Monk's Defensive Passives

  • #1
    There are quite a few builds on here already on Monk's tanking capabilities, but I'm curious about a few things I've seen brought up in other places. This is also from an HC perspective. What I'm trying to do is see if we can decrease the number of "must have" passives.

    Firstly, Monk is a Dex class, and Dex gives you dodge iirc. Seize the Initiative also lets you use Dex for armor. And this is great, obviously, we get to increase our armor and dodge while increasing damage. In contrast, the Barb can increase his armor with Vitality, but that takes away from the damage capability, and it also means the Barb is more of a damage soaker, gets hit a lot, and needs to rely on lifesteal (basically why I came to the conclusion that the Monk is better defensively).

    What this does, though, is leave Monk with a pretty low Vitality pool unless you go there. I kinda wonder - how relevant is armor actually to the monk? Does he need THAT much (armor from Dex will be a lot)? Can this be compensated with a shield? Is Vitality more important for a dodger? What if player avoidance factors into this (i.e., Monk's kiting abilities)? And this won't apply to elemental attacks. Elemental attacks you still need the Vitality.

    I heard it expressed that dodge has a pretty low cap on it, so it isn't as useful in terms of spending passives on it (i.e., The Guardian's Path or Sixth Sense). Similarly, it's not that difficult for a Barb to get to the dodge cap, either. Anyone got any info on this? How easy it is to reach the dodge cap or the armor cap? And there are tons of skills that add to dodge on top of that. Considering you want Dex for your Monk I really do not see dodge being a problem to max.

    Then, we also have One With Everything. Someone suggested it doesn't help against poison or arcane. That's really not what I get from the description, but who knows? Obviously this gives a lot of room for customization.

    Pacifism may or may not be useful. Those effects are ugly but I'm not sure how frequent they actually are and how useful this is. Resolve is interesting, but seems underwhelming compared to everything else. Especially since Resolve relies on you being hit. I may be wrong.

    Near Death Experience is pretty much begging to be picked by an HC char. Is there any reason not to take this? 35% HP is pretty significant, especially on high vitality. It's probably the best death-skill of all classes. But I do wonder if the situations in which you'll die once will be those where you go ahead and die twice. I remember using Shallow Grave on Demented Shaman and aaaarrrrggghhhhhhhh is that not a pleasant experience at all and quite easy to just plain miss and not follow through with it.
  • #2
    Where did you hear dodge cap is low? to be honest I have not found anything saying there is a dodge cap.

    One with everything is a grate passive skill , However I see a problem with it. To use it to the best of its ability you need to stack one resistance. That could be expensive if you use the auction house or very time consuming if your farming for it.

    Resolve decreases the enemies damage when you hit them. Or at lest thats how I read it.

    Some people complain about the monk not having large offensive passives. Combination strike is the only one and to get the most out of it you need to use more generators witch in turn eats up your skill slots. I think its a good thing there are a lot of defensive passives on the monk. With the speed of the monks attacks any most should not have a problem keeping up in damage.

    End Of Line
  • #3
    Now when i think of it we all talk about builds - something we will stick to. This is so D2 thinking. Blizz gave us flexibility with the current skill/runesystem. Something doesnt work with SK on hell we switch the skill etc. I think there wont be Inferno build - i mean i beated inferno only with those skills. There will be like 10 build swaps in nightmare only. D3 play style will be flexible. We cant kill a boss we - switch skills till he die or we go farm some items switch skills and than he dies.
  • #4
    Overall I think there are four main "paradigm" for the monk survivability boost which one with it's own strengths and weakness.

    Dodge: The Monk has several ways to boosts his Dodge. It works almost like common Armor once in Diablo 3 Dodge works normaly against magical attacks. The real difference is that dodge has inherent variability. Take for exemple an Barbarian with 50% damage reduction from Armor and an monk with 50% Dodge. In terms of expected damage taken both classes are equal. however the barbarian allways take half the monster's damage while the monk ignore the damage 1/2 of the time and take the full damage in the other cases.
    This is really important difference in terms of gameplay. The "dodge monk" health bar will be really volatile: it stays full until it suddenly drops while the Barbarian's one drops more constantly. This volatility are dangerous: you have less time to drink potions, grab health globes and use defensive abilities. Also some hits that can be endure after the damage reduction but not without it will allways be handled by the barbarian but the monk has a set chance to simply die.
    However volatility have it's advantages too. Against really, really strong attacks a small chance to ignore is better then anything. Imagine an attack that will kill the barbarian even after the 50% damage reduction - the barbarian will allways die from that blow. But the monk still have 50% chance to survive, no matter how strong the attack is.
    Since the first is much more common then the later I think pure damage reduction is better choice overall despite the small advantages of dogde. However dodge has the advantage of beign associated with offensive stats: (1) increasing dodge via DEX also gives your %damage; (2) you can increase dodge by stacking critical hit chance and picking the Sixth Sense passive; (3) the Backlash rune in Mantra of Evasion. For an pratical view of what I'm saying play Path of Exile.
    Because of that I picture the "dodge monk" being somewhat an balance character: stacking huge amounts of DEX and/or CHC and getting survivability while doing so.

