteal (%Damage to Life) to be broken.
OP: LoH is a way to get health back that scales with attack speed, which used to be amazing. It's also only found on rings, ammies, and weapons, which means a single item can have a LOT, so a few pieces of gear can dramatically improve your life regen.
Also, it scales with the number of things attacking you, which nothing else does. It also is even better than it sounds because skills taht hit twice often give most of your LoH on each hit (Fists of THunder:Thunderclap is like this, 150% LoH on the first two hits even for just one target because of the cleave).
Try grabbing a blue amulet with 500+ Life on Hit and see how mcuh of a difference you think it makes.
wtf are u serious? Anyone confirm or deny this? This would be tankalicious, Also, wouldn't blades work as well, or any of the runes for that matter?
Not that it matters though, get some crit and it does wonderful damage =)
0.6% of 40,000 is pretty shabby.
like 240?
that's on the 40k crits, so 120ish normally.
Life on Hit is better right now, cause we aren't doing the DPS we should/eventually will be.
Damage converted to Life will be better once we start hitting harder.
Should Damage converted to Life not be up to par in a month or so (which it won't be, the math just doesn't support it), they will likely buff it (I could see them removing the difficulty penalty from it).
Their words, not mine, are that Damage converted to Life is one of those stats that breaks the game once you can make it work. However, when we only get 0.8% of the gain, which is NOT indicated anywhere in the UI or anything, it is a bit annoying.
Yes, Life on Hit has it's own reductions (each ability returns a different percent, based on area of the attack, targets hit, etc.), but it scales very well, very easily.
Meteor - ~60% of Life on Hit returned per enemy hit, per Meteor (This applies to every Meteor except the Meteor Shower rune I believe)
So, if my LoH total is 1000, I get 600 back from each enemy hit by my single casting of Meteor.
If a skill can hit more targets, it is actually better for Life on Hit, than if it only hits one.
.6% is not .6 of 40,000, it's .006 X 40,000 = 240
well, sweeping winds is more of a passive aoe, that's what i was going for.
i can't think of a good mage example, maybe the ice shield that does 100% weapon dmg to attackers?
life steal should give a heal from that whereas life on hit shouldn't because you didn't "hit" them.
i don't know if it works that way, but that seems to me to be blizzard's intent and reasoning.
i just use loh
Yeah... that math isn't even remotely correct. The 240 hp number was based off his 40k crits, not sweeping winds ticks.
It's really very simple. Let's say you have an attack speed of 2.0, and can output 100k dps (real total dps, not what's shown in char tab).
Scenario 1: 800 LoH. Let's say you get 80% of that (varies a bit depending on what primary skill you use for attacks). That's 640 twice every second, meaning a total of 1280 every second. (In reality it's even more, because most primary skills attack faster than what the char screen says).
Scenario 2: 3% life steal. You only get 20% of this, meaning 0.6%. With an output of 100k dps, you'll be healing 600 every second.
So even with those numbers, you'd have to do more than 200k dps to break even with LoH. The only ones that can do 200k dps are pure glasscannons, and they get oneshot anyway so they got no use for lifesteal. And keep in mind the LoH numbers are low compared to what we see in game. I'm personally running with ~2 attack speed and 900 LoH, and I would estimate I get back 2-3k every second against single target.
I don't really see your point. I estimate I do about 70k dps on my average geared monk. If I stand still and just tank an elite mob with 3 mil hp, it takes me something like 40-50 seconds to kill it. Well geared monks can certainly reach 100k dps output (and more).
I don't know why you're listing dmg from specific skills or anything of the kind. I was very specific in my post that I'm talking about real dps, and not what's shown in character screen.
The fact that life steal scales better than LoH is obvious. But we can't reach the kind of dps numbers required for life steal to overtake LoH.
I find it rather hard to believe you can pull off 140k dps (unless it's with MoC) and still have room to double or tripple that (without going complete glasscannon obviously).