Combination Strike!

  • #61
    Quote from Tenhi

    About the Attackspeed "limit" and not letting it rampage like it did in D2... its kinda old (Patch 4) but the DH here has an Attackspeed of 2.38 Attacks/sec.

    And that is with lvl13 and only lvl13 gear :)


    My lvl 13 DH even with stacking attack speed is having trouble breaking 2aps. I have a feeling it will act kinda like wow. As you level and get better gear it will require more and more attack speed to reach the same number. Also I may be wrong, got in the beta after patch 10 so I have not been keeping a close eye on everything, but didn't they change many of the mechanics for the DH since then. On top of that I also read that the stat system was stripped down and changed quite a few times during the beta.

    Quote from Axtroz

    changed my build to get more out of my combo strike only attacks
    http://us.battle.net...eUiX!ZXg!aacaZb


    I still don't feel the extra 16% dps is worth loosing two skill slots. You lose a huge amount of utility. Also dropping only one of those punches for the damage Mantra would provide more damage. Instead of getting 40% for all 5 punches you will get 52% for 4 punches and the mantra.
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  • #62
    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from Tenhi

    About the Attackspeed "limit" and not letting it rampage like it did in D2... its kinda old (Patch 4) but the DH here has an Attackspeed of 2.38 Attacks/sec.

    And that is with lvl13 and only lvl13 gear :)


    My lvl 13 DH even with stacking attack speed is having trouble breaking 2aps. I have a feeling it will act kinda like wow. As you level and get better gear it will require more and more attack speed to reach the same number. Also I may be wrong, got in the beta after patch 10 so I have not been keeping a close eye on everything, but didn't they change many of the mechanics for the DH since then. On top of that I also read that the stat system was stripped down and changed quite a few times during the beta.


    There are a few variables that have changed since then. It could be that gear does not have quite as much increase attack speed as it did in patch 4. The scaling with levels ratio could have changed.



    Quote from Axtroz

    changed my build to get more out of my combo strike only attacks
    http://us.battle.net...eUiX!ZXg!aacaZb

    For the extra 16% in damage there are better easier ways to get that damage and have more survivability.

    End Of Line
  • #63
    Yes you are right, but my intention was to make a viable build around maximizing Combination Strike and not just implementing this passive into an optimal build.
  • #64
    Hmm... yeah they changed some core things with patch 10... so a patch 4 vid isnt the best indicator. I think the max +Attackspeed you can get on lvl13 gear is now lower. But the core stats (Dex etc) have no influence on the attackspeed. The same goes for "the scaling with levels ratio could have changed"... there is no scaling if you get %based increases :) +1% is the same for lvl 1 and for lvl13 (its not like its in WoW with Haste rating...).

    You can look up the affixes (some of them... and remember that its only datamined) here:

    Haste - http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affix/haste (flat bonus)
    Haste - http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affix/haste (% bonus)

    IIRC in the first few beta patches you could find the 2nd stage (4-5% attackspeed)... now its only 2-3% attackspeed. But I'm not sure. Then again if you add the best flat bonus 0.25 Attack/sec to a Fist Weapon with 1.4 base Attack/sec you end with 1.65 Attacks/sec.... now add 15% for DWing and the 48% for 3 Stacks from Obsidian WotHF (that is btw only with a lvl4 Rune... with a lvl 7 rune its even more attackspeed). Also if you add an Amulet with +17% Attackspeed you get even more Oo If you look at the list +% Attackspeed can spawn on Rings/Gloves/Amulet... thats 4 Items (2 Rings) that can spawn with +17% Attackspeed.

    The only way to stop huge numbers is to implement a hard cap for haste... and I'm not sure if they would do something like this.


