Combination Strike!

  • #81
    Quote from AFd3

    Quote from 1up_Mush

    There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.


    Compressing the enemies is going to so helpful in maximizing the damage of my crippling wave and exploding palm generators. You are always gambling with getting overrun which means you need to planning your moves in advance, know exactly how many enemies you ca successfully take on.


    Game's not about damage it's about survival. None of us really know how hard this game will be but I have a strong feeling that it will require every type of class have to seriously take into account survival. The original point was not if Cyclone Strike is powerful. It was weighing the option of adding some different form of sustain that would do more for less. We understand the move is powerful and that pulling the enemies is a great idea but that leads to the processes of min-maxing stats to get damage. Impressive numbers mean one thing, but a good player survives to DPS another day.

    Remember you don't do damage if you die my friend.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #82
    Quote from azuresky808


    Game's not about damage it's about survival. None of us really know how hard this game will be but I have a strong feeling that it will require every type of class have to seriously take into account survival. The original point was not if Cyclone Strike is powerful. It was weighing the option of adding some different form of sustain that would do more for less. We understand the move is powerful and that pulling the enemies is a great idea but that leads to the processes of min-maxing stats to get damage. Impressive numbers mean one thing, but a good player survives to DPS another day.

    Remember you don't do damage if you die my friend.

    I personally don't like cyclone strike for the reason it brings potentially lots of enemies to you rather then you picking them off. Is it just me or does obsidian rune for cyclone strike seem to be the most common rune?

    End Of Line
  • #83
    I would prefer having more utility as well. In no way was my intend to show that this build was o'mighty at all. The only thing i wanted to see is if it would be possible to achieve keeping up the buffs of spirit generators with a 4 gen build. And the what could possibly fit in as other abilities to fill in for the rest.

    I have myself more preference over 2-3 generator builds as i think there is a lot more versatility to them. A 4 generator build gets you into a pattern which would be hard to get out and i don't think that it would be that viable in inferno because of this fact. I don't like CS for the same reason as guys don't like it, it will most likely get you into some hell one day or another. The way i would be using CS would probably be with lashing tail kick as it frees the space for you once you've pulled as i mentionned in one of my post. The crimson rune could definetly be a good one also but then, it turns holy damage into fire and damage will probably be mitigated furthermore.

    Again, my purpose was not to find the optimal build but rather to check if it was possible at all to chain generators and keep the buffs going.
  • #84
    Quote from Rym

    I personally don't like cyclone strike for the reason it brings potentially lots of enemies to you rather then you picking them off. Is it just me or does obsidian rune for cyclone strike seem to be the most common rune?


    Yeah its one of the most common runes... and for a good reason. Just compare CS to BoH... lets take 150 Spirit spend as a base.

    BoH (unruned) - 3 * (9490 - 14235)  = 28470 - 42705 HP = 123.13 - 284.7 HP/Spirit
    CS (obsidian) - 2 * 21352           = 42704 HP = 284.69 HP/Spirit
    BoH (indigo)  - 3 * (12337 - 18505) = 37011 - 55515 HP = 264.74 - 370.1 HP/Spirit 


    If you look at this you can see that CS is as good as the best possible unruned BoH Heal... or just 12811 HP (or 85 HP/Spirit) worse than the best BoH (indigo) Heal.You get a better AoE (24y vs 12y for BoH) AND you get 2*275%dmg on top... that makes obsidian CS so good. IMHO too good... but then again they didnt change the heal for obsidian CS with the last big patch... so I guess its intended.
  • #85
    Who knows CS could be a total flop but its definitely something I want to try. The healing is actually the only thing that draws me in to CS other than the obsidian rune-stone I would prefer a different skill. I'll be using my generators most of the time thats what combination strike is for. So I'm guessing bitting off more than you could chew is going to be the worst part about the skill. I'm still willing to give it shot especially in something like the main build I'm imagining, in my sig. I plan to use evasion a lot while dropping combos and want to use sword & shield for the armor and socket(s).
  • #86
    Quote from Tenhi

    Quote from Rym

    I personally don't like cyclone strike for the reason it brings potentially lots of enemies to you rather then you picking them off. Is it just me or does obsidian rune for cyclone strike seem to be the most common rune?


