Combination Strike!

  • #41
    I need more people like you guys in the DH forum. At least in here we have very good discussions about how to properly make a build. Not just make some assumptions at the numbers and accuse each other of being wrong XD
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  • #42
    Quote from Tenhi

    Quote from azuresky808

    Personally I would use the 7SS build. Mainly because we really do not know the usefulness of more healing as opposed to more damage. The only thing I can see that bothers me a tad with 7SS is that Transcendence may only have limited effect since you will most likely not be using every drop of spirit you generate. I suppose popping the Mantra can help with that but I bet you will be overflowing with spirit more so than not.

    25 spirit with a 3sec CD I believe when you generate (duel wielding) about 10 per second. This does not even take into account that you have some odd ways to generate spirit, like critting an enemy for example.

    Spirit is odd like Fury. There are a few ways to generate it outside the normal generators. Some of them even rely on combat mechanics like taking damage or critting an opponent. Always found that odd when you have classes that need to stay at range and don't get bonuses like that for their resources.


    Since when do you get Spirit if you are hit? Or if you crit? As far as I know you only get Spirit through your Gens. Spirit doesnt behave like Fury.

    Also about overflowing with Spirit. He can use Mantra of Evasion every 3sec for 25 Spirit and Dashing Strike every 2sec for 15 Spirit. So in 30sec he generates 10 Spirit/sec*30sec = 300 Spirit (using your 10 Spirit/sec) and he uses 10*25 Spirit+15*15Spirit+2*50Spirit = 575 Spirit... that is if he tries to keep the buffs up.

    If we dont account for things like lag and reaction times he uses the above mentioned 575 Spirit during a 30sec fight. To match that Spirit usage he needs a generation of 575Spirit/30sec = 19.167 Spirit/sec. Thats almost double the amount you assumed he would generate... so I guess with spaming Mantra/Dash he is good to go for all we know :)

    Im so happy I took electrocal physics in college. Math seems easier after that. Personally i think Ill be over 10 spirit a second. At lest Id like to be. so whats your opinion Tenhi?

    End Of Line
  • #43
    Just logged to the beta and I feel like a silly goose. Well I guess it is not that bad. Apparently your auto attacks generate spirit even if they are not generators. Now I know.

    @Rym: did you skip my post clarifying spirit per second?

    Quote from azuresky808 »
    Second, you get around 8.4(sorry had to check the math I was making assumptions from higher speed weapons) spirit per sec while duel wielding without buffs. So you generate much less than you will use on the Mantra.
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  • #44
    Quote from azuresky808

    I need more people like you guys in the DH forum. At least in here we have very good discussions about how to properly make a build. Not just make some assumptions at the numbers and accuse each other of being wrong XD

    I know. Its nice to have people who understand. If you ever want to talk about other classes I can try xD weather it be on the forums or a privet message.
    As for dashing strike being a drop in DPS I disagree. With obsidian way of the hundred fists I will have a increased attack speed. Dashing strike allows me to put the exploding palm and other parts of my combos exactly where I want them to be. It also can get me from group A to group B. In my build I would not mind using the mantra and dashing strike as often as I can, assuming the spirit allows me to.

    I take it your one of the lucky ones that has a beta key? normal attacks should not generate spirit >_> thats not right. could it be a bug?

    End Of Line
  • #45
    Quote from Rym

    Quote from azuresky808

    I need more people like you guys in the DH forum. At least in here we have very good discussions about how to properly make a build. Not just make some assumptions at the numbers and accuse each other of being wrong XD

    I know. Its nice to have people who understand. As for dashing strike being a drop in DPS I disagree. With obsidian way of the hundred fists I will have a increased attack speed. Dashing strike allows me to put the exploding palm and other parts of my combos exactly where I want them to be. It also can get me from group A to group B. In my build I would not mind using the mantra and dashing strike as often as I can, assuming the spirit allows me to.

    I take it your one of the lucky ones that has a beta key? normal attacks should not generate spirit >_> thats not right. could it be a bug?


    I can see your point with dashing. The problem I see is if you time it badly you run the chance of letting the buff fall. The animation also happens in 2 parts. The travel than the attack. The total time spent doing the whole move may be a little higher than you are expecting. On top of that Way's speed buff does not really help much with Dashing I would assume since its animation seems to happen exactly the same way each time. Not to mention it also has a tenancy to teleport behind the enemy if they are close if that has any real meaning to you.

    And yes I was blessed with a beta key. That was the main reason for the initial assumption of this build. I ad no clue that you can change the generator mid combo and still retain the combo level. That whole system really opened up other options.

    Doing Crippling>Crippling>Exploding is so effective in an AOE you have no idea. XD

    Also I have no idea if it is a bug, it was weird to see though. I actually think it is working as intended only because builds that can go without generators (looking at you WD, DH, Wizard) do not generate on attack and Monks and Barb have to.

    Edit: if you would like PM me your Bnet tag and I'll add you. (I play WoW and SC2 as well and already own this game from the annual pass)
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  • #46
    Quote from azuresky808

    Just logged to the beta and I feel like a silly goose. Well I guess it is not that bad. Apparently your auto attacks generate spirit even if they are not generators. Now I know.

    @Rym: did you skip my post clarifying spirit per second?

    Quote from azuresky808 »
    Second, you get around 8.4(sorry had to check the math I was making assumptions from higher speed weapons) spirit per sec while duel wielding without buffs. So you generate much less than you will use on the Mantra.



    How do you end up with 8.4 Spirit without buffs? I assume 1.4 base Attackspeed (Fist Weapons) and add the 15% Attackspeed bonus for DWing... that puts us at 1.4*1.15 = 1.61 Attacks/sec and thuse we gain 9.66 Spirit/sec. Do you use slower Weapons?

    PS:... was doing the math while typing... you forgot the 15% Attackspeed increase for DWing :)

    Quote from Rym

    As for dashing strike being a drop in DPS I disagree. With obsidian way of the hundred fists I will have a increased attack speed. Dashing strike allows me to put the exploding palm and other parts of my combos exactly where I want them to be. It also can get me from group A to group B. In my build I would not mind using the mantra and dashing strike as often as I can, assuming the spirit allows me to.

    I take it your one of the lucky ones that has a beta key? normal attacks should not generate spirit >_> thats not right. could it be a bug?


    Yep thats why I thought you would constantly use Dashing Strike. Because of the movement gain you also get more time directly on your enemies... so less time running around :P also dont forget that Dashing Strike does 160%dmg...

    And @Spirit gain... well I never heard that you get Spirit for autoattacks... could be a bug :/


    Edit: Was just again thinking about my own build... I only have the Mantra as constant Spirit Spender... looks like I need an other option :/ I wont cast the Ally that often (assuming he wont die every 3sec^^) and the other 2 Spenders have a CD (30/45sec). So I guess I need to change something... first thing I would consider changing is Serenity. But I'm not sure what else to take :( I'm considering Tempest Rush... if you think about it it does good damage with 15Spirit for 170%damage... and it also is a constant "heal stream" with Transcendence. Also if you add the Obsidian Rune you get 50% reduced damage. Oh and I love the animation :D something like this: http://us.battle.net...TjQR!YXW!cYcYca

    Edit2: While we are talking about Spirit Gen... consider the Templer with Inspire... it adds 10% Spirit Gen. Something like this http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/follower#0101. An other intresting Follower Skill is Anatomy from the Scoundrel... adding 10% crit gives us also 5% Dodge through Sixth Sense.
  • #47
    Quote from Tenhi

    PS:... was doing the math while typing... you forgot the 15% Attackspeed increase for DWing :)

    And @Spirit gain... well I never heard that you get Spirit for autoattacks... could be a bug :/


    Yep that I did. I am too used to doing math for slow weapons (srsly take a look at my DH post) that I forget the 15% bonus.

    And I have no clue if this is a bug I will post it in a few minutes.

    Update: looks like monks generating this way is intended. Barb are able to generate fury from breaking barrels and melee attacks just in case you are wondering
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  • #48
    Quote from Tenhi


    How do you end up with 8.4 Spirit without buffs? I assume 1.4 base Attackspeed (Fist Weapons) and add the 15% Attackspeed bonus for DWing... that puts us at 1.4*1.15 = 1.61 Attacks/sec and thuse we gain 9.66 Spirit/sec. Do you use slower Weapons?


    With obsidian way of the hundred fist that goes up to 2.38 attacks per second. so 14.28 spirit per second. Not to mention combos seem to be faster then normal attacks.

    End Of Line
  • #49
    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Tenhi

    How do you end up with 8.4 Spirit without buffs? I assume 1.4 base Attackspeed (Fist Weapons) and add the 15% Attackspeed bonus for DWing... that puts us at 1.4*1.15 = 1.61 Attacks/sec and thuse we gain 9.66 Spirit/sec. Do you use slower Weapons?


    With obsidian way of the hundred fist that goes up to 2.38 attacks per second. so 14.28 spirit per second. Not to mention combos seem to be faster then normal attacks.


    They seem to be but I can assure you they go at weapon speed. Except the 2nd attack from Way since it states that it hits 'multiple' times.
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  • #50
    Tenhi has linked this link so many times. I think it applies here ( it took me a second to find it) http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455189 some generators will be faster so that attack per second and in turn spirit per second may go up a bit.
    Im shocked Tenhi has not beet me to it to be honest .>_>

    End Of Line
  • #51
    Okay after all of this talk I worked over my build once more. Instead of ramping using Way with onyx I'm using crimson to get that extra distance closer. Same can be said for 7SS although that is also a great DPS CD anyway. Breath is used whenever you get low or need to set up the buff again.

    I was debating the runes on the Mantra and the Mantra choice itself. I know in Rym's build he is using dodge but I have a feeling that after all is said and done between the 2 passives + Mantra + natural dodge from dexterity you might be running to heavily into diminishing returns to really see much of a bonus. So I chose Mantra of Healing. Still then the runes were a hard choice so I picked one that provides a really good output per activation.

    I was also thinking of switching Six Sense to Seize the Initiative for the same issue of diminishing returns. This however is another one of those "we will see when the game ships" changes.
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  • #52
    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Tenhi

    How do you end up with 8.4 Spirit without buffs? I assume 1.4 base Attackspeed (Fist Weapons) and add the 15% Attackspeed bonus for DWing... that puts us at 1.4*1.15 = 1.61 Attacks/sec and thuse we gain 9.66 Spirit/sec. Do you use slower Weapons?


    With obsidian way of the hundred fist that goes up to 2.38 attacks per second. so 14.28 spirit per second. Not to mention combos seem to be faster then normal attacks.


    They seem to be but I can assure you they go at weapon speed. Except the 2nd attack from Way since it states that it hits 'multiple' times.


    1)@Rym How do you end up with 2.38 Attack/sec? If I'm not mistaken its 16%*3 Stacks = 48% Attackspeed increase. DWing is 15% Attackspeed increase. If we assume that its additive... its 48%+15% = 63% Attackspeed bonus. 1.4*1.63 = 2.282 Attacks/sec.

    2)@azuresky808 I linked the topic with the higher attackspeeds in my (way to long) post about the spirit gain/attackspeed... there is even a post that confirms that it still works with patch 10

    Edit: Rym beat me to it :P yeah I linked that topic pretty often all over the monk forum^^. Also @azuresky what do you mean with "dimishing returns"? As far as I know there are no dimishing returns on dodge... all it does is add multiplicative (and thats not the same thing as having dimishing returns :D).
  • #53
    Quote from Rym

    Tenhi has linked this link so many times. I think it applies here ( it took me a second to find it) http://us.battle.net...opic/3811455189 some generators will be faster so that attack per second and in turn spirit per second may go up a bit.
    Im shocked Tenhi has not beet me to it to be honest .>_>


    Wow I have not seen that at all. Good find!
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  • #54
    @Tenhi Sorry for not seeing your edit before about your build. I really like the idea of it. You have a very mixed tank and with a huge health pool from the ally. I kinda question your choice of Thundering Fist. This is only because, like Way, it is a very focused and close in attack. Entering an AOE situation you might rather have something like Crippling on. Still it can be used to get the debuff out there for tough bosses. 35% less attack speed is a really handy debuff
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  • #55
    Quote from Tenhi

    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Tenhi

    How do you end up with 8.4 Spirit without buffs? I assume 1.4 base Attackspeed (Fist Weapons) and add the 15% Attackspeed bonus for DWing... that puts us at 1.4*1.15 = 1.61 Attacks/sec and thuse we gain 9.66 Spirit/sec. Do you use slower Weapons?


    With obsidian way of the hundred fist that goes up to 2.38 attacks per second. so 14.28 spirit per second. Not to mention combos seem to be faster then normal attacks.


    They seem to be but I can assure you they go at weapon speed. Except the 2nd attack from Way since it states that it hits 'multiple' times.


    1)@Rym How do you end up with 2.38 Attack/sec? If I'm not mistaken its 16%*3 Stacks = 48% Attackspeed increase. DWing is 15% Attackspeed increase. If we assume that its additive... its 48%+15% = 63% Attackspeed bonus. 1.4*1.63 = 2.282 Attacks/sec.

    Edit: Rym beat me to it :P yeah I linked that topic pretty often all over the monk forum^^. Also @azuresky what do you mean with "dimishing returns"? As far as I know there are no dimishing returns on dodge... all it does is add multiplicative (and thats not the same thing as having dimishing returns :D).


    At your point about attack speed. Diminishing returns. They already said they do not want attack speed running wild like it did in D2 so I don't think we will be able to achieve anything too much past 2sec

    Edit: this is attack speed on the naked weapon not what the skill does to it.
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  • #56
    Quote from azuresky808

    Okay after all of this talk I worked over my build once more. Instead of ramping using Way with onyx I'm using crimson to get that extra distance closer. Same can be said for 7SS although that is also a great DPS CD anyway. Breath is used whenever you get low or need to set up the buff again.

    I was debating the runes on the Mantra and the Mantra choice itself. I know in Rym's build he is using dodge but I have a feeling that after all is said and done between the 2 passives + Mantra + natural dodge from dexterity you might be running to heavily into diminishing returns to really see much of a bonus. So I chose Mantra of Healing. Still then the runes were a hard choice so I picked one that provides a really good output per activation.

    I was also thinking of switching Six Sense to Seize the Initiative for the same issue of diminishing returns. This however is another one of those "we will see when the game ships" changes.

    Back in my WoW days i played a druid tank, so i know a lot about diminishing returns. I hope Im not hurt too too bad by this. I could very well be ok at higher levels its as you said wait and see when the games out. If Im a bit over in dodge then ill just have to use transcendence .

    As for your mantra of healing issue. thats a tough one... the golden rune, soothing breeze seems nice. the extra spirit may be useful and could at lest help fuel the mantra. Or boon of protection seems a bit scary. a shield for 25% of your health.


    Quote from Tenhi


    1)@Rym How do you end up with 2.38 Attack/sec? If I'm not mistaken its 16%*3 Stacks = 48% Attackspeed increase. DWing is 15% Attackspeed increase. If we assume that its additive... its 48%+15% = 63% Attackspeed bonus. 1.4*1.63 = 2.282 Attacks/sec.

    Im blaming that on my dyslexia >_> i punched it in my calculator and I get the answer you said. I must have messed something up.

    End Of Line
  • #57
    Quote from Rym

    Quote from azuresky808

    Okay after all of this talk I worked over my build once more. Instead of ramping using Way with onyx I'm using crimson to get that extra distance closer. Same can be said for 7SS although that is also a great DPS CD anyway. Breath is used whenever you get low or need to set up the buff again.

    I was debating the runes on the Mantra and the Mantra choice itself. I know in Rym's build he is using dodge but I have a feeling that after all is said and done between the 2 passives + Mantra + natural dodge from dexterity you might be running to heavily into diminishing returns to really see much of a bonus. So I chose Mantra of Healing. Still then the runes were a hard choice so I picked one that provides a really good output per activation.

    I was also thinking of switching Six Sense to Seize the Initiative for the same issue of diminishing returns. This however is another one of those "we will see when the game ships" changes.

    Back in my WoW days i played a druid tank, so i know a lot about diminishing returns. I hope Im not hurt too too bad by this. I could very well be ok at higher levels its as you said wait and see when the games out. If Im a bit over in dodge then ill just have to use transcendence .

    As for your mantra of healing issue. thats a tough one... the golden rune, soothing breeze seems nice. the extra spirit may be useful and could at lest help fuel the mantra. Or boon of protection seems a bit scary. a shield for 25% of your health.


    Quote from Tenhi

    1)@Rym How do you end up with 2.38 Attack/sec? If I'm not mistaken its 16%*3 Stacks = 48% Attackspeed increase. DWing is 15% Attackspeed increase. If we assume that its additive... its 48%+15% = 63% Attackspeed bonus. 1.4*1.63 = 2.282 Attacks/sec.

    Im blaming that on my dyslexia >_> i punched it in my calculator and I get the answer you said. I must have messed something up.


    Oh gosh thank goodness I saved the build. I did not even notice that I had not posted it.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#UiejXg!ZWg!cZZZcY

    Guess I'm a little tired after the long day. I'm gonna head out for the night, but I assure you I will be back
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  • #58
    Quote from Tenhi


    Edit: Rym beat me to it :P yeah I linked that topic pretty often all over the monk forum^^. Also @azuresky what do you mean with "dimishing returns"? As far as I know there are no dimishing returns on dodge... all it does is add multiplicative (and thats not the same thing as having dimishing returns :D).

    I think the multiplicative factor would be enough of a diminishing return . Or at lest I hope so.
    Quote from azuresky808

    35% less attack speed is a really handy debuff

    Crippling wave is worth its Wight in gold. its quite useful.


    Quote from azuresky808



    Oh gosh thank goodness I saved the build. I did not even notice that I had not posted it.

    http://us.battle.net...ejXg!ZWg!cZZZcY

    Guess I'm a little tired after the long day. I'm gonna head out for the night, but I assure you I will be back


    yea... my girlfriend would not be too pleased if I slept through the movie marathon tomorrow. Im out for now too. Pick this up again same time tomorrow ? xD

    Your build looks good to me. I may be a bit tiered to catch something.

    End Of Line
  • #59
    About the Attackspeed "limit" and not letting it rampage like it did in D2... its kinda old (Patch 4) but the DH here has an Attackspeed of 2.38 Attacks/sec.

    And that is with lvl13 and only lvl13 gear :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHRsAdFXpEM

    ... dont talk about "late"... its 6:32 in the morning where I live xD
  • #60
    changed my build to get more out of my combo strike only attacks
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aceUiX!ZXg!aacaZb
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