    So... all that aside. I was thinking about Combination Strike for my own build... do you guys think its a good passive if you only use 2 Spirit Gens? Its basicly the decision between some of the passives. I really want Seize the Initiative and Transcendence for now... other intresting passives would be Resolve, Sixth Sense and One with Everything. The question is, is 16% increased damage (2 Gens) worth the same as -30%dmg, 50%crit as dodge or resistances :/
  • #65
    Quote from Tenhi

    So... all that aside. I was thinking about Combination Strike for my own build... do you guys think its a good passive if you only use 2 Spirit Gens? Its basicly the decision between some of the passives. I really want Seize the Initiative and Transcendence for now... other intresting passives would be Resolve, Sixth Sense and One with Everything. The question is, is 16% increased damage (2 Gens) worth the same as -30%dmg, 50%crit as dodge or resistances :/


    I actually like the build the way it is. Personally not a fan of Tempest Rush but it is a powerful move when used correctly. You are already using Conviction. Between that and all the defensive passives you have you should be quite hard to kill. Also the ally, who is just sexy.

    If you were to change something I would change Seize. Only because you are already lowering their damage with the mantra. Taking either more armor makes the dodge less of a good stat but taking more dodge makes armor less of a good stat. I guess it would come down to whatever gives less of a bonus and switch that.
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  • #66
    Im back to post again!
    Quote from Tenhi


    IIRC in the first few beta patches you could find the 2nd stage (4-5% attackspeed)... now its only 2-3% attackspeed. But I'm not sure. Then again if you add the best flat bonus 0.25 Attack/sec to a Fist Weapon with 1.4 base Attack/sec you end with 1.65 Attacks/sec.... now add 15% for DWing and the 48% for 3 Stacks from Obsidian WotHF (that is btw only with a lvl4 Rune... with a lvl 7 rune its even more attackspeed). Also if you add an Amulet with +17% Attackspeed you get even more Oo If you look at the list +% Attackspeed can spawn on Rings/Gloves/Amulet... thats 4 Items (2 Rings) that can spawn with +17% Attackspeed.

    The only way to stop huge numbers is to implement a hard cap for haste... and I'm not sure if they would do something like this.

    This video shows the rough visual affects to way of the hundred fists and a rough rank 7 rune. With obsidian the attack speed increases by 66% . That sounds too good to be true .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yodrei871ps

    Quote from Tenhi

    So... all that aside. I was thinking about Combination Strike for my own build... do you guys think its a good passive if you only use 2 Spirit Gens? Its basicly the decision between some of the passives. I really want Seize the Initiative and Transcendence for now... other intresting passives would be Resolve, Sixth Sense and One with Everything. The question is, is 16% increased damage (2 Gens) worth the same as -30%dmg, 50%crit as dodge or resistances :/

    Hmmmmmm that is a conundrum you have there. I would say you have things fine as is but if you had to switch one out I would switch resolve. Keep in mind I would only switch if I had to. With all of your skills getting resolve out and keeping it on your targets is easy.

    Did you just change your signature ? Id say once again that it looks good and that theres no need to add combination strike

    End Of Line
  • #67
    Quote from Tenhi

    So... all that aside. I was thinking about Combination Strike for my own build... do you guys think its a good passive if you only use 2 Spirit Gens? Its basicly the decision between some of the passives. I really want Seize the Initiative and Transcendence for now... other intresting passives would be Resolve, Sixth Sense and One with Everything. The question is, is 16% increased damage (2 Gens) worth the same as -30%dmg, 50%crit as dodge or resistances :/


    Sorry didn't see that post until just now. I would personally say it may not be the best thing to change. Only because you have the 2 generators. The buff is so short and it won't stack up that high that I can see it. Dropping some decent defense passive for a, quite small compared to other classes, dps passive I don't think is worth it.