    Yeah its one of the most common runes... and for a good reason. Just compare CS to BoH... lets take 150 Spirit spend as a base.

    BoH (unruned) - 3 * (9490 - 14235)  = 28470 - 42705 HP = 123.13 - 284.7 HP/Spirit
    CS (obsidian) - 2 * 21352		   = 42704 HP = 284.69 HP/Spirit
    BoH (indigo)  - 3 * (12337 - 18505) = 37011 - 55515 HP = 264.74 - 370.1 HP/Spirit 


    If you look at this you can see that CS is as good as the best possible unruned BoH Heal... or just 12811 HP (or 85 HP/Spirit) worse than the best BoH (indigo) Heal.You get a better AoE (24y vs 12y for BoH) AND you get 2*275%dmg on top... that makes obsidian CS so good. IMHO too good... but then again they didnt change the heal for obsidian CS with the last big patch... so I guess its intended.


    Supposedly there are still changes being made to the rune system. I have a feeling they did not change some of these runes like the one in question just because they are not done getting the numbers correct. They have mentioned that there will be a new calculator with more accurate amounts for the rune system. I guess we will have to wait and see for that one. I would say something like Cyclone Strike would be best for a dedicated tank role in multiplayer. Being able to control mobs that well has its redeeming qualities.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #87
    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from AFd3

    Quote from 1up_Mush

    There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.


    Compressing the enemies is going to so helpful in maximizing the damage of my crippling wave and exploding palm generators. You are always gambling with getting overrun which means you need to planning your moves in advance, know exactly how many enemies you ca successfully take on.


    Game's not about damage it's about survival. None of us really know how hard this game will be but I have a strong feeling that it will require every type of class have to seriously take into account survival. The original point was not if Cyclone Strike is powerful. It was weighing the option of adding some different form of sustain that would do more for less. We understand the move is powerful and that pulling the enemies is a great idea but that leads to the processes of min-maxing stats to get damage. Impressive numbers mean one thing, but a good player survives to DPS another day.

    Remember you don't do damage if you die my friend.
  • #88
    Maybe this could be some good survival build while still integrating CS into it. Just toying around but it definetly seems ok if you can be carefull with Cs and not over use it.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#eUYWQg!dVX!cYaccY

    The synergy between the obsidian mystic allie and the indigo mantra of healing. It gives a good boost to your shield. And the passives are also great for survival.
  • #89
    It has waaaay more surviveability. I was really talking about switching maybe 1 skill to tank not change the entire thing. Still I like the amount of tank it has for a tanky character. Honestly that is one of the main things that I like about the monk is the idea of heal/avoidance tanking instead of brute force like the Barb does. I have had quite a few tank type of builds that take alabaster on Lashing Tail. I really like that combo imho.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #90
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    Maybe this could be some good survival build while still integrating CS into it. Just toying around but it definetly seems ok if you can be carefull with Cs and not over use it.

    http://us.battle.net...YWQg!dVX!cYaccY

    The synergy between the obsidian mystic allie and the indigo mantra of healing. It gives a good boost to your shield. And the passives are also great for survival.


    Looks like a strong build. Draw them in with cs, get exploding palm on a few enemies and then blow them back into the crowd to explode with lashing tail-kick.
    I would disagree with a few choices made.

    1. Mantra of healing has to be my least favorite mantra. I healing power will just have a dampening effect of the damage taken but not a very big one. I think mantra of evasion will end up reducing more damage especially for strong units where they might be doing over 500 dmg per strike. Although the indigo rune and obsidian (+30% vitality!!!!) are actually good defensive choices, giving you time to breath. I feel mantra of conviction with a alabaster rune should give you at least some defensive stats while giving a damage boost that I feel will balance out this build better, because of the generators you chose wont be giving you the greatest dps. I think It's just that I feel mantra of healing isn't all that great.

