Combination Strike!

  • #141
    Quote from deleo

    Considering that, going a bit offtopic again. Is it so that using your formula the added effects of your dex' increased damage, followed by the modifiers from abilities add up additive, where they in the end get added multiplucative. Trying to make sense;

    ((weapondamage) * dex increased damage)*(combination strike + deadly R crimson)

    or would it be;

    ((weapondamage) * dex increased damage)*(combination strike)*(deadly R crimson)

    Uhm... that is a good question <_

    (XY%basewpndmg + ZV%wpndmg from buffs)*(%dex dmg + %CS dmg +%DRcrimson dmg)


    But I'm not sure... I will try to find the Info again...
  • #142
    Yes so as i was thinking, this makes the damage increase of mantra of conviction and alabaster rune in crippling wave alot better than people might think. Not only does it add towards the damage of other people it adds up after the previous buffs are added up.

    If the formula is;

    (XY%basewpndmg + ZV%wpndmg from buffs)*(%dex dmg + %CS dmg +%DRcrimson dmg)

    120% wpndmg. * (100% + 24% + 30% ) would end up at around 304%

    Switching CS for Cripplingwave alabaster (15%) and taking up resolve for example would give you;

    (XY%basewpndmg + ZV%wpndmg from buffs)*(%dex dmg +%DRcrimson dmg)*(extra dmg received by some random mob)

    120% * (100% + 30% ) * (15%) ends up on 317% (that is if my math is correct)

    Pretty importanté to know i guess when youre building up a spec. Notice how strong the 37% from crimson conviction aura would be over CS' 24%. Oh-o.

    Edit: should take this to another topic, this is derailing. ill post up a new one.
  • #144
    Quote from deleo

    I do hope you can stack up the effect with, lets say 123. then keep a 222 223 combo going on and still keep the effect from 1 up. Leaving 1 (for example deadly reach) for gimmicky situations and rolling the crimson rune effect.


    Am I interpreting what your hopes correctly when what I think you mean here is that, you:
    • 123 for 24% dmg bonus
    • Keep 16% of that rolling with 222, 223 combos
    • Go back up to 24% when you refresh the DR crimson buff?
    Or do you mean it would always remain at 24%, with 222, 223 combos?

    From what I've gathered as well as simply going by the wording of the passive, only alternating all 3 SG's would lets us stay up at 24% - Which in my opinion makes the passive ability in itself a bit counteractive to the class basic play style as a whole. If we want to run the passive at 24%, we will never or very rarely have time to do a full YYY combo, we bould be busy with rolling XYZ, YXZ, etc etc just to keep the buff alive - which in itself can have negative impacts on a few SG chains where strike 1 and 2 are very useful.

    So realistically (if my assumptions are correct), we will find ourselves averaging the 16% buff using 2 main SG's and hitting 24% for 3 sec every 30 sec (refreshing DR). Combine that with the amount of focus required (until you are grinding on auto-pilot) and we've got ourselves a passive skill, that really is not very passive at all. It requires constant active action for it to actually function, which when taking into account everything else you will have going on around you in inferno, might make it to much of a bother then gain to be using the passive at all.



    Quote from deleo

    Edit: should take this to another topic, this is derailing. ill post up a new one.

    Got a link for it? :)
  • #145
    its called monk combat mechanics, front page
  • #146
    Quote from Piffe

    So realistically (if my assumptions are correct), we will find ourselves averaging the 16% buff using 2 main SG's and hitting 24% for 3 sec every 30 sec (refreshing DR). Combine that with the amount of focus required (until you are grinding on auto-pilot) and we've got ourselves a passive skill, that really is not very passive at all. It requires constant active action for it to actually function, which when taking into account everything else you will have going on around you in inferno, might make it to much of a bother then gain to be using the passive at all.

    This was the main thing I was trying to get at before when we were getting off topic. Since Combination Strike is our only real damage buff to better our output we should at least start off by saying every monk should consider seriously taking the passive if they have 2 generators+ I would go so far as to even say that one generator alone is enough to really see a good benefit from it, but I digress.

    Before we did come to the conclusion that if one wanted to really see a good build with this it would use 3 generators. 4 Looked too high because of the sheer amount of switching around and lack of support skills to stay alive with. 2 is out of the question because the idea of the thread was to get the most bonus from the passive without sacrificing too much tank, but once again I have digressed from the point I am trying to make.

    When we stated that 3 generators would be one of the best builds was because of the good support and relativity simplistic rotations needed to really achieve what you needed. Even if these combos are easy to achieve I stated that it would be very hard to keep up your stacks all the time. Enemies have CC abilities (freezing, knockback, stun, etc), groups are spread out at times, some even run away from you and try to kite the player with slows (Matriarch Bones event and the other ghost boss). In essence trying to keep up 3 stacks is probably the most powerful build option available but it is plagued with the problem of being situational; I would go so far as to say it may be THE best damage dealing monk build but that has yet to really be seen.

    Also after getting behind the wheel both Tenhi and I agree that it is hard to chain the attacks because of how fast they tend to be with 1h weapons. It is just a struggle to do something as simple as 121 (though 112 is kinda easy because you can judge it better). I have personally tried to play as if I had this passive and I can say that it might be hard to do and it seems like the world is against us having the buff, however it is doable. It is only doable insofar as to say that you should try to get 3 stacks. I feel it is a little much to at least ask the average gamer to keep and hold 3 stacks. If you had a good bit of practice I can see it not being that hard to really achieve at all but I have to stress that it is not a build to be taken lightly. Going for 3 gen is going to be sloppy very often and I feel when doing this math you should not always just assume that you are dealing with 3 stacks rather show the numbers for 3 and 2 at least because it will be hard to get the stacks.

    Not saying we can't do the build. Just saying it may be much more difficult than it appears to really get the effect that we desire.
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    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #147
    Well as for combination strike, i think it might be one of the best damage modifiers to get together with conviction aura without having to rely on a skill to do it (like BoH/DR). As they -unlike breath of heaven + combination strike- add multiplicative.

    Agreed we havnt most likely seen the best dps monk build around yet (one that can actually solo inferno). But im atm thinking its heading towards a direction where you go almost full defence and combinate a ability dmg modifer like CW has (from 110% to 143%, unless this one is heavily nerfed havnt seen it yet), high dex, one dmg modifier like combination strike or deadly reach' 18% and conviction aura. This because non of these effects stack addative.

    The problem in this equation is that combination strike takes a passive slot that can be used by alot more buffs. Like azuresky said is quite sitiuational and requires you to combine 2-3 spirit generators to keep going even when using one step of an other spirit generator is not that interesting. (a single target attack while surrounded by mobs might actually lose you damage as crippling wave alone would have done more damage than the buffed effect gives you).

    Im really curious atm to how keeping the buff rolling works and how some of the other skills and runes are 'nerfed'.
  • #148
    Quote from deleo

    This because non of these effects stack addative.

    But now with the nerf of patch 13 the amounts stats increase on the damage buffs have all been decreased! The real losses started happening around +50%, where any additional stats after about +50% resulted in small gains compared to what you put in. You would feel that putting +stats into these already buffed up stats was inefficient. Now I feel that with smaller +damage buffs I am free to stack more of them because I might not be hitting that threshold where I'm wasting buffs. I noticed that in the beta the buff on the deadly reach crimson rune was decreased...

    Quote from deleo

    The problem in this equation is that combination strike takes a passive slot that can be used by a lot more buffs.

    It totally deserves to be a passive slot because it's activation would be very passive, for me at least. When I played the monk it felt really natural form me to mix up generators into combos. It didn't feel right when I wasn't doing it and besides generators will end up playing a central role in how you play the build. Most of your attacks will be generators and they are where so many good elements of the monk can be found.

    There are certain generators that may not be so great for combination strike, like sweeping wing. Otherwise, I think for most monk builds this will be a good damage buffing passive because you will be in combo mode for a lengthy duration of your fights.
  • #149
    Quote from AFd3

    But now with the nerf of patch 13 the amounts stats increase on the damage buffs have all been decreased! The real losses started happening around +50%, where any additional stats after about +50% resulted in small gains compared to what you put in. You would feel that putting +stats into these already buffed up stats was inefficient. Now I feel that with smaller +damage buffs I am free to stack more of them because I might not be hitting that threshold where I'm wasting buffs. I noticed that in the beta the buff on the deadly reach crimson rune was decreased...

    Nerfs happen across the board and yet the passive was untouched. Actually that should mean the value of the damage from the passive went up not down! Every number was brought down by some degree and yet the passive remains the same obviously for good reason. The passive itself may not have been as powerful as they intended and by lowering the stats slightly getting those numbers Monks would have to pull before the nerf may require this passive to be a much more necessary part of the build.

    This is just conjecture about why the nerfs happened. It could be very well that they were nerfed for a different reason. Still +% damage is a powerful buff. Before or after the buffs it should be giving the same +% buff. Basically if Monks were doing more damage than any other class and were nerfed because of it that does not mean that +% damage is any less powerful than it was before if it was too powerful! Yes it is less but less of a number that is balanced properly is still a substantial amount. If they really felt the nerfs would effect it too much they would have obviously buffed the passive.

    Also on that note Bashock stated that since patch 13 hit pretty much they are devoting themselves to tuning the game for the release. From now until that time we will probably see little tweaks and what not to balance out anything that was thrown out of balance, or never was balanced in the first place, by the recent patch.
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  • #150
    Also note that having to get to the 24% dmg modifier youd actually have to combine 3 different moves that might have no aoe or worse scaling than one you can spam. You would be losing damage to actually keep the 24% running. Irony.

    Running some quick math assuming youre gonna use a 3 generator combo consisting of WoHF/CW/DR versus CW spam without combostrikes. This makes the weapondmg increase rune of CW actually worth it.

    3 hits - WohF 125% weapondmg, 110% weapondmg, 100% weapondmg.
    3 hits - CW 143% x3

    100dmg weapon, assuming 800dex both have mantra and deadly reach for 2 is runed

    1) 100 * 1,43 * 3 = 429 , 429 * dex ( 800% ) * 20% (conviction) = 4118
    2) 100 * 1,25 + 100 * 1,10 + 100 * 1 = 325, 325 * dex ( 800% ) * dr (18%) + cs (24%) * 20% (conviction) = 4430

    Considering CW is a cleave/aoe attack and in the 3 combo of the other there are 1 single target and 1 semi aoe ability i dare to say this might actually even out or turn into CWs favour. In this situation, all i used in spec 1 is a runed CW and mantra of conviction. In spec 2 i used 3 combo abilities, 1 runed, mantra of conviction and 1 passive. Seeing combos are really one of the biggest damage contributors im not really impressed by the dmg. The amount of investment spec 2 now has to bring in order to actually beat spec 1 handsdown is just crazy. You could bring in palmstrike, but this is easily done in the other spec aswell for overall less commitment.

    I know this math is far from complete, and you could dance around it and find ways to make combo strikes 'worth it' but if the mangle rune gives the weapondmg it gives before patch 13 (i see not why they shouldnt, most other classes get similair effects) id rather go with that seeing the little investment i have to do to create a solid dmg output when generating spirit. Imagine if i actually would take a damage modifier or 2 with the CW spec to get on par with the other spec.
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