    I really feel Combination Strike only becomes worth it with 3+ generators. Still then it appears that 3 generators might also be the max because of utility purposes.
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  • #68
    I made up a spread simplified spread sheet for this build:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#chUeRW!UWg!ZaZcac

    I simulated a rotation using all those skills while doing on average 2 attacks every 3 seconds (0.75 attack/sec). I know people will say that you deal more than that with weapons having like 1-1.4 attack/sec. On the other hand, this will only happen versus dummy and never on the field since there is always time losses. My main goal was to check out if rotations where fine and if there where any fury issues. The average results for buffs and debuffs (applied all the time and as AOE effect for debuffs) and damage output (over 30 secs.) are as follows :

    Damage increase: 54% (This could actually be higher (maybe 65-70% or so) with better attack/sec ratio)
    Damage reduction: 70% AOE
    Attack speed reduction: 35% AOE
    Movement reduction: 50% AOE
    Healing during the 30 secs: 85408 HP

    Single target physical damage: 3210% (includes bleeding damage)
    AOE physical damage: 2847% (Includes vortex damage but not exploding damage from explosive palm)
    AOE holy damage: 1783%
    Single target bleeding damage: 1500%
    AOE vortex damage: 1667%

    The fury generation is a bit higher than the fury spent so that you could probably throw 1 more CS or reapply mantra more often for increased damage if you get higher attack/sec ratio.

    I would have to compare this with a common 2 generator build to get a better output on the viability of such a build but it seems fair enough to me. Of course i could've made some math errors but it still gives a good idea.
  • #69
    Actually i made a mistake with the dmg increase somewhere in my spread sheet and it would be a higher average damage increase (74%). Given this, damage would be higher accordingly. So this would make damage output approximately 20% better than what it is.
  • #70
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    I made up a spread simplified spread sheet for this build:

    http://us.battle.net...UeRW!UWg!ZaZcac

    I simulated a rotation using all those skills while doing on average 2 attacks every 3 seconds (0.75 attack/sec). I know people will say that you deal more than that with weapons having like 1-1.4 attack/sec. On the other hand, this will only happen versus dummy and never on the field since there is always time losses. My main goal was to check out if rotations where fine and if there where any fury issues. The average results for buffs and debuffs (applied all the time and as AOE effect for debuffs) and damage output (over 30 secs.) are as follows :

    Damage increase: 54% (This could actually be higher (maybe 65-70% or so) with better attack/sec ratio)
    Damage reduction: 70% AOE
    Attack speed reduction: 35% AOE
    Movement reduction: 50% AOE
    Healing during the 30 secs: 85408 HP

    Single target physical damage: 3210% (includes bleeding damage)
    AOE physical damage: 2847% (Includes vortex damage but not exploding damage from explosive palm)
    AOE holy damage: 1783%
    Single target bleeding damage: 1500%
    AOE vortex damage: 1667%

    The fury generation is a bit higher than the fury spent so that you could probably throw 1 more CS or reapply mantra more often for increased damage if you get higher attack/sec ratio.

    I would have to compare this with a common 2 generator build to get a better output on the viability of such a build but it seems fair enough to me. Of course i could've made some math errors but it still gives a good idea.


    I like the theory and the numbers are quite impressive. Still I feel you may be better off with something other than Cyclone Strike. I understand it is a useful move for keeping things close to you but I feel you can do more potential damage or more CC or more healing with something else. The utility is nice for AOE but when you already have 4 moves that only output damage (and some debuffs) I say you might want to change your idea of "getting enemies closer for more damage" to something else. Especially since I bet having an "oh shit" button would be very very handy. Breath of Heaven runed for fear, or something else.
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  • #71
    Quote from azuresky808

    I like the theory and the numbers are quite impressive. Still I feel you may be better off with something other than Cyclone Strike. I understand it is a useful move for keeping things close to you but I feel you can do more potential damage or more CC or more healing with something else. The utility is nice for AOE but when you already have 4 moves that only output damage (and some debuffs) I say you might want to change your idea of "getting enemies closer for more damage" to something else. Especially since I bet having an "oh shit" button would be very very handy. Breath of Heaven runed for fear, or something else.