    Damage Reduction: Concusion Creepling Wave + Resolve = 52% damage reduction debuff. Thats freaking huge number for something you get with one active, one rune and one passive. This is far better then the individual benefict you get via Dodge (comparing 1 passive + 1 rune + 1 active skill). And as I argued before, damage reduction has no variability.
    This combo has severe limitation through. You have to debuff enemies which means you have to attack first. As long as you have a fast weapon I think you can ensure the debuff against melee enemies but the problem persist against bosses (wich you can't face all the time) and ranged monsters.
    An alternative damage reduction combo is Slipstream Tempest Rush + Resolve. This combo gives you 43.75% damage reduction against monsters that you attack first and 25% against all other monsters as long as you channel tempest rush. This might be an good alternative to reach and kill ranged enemies.
    Damage Reduction has greater values and no variability but you need to play in very specific way in order to pull out your debuffs and might have hard time against bosses's special attacks.

    Heal:

    Mobility:

    Later i finiush my post...
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #5
    @italofoca

    You are discussing invalid dodge. Nobody plays luck dodge characters. That's stupid. You will die. You just will. It's not even worth talking about. If you don't believe me, see Path of Exile. They got a lot of crap because they tried to make a 100% evasion character work and... it... does... not. You're just rolling dice all day even if you have 90% dodge.

    However volatility have it's advantages too. Against really, really strong attacks a small chance to ignore is better then anything. Imagine an attack that will kill the barbarian even after the 50% damage reduction - the barbarian will allways die from that blow. But the monk still have 50% chance to survive, no matter how strong the attack is.
    No. This is not even worth discussion.

    Dodge is ALWAYS coupled with some degree of armor or vitality, and when you do that, dodge actually becomes really powerful because it dramatically decreases overall damage you're taking. So I do not see anyone in their right mind relying on dodge alone. You need armor/vit to survive random hits.

    No HC char will roll luck on dodge.
    Quote from Rym
    Where did you hear dodge cap is low? to be honest I have not found anything saying there is a dodge cap.
    Eh. On reddit. I figured Blizzard said something about that.

    Quote from Rym
    One with everything is a grate passive skill , However I see a problem with it. To use it to the best of its ability you need to stack one resistance. That could be expensive if you use the auction house or very time consuming if your farming for it.
    Kinda depends on itemization I'd think. In DII, it wasn't difficult to get one resistance at all, IMO.
  • #6
    Equinox, I'm reading a tad hostility there, maybe I'm mis-reading it, but I think relaxing is a good place to start.

    On to some of your actual points, I believe you are pointing out a false choice. Armor will be present on all items of a given level. A teir 15 chest armor is going to have the same base armor for everyone. I am not sure if +armor is an affix, but even if it were, there would only be a competition between armor and dodge on single-affix items, which I don't think we need to concern ourselves with at lvl 60.

    I will agree that armor and dodge combine for a powerful survivability effect. I think dodge doesn't have a "cap" but does have diminishing returns. For some reason the following equation comes to mind:

    (1-X)*(1-Y)*...*(1-n)

    Where X,Y, ..., n are all different sources of dodge expressed as a decimal.

    So 25% dodge from a passive and 30% dodge from Dex and 10% dodge from items would give you

    (1-.25)(1-.30)(1-.10)= .4725 = 47.25% total dodge as an example.

    I also believe that Armor and Resistances will have diminishing returns, so you will want to spread your survivability investment out amongst each of them, then at some (arbitrary) damage reduction amount start (or finish) pumping HP.

    The Dex->Armor and Crit->Dodge talents are "boring" but effective since pumping offensive stats also provide survivability. Combine that with OwE, and only needing 1 resist (if possible to stack on high-end gear) leaves a lot of room for investing in other stats, including HP.
  • #7
    Quote from PantheraOnca
    Equinox, I'm reading a tad hostility there, maybe I'm mis-reading it, but I think relaxing is a good place to start.
    I get worked up when people oversimplify something I deliberately tried not to get oversimplified in that direction...

    Quote from PantheraOnca
    On to some of your actual points, I believe you are pointing out a false choice. Armor will be present on all items of a given level.
    My expectation considering how games like these are typically balanced is that this armor will be bare minimum and won't do shit. Otherwise, even the DH could tank decently. And with shields giving so much armor? I don't know.

    Quote from PantheraOnca
    The Dex->Armor and Crit->Dodge talents are "boring" but effective since pumping offensive stats also provide survivability. Combine that with OwE, and only needing 1 resist (if possible to stack on high-end gear) leaves a lot of room for investing in other stats, including HP.
    Yeah, just kinda cuts down your passives, too.
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