The skeletons missiles aren't properly a skill. It's just his version of normal attack (think a about a wizard using wand to normal attack and shooting bolts of energy). I think this way because he does not do any other kind of attack, so that purple orb have to be his normal attack.
I doubt monks will evade meteors, for example. But I don't kno, it might happen.
Dodge vs all magic? I don't think so. It would be OP.
I fail to see why that would be op.
I can see it being op in some games like WoW, where a spell has a casting time and homing.
However, in Diablo, spells are as spammable as melee attacks/ranged attacks and are manually aimed just like them. Explain how it would be op?
Not all spells are spammable. Many have cooldowns or really high resource costs. Others are just really hard to aim and it would be unfair to avoid then.
For exemple, avading a Frost Nova or a Mass Confusion would certainly be OP.
Dodge, as far as my beta testing shows, works on ANY damage. I can stand in a pool of acid: dodge. I can get hit by electric bolts: dodge. And yes, it is op. Especially considering that a monk can get at minimum 93% damage reduction from mobs by level 30, with proper runes. Take http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#beXhWZ!UaX!ccacYY as a very rough build to see what I mean. THATS op.
Dodge, as far as my beta testing shows, works on ANY damage. I can stand in a pool of acid: dodge. I can get hit by electric bolts: dodge. And yes, it is op. Especially considering that a monk can get at minimum 93% damage reduction from mobs by level 30, with proper runes. Take http://eu.battle.net...XhWZ!UaX!ccacYY as a very rough build to see what I mean. THATS op.
Where do you get the 93%dmg reduction from? If I look at your build you get 40% from Crippling Wave and 30% from Resolve... if you look at how other things are handeld (e.g. Dodge) its very likely that you dont add 40%+30% but you calculate it like 1-0.6*0.7 = 0.58 = 58%dmg reduction. Also we dont know if there is an cap on the dmgreduction... else you could stack it way to easy to high numbers... like this: http://eu.battle.net.../monk#eTR!a!cZa Tempest Rush + Mantra of Conviction + Crippling Wave + Resolve... 45%+30%+40%+30% Oo that would add up to 1-0.55*0.7*0.6*0.7 = 0,8383 = 83,83%dmg reduction.
That being said we dont know how Defense plays into that... we dont know if there is a cap. We also dont know if there is an Armour cap or anything else. Also if you think about it... why is dodging Spells OP? You can dodge melee attacks and they are affected by armour... spells are only affected by resis. So if you think about it... if you cant dodge spells arent melee attacks UP? Also in Diablo the Spells arent like the WoW Spells where most spells have a cast time... most Diablo Spells dont have a casttime and they dont have CDs (some very powerful spells have a CD... but if you look at it the most CDs are on utility/cc spells and not on the dmg spells). So why is dodging spells worse than dodging melee attacks?
Well, lets do some pessimistic (lower end) calculations.
First abilities:
Mantra of evasion: 50% to ALL sources of damage for the group, 2.2 Multipler to armor for the group.
Crippling Wave: 35% reduction to enemy attack speed, 40% reduction to their damage.
Breath of heaven: massive aoe heal plus 2.5 second AOE hard CC with no CD.
Blinding flash: 5 second AOE soft CC followed by 30% miss rate to all enemies. 2 times every 15 seconds.
Seize the initiative: 25% of attack added to defense.
One with Everything: Potentially a 5x multiplier for resistances.
Now this is excluding Resolve's 30% reduction, because as you said, were not sure if it stacks, or if it's additive or multiplicative. This is also not the most tanky build, but gives you a few nice damage abilities.
1 * (.5(dodge)) * (.65(attack speed)) * (.6(damage reduction)) * (.7(miss)) = .1365, or 86.35% damage reduction so far. Add in the 2.2x armor bonus and 5x elemental bonus and the constant CC from abilities, and yes, 93-95% damage reduction is a very LOW estimate. The upper end estimate would add in Resolve as multiplicative, and the armor/resistance/defense bonuses and you get perhaps as high as 97%. How is that ever a good thing for game balance?
Well, lets do some pessimistic (lower end) calculations.
First abilities:
Mantra of evasion: 50% to ALL sources of damage for the group, 2.2 Multipler to armor for the group.
Crippling Wave: 35% reduction to enemy attack speed, 40% reduction to their damage.
Breath of heaven: massive aoe heal plus 2.5 second AOE hard CC with no CD.
Blinding flash: 5 second AOE soft CC followed by 30% miss rate to all enemies. 2 times every 15 seconds.
Seize the initiative: 25% of attack added to defense.
One with Everything: Potentially a 5x multiplier for resistances.
Now this is excluding Resolve's 30% reduction, because as you said, were not sure if it stacks, or if it's additive or multiplicative. This is also not the most tanky build, but gives you a few nice damage abilities.
1 * (.5(dodge)) * (.65(attack speed)) * (.6(damage reduction)) * (.7(miss)) = .1365, or 86.35% damage reduction so far. Add in the 2.2x armor bonus and 5x elemental bonus and the constant CC from abilities, and yes, 93-95% damage reduction is a very LOW estimate. The upper end estimate would add in Resolve as multiplicative, and the armor/resistance/defense bonuses and you get perhaps as high as 97%. How is that ever a good thing for game balance?
Let's not forget that this is all pure theorycrafting as none of us has tested this build yet. Still, there are several points in your assumption that need a second look:
a.) you might overestimate the power of some of your defense abilities: Both MoE (the bonus part) and BF are short duration buffs that need to be recast and thus need a lot of spirit (see b.)). CW debuff only works on point blank range and not even until the third hit, preventing you from creating SW's cyclones until the 6th hit (see c.)). OwE only works for 3 elements btw.
b.) your assuming that you have enough spirit to constantly recast your Mantra and cast BF. Even if that is the case, you still need spirit for healing (as there won't drop healing pots for a long time due to your low killing speed) and/or CS, your only true damage source.
c.) simply put, you won't do any damage. You're acting as if survivability was a purely passive matter but the best damage reduction is still killing your opponent. Take into account that with the addition of the health globe and XP-combo system D3 is basically rewarding you for killing quickly. Without killing speed and any mobility I can see you getting surrounded pretty easily on higher difficulties and THAT is never a good thing. Your generators hardly do more damage than just a regular attack for at least 8 hits so you might have to rely on CS which has a really high spirit cost. Then again, we know almost nothing about spirit generation, so...
tl;dr: Your build is really strong and definitely looks viable for the late game. But I don't think the concept of stacking as much tanking power as possible is OP (at least in SP). You're completely ignoring armor from gear and the "Defense" attribute (which enhances dmg reduction of every kind). I don't have the exact numbers but those two alone might reduce the damage you receive by 50%, effectively halving the reduction you get from your skills. What I'm trying to say is: every character has a lot of damage reduction. The damage done be monsters is accordingly adjusted what leaves you toying with diminishing returns here. Besides that, playing this build might be boring as hell
Thanks for the response, and let me clarify a few of your rebuttals.
a.)MoE bonus is short (3 seconds) but only costs 25 spirit. A monks average spirit generation is close to 20 Spirit/second on beta atm. BF is not exactly short (7.5 seconds every 15) and is also dirt cheap (10 spirit). CW are 'large sweeping strikes' with the 3rd attacking being an even larger AOE, guessing about 8 yards. You get a 3rd strike about once every 1.5 seconds. Why does OWE only work for 3? there are 5 elements.
b.) As mentioned previously, you generate about 300 spirit per 15 seconds. In that time you will use 125 for MoE, 10 for BF with 165 left over for heals or cyclone strike. CS is not the only damage source, Sweeping wind should be a large part in fact (along with heal dot, CW) and of course the other people in your group, who no longer have to worry about survival stats.
c.) You will do less damage then a pure damage build, but this build if a quasi tank build, allowing your teammates to focus more on killing. The xp combo system is trivial amounts of XP. With this build, you WANT to be surrounded, so that you can debuff and AOE even MORE mobs. You're not going to die with 93-97% damage reduction, heals, and teammates.
tl:dr.) Stacking survive and the AOE grab allows you to play a tank role, freeing up teammates to focus on AOE and damage. Removing the risk of death does trivialize the hardest content, since you can continuously push through it. Adding more survive from defense does not reduce the effectiveness of this build, since it is all relative. Moving from 96% reduction to 98% reduction is HUGE btw (50% less damage) for example. And I don't think is boring to AOE pull, hit, slow, cc, debuff all the mobs on your screen and live.
Defense reduces ALL damage.
Armor reduces melee damage (not sure about bows/CB)
Resists reduces spell damage.
So it's logical that Dodge works with ALL attacks, spells included.
I would agree that dodge should work with all ACTIVE spells and attacks, but it is also working against what I would consider environmental damage or dots after they have been applied. Lets say there is a spell with an upfront damage component and an applied dot. You could dodge the initial, (avoiding the dot application), or if you don't, you can also dodge each dot tick. This is double dipping the avoidance.
The other issue I have with this aura is just the raw amount of HARD avoidance it gives you. One skill giving 50% avoidance and a 2.2 armor multiplier FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP is a bit much.
Thanks for the response, and let me clarify a few of your rebuttals.
a.)MoE bonus is short (3 seconds) but only costs 25 spirit. A monks average spirit generation is close to 20 Spirit/second on beta atm. BF is not exactly short (7.5 seconds every 15) and is also dirt cheap (10 spirit). CW are 'large sweeping strikes' with the 3rd attacking being an even larger AOE, guessing about 8 yards. You get a 3rd strike about once every 1.5 seconds. Why does OWE only work for 3? there are 5 elements.
b.) As mentioned previously, you generate about 300 spirit per 15 seconds. In that time you will use 125 for MoE, 10 for BF with 165 left over for heals or cyclone strike. CS is not the only damage source, Sweeping wind should be a large part in fact (along with heal dot, CW) and of course the other people in your group, who no longer have to worry about survival stats.
c.) You will do less damage then a pure damage build, but this build if a quasi tank build, allowing your teammates to focus more on killing. The xp combo system is trivial amounts of XP. With this build, you WANT to be surrounded, so that you can debuff and AOE even MORE mobs. You're not going to die with 93-97% damage reduction, heals, and teammates.
tl:dr.) Stacking survive and the AOE grab allows you to play a tank role, freeing up teammates to focus on AOE and damage. Removing the risk of death does trivialize the hardest content, since you can continuously push through it. Adding more survive from defense does not reduce the effectiveness of this build, since it is all relative. Moving from 96% reduction to 98% reduction is HUGE btw (50% less damage) for example. And I don't think is boring to AOE pull, hit, slow, cc, debuff all the mobs on your screen and live.
Thanks for your answer. Don't wanna go into too much detail, just some minor points:
- OwE most likely only affects Fire, Ice and Lightning. The other damage types are not considered "elements".
- The way I read the Indigo BF description, the whole duration is only 5.5 seconds with a total of 2 flashes, one instant flash and another one after 3 seconds.
- I don't own the beta. How do you get 20 spirit/second? Just from a theory standpoint, you attack with like 1.5 aps which equals about 9 spirit/second (and you still need to attack). As said in many other threads though, we don't know much about spirit regeneration from gear so far.
Guess well just have to wait and see on OwE, but all 5 are listed as elements, so I would assume all 5.
The blind would only be 5.5 per 15, just a refresh 2 seconds early on the first flash.
I get a 3rd* strike roughly every 1.5 seconds, meaning 2 aps. Also, items can and skills can add spirit generation. Ill try to get some more real numbers from beta later.
Ok, so a few rough numbers from the beta. As many people know, different weapons have different attack speed. Dual-wielding weapons make for even faster attack rates (slightly below the average of the two). The calculation for dual-wielding weapon speed is probably floating around the forum somewhere.
To get to my point, using two fast (1.5 APS) weapons, I get about 2 APS total. This is with little to no attack speed buffs, so a base line of 2 APS is fine. This means, from spirit generating attacks alone, you get at a minimum 12 spirit/second. In 15 seconds, that means 180 spirit generated. That means you have enough spirit for MoE + Blind (135 per 15) with 45 left over.
So at low gear levels, you have enough spirit for the core abilities, but wont be able to spam heals or CS. As your gear increases, you should be able to spam more heals and CS. I also modified my build to be a little more friendly, adding in passive heals and easier SW stacks. http://eu.battle.net...XhWZ!UaY!ccaacb
Ah a very good source for various attack speeds: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455189
Dual-weilding speed bonus is 15%, and CW gets an additional 16% speed bonus over character sheet. This equals 2.001 APS for CW.
I think dodging spells will not be OP, with the monk being a bit frail the dodge will help keep him alive, spells or melee alike. I was worried that resistances was going to be the only way to dampen damage you take from spells.
I think dodging spells will not be OP, with the monk being a bit frail the dodge will help keep him alive, spells or melee alike. I was worried that resistances was going to be the only way to dampen damage you take from spells.
To dodge non-signature spell is 100% op. Because monk already has the highest resistance to all elemental spells.
From current view a dodge monk is invincible, becasue only the physical spells can hurt him/her and monk can heal.
If you say a character with 80% dodge chance & 95% resistance to elements & also can heal is not OP,thenwhat is OP??
I think dodging spells will not be OP, with the monk being a bit frail the dodge will help keep him alive, spells or melee alike. I was worried that resistances was going to be the only way to dampen damage you take from spells.
To dodge non-signature spell is 100% op. Because monk already has the highest resistance to all elemental spells.
From current view a dodge monk is invincible, becasue only the physical spells can hurt him/her and monk can heal.
If you say a character with 80% dodge chance & 95% resistance to elements & also can heal is not OP,thenwhat is OP??
All that you have said is true. However for a monk to have that much dodge and that much resistance would not hit all that hard. As well as the monk will not have a lot of health, so your odds of hitting him might not by that high, but turning him into a blood smear on the floor may not take that many hits. Just a thought, you may very well be right and i may be wrong.
Same with the ranged attack of the zombie that summons more zombies.
The skeletons missiles aren't properly a skill. It's just his version of normal attack (think a about a wizard using wand to normal attack and shooting bolts of energy). I think this way because he does not do any other kind of attack, so that purple orb have to be his normal attack.
I doubt monks will evade meteors, for example. But I don't kno, it might happen.
I fail to see why that would be op.
I can see it being op in some games like WoW, where a spell has a casting time and homing.
However, in Diablo, spells are as spammable as melee attacks/ranged attacks and are manually aimed just like them. Explain how it would be op?
Not all spells are spammable. Many have cooldowns or really high resource costs. Others are just really hard to aim and it would be unfair to avoid then.
For exemple, avading a Frost Nova or a Mass Confusion would certainly be OP.
Well, lets do some pessimistic (lower end) calculations.
First abilities:
Mantra of evasion: 50% to ALL sources of damage for the group, 2.2 Multipler to armor for the group.
Crippling Wave: 35% reduction to enemy attack speed, 40% reduction to their damage.
Breath of heaven: massive aoe heal plus 2.5 second AOE hard CC with no CD.
Blinding flash: 5 second AOE soft CC followed by 30% miss rate to all enemies. 2 times every 15 seconds.
Seize the initiative: 25% of attack added to defense.
One with Everything: Potentially a 5x multiplier for resistances.
Now this is excluding Resolve's 30% reduction, because as you said, were not sure if it stacks, or if it's additive or multiplicative. This is also not the most tanky build, but gives you a few nice damage abilities.
1 * (.5(dodge)) * (.65(attack speed)) * (.6(damage reduction)) * (.7(miss)) = .1365, or 86.35% damage reduction so far. Add in the 2.2x armor bonus and 5x elemental bonus and the constant CC from abilities, and yes, 93-95% damage reduction is a very LOW estimate. The upper end estimate would add in Resolve as multiplicative, and the armor/resistance/defense bonuses and you get perhaps as high as 97%. How is that ever a good thing for game balance?
a.)MoE bonus is short (3 seconds) but only costs 25 spirit. A monks average spirit generation is close to 20 Spirit/second on beta atm. BF is not exactly short (7.5 seconds every 15) and is also dirt cheap (10 spirit). CW are 'large sweeping strikes' with the 3rd attacking being an even larger AOE, guessing about 8 yards. You get a 3rd strike about once every 1.5 seconds. Why does OWE only work for 3? there are 5 elements.
b.) As mentioned previously, you generate about 300 spirit per 15 seconds. In that time you will use 125 for MoE, 10 for BF with 165 left over for heals or cyclone strike. CS is not the only damage source, Sweeping wind should be a large part in fact (along with heal dot, CW) and of course the other people in your group, who no longer have to worry about survival stats.
c.) You will do less damage then a pure damage build, but this build if a quasi tank build, allowing your teammates to focus more on killing. The xp combo system is trivial amounts of XP. With this build, you WANT to be surrounded, so that you can debuff and AOE even MORE mobs. You're not going to die with 93-97% damage reduction, heals, and teammates.
tl:dr.) Stacking survive and the AOE grab allows you to play a tank role, freeing up teammates to focus on AOE and damage. Removing the risk of death does trivialize the hardest content, since you can continuously push through it. Adding more survive from defense does not reduce the effectiveness of this build, since it is all relative. Moving from 96% reduction to 98% reduction is HUGE btw (50% less damage) for example. And I don't think is boring to AOE pull, hit, slow, cc, debuff all the mobs on your screen and live.
The other issue I have with this aura is just the raw amount of HARD avoidance it gives you. One skill giving 50% avoidance and a 2.2 armor multiplier FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP is a bit much.
The blind would only be 5.5 per 15, just a refresh 2 seconds early on the first flash.
I get a 3rd* strike roughly every 1.5 seconds, meaning 2 aps. Also, items can and skills can add spirit generation. Ill try to get some more real numbers from beta later.
To get to my point, using two fast (1.5 APS) weapons, I get about 2 APS total. This is with little to no attack speed buffs, so a base line of 2 APS is fine. This means, from spirit generating attacks alone, you get at a minimum 12 spirit/second. In 15 seconds, that means 180 spirit generated. That means you have enough spirit for MoE + Blind (135 per 15) with 45 left over.
So at low gear levels, you have enough spirit for the core abilities, but wont be able to spam heals or CS. As your gear increases, you should be able to spam more heals and CS. I also modified my build to be a little more friendly, adding in passive heals and easier SW stacks. http://eu.battle.net...XhWZ!UaY!ccaacb
Dual-weilding speed bonus is 15%, and CW gets an additional 16% speed bonus over character sheet. This equals 2.001 APS for CW.
To dodge non-signature spell is 100% op. Because monk already has the highest resistance to all elemental spells.
From current view a dodge monk is invincible, becasue only the physical spells can hurt him/her and monk can heal.
If you say a character with 80% dodge chance & 95% resistance to elements & also can heal is not OP,then what is OP??