    2. Near death experience passive is something I would only use in hardcore where you will be super careful about what enemies you aggro. In normal play I would prefer a passive that is helping me out most (if not all) of the time. The passives that are activated under specific rare situations feel like a waste to me. Specifically for your build I think I would put one with everything or resolve. If you had resolve with the conviction (alabaster) mantra your crippling strikes would be all the more crippling.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#eUYWQR!daX!cYacca
  • #91
    Quote from AFd3

    Quote from 1up_Mush

    Maybe this could be some good survival build while still integrating CS into it. Just toying around but it definetly seems ok if you can be carefull with Cs and not over use it.

    http://us.battle.net...YWQg!dVX!cYaccY

    The synergy between the obsidian mystic allie and the indigo mantra of healing. It gives a good boost to your shield. And the passives are also great for survival.


    Looks like a strong build. Draw them in with cs, get exploding palm on a few enemies and then blow them back into the crowd to explode with lashing tail-kick.
    I would disagree with a few choices made.

    1. Mantra of healing has to be my least favorite mantra. I healing power will just have a dampening effect of the damage taken but not a very big one. I think mantra of evasion will end up reducing more damage especially for strong units where they might be doing over 500 dmg per strike. Although the indigo rune and obsidian (+30% vitality!!!!) are actually good defensive choices, giving you time to breath. I feel mantra of conviction with a alabaster rune should give you at least some defensive stats while giving a damage boost that I feel will balance out this build better, because of the generators you chose wont be giving you the greatest dps. I think It's just that I feel mantra of healing isn't all that great.

    2. Near death experience passive is something I would only use in hardcore where you will be super careful about what enemies you aggro. In normal play I would prefer a passive that is helping me out most (if not all) of the time. The passives that are activated under specific rare situations feel like a waste to me. Specifically for your build I think I would put one with everything or resolve. If you had resolve with the conviction (alabaster) mantra your crippling strikes would be all the more crippling.

    http://us.battle.net...YWQR!daX!cYacca


    Mantra of evasion would also be probably really good if runed with obsidian since it as a great synergy with "seize the initiative" passive. Then you could swap around 'mystic allie" with something else. That's a good point. And yes mantra of conviction with alabaster is a really good one also. I still think that mantra of healing is quite nice also. If you think about it, when activated, it heals as much as breath of heaven (without rune) after 3 sec. All this will need testing to see what would definetly be best but they are 3 very nice options.
  • #92
    I love Mantra of Healing myself. I have two tank builds. One using dodge to tank and the other using healing. I will post them in a little bit I just got home so you will have to give me an hour or so to make a decent response to you.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #93
    Quote from azuresky808

    I love Mantra of Healing myself. I have two tank builds. One using dodge to tank and the other using healing. I will post them in a little bit I just got home so you will have to give me an hour or so to make a decent response to you.

    I prefer to dodge the damage then take it and have to heal back the health . Thats just my opinion tho. I hope to see your build in one place or another.

    End Of Line
  • #94
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#eWXQSb!ZWV!YYacaZ

    Found it. I am thinking of going to two generators but I really do not know exactly what I want or where to go with it. Input would be lovely honestly.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #95
    Quote from azuresky808

    http://us.battle.net...XQSb!ZWV!YYacaZ

    Found it. I am thinking of going to two generators but I really do not know exactly what I want or where to go with it. Input would be lovely honestly.


    - You got one nice synergy: "Mantra of evasion" indigo with "sixth sense. Also, if you dual-wield, this would also synergize well thanks to the 10% increased dodge chance.

    - I would prefer obsidian over indigo for "crippling wave". But, if you could successfully use it to kite and keep your distance while generating spirit, it could be interesting.

    - I would never go for "near death experience" without "exalted soul. Since you get 35% spirit back from NDE, exalted soul makes it more effective giving you a 35 extra spirit (87.5 instead or 52.5) when you get back from the dead. This can come handy if you where already in a troublesome situation. You probably should drop NDE for "seize the initiative". You will most likely boost up your dexterity as much as you can (extra dodge) and try to improve your crit chance to a maximum (sixth sense).

    - I really like "serenity even if it is on a 45sec cooldown and the alabaster rune will most likely be deadly if you pull out a lot of mobs with cyclone strike just before so that you take a hard beat.