    Well Cyclone Strike is a pretty good heal. It heals more than Breath of Heaven AND deals 275%dmg... it also has a larger range (24y vs 12y). The only way for BoH to be better (and that is only heal wise) is with the Indigo Rune. Then again you now heal more with BoH but still lack the 275% dmg. Also with the bigger Range its easier to heal you mates... if you think about it Cyclone Strike wins in every possible way. The only drawback is that you need 75 Spirit to use it... but then again if its your only Spirit Spender saving Spirit isnt that hard ;)

    Edit: Also @1up_Mush. I think your estimate for the Attack/sec is too low (like you already said yourself ;))... if you DW Fist Weapons you end up with 1.61 Attacks/sec. So even if you run around half your fight (15sec) you would still end up with an higher average Attack/sec than your assumed 0.75. That being said its hard to evaluate the damage your build does if we dont know what other builds could do :(

    Oh and you should note that damagereduction is very likely multiplicative. So you end up with 58% and not with 70%.
  • #72
    With the rotation i used, you can keep all buffs always active and you can do at least 4 cyclone strike in a 30 sec delay which basically means you generate more than 10 fury/sec and all this with 0.75 attacks per second.

    Unless i am missing something, i don't see any advantage in using more than 4 fury generators. Another way around with 4 generators would be imho to drop mantra of conviction for mantra of healing and use wave of light instead of cyclone strike. Then, we don't really know for sure about mantras having some sort of cooldown and the possibility of reseting it for the activation bonus effect. Maybe it would be possible to use lashing tail kick in a 4 spirit generator build and use the extra spirit to reapply mantras for the activation bonus effect (Mantra of healing indigo seems nice). Tempest rush seems to me a bad choice because it is channeling and you would most likely loose your buff effects if you where to channel for too long. 7SS's as the same problem and cooldown seems too long to use in such a build because i think you would probably end up not being able to spend enough of fury.

    Afterwards, it seems like it would be down to a 3 spirit generator build which would probably work great and there would probably be a lot of possible builds. Personnaly i think breath of heaven could work in a 4 spirit generator build but i just don't like the skill for the obvious reasons Tenhi stated in his last post. But maybe it could work just right, time will tell.
  • #73
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    With the rotation i used, you can keep all buffs always active and you can do at least 4 cyclone strike in a 30 sec delay which basically means you generate more than 10 fury/sec and all this with 0.75 attacks per second.


    I dont understand that part. All Spirit Generators generate 6 Spirit/Attack. And you assume an Attack/sec of 0.75... thats 0.75Attack/sec*6 Spirit/Attack = 4.5 Spirit/sec... how do you end up with your over 10 Spirit/sec? You have no Ability to generate Spirit (passive buffs etc.) besides your Spirit Generators and all that influences their generated Spirit is the attackspeed Oo
  • #74
    I was trying to find the actual speed of those fury building attacks but just could'nt find them. The 0.75 attack/sec was for all 3 attacks from spirit generator. If you tell me that there is no way i can pull that much, i would definetly need to review my spread sheet and do some adjustments.
  • #75
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    I was trying to find the actual speed of those fury building attacks but just could'nt find them. The 0.75 attack/sec was for all 3 attacks from spirit generator. If you tell me that there is no way i can pull that much, i would definetly need to review my spread sheet and do some adjustments.


    Wait what? So you assume that you do 0.75 Rotations/sec. And not 0.75 Attacks/sec? Thats basically 0.75*3 = 2.25 Attacks/sec? Well than you generate more Spirit... (and its Spirit and not Fury... that Fury thing is confusing^^). And yes assuming 2.25 Attacks/sec is ok. If you use Fist Weapons and dualwield you get up to 1.61 Attacks/sec and so you need 2.25/1.61 = ~40% Attackspeed from Items. That sounds ok considering that the highest lvl 60 Affix gives you 17%.

