Combination Strike!

  • #21
    Quote from Tenhi

    First thing first... its 160% and not 155%.

    If you noticed I did all my math using 160% I forgot to change that when I clicked post.

    Quote from Tenhi
    And there are multiple things to consider if you talk about 7SS. The thing is you are immune to damage while the strike is animated... well at least thats what it looks like, that is also the reason it has a cooldown... so that you cant spam it (and stay immune for a long time)... if that all is true 7SS also acts as a XY sec immunity Spell.

    Very good point. You have immunity for some time but what I was trying to get at is if you had the choice of one big spender where would it be? 7SS has a much higher potential than Wave does in single target. When we are talking about an AOE Wave is only really better than 7SS, even with the alabaster rune, if you hit 3+ targets with both halves. The damage for Wave ramps faster than 7SS.

    Like I said before. If you have a higher AOE situation Wave does more damage but that is because of the nature of 7SS. I do prefer 7SS. It looks like a very solid attack no matter what rune is affixed.

    I also think you are correct in that alabaster will give 190% per hit on single targets only because of how gimpy the attack would be compared to some of the other, and better, choices like indigo or crimson. Still if you are fighting 3+ alabaster will pull more damage than any other color rune.

    Quote from Tenhi

    Talking about survivability... you should maybe consider the Obsidian Rune for Crippling Wave. Decreasing your enemies damage by 40% all the time (because you will use Crippling Wave pretty often...) seems to be a very good way to increase your survivability.

    Surviving was not an issue really. Between the passive and Breath of Heaven there should be enough to sustain the build. Still we really do now know exactly what damage will be like later on in the game so this is hard to judge.
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  • #22
    I go for a lunch and come back to you both leaving so much for me to comment on, here goes .
    Quote from azuresky808

    Don't forget 7SS with indigo still only hits 1 target per hit for 155% damage. If you really want to use it for AOE use alabaster. Hitting 11 instead of 7 times gives you 640% weapon damage extra where as hitting 4 targets with alabaster on gives 840% damage. (this is damage beyond the initial 7 hits).

    7SS with indigo can put out a total of 1760% max between targets because it only hits 11 times and each time hits one target (at random)


    Your point on alabaster rune for better AoE is true but adding indigo alows it to do both fairly well. I like indigo for seven sided strike more for its ability to be effective in more then 1 situation ( AoE and single target) I may not be giving alabaster enough credit. IT is a very powerful rune.

    Quote from Tenhi

    First thing first... its 160% and not 155%. And there are multiple things to consider if you talk about 7SS. The thing is you are immune to damage while the strike is animated

    Oddly the simplified tool tip says your immune yet the complex one does not mention it. The animation is REALLY fast tho. Blizz has sped the skill up since it was first seen.

    Quote from Tenhi

    Well and on the topic of runes... thats a hard choice. Indigo seems to add extremly high dmg in every situation. You could hit 11 targets for 160% or 1 target for 1760%dmg (or any number in between for 160% times X dmg). What I was wondering about the Alabaster rune is if you get the 30%AoE dmg even if you only have 1 enemy... i.e. if you Strike one enemy for 160% will he also be hit by the AoE that the strike produces? If the AoE also hits the initial target Alabaster would be extremly good even in single target situations (it would effectivly increase the damage to 190%)... but I'm not sure if that is the case. The wording indicates that it only does damage "around" the target that you initialy hit. Next is the Crimson rune... it increases the damage per hit to 208% and adds an teleport (my favorite rune for 7SS). It may not be the highest damage you can get but the teleport sounds intresting... it allows you to teleport to ranged/caster mobs to finish them off... if you look at the Vid I posted it looks like you normaly simply strike enemies that are in a XY yard radius around you. Obsidian is a pretty good CC Version of 7SS... but then again I would probably prefer more damage for my damage Spender ;).

    All of the runes for seven sided strike are a challenge to pick just what one you want. Alabaster does have that AoE to it but as you mentioned if the AoE damage doest effect the initial target then it sounds distractive. With the crimson rune I think the teleport is a bit unnessesary because from the video there 7SS seems to have a large range to pick its target/ targets.

    Quote from Tenhi
    • Strike - Crimson Way of the Hundred Fists (Dash + DoT)
    • Strike - Crippling Wave (40%reduced damage + AoE)
    • Strike - alternating Crippling Wave/Exploding Palm (40%reduced damage + -35%attackspeed + -50%movementspeed + AoE // 15%dmg increase + 30%HP Bomb)


    Thats really close to how Im using my generators.
    Strike 1.Crippling wave (-40% damage)
    Strike 2.Way of the hundred fists ( with the 8 hits and the obsidian rune ill get a stack or 2 for increased attack speed and movement speed)
    Strike 3.alternating crippling wave and exploding palms.
    Both would get a fair amount out of combination strike.

    Quote from Tenhi

    Edit: On a side note.. the 3rd Exploding Palm Strike only adds the DoT... it doesnt do the 100%damage. And I would consider a diffrent rune for Exploding Palm... Exploding Palm is all about high AoE Damage (30% HP Bomb)... so IMHO Indigo is the best rune you can get for it. But that is only my opinion

    Edit2: If I were to use Combination Strike I would go for something like this http://us.battle.net...UjQR!XYg!ZcYZca using the Strike order from above. As long as 7SS is on CD I would use Mantra of Conviction for the 3sec 20%damage increase (it also heals a small amount through Transcendence).


    With edit 1 I would disagree indigo rune being the best rune. In my opinion its tied with crimson. With the Dot doing 30% of max HP to enemies you only need 4 ( well 3.1 but still) worth of just the explosion to kill the enemies ( assuming the pack of enemies are all the same thing) With crimson increasing the debuff duration means that when you use apply the DoT the odds of that enemy dying are a lot higher. This means that you wont be rushing to get the next wave of DoTs out. You can leave that enemy be and go after something else , maybe even the leader of that pack and damage him so the explosion will kill him .after applying 2 or 3 the enemies would die and finish the last of them off. Crimson also gives you that option to single targets and let you keep your distance but lets you keep damaging him. However that being said I can say indigo with exploding palms is nothing to be looked down at. Being able to send out Many of the DoTs means you can use the skill once and be done with it because you will have many targets bleeding and potentially exploding.

    I have thought about replacing sixth sense with transcendence. And moving breath of heaven to 7SS for very similar purpose you said in edit 2, what are your thoughts ?

    End Of Line
  • #23
    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from Tenhi

    First thing first... its 160% and not 155%.

    If you noticed I did all my math using 160% I forgot to change that when I clicked post.


    Yeah I saw that... but still choose to nitpick xD

    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from Tenhi
    And there are multiple things to consider if you talk about 7SS. The thing is you are immune to damage while the strike is animated... well at least thats what it looks like, that is also the reason it has a cooldown... so that you cant spam it (and stay immune for a long time)... if that all is true 7SS also acts as a XY sec immunity Spell.

    Very good point. You have immunity for some time but what I was trying to get at is if you had the choice of one big spender where would it be? 7SS has a much higher potential than Wave does in single target. When we are talking about an AOE Wave is only really better than 7SS, even with the alabaster rune, if you hit 3+ targets with both halves. The damage for Wave ramps faster than 7SS.

    Like I said before. If you have a higher AOE situation Wave does more damage but that is because of the nature of 7SS. I do prefer 7SS. It looks like a very solid attack no matter what rune is affixed.

    I also think you are correct in that alabaster will give 190% per hit on single targets only because of how gimpy the attack would be compared to some of the other, and better, choices like indigo or crimson. Still if you are fighting 3+ alabaster will pull more damage than any other color rune.


    Well yeah... Wave of Light is better for AoE. The thing is it looks hard to hit many enemies with it at least for the first 450%dmg. The first 450%dmg are only in close range and probably a pretty small radius (the radius = size of the bell). So hitting many enemies could be hard... then again I dont know the exact numbers for the radius :) And the 2nd "in a line" part scales pretty good and should be easy to aim. The thing that I dont like about Wave of Light is the extrem high Spiritcost :/ With WoL costing 100 Spirit you have to save some time before you can use it... and if you look at some Beta Vids (I dont have Beta so I cant test it myself :() it takes quite some time to generate 100 Spirit. And managing many small Spirit investments is easier than managing few large scall investments... especially if you consider that we only have 150 Spirit. If you dont have full Spirit using Wave of Light leaves you extremly starved (no Spirit for Breath of Heaven.

    But in the end I dont know how Spirit gen is on higher lvls... if we generate spirit pretty fast at lvl 60 it probably isnt a problem :) (and I get a problem with excesive Spirit with my build xD).

    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from Tenhi

    Talking about survivability... you should maybe consider the Obsidian Rune for Crippling Wave. Decreasing your enemies damage by 40% all the time (because you will use Crippling Wave pretty often...) seems to be a very good way to increase your survivability.

    Surviving was not an issue really. Between the passive and Breath of Heaven there should be enough to sustain the build. Still we really do now know exactly what damage will be like later on in the game so this is hard to judge.


    Well... you wrote that there might be a lack of survivability... thats why I made the comment about Obsidian Crippling Wave *shrug*
  • #24
    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Axtroz

    Didn't know you can chain and mix generators that way ^^

    Using 3 different spirit generators give a +24% overall damage boost, which is at the same level as other damage boost passives of all classes. (Glass Canon, Pierce the Veil, etc). All of them have the bonus and a downside.
    If you really want to abuse Combinations Strike, try to find a five generators build :D

    The problem is then your at a lack of utility and in the end survivability. Its more then just how many generators can we get , its also about what other skill slots do I have left.


    Here is a try:
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aceUiT!ZXg!aacaZc

    Passives:
    Combination Strike - that's what we are talking about (and I try to maximize now)
    Seize the Initiative - more defense, so I go for max dexterity, which again gives more dodge and damage
    The Guardian's Path - defense again, 10% dodge

    Skills:
    Tempest Rush - for mobility, some CC and a nice defense boost, it is NOT a spirit dump, only use when in danger
    Five Spirit Generators - I skipped Sweeping Wind because it has the least interesting runes for that build imo, and I don't want to take care of keeping the vortex up
    FoT = Fists of Thunder
    DR = Deadly Reach
    CW = Crippling Wave
    EP = Exploding Palm
    WotHF = Way of the Hundred Fists
    please check the runestone effects before reading on

    Playstyle and why it works (in my head at least):
    No matter what, you always open with CW, followed by FoT and a DR.
    -40% enemy damage + 11% dodge + 125% armour
    Next combo could be EP, WotHF and CW again.
    +125% armour, -40% enemy damage, -35% enemy attack speed and -50% enemy movement speed
    Congratulations, your Combination Strike is on five stacks.
    Now you do whatever fits best, WotHF against healthy monster or FoT for some extra dodge, as long as DR and CW is your third combo attack alternately.
    With Keen Eye (DR) and Concussion (CW) on seven and five seconds, you should be able to keep both effects running all the time.
    EP on third attack can be added instead of DR on some low HP packs for faster AoE.

    So basically you run around with a good amount of dodge and armour and the second you engage you start debuffing and buffing for more survivability. Most of you bonus damage comes from Combination Strike, only WotHF and EP are enhanced by a runestone.
    You store your spirit to always have Tempest Rush ready, which is your life saver.
  • #25
    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Tenhi

    First thing first... its 160% and not 155%. And there are multiple things to consider if you talk about 7SS. The thing is you are immune to damage while the strike is animated

    Oddly the simplified tool tip says your immune yet the complex one does not mention it. The animation is REALLY fast tho. Blizz has sped the skill up since it was first seen.


    lol... I never saw that the simplified tool tip says that you are immune... I was just assuming it from previous discussions/vids. But good to know that it is the way I thought it would be :) And about the faster animation... hrm... even if you only get 3sec immunity it would be the same time you get from Serenity... so yeah not that bad... if its less thatn 3sec I'm not sure if its still worth it. Then again you still get your high damage (the immunity is more like the icing on the cake ;)).

    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Tenhi

    Well and on the topic of runes... thats a hard choice. Indigo seems to add extremly high dmg in every situation. You could hit 11 targets for 160% or 1 target for 1760%dmg (or any number in between for 160% times X dmg). What I was wondering about the Alabaster rune is if you get the 30%AoE dmg even if you only have 1 enemy... i.e. if you Strike one enemy for 160% will he also be hit by the AoE that the strike produces? If the AoE also hits the initial target Alabaster would be extremly good even in single target situations (it would effectivly increase the damage to 190%)... but I'm not sure if that is the case. The wording indicates that it only does damage "around" the target that you initialy hit. Next is the Crimson rune... it increases the damage per hit to 208% and adds an teleport (my favorite rune for 7SS). It may not be the highest damage you can get but the teleport sounds intresting... it allows you to teleport to ranged/caster mobs to finish them off... if you look at the Vid I posted it looks like you normaly simply strike enemies that are in a XY yard radius around you. Obsidian is a pretty good CC Version of 7SS... but then again I would probably prefer more damage for my damage Spender ;).

    All of the runes for seven sided strike are a challenge to pick just what one you want. Alabaster does have that AoE to it but as you mentioned if the AoE damage doest effect the initial target then it sounds distractive. With the crimson rune I think the teleport is a bit unnessesary because from the video there 7SS seems to have a large range to pick its target/ targets.


    Hrm... good point about the teleport. The question is the radius of 7SS... if the radius is big enough the teleport isnt needed. If its big enough I would probably use the Indigo version... because 7SS is my only Spender having a version thats good for AoE and singletarget seems a good way to go.

    Edit: If you think about the Indigo rune... it would be intresting to know if the 11 Strikes take longer than the 7 Strikes... if they take longer you are also immune for a longer time... allowing CDs to come down etc. (for example your Pot CD... or your Serenitys CD).


    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Tenhi
    • Strike - Crimson Way of the Hundred Fists (Dash + DoT)
    • Strike - Crippling Wave (40%reduced damage + AoE)
    • Strike - alternating Crippling Wave/Exploding Palm (40%reduced damage + -35%attackspeed + -50%movementspeed + AoE // 15%dmg increase + 30%HP Bomb)


    Thats really close to how Im using my generators.
    Strike 1.Crippling wave (-40% damage)
    Strike 2.Way of the hundred fists ( with the 8 hits and the obsidian rune ill get a stack or 2 for increased attack speed and movement speed)
    Strike 3.alternating crippling wave and exploding palms.


    Oh good point on the 8 Strikes for Way of the hundred Fists... forgot that one. If you consider that changing my initial rotation to WothF -> WothF -> Crippling Wave/Exploding Palm seems a better choice. Maybe use Crippling Wave as 2nd Strike for the first time to get the 40%dmg debuff going. So with the Generators from above I would go for something like this 122 -> 113 -> 112 (1 = WothF, 2 = CW, 3 = EP).
    1. Strike -> Way of the Hundred Fists (Dash + DoT)
    2. Strike -> Crippling Wave (-40% Damage)
    3. Strike -> Crippling Wave (-40% Damage + -35% Attackspeed + -50% Movementspeed)
    4. Strike -> Way of the Hundred Fists (Dash + DoT)
    5. Strike -> Way of the Hundred Fists (8 Strikes)
    6. Strike -> Exploding Palm (Bomb DoT)
    7. Strike -> Way of the Hundred Fists (Dash + DoT)
    8. Strike -> Way of the Hundred Fists (8 Strikes)
    9. Strike -> Crippling Wave (reaplying the debuffs)
    The Crippling Wave debuff lasts 5sec... that should be enough to only use it as Strike 3 and then again as Strike 9.

    Quote from Rym

    Quote from Tenhi

    Edit: On a side note.. the 3rd Exploding Palm Strike only adds the DoT... it doesnt do the 100%damage. And I would consider a diffrent rune for Exploding Palm... Exploding Palm is all about high AoE Damage (30% HP Bomb)... so IMHO Indigo is the best rune you can get for it. But that is only my opinion

    Edit2: If I were to use Combination Strike I would go for something like this http://us.battle.net...UjQR!XYg!ZcYZca using the Strike order from above. As long as 7SS is on CD I would use Mantra of Conviction for the 3sec 20%damage increase (it also heals a small amount through Transcendence).


    With edit 1 I would disagree indigo rune being the best rune. In my opinion its tied with crimson. With the Dot doing 30% of max HP to enemies you only need 4 ( well 3.1 but still) worth of just the explosion to kill the enemies ( assuming the pack of enemies are all the same thing) With crimson increasing the debuff duration means that when you use apply the DoT the odds of that enemy dying are a lot higher. This means that you wont be rushing to get the next wave of DoTs out. You can leave that enemy be and go after something else , maybe even the leader of that pack and damage him so the explosion will kill him .after applying 2 or 3 the enemies would die and finish the last of them off. Crimson also gives you that option to single targets and let you keep your distance but lets you keep damaging him. However that being said I can say indigo with exploding palms is nothing to be looked down at. Being able to send out Many of the DoTs means you can use the skill once and be done with it because you will have many targets bleeding and potentially exploding.

    I have thought about replacing sixth sense with transcendence. And moving breath of heaven to 7SS for very similar purpose you said in edit 2, what are your thoughts ?


    Well even if you only need 3.3 Bombs to kill the group... having more DoTs also means that all of them bleed for the 65%dmg (times 3sec). So even if they dont explode they still take the bleeding damage. Also like you already said if you have mixed groups its not said that they all die if you only have 3.3 Bombs... but its a nice way to get the enemies down if you DoT the ranged/casters and kill them quick (they should be priority targets anyways...), when they explode you will do some nice damage to the rest of the group.

    But the Crimson rune is also intresting... if you combine the Crimson EP with Crimson WothF you have 2 DoTs that last 5/7secs. So you can DoT one Mob and then change targets. So Dash with WothF adding the 30%dmg DoT (5sec) -> WothF 8 Strikes -> Exploding Palm adding the 2nd DoT with 65%dmg (7sec).

    On your thought about replacing Sixth Sense with Transcendence... my first question would be why did you choose The Guardians Path? Are you planing to use a 2H Weapon or 2*1H Weapons? If you took The Guardians Path because the 10% Dodge while DWing I would consider replacing The Guardians Path with Transcendece and keep Sixth Sense. You want crit anyways for Obsidian WothF... and you only need >20%crit for Sixth Sense to surpass The Guardians Path (and I guess 20%crit is doable with lvl60 Items). If you are planing to use 2H Weapons I would keep The Guardians Path.

    That brings me back to your initial question... Sixth Sense vs. Transcendence... thats a hard one. If you do the BoH -> 7SS combined with Sixth Sense -> Transcendence it could be very good... lets look at some numbers. Indigo BoH heals for 12337 - 18505 HP for 50 Spirit. If you use 50 Spirit combined with Transcendence you heal yourself for 50*118.6 = 5930 HP. Thats 1/2 - 1/3 of BoHs Heal. But if you think about the ways you can use the 50 Spirit I think Transcendence pulls ahead... if you use 7SS you heal yourself for 5930HP and are immune during the animation.. but you could also use Mantra of Evasion two times to heal yourself AND get the 3sec 25% Dodge Bonus. If you use Mantra of Evasion you once you heal yourself for 2965 HP and get 25% Dodge for 3sec... then you use it again after 3sec to again heal for 2965HP and again gain 25% Dodge for 3sec. If you need the 5930 HP in one go just use Mantra of Evasion 2 times in a row to get the Heal and 3sec buff (if you fear that you get bursted down otherwise).

    So in conclusion I think that Transcendence > Sixth Sense. That is if you want to keep The Guardians Path. If you dont want to keep it I would change The Guardians Path -> Transcendence and keep Sixth Sense. Also going from BoH to 7SS seems worth it if you have Transcendence (if you dont have Transcendence you lack a little bit of survivability).
  • #26
    Below, there is a link to my Polish blog about Monk. I made my personal pick-list of 1st and 2nd runed Spirit generators worth to use with Combination Strike.

    Do not fear. On my blog, there is implemented google translator (right top corner). :)

    http://szaolin.blogspot.com/2012/02/jak-dobrze-uzyc-combination-strike.html
  • #27
    I would be duel wielding on my monk. I never though about replacing guardians path =0 I feel a bit embarrassed that I did not think of that. In my build i planed on using the fast attack speed to keep my spirit up and use dashing strike and its obsidian rune. If I had spirit to use I would then use the mantra for its first 3 seconds of extra dodge, using breath of heaven as a panic heal button. Switching out breath of heaven for 7SS and replacing guardians path would give me a fair amount of HP due to how much I would want to use dashing strike and my mantra . using 7SS when i can and when I would need to soften or kill a large group. Thats my plan at lest.

    End Of Line
  • #28
    @7SS topic: I honestly feel if you want to use 7SS you have to tailor it more toward the job you want it to do. The three main damage ones, indigo, alabaster, crimson, all have their merits in different situations. The problem becomes when do you decide to use 7SS. Think of it this way. Lets say we use 7SS for any situation that is 2 or less targets, with the indigo or crimson rune of course. Would this be enough to shift the focus of the Spirit Generators away from single target? Switching the rune in Exploding Palm or even changing one of the single target focused attacks to Sweeping Wind or Deadly Reach indigo. Just a thought.

    Even if not I would say that all three of those runes are perfectly good contenders for 7SS damage. All you have to remember is when and where to use them. Also it does look like 7SS (at least the last time we saw it) has a very small radius of effect.

    @ Tenhi: Getting 100 spirit for Wave may be easier than you think. I was using only melee attacks on mobs and found myself generating spirit. I really don't know the exact mechanics that are currently in use with spirit regen but it may generate much faster than the 30sec CD of the move it contends with (7SS)

    @ Rym: By the looks of it I would say you should change Guardians if you are using that Mantra. I only say this because, and correct me if I'm wrong, diminishing returns on dodge. You will get your mantra bonus but you will get a reduced amount from Guardians path (or vice versa). I would choose Size the Initiative over it personally. You have a better balanced defense with these changes.

    Also there is a different option. Change the mantra away from dodge. You mentioned taking away Breath of Heaven. How about putting on Mantra of Healing instead? Just a thought. I really like Mantra of Healing.

    Edit: sorry for the laziness in not quoting the posts were just getting too long x.x
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  • #29
    Don't want to dig in a specific build, but in my opinion transcendence is best for a build with a high spirit generation and therefore spending.
    Using golden runes on spirit generators, other spirit generating skills (runed) and passives and a frequently used spirit dump.

    Make the most out of synergies :)
  • #30
    Quote from azuresky808

    Edit: sorry for the laziness in not quoting the posts were just getting too long x.x

    I could not agree more.
    Quote from azuresky808

    By the looks of it I would say you should change Guardians if you are using that Mantra. I only say this because, and correct me if I'm wrong, diminishing returns on dodge. You will get your mantra bonus but you will get a reduced amount from Guardians path (or vice versa). I would choose Size the Initiative over it personally. You have a better balanced defense with these changes.

    Also there is a different option. Change the mantra away from dodge. You mentioned taking away Breath of Heaven. How about putting on Mantra of Healing instead? Just a thought. I really like Mantra of Healing.



    I am aware of diminishing returns. I am keeping mantra of evasion because of a few reasons. one of them being that taking no damage over reducing it is a good choice in my books and having the obsidian rune means getting more armor. I do like size the initiative but theres no room for what I would like to do with my build.

    Quote from azuresky808

    Even if not I would say that all three of those runes are perfectly good contenders for 7SS damage. All you have to remember is when and where to use them. Also it does look like 7SS (at least the last time we saw it) has a very small radius of effect.


    There is a more recent video with 7SS in it and it has a MUCH greater radius .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKOmX4oDAUE
    That video shows its new range.

    End Of Line
  • #31
    Quote from Axtroz

    Don't want to dig in a specific build, but in my opinion transcendence is best for a build with a high spirit generation and therefore spending.
    Using golden runes on spirit generators, other spirit generating skills (runed) and passives and a frequently used spirit dump.

    Make the most out of synergies :)

    Oh I don't intend on using this build outside of mucking about when I get bored of other setups I have in mind. For monk in particular I'm going to work on a tanking duel wield and a high spirit generation 2h build, by the way I was going to put both of them up probably tonight to see what the community thinks of them.

    Though this one particular build I thought really should be looked at because it may have some serious potential. As of now we really do not know the capeability of this type of build until the game is officially released. (speaking of which I am deeply saddened about the news of Q2 release)

    @Rym: Thanks for the video! I did not know we had recent footage of it (not blizzcon). Still the graphic looks quite slow but it appears the range was improved. I did not know that you were already deciding to commit to Mantra so heavily. Still as you said Breath of Heaven is a good skill to second guess because of your already high dodge (and you can get weapons the convert damage to health). I did not know if you already thought of this option but what about using 7SS or Way with crimson rune instead of using Dashing Strike to get around? I understand that Way + onyx is very synergistic with that build in particular but there still is the option of switching Dashing for 7SS with crimson to maintain a decent mobility. Just a thought.
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  • #32
    On the topic of 7SS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=U0F2wPZWdYk

    There are quite a few times he uses 7SS AND Wave of Light all in the same build. It looks like the range is quite further than the symbol on the ground but if you notice as well the attacks happen quite quickly (all under 2 seconds it seems).
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  • #33
    Quote from azuresky808

    @Rym: Thanks for the video! I did not know we had recent footage of it (not blizzcon). Still the graphic looks quite slow but it appears the range was improved. I did not know that you were already deciding to commit to Mantra so heavily. Still as you said Breath of Heaven is a good skill to second guess because of your already high dodge (and you can get weapons the convert damage to health). I did not know if you already thought of this option but what about using 7SS or Way with crimson rune instead of using Dashing Strike to get around? I understand that Way + onyx is very synergistic with that build in particular but there still is the option of switching Dashing for 7SS with crimson to maintain a decent mobility. Just a thought.

    I really like Dashing strike with obsidian rune. The skill gives me mobility, dodge, damage and a root for those quick and possibly tricky casters or range enemies. With combination strike and my generators I think I would be ok. That being said . I am a bit on the fence when it comes to my build.

    Quote from azuresky808

    On the topic of 7SS

    http://www.youtube.c...d&v=U0F2wPZWdYk

    There are quite a few times he uses 7SS AND Wave of Light all in the same build. It looks like the range is quite further than the symbol on the ground but if you notice as well the attacks happen quite quickly (all under 2 seconds it seems).

    If I recall. When that was made wave of light had a lower cost? I could be mistaken. However I know what you mean by they are both used. It could be that spirit is not a problem and that we are all nervous of something that was not to be worried about.

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  • #34
    Edit: I'm dumb. Didn't read it was from Blizzcon.
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  • #35
    Quote from azuresky808

    Quote from Rym

    If I recall. When that was made wave of light had a lower cost? I could be mistaken. However I know what you mean by they are both used. It could be that spirit is not a problem and that we are all nervous of something that was not to be worried about.


    We don't know exactly when they footage was taken. We do know 2 things though. It is footage that has never been seen before, and it was footage that was released today. You might be correct though. He does the dash followed by 7SS (remember crits give u spirit no matter what move you use) than Wave right after using Way. So he should have the spirit for it. Taking a look now it looks like 7SS used much less than 1/3 of the bar so he probably has the +100 spirit cap passive.

    Edit: watched even closer. Looks like it is costing 100, but he doesn't have the passive. Question, how much did it cost before?

    It could be from when max spirit was 200 . 7SS has gone from being 50, to 75 ( I don't think it hit 100) . Its been all over the place.

    So for my build tho Im bouncing between these 2 basically
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#UiedXb!ZWg!ZcccYc
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#Uiedjb!YWg!ZcccYc

    They are similar yet different. I would not mind getting your thoughts Azuresky and Tenhi. I plan to use dashing strike a lot and if i have the spirit the first 3 seconds from mantra of evasion .

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  • #36
    Quote from Rym

    If I recall. When that was made wave of light had a lower cost? I could be mistaken. However I know what you mean by they are both used. It could be that spirit is not a problem and that we are all nervous of something that was not to be worried about.


    Yep the Vid was released during BlizzCon 2011.... I think back then Wave of Light was 60 Spirit and 15sec CD. 7SS was 90 Spirit and 30sec CD... then again we had a 200 Spirit pool :/. That Vid is outdated like hell... just look at Tempest Rush not costing any Spirit xD
  • #37
    Personally I would use the 7SS build. Mainly because we really do not know the usefulness of more healing as opposed to more damage. The only thing I can see that bothers me a tad with 7SS is that Transcendence may only have limited effect since you will most likely not be using every drop of spirit you generate. I suppose popping the Mantra can help with that but I bet you will be overflowing with spirit more so than not.

    25 spirit with a 3sec CD I believe when you generate (duel wielding) about 10 per second. This does not even take into account that you have some odd ways to generate spirit, like critting an enemy for example.

    Spirit is odd like Fury. There are a few ways to generate it outside the normal generators. Some of them even rely on combat mechanics like taking damage or critting an opponent. Always found that odd when you have classes that need to stay at range and don't get bonuses like that for their resources.
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  • #38
    Quote from azuresky808

    Personally I would use the 7SS build. Mainly because we really do not know the usefulness of more healing as opposed to more damage. The only thing I can see that bothers me a tad with 7SS is that Transcendence may only have limited effect since you will most likely not be using every drop of spirit you generate. I suppose popping the Mantra can help with that but I bet you will be overflowing with spirit more so than not.

    25 spirit with a 3sec CD I believe when you generate (duel wielding) about 10 per second. This does not even take into account that you have some odd ways to generate spirit, like critting an enemy for example.

    Spirit is odd like Fury. There are a few ways to generate it outside the normal generators. Some of them even rely on combat mechanics like taking damage or critting an opponent. Always found that odd when you have classes that need to stay at range and don't get bonuses like that for their resources.

    Wait one thing at a time. You get spirit when you crit? this is new to me O.o . With obsidian rune on way of the hundred fist I intend to be getting way more then 10 spirit per second. As for me being overflowed in spirit that could be the case. Would a 30 second cooldown really be that big a difference ? breath of heaven is a good panic button . Not to mention all the dodge form the mantra and dashing strike. However with transcendence using dashing strike and mantra and 7SS would give me a smaller more constant heal rather then a burst. I don't think this would fix that overflow of spirit problem tho. Funny, my build may be one of very few where spirit may be overabundant
    I do see where your coming from. Im just playing devils advocate to see what points come up that we did not think of.

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  • #39
    Quote from azuresky808

    Personally I would use the 7SS build. Mainly because we really do not know the usefulness of more healing as opposed to more damage. The only thing I can see that bothers me a tad with 7SS is that Transcendence may only have limited effect since you will most likely not be using every drop of spirit you generate. I suppose popping the Mantra can help with that but I bet you will be overflowing with spirit more so than not.

    25 spirit with a 3sec CD I believe when you generate (duel wielding) about 10 per second. This does not even take into account that you have some odd ways to generate spirit, like critting an enemy for example.

    Spirit is odd like Fury. There are a few ways to generate it outside the normal generators. Some of them even rely on combat mechanics like taking damage or critting an opponent. Always found that odd when you have classes that need to stay at range and don't get bonuses like that for their resources.


    Since when do you get Spirit if you are hit? Or if you crit? As far as I know you only get Spirit through your Gens. Spirit doesnt behave like Fury.

    Also about overflowing with Spirit. He can use Mantra of Evasion every 3sec for 25 Spirit and Dashing Strike every 2sec for 15 Spirit. So in 30sec he generates 10 Spirit/sec*30sec = 300 Spirit (using your 10 Spirit/sec) and he uses 10*25 Spirit+15*15Spirit+2*50Spirit = 575 Spirit... that is if he tries to keep the buffs up.

    If we dont account for things like lag and reaction times he uses the above mentioned 575 Spirit during a 30sec fight. To match that Spirit usage he needs a generation of 575Spirit/30sec = 19.167 Spirit/sec. Thats almost double the amount you assumed he would generate... so I guess with spaming Mantra/Dash he is good to go for all we know :)

    Edit: Now that we are talking about that... I run into the same problem... I have no constant Spirit dump in my build. And 10Spirit/sec seems... low? We get 6 Spirit per Attack so to get 10 Spirit/sec we need an Attackspeed of 1.67 Attacks/sec. Fist Weapons have a base Attackspeed of 1.4 Attacks/sec... while dualwielding you get +15% Attackspeed so we end up with 1.4*1.15 = 1.61 Attacks/sec. And thats without any other sources of Attackspeed. If you now add the 3 Stacks of Obsidian WotHF we end up with way more than 1.67 Attacks/sec... with 3 Stacks we are at 2.282 Attacks/sec and thuse 2.28*6 Spirit per second... thats 13.692 Spirit/sec. If you now start to add +Attackspeed gear you get even higher numbers.

    You should also note that most Spirit Gens dont attack with the "normal" attackspeed... they have a (hidden) attackspeed modifier... look here for some examples: http://us.battle.net...pic/3811455189. The tool tip for Fists of Thunder says that its the fastet spirit gen... and if we look at the numbers it has a ~52% higher attackspeed... so WotHF has something lower than that... but if you look at the other Spirit gens they have something between 15-46%. Even if we only assume an other 15% for WotHF that puts us with 3 Stacks and DW at 2.492 Attacks/sec and thuse 14.952 Spirit/sec.

    Edit2: That all completly neglects movement/lag/reaction times... so its not very accurate :)
  • #40
    Oh I totally understand.

    First off I put my generators on CD by accident in a dungeon a day or two back and I was generating spirit still in combat. It was not much, however it was there. I don't know if this is a bug or intended so if you have the beta try it yourself (I will do the same in a little bit).

    Second, you get around 8.4(sorry had to check the math I was making assumptions from higher speed weapons) spirit per sec while duel wielding without buffs. So you generate much less than you will use on the Mantra.

    I would say, after that clarification, 7SS looks very solid. Not as spirit deprived as most builds and provides at least a decent amount of healing over time as well as having a really good outlet for extra spirit. Also I may change Wave of Light on my build to 7SS as well. It's damage arc looks a little too 'straight line' for a melee fighter.

    @Tenhi It would be impossible to keep stacks of Combination Strike if you spam ALL of those every chance you get. Dashing Strike is a huge DPS loss with this build seeing as how most of his attacks will ramp up with Way and that one will not. The build is not intending to use Dashing Strike at every chance that would be rather absurd. That would also free up 225 spirit making your net change in spirit to be 252(with the correct total) generated and 350 spent. Still then he said himself that he did not have intent on spamming the Mantra at every available chance.
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