    Need to wait and see how "cyclone strike" will work out with "breath of heaven" following since it is spirit consuming. When you get short on spirit after usin CS-BOH combo and serenity is on cd, you will be down to using only "crippling wave" which could end up being troublesome. The "mystic allie" as no synergies, it's not bad at all but it could be replaced for something else if needed but i do think that this will definetly come handy in hell mode. I recall playing a javazon in D2 and i could not really go on without a valkirie allie in early nightmare and hell runs. I guess this allie might prove to be very usefull in D3 as well.
  • #96
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    Quote from azuresky808

    http://us.battle.net...XQSb!ZWV!YYacaZ

    Found it. I am thinking of going to two generators but I really do not know exactly what I want or where to go with it. Input would be lovely honestly.


    - You got one nice synergy: "Mantra of evasion" indigo with "sixth sense. Also, if you dual-wield, this would also synergize well thanks to the 10% increased dodge chance.

    - I would prefer obsidian over indigo for "crippling wave". But, if you could successfully use it to kite and keep your distance while generating spirit, it could be interesting.

    - I would never go for "near death experience" without "exalted soul. Since you get 35% spirit back from NDE, exalted soul makes it more effective giving you a 35 extra spirit (87.5 instead or 52.5) when you get back from the dead. This can come handy if you where already in a troublesome situation. You probably should drop NDE for "seize the initiative". You will most likely boost up your dexterity as much as you can (extra dodge) and try to improve your crit chance to a maximum (sixth sense).

    - I really like "serenity even if it is on a 45sec cooldown and the alabaster rune will most likely be deadly if you pull out a lot of mobs with cyclone strike just before so that you take a hard beat.

    Need to wait and see how "cyclone strike" will work out with "breath of heaven" following since it is spirit consuming. When you get short on spirit after usin CS-BOH combo and serenity is on cd, you will be down to using only "crippling wave" which could end up being troublesome. The "mystic allie" as no synergies, it's not bad at all but it could be replaced for something else if needed but i do think that this will definetly come handy in hell mode. I recall playing a javazon in D2 and i could not really go on without a valkirie allie in early nightmare and hell runs. I guess this allie might prove to be very usefull in D3 as well.


    When i create my builds, i do it in order from left to right, Creating a system in the order that i will use them in. for example 1,2,3,4,5,6 with 1 and 2 being left and right click. When i Create my builds i think of a goal in mind, whether i want to go full dodger, Full Damage, Damage reduction, a healer or even a mix. So when i pick my skills i pick ones that will compliment each other and not just be all over the place because they sounds cool or look cool. Here is an example of one of my many builds
    • http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#cURZjW!aYU!ZbZZZc This build is based on Damage amplifying moves, To produce at least a bonus of 37%Dmg to a maximum of 102%Dmg. Plus Spirit Regain with exploding palm and the ability to heal while doing all this damage through soothing breeze, and transcendence. On top of that, every enemy you hit will reduce their damage by 30% and all your resistances are equal to your highest. Also if you had to rely on a merc in diablo 2 hell, what kinda pansy are........ nm thats besides the point. the point is you need to find what you will want and perfect it.
  • #97
    This may be a bit of a digression from the topic but not totally because it does have a lot to do with the play style of a conversationalist. I did a little experiment to test the viability of spamming the 3 second bonus of mantras. The cost of mantras is the same but I used the evasion mantra. What I did was only use the combo attacks to make an offensive push while trying to keep the 3 second bonus of the mantra going.When using different generators in the combo the spirit generation was optimal but I still managed to keep the mantra going almost all the time. When I only used exploding palm as the generator I managed to keep the mantra-bonus going all the time AND at the same time slowly saved up enough spirit to fill the reservoir.

    How many of you think you will incorporate a play style like this into your build. For the build I'm thinking about I think I will try to keep the mantra-bonus going as long as possible, especially the evasion-bonus right after I cast cyclone strike.

    For build where spirit generators play a key role in your offense I think maintaining the bonus during the toughest part of battles is going to be really advantageous.
  • #98
    Quote from AFd3

    This may be a bit of a digression from the topic but not totally because it does have a lot to do with the play style of a conversationalist. I did a little experiment to test the viability of spamming the 3 second bonus of mantras. The cost of mantras is the same but I used the evasion mantra. What I did was only use the combo attacks to make an offensive push while trying to keep the 3 second bonus of the mantra going.When using different generators in the combo the spirit generation was optimal but I still managed to keep the mantra going almost all the time. When I only used exploding palm as the generator I managed to keep the mantra-bonus going all the time AND at the same time slowly saved up enough spirit to fill the reservoir.