    Also you were looking for "actual" attackspeeds of the Spirit Gens well you can look here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455189 that are all the Spirit Gens that are in the beta... so you have to assume something for Sweeping Winds ;)
  • #76
    Quote from Tenhi

    Quote from azuresky808

    I like the theory and the numbers are quite impressive. Still I feel you may be better off with something other than Cyclone Strike. I understand it is a useful move for keeping things close to you but I feel you can do more potential damage or more CC or more healing with something else. The utility is nice for AOE but when you already have 4 moves that only output damage (and some debuffs) I say you might want to change your idea of "getting enemies closer for more damage" to something else. Especially since I bet having an "oh shit" button would be very very handy. Breath of Heaven runed for fear, or something else.


    Well Cyclone Strike is a pretty good heal. It heals more than Breath of Heaven AND deals 275%dmg... it also has a larger range (24y vs 12y). The only way for BoH to be better (and that is only heal wise) is with the Indigo Rune. Then again you now heal more with BoH but still lack the 275% dmg. Also with the bigger Range its easier to heal you mates... if you think about it Cyclone Strike wins in every possible way. The only drawback is that you need 75 Spirit to use it... but then again if its your only Spirit Spender saving Spirit isnt that hard ;)


    Not saying it was that hard but there are more efficient means of getting heals. Though I was more concerned with the lack of a good means of keeping alive aside form the debuffs and the passives. It is all good that he is doing more damage, and while I like Cyclone Strike I can see moments when you pull a bit more than you can handle. With this build the only means of staying alive in that situation would be to pop a potion, dps and pray that you don't die. Especially if a mob that you want to keep away happens to be within the radius of Cyclone Strike. You would have to be careful whether to pull it to get the heal or avoid it and take your chances.

    I'm not trying to say the build is bad or anything. The damage output from his math, although we know the speeds are a little different, he can put out some serious numbers. The build is solid but what I worry about is the sustainability and survive ability. Melee need to worry about surviving much more than any other class and I feel focusing too much on trying to make a damage build work will sacrifice the needed defense in the long run.

    I still stand by 3 generators being a solid build just because of the extra utility, but that might just be my take on it. There is a reason why I only like to tank in melee classes (or stealth).
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  • #77
    Quote from Tenhi

    Quote from 1up_Mush

    I was trying to find the actual speed of those fury building attacks but just could'nt find them. The 0.75 attack/sec was for all 3 attacks from spirit generator. If you tell me that there is no way i can pull that much, i would definetly need to review my spread sheet and do some adjustments.


    Wait what? So you assume that you do 0.75 Rotations/sec. And not 0.75 Attacks/sec? Thats basically 0.75*3 = 2.25 Attacks/sec? Well than you generate more Spirit... (and its Spirit and not Fury... that Fury thing is confusing^^). And yes assuming 2.25 Attacks/sec is ok. If you use Fist Weapons and dualwield you get up to 1.61 Attacks/sec and so you need 2.25/1.61 = ~40% Attackspeed from Items. That sounds ok considering that the highest lvl 60 Affix gives you 17%.

    Also you were looking for "actual" attackspeeds of the Spirit Gens well you can look here: http://us.battle.net...opic/3811455189 that are all the Spirit Gens that are in the beta... so you have to assume something for Sweeping Winds ;)

    Not to mention the attack speed from using some spirit generators. So with the right spirit generators you can get that little bit faster meaning more spirit per second and thus using cyclone strike in that build could be used that bit more. There are still Some variables we don't know. like the attack speed on spirit generators.

    End Of Line
  • #78
    There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.
  • #79
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.


    Compressing the enemies is going to so helpful in maximizing the damage of my crippling wave and exploding palm generators. You are always gambling with getting overrun which means you need to planning your moves in advance, know exactly how many enemies you ca successfully take on.
  • #80
    Quote from AFd3

    Quote from 1up_Mush

    There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.


    Compressing the enemies is going to so helpful in maximizing the damage of my crippling wave and exploding palm generators. You are always gambling with getting overrun which means you need to planning your moves in advance, know exactly how many enemies you ca successfully take on.


    Someone who as mastered the game could possibly take advange of this and as you said, it helps for both exploding palm and crippling wave. I like builds which take some planning, they are the most interesting to play.
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