    How many of you think you will incorporate a play style like this into your build. For the build I'm thinking about I think I will try to keep the mantra-bonus going as long as possible, especially the evasion-bonus right after I cast cyclone strike.

    For build where spirit generators play a key role in your offense I think maintaining the bonus during the toughest part of battles is going to be really advantageous.


    I think I would only mantra weave this heavily if the output/tanking is really necessary to survival of a particular pull. I think the ability to be able to not only keep up the mantra but also generate extra spirit on the side is nice but I also feel spending it on an attack might give you an 'equal' bonus. Look at it this way is the 20% bonus from Conviction for the next 3 sec better than using an attack that does ALMOST 300% wep damage like Lashing Tail with crimson?

    What I'm getting as is maybe this bonus, at least with the Conviction example, is not as stellar as you might think. I have a feeling that, although it may be more powerful to use the Mantra, having to weave it into the attacks will prove to be a difficult task especially if it pertains to the topic at hand about Combination Strike. However there are some interesting choices of runes for the Mantras that make their activation very powerful.

    I guess it may all come down to personal preference seeing that the damage output potential is close. I myself don't see casting it so often unless I am tanking in which case it may very well be vital to success.

    @1up Ya I have the same feelings about NDE really. I built that a while back so I really did not look closely before I posted it to be honest.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#hWiQSb!ZWY!ZYZcaZ

    After taking what you said into account and because I wanted to make some personal changes myself. The attack speed slow debuff works against the rune that was in Mantra of Evasion so I changed the generator to Sweeping Wind. Also your point about Breath of Heaven/Cyclone Strike spirit usage might be a problem so I dropped Breath for a more focused single target generator for bosses and smaller pulls. Plus the rune gives it some extra reach which might come in handy depending on how the game implements it.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #99
    Quote from AFd3

    This may be a bit of a digression from the topic but not totally because it does have a lot to do with the play style of a conversationalist. I did a little experiment to test the viability of spamming the 3 second bonus of mantras. The cost of mantras is the same but I used the evasion mantra. What I did was only use the combo attacks to make an offensive push while trying to keep the 3 second bonus of the mantra going.When using different generators in the combo the spirit generation was optimal but I still managed to keep the mantra going almost all the time. When I only used exploding palm as the generator I managed to keep the mantra-bonus going all the time AND at the same time slowly saved up enough spirit to fill the reservoir.

    How many of you think you will incorporate a play style like this into your build. For the build I'm thinking about I think I will try to keep the mantra-bonus going as long as possible, especially the evasion-bonus right after I cast cyclone strike.

    For build where spirit generators play a key role in your offense I think maintaining the bonus during the toughest part of battles is going to be really advantageous.


    I think that there will definetly be a cooldown on mantras upon game release. Take for example the bonus from "mantra of healing", it heals as much as a unruned "breath of heaven" over 3 sec but for half the cost. Also, if you where using the indigo rune on this same mantra, you could basically keep up the shield going almost forever. I really doubt that there won't be any cooldowns on mantras.
  • #100
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    I think that there will definetly be a cooldown on mantras upon game release. Take for example the bonus from "mantra of healing", it heals as much as a unruned "breath of heaven" over 3 sec but for half the cost. Also, if you where using the indigo rune on this same mantra, you could basically keep up the shield going almost forever. I really doubt that there won't be any cooldowns on mantras.


    I dont think they will re-add CDs for the Mantras. IMHO they will change some runes e.g. Indigo Healing... I would guess they will add a CD on the rune. Same with things like the healing on Mantra of Healing... I would guess that they rather change the amount of healing that reintroduce the CD for the whole skill. If you think about it they changed the Mantras from CD -> no CD because they felt like a 4th passive... so I dont see the point in reintroducing the CD Oo they would again feel like a 4th passive.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes