You are not taking into account the build up time to get 4/5 sentries out. A Raekor barb has higher burst damage against packs, Wizards are clearing like 2 levels lower than DH on leaderboards, every top group has demon hunters but they are also using other classes. Different classes / builds will take different rolls especially in higher GR simply due to the fact that everything one shots you so you need insane tanking, CC and DPS.
Sure M6 is relatively OP but not as much as people make it sound. the bigger problem here is the GR design... I mean, what did people expect when they knew that GR mob damage will scale this way? It was obvious that kiting will be the way to go at least untill people figure some stuff out.
I think the real outcry here should be to fix the other classes and not nerf the DH because even though most of you don't think so, but playing m6 DH on high GR is quite challenging and is not as easy as it might look on some of the YT videos where people clear a lvl 40 GR with the easiest mob / affix combo ever... You need to avoid like 100% of the damage so character placement and movement, sentries placement and skill timing all come into play. If you give 100 people end game M6 gear, 90% of them won't get past GR 35 in my opinion.
Still, i can understand a nerf on sentries in terms of how far do you have to be for them to still shoot or directly on their range or whatever but i really don't think that will solve anything... Even if they made sentries shoot only if you are 20 yards away from them, you can just reroll the GR untill you get an indoor level where you can place sentries and hide behind corners.
TLDR: M6 not as op as people think. Other builds have higher burst damage. They need to buff other classes. The nerf to sentries should probably only involve their range or the distance you have to be from them so they can shoot and even then that won't really solve anything therefore buffing the other classes is the optimal option.
"x 5, since you have five sentries, and that's 5,500% weapon damage x 20% x 30% = 8,580% weapon damage PER VOLLEY and this is just using ONE spender, the turrets use all 3 and they don't alternate, they fire all three every volley."
It is OP because DH is such bad class that he needs 3 of his skills fired for free by 1-5 static turrets. If you still can't see how badly designed this is I just feel sorry for you. Don't understand me wrong I like the idea of sentries using skills but how it works right now is just terrible and is just the result of blizzard poor balancing job like always. something like this would be fixed in torchlight 2 in under a month by the community if it had to come this far. If they can't at least buff the numbers on all the bad skills in 2 month than I believe the skill fixing was done by a lonely intern in his break time.
If you still didn't realize that Blizzard's approach to balance in d3 is not simply increasing low numbers then it is i who feel sorry for you. Your argument is invalid... I can claim the same basically about every class if we look specifically at high GR gameplay. DH is not underpowered because it has m6... it's overpowered because it has m6... It's like saying that monk is performing crap because it has flying dragon and that if it wasn't for that weapon then monk would be total garbage which is true but it proves that flying dragon is good and not that the monk in itself is a crappy class.
Edit: And @Yuhanz no wtf is this bullshit sentries don't fire all 3 spenders together every time...
M6 IS OP, it's not relative to other classes, it is relative to other DH options, therefor, the demon hunter needs some skill buffs. If we buffed the base damage on the skills, the M6 would scale with that, and be OP relative to ALL classes. That's the problem with M6. Has NOTHING to do with Greater Rift design and everything to do with Demon Hunter design, solely.
"x 5, since you have five sentries, and that's 5,500% weapon damage x 20% x 30% = 8,580% weapon damage PER VOLLEY and this is just using ONE spender, the turrets use all 3 and they don't alternate, they fire all three every volley."
@Laokin you can confirm this?
Yep. Thing is though, that's not single target damage. It's actual effective damage. When you get down to a single target, Frost Arrow isn't hitting 11 times, it's hitting once... so to a single target we're in the realm of 9,000-16,000% weapon damage per volley, but when running Grifts, it's about how fast you kill everything preceding the Rift Gaurdian.
There is a reason when you look at the demon hunter ladder, that the lowest on the board is Grift 37 at rank 1,000. Crusader at rank 1,000 is at 31. Even though the best geared Crusaders can do 40/41 the average crusader is WELL below the average DH, that's because the 6 piece IS that strong.
They confirmed it in the last QA, although blizzard devs were being super modest about "potentials." They said "We can buff skills, but no matter how much we buff skills [like frozen orb] it's never competing with the 2500-6000% damage bonuses of the set items. So going forward we're going to create new sets that can compete, rather than buffing skill damage, next DH set will be based on multishot."
DH's is well above and beyond that range, that's the problem. Get rid of the rucksack, delete the item out right and it becomes pretty sensible, although it's still highlighting the fact that the DH hits like a wuss.
Then they confirmed that all the sets with 4 pc bonuses that actually have 6 pieces are going to get a 6 pc bonus. Doing this breaks the useability of the 4 pc sets that only have 4 pieces, like Shadows Grasp and Raekor.
What they need to realize is, the 6 piece sets with 4 piece max bonuses and the 4 piece sets should be designed together in tandum, rather than adding a 6 piece OP bonus to Immortal Kings/Nats/Inna's/Zuni's/Rasha's they should be looking at buffing the off sets and the 4 piece bonuses on vanilla 6 piece sets, so using both of those = a 6 piece set like Mara's.
Invoker should be reworked to be the rolands support pieces, the rolands set bonuses should be granted at 4 pieces. 4 piece bonus should look like this:
"Sweep Attack does 100% more damage
Shield Bash does 100% more damage
Each hit with shield bash or Sweep attack adds 20% damage for 3 seconds, stacks up to 5 times"
And the invoker set needs to enhance that to a level that can compete with 100% perma Akarat's Champion 6 pc AK's.
Otherwise all those off sets which are rather cool are just going to get phased out and never used -- this is a design flaw.
If they make a multishot set like they plan on, it'll have to exceed M6, but that'll be down right impossible to do, because if you're NOT using M6, you need toughness that you can't get. This is the major problem with Rolands, outside of the other problem that Rolands just cannot, absolutely cannot, out DPS AK's with 100% up time on Champion.
Keep in mind too, that Roland's is NEW, it was intended to compete with AK's, but it just can't, because they fail to see the damage + toughness explosion you get from 100% uptime in Champion, that in order to compete, they'd have to bump rolands down to 4 pc, redesign invoker to give you crazy toughness, and add 10% damage to each of those sets. That's the only way it could compete.
Adding a "Support piece" isn't going to "fix" the damage/toughness explosion of AK's. This is the same exact scenario as M6. You don't need 22 million toughness on a demon hunter who can blast at 25,000% weapon damage without even being in the room. How can any set compete with this without being absolutely ridiculous?
The end result is, the game becomes easy sauce; because the sets give so much raw power, that it's not about "Which Item do I use, what build, what items do I need to enhance this build, and so on" it becomes, do I want to be a Zoohunter? Okay, M6. Do I want to use Multishot? Okay multishot set.
It makes the item game even MORE stagnate than it was before. Because you have to wear 6 pieces to get these bonuses, even an RoRG doesn't help much, because it only allows you to sub out ONE piece of the set.
RoRG was cool and awesome because people were wearing 3/4 sets at a time, but when you make the sets all 6 piece, and make the 6 pc bonus a MUST HAVE, you take away the ability to use multiple sets at once, essentially destroying the use of the RoRG at the same time.
Uh, yes they do shoot all 3 at once. if they didn't, equipping multishot would LOWER your DPS.
Watch them, everysingle shot is a Multishot/FrostArrow/Cluster Arrow. You may have difficulty seeing the individual skills because cluster arrows graphic is modest, but if you look at any target, you'll see they are ALWAYS in a "white" cloud, that's caused by the graphic of frost arrow.
They always shoot all 3, always, and if you only have 2 spenders on, it will always shoot both AND a regular pea shooter turret arrow. They DO NOT alternate. If they alternated, you'd be better off with ONE spender, the HIGHEST one.
It is OP because DH is such bad class that he needs 3 of his skills fired for free by 1-5 static turrets. If you still can't see how badly designed this is I just feel sorry for you. Don't understand me wrong I like the idea of sentries using skills but how it works right now is just terrible and is just the result of blizzard poor balancing job like always. something like this would be fixed in torchlight 2 in under a month by the community if it had to come this far. If they can't at least buff the numbers on all the bad skills in 2 month than I believe the skill fixing was done by a lonely intern in his break time.
If you still didn't realize that Blizzard's approach to balance in d3 is not simply increasing low numbers then it is i who feel sorry for you. Your argument is invalid... I can claim the same basically about every class if we look specifically at high GR gameplay. DH is not underpowered because it has m6... it's overpowered because it has m6... It's like saying that monk is performing crap because it has flying dragon and that if it wasn't for that weapon then monk would be total garbage which is true but it proves that flying dragon is good and not that the monk in itself is a crappy class.
Edit: And @Yuhanz no wtf is this bullshit sentries don't fire all 3 spenders together every time...
Quite the contrary. Flying dragon IS good, but not all monks HAVE to use a Flying dragon. Where ALL DH HAVE to use M6 or they can't Grift.
Do you see the difference? It's the same as Crusader, every crusader HAS to use AK's or they can't Grift.
What makes Saders not as bad though is, they have MULTIPLE builds that are top Grift. They can build Firelight/Phalanx/Shotgun/Captain America, all four VERY different builds. This is possible because the Crusader weapons/Shield combos allow for synergy with AK's. The fact that they MUST wear AK's is STILL a problem.
But jump over to barbs, who are doing Grift 40 now, and look -- you have Jumpy Barbs, you have Raekor Barbs, you have Immortal Kings + Raekor barbs, all barb sets are usable at higher Grift levels. Demonhunter can't use Nats, can't use Shadows and can ONLY use M6. Why? Because M6 is OP, and the DH without M6 is UP. It's by far the WORST class in terms of balance right now. I'm sorry if you think everyone running around with the same 5 skills and not even shooting a bow is a "Variable, diverse, and fun" way to play the game.
I want to use Strafe, but I can't -- because STRAFE SUCKS. I want to use FAN OF KNIVES, but I can't, because FAN OF KNIVES SUCKS. A barb can use Leap/Earthquake/Avalanche/WW/WotB/Bash/Frenzy, etc -- why? Because NONE OF THEM SUCK.
You see yet? There most definitely IS a problem with M6, the problem really stems from the fact that WITHOUT M6 the DH sucks.
Not only do DH HAVE to use M6, but they also HAVE to use Bombadiers Rucksack, they also HAVE to use Etrayu or Unbound Bolt. Neither one of these changes the build or the playstyle, they play exactly the same, just with more damage. They also HAVE to use a RoRG to wear, you guessed it, ANOTHER MUST HAVE PIECE, Tasker and Theo. They also have to have 3 jewelry sockets and all HAVE to use the same 3 gems, Bane of the Trapped, Bane of the Powerful, and Enforcer.
They all also HAVE to use Slavebonds for the 5 affixs, so they can have extra toughness to survive a 1 shot, and they also HAVE to have a great Countess Julias Cameo with a socket. They also NEED to use the Unity with the follower can't die item, or an SoJ with a party.
They also HAVE to use a Witching hour. So you see, this leaves them ZERO slots to change ANYTHING. No other class has this problem.
Every demon hunter looks exactly like this, or are on their way to looking exactly like this;
Maras Helm
Maras Shoulders
Maras Chest
Maras Pants
Maras Boots
Countess Julia's
RoRG
SoJ/Unity [depends on solo or group] Tasker and Theo
Slave Bonds
Witching Hour
Bombadiers Rucksack
Etrayu/Unbound Bolt
There is ZERO room to deviate and be "different." This is hands down, the best build. Change the gloves cut your damage tremendously. Take off the RoRG, cut damage tremendously. Take off Rucksack, cut damage tremendously. Take off Unity, cut solo survivability tremendously. Take off Slave Bonds, lose the all resist, cuts back on your much needed toughness tremendously. Take off Julias and you're one shot by jails because you can't have 20m toughness. Where is there ANY options? There aren't any, because M6 is OP, and the DH without M6 is garbage. There is no inbetween.
It's not about DH outperforming other classes, it's about demon hunters not having any other options. DH isn't out far and a head of other classes, they are all closing the gap. Best DH is at 42. Best Crusader 41. Best Wizard 41, Best Witch Doctor 40, Best barb 40. Best Monk 38.
So they are all close, but when you look at how they get there, DH's all do it the same, while everyone else has options. Wizards also don't really have "Options" because they just wear both Rashas and Firebirds.... but see they can do that because Firebirds has 7 pieces.
WD is kind of hurt too, but this is already being worked on, Wall of Zombies is being redesigned completely, and then the Helltooth set is getting changed with it.
Why is it that everyone knows all the other classes need help, but nobody wants to admit the DH is in a bad place? Is it because you all realized how easy and powerful playing a DH is, so you rolled the OP class? I can smell it in your posts.
Keep in mind too, that Roland's is NEW, it was intended to compete with AK's, but it just can't, because they fail to see the damage + toughness explosion you get from 100% uptime in Champion, that in order to compete, they'd have to bump rolands down to 4 pc, redesign invoker to give you crazy toughness, and add 10% damage to each of those sets. That's the only way it could compete.
Roland's total DPS bonus is so much better than Akkan's it's not evena contest. The reaosn Roland's is bad is because it requires using a build that is melee, not because the DPS bonus isn't competitive.
Roland's provides quadruple DPS with Shield Bash or Sweep. Roland's would be plenty competitive if melee wasn't suicide after rift level 31.
Keep in mind too, that Roland's is NEW, it was intended to compete with AK's, but it just can't, because they fail to see the damage + toughness explosion you get from 100% uptime in Champion, that in order to compete, they'd have to bump rolands down to 4 pc, redesign invoker to give you crazy toughness, and add 10% damage to each of those sets. That's the only way it could compete.
Roland's total DPS bonus is so much better than Akkan's it's not evena contest. The reaosn Roland's is bad is because it requires using a build that is melee, not because the DPS bonus isn't competitive.
Roland's provides quadruple DPS with Shield Bash or Sweep. Roland's would be plenty competitive if melee wasn't suicide after rift level 31.
Since when is DOUBLING your attack speed QUADRUPLING your damage?
The 100% on shield bash does not DOUBLE shield bash, it's additive. Shield bash does 700% +300% your block chance. Rolands makes it do 800% + 300% your block chance, and doubles your attack speed, so it gives you double damage +100 weapon damage. Also the 100% damage bonus on sweep attack does not enhance the damage of shield bash, so it's not 200% multiplicative damage + Double attack speed. It's 100% additive damage + double attack speed, which pretty much enhances your damage by ONE THIRD, instead of 400% which is quadruple.
1/3rd is 33%, Akarat's Champion gives you 20%, having Perma Champion gives you 20% damage all the time [13% less than rolands] but gives you UNLIMITED resource, and frees up a skill slot on your bar since you don't need a generator. Running around with a 3900 dps Fate of the Fell, with a 20% permanent damage bonus and a 20% virtually permanent damage bonus from shield glare [since you have 55.8% CDR it's up all the time + a hellfire with towering shield, it's 100% uptime] FAR EXCEEDS that 13% extra damage while you have resource. Lets not forget that running around in Ak's lets you have perma prophet, which gives you around 30 million toughness ALL THE TIME AND also brings you back from the dead once every 30 seconds.
Akhans = 20+20=40 100% up time, Rolands = 33+20=53 25% uptime. The 40 is ALL THE TIME, the 53 is just when you have an enemy under shield glare and have all 5 stacks on the bash.
Roland's can't even come close to the DPS output, the only time it did, was when the Attack Speed was bugged on Heart Slaughter in PTR, which allowed rolands to ramp up to 9 attacks per second with that slow ass 2 hander. They fixed that before they launched the game. When you look on the Grift leaderboards and see the top 3 saders wearing Roland's, they are just HIDING their gear, they aren't using Roland's. Nobody is, because it sucks.
Rolands would be amazing with IAS everywhere, if you had a 3.0 attackspeed before Roland's doubled it, you'd be sitting pretty, the problem is, you can't have good damage with attack speed on gear, and all the fast one handers have broken low damage.
Now, If you're attacks per second were 6.0, i'd concede you'd need less damage to advance, because you're hitting way more often, so on hit procs would be better, but in order to have any kind of toughness with rolands, you need to have around 50k LoH, and you can't use Laws of Valor - Invincible to do it, since you need to use Unstoppable force so you don't run out of wrath.
So the problem with rolands is, you need to have IAS/Crit Chance/Crit Damage/Mainstat/Cooldown Reduction/50k LoH and you still need to somehow cram in toughness stats and 3 sockets on your jewelry. It requires WAY too many stats to even match AK's damage from Akhan's set + FoTF, and when I say way too many, what I mean to say is -- It's UNOBTAINABLE. There is currently 0 way to make it work.
I'm currently sitting on 2 entire sets of Rolands with a pretty beast heart slaughter and a perfect Piru Mirella and it can't even come close to matching the damage of me running around in Champion with 6 seconds down time using LIGHTNING Fist of the Heavens - Fissure. Not even CLOSE, and the damage I do with this funky off build is enough to steam roll T6 like it's normal mode, and this is just a FRACTION of the damage that I could do if I min/maxed towards Holy Shotgun. [Which I'm doing, I have a 3900 DPS FotF/Hellskull, ready to go -- I just need to hit the break point on CDR so I don't run out of wrath.]
Roland's DPS output can't even come within 30% of the damage output, let alone "Quadruple." You don't understand the game,and have NO idea what you're talking about. Which is EXACTLY the case with everyone saying M6 is "Fine."
When it comes to high GR gameplay all classes are restricted in many aspects (skills, passives, gear). The DH happens to be maybe the one who's the most restricted. The other classes also have to have certain gear pieces in order to pull off high GR and you know it. I agree that the DH is in a problematic state but in relation to what's going on right now, the DH is doing pretty good. Even if you can only use one build, so what? There were many other times where classes were limited in a similar way. Maybe not too drastically but it just shows that the main issue here is GR design and other classes being underpowered in certain aspects.
For an example, i don't think that the barb needs to be buffed right now but i do think that certain elite affixes like electrified should be nerfed. This way other amulets might become viable in high GR gameplay. I'd like to believe that there's a similar "fix" for at least some of the dh problems...
Uh, yes they do shoot all 3 at once. if they didn't, equipping multishot would LOWER your DPS.
Watch them, everysingle shot is a Multishot/FrostArrow/Cluster Arrow. You may have difficulty seeing the individual skills because cluster arrows graphic is modest, but if you look at any target, you'll see they are ALWAYS in a "white" cloud, that's caused by the graphic of frost arrow.
They always shoot all 3, always, and if you only have 2 spenders on, it will always shoot both AND a regular pea shooter turret arrow. They DO NOT alternate. If they alternated, you'd be better off with ONE spender, the HIGHEST one.
Nope, sentrys have a rotation based on aps breakpoints.
Uh, yes they do shoot all 3 at once. if they didn't, equipping multishot would LOWER your DPS.
Watch them, everysingle shot is a Multishot/FrostArrow/Cluster Arrow. You may have difficulty seeing the individual skills because cluster arrows graphic is modest, but if you look at any target, you'll see they are ALWAYS in a "white" cloud, that's caused by the graphic of frost arrow.
They always shoot all 3, always, and if you only have 2 spenders on, it will always shoot both AND a regular pea shooter turret arrow. They DO NOT alternate. If they alternated, you'd be better off with ONE spender, the HIGHEST one.
Nope, sentrys have a rotation based on aps breakpoints.
except that post is 100% wrong. It says at the top "Sentry attacks at fixed attack speed when using 3 hatred spenders"
But it doesn't. Take off your tasker and theos, put down ONE sentry and watch it shoot. Put on Taskers and watch it speed up.
The entire post is wrong because it's based on a fallacy. They may have TINY internal CD's, but they are so small that they might as well be shooting "All at once" they are all shooting before 1 attack per second is finished, giving you the same DPS output as if they shot all at the same EXACT time.
Go ahead, load in and test it, come back and apologize.
Those same people are saying Buriza is the best weapon, yet nobody who did 42 used a buriza to do it. Wonder why? Because his math is wrong.
You might wanna stop just "Believing" what other people post, test/try stuff out, look with your own eyes and confirm what's true and what's not. The cycle rate on the skills is at the alleged "break point" just by using a bow instead of a crossbow -- at this "rate" they are all shooting in under 1 attack per second, giving you the total DPS in 1 second, not changing your Damage Per Second ANY.
Also, do you know what a break point is? Because those guys don't. A break point is the bare minimum of X stat before Y becomes possible. I.E. Akarat's Champion has a Breakpoint on CDR, which is roughly 55.8%, once you reach that much CDR, you can cast it before it expires.
If you read that thread to completion, they recommend you NOT use 3 spenders, but that's clearly proven wrong by the leaderboard as well as by independent testing. Their whole hypothesis is flawed.
But you know, you can say I don't know how it works all you want -- and believe someone else because he posted "Pretty graphics" even though the leaderboard clearly shows he's incorrect, which makes him wrong, and NOT know how the class actually operates.
Sentries also ONLY shoot the first 3 spenders on your bar. Once you have 3 spenders on your bar, they no longer shoot "Bolts." This guys graph clearly shows the rotation on the turrets shooting 6 spenders, which isn't even possible. He shows the rotation as C M B B M B B M C B M B B M B B /repeat, but in the LIVE game, it's CMF/CMF/CMF/CMF it never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, shoots bolts, and it no longer shoot more than the first 3 you put on your bar, so if you put a 4th spender it won't ever fire the one selected 4th. It also DOESN'T shoot ALL spenders, just the ones from "Secondary" and Multishot/Cluster Arrow from Archery. You can try to put on Fan of Knives - Knives Expert which is a spender that cost 30 Hatred and it won't ever fire, even if it's the only spender on your bar.
My guess, is this is homework from the PTR build and no longer applies.
I am indeed correct, that post on "APS Breakpoints" is from March, 1st PTR build of 2.1.0. As such, it's NO LONGER relevant as they changed how the bonus works.
So. WOMP WOMP WOMP, you lose. If you have eyes you could see that you were wrong, just load up your DH and drop a single turret and watch it.
And still regardless, that's X 5 the output of a DH without M6 or 5 turrets, with no resource limit. It's OP.
Also, with around 44% CDR, you can drop a turret every 1.8 seconds or so. With 55% CDR you'd be down to just a tad over one second.
So every second you literally add 100% of your total damage to your total damage output up to 5 "stacks" as it were.
So running M6 takes a DH's total output and multiplies it by FIVE. That's Pentadamage, fuck quad damage, or double damage, it's fucking PENTADAMAGE. And to top it off, as if pentadamage wasn't enough, they have NO RESOURCES so they can face blast non-stop 100% of the time, which is going to increase the damage output by MORE than FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT OF YOUR TOTAL DAMAGE OUTPUT.
To put that in perspective, if you could do 100 million damage per second for 5 seconds, you'd do 500 million damage and then be on an empty tank. If you could do 100 million damage per second, with M6 and a Rucksack, you're doing 2.5 BILLION damage per second for UNLIMITED SECONDS.
How is that not OP? And it's actually higher than that, because that's NOT accounting for shooting THREE spenders, that's accounting for ONE. So reality is you'd be doing around 9-10 BILLION damage per second for unlimited seconds with M6, vs a Demon Hunter that could do 500 Million in 5 seconds and be empty and out of resource. The percent the M6 makes you stronger is RETARDED.
It's pretty much common sense that if you have 5 turrets that can shoot the three most powerful skills you have unlimited and at full damage, that you'd never be able to compete without it. EVER. Since without it, you can only shoot ONE SKILL at a time and on a limited reserve before you ran out of juice.
So again, I reiterate, anybody who think M6 DOESN'T need a nerf and that the DH base DOESN'T need a BUFF, is a NOOB. Flat out. You suck at this game and just copypasta best builds off the internet. You're the SAME crowd that always gravitates to the OP builds and then cries "Blizzard should make EVERYONE OP and LEAVE ME ALONE."
Straight NOOB mentality.
You're also the same crowd that cries that they made the game easier, yet are happily steamrolling extremely hard content with bugged/poorly designed builds that are OP. T6 isn't any easier now than it used to be, better gear has been gotten/created, and some of that better gear is OP like Mara 6, which is why the game feels "Easy" now.
1.46, 1.74, 2.16, 2.84 and 4.16. Breakpoints are well known. Cluster and multi shot have an icd.
Check out the 4ppl leader board, the dh's are using a ballista.
That was an old link, i posted it to show you the aps breakpoints. In 2.1 with 3 spenders replace the bolt with your freeze arrow or chaka. In the past all you gained were additional bolts that didnt do any damage, it has changed.
Keep in mind too, that Roland's is NEW, it was intended to compete with AK's, but it just can't, because they fail to see the damage + toughness explosion you get from 100% uptime in Champion, that in order to compete, they'd have to bump rolands down to 4 pc, redesign invoker to give you crazy toughness, and add 10% damage to each of those sets. That's the only way it could compete.
Roland's total DPS bonus is so much better than Akkan's it's not evena contest. The reaosn Roland's is bad is because it requires using a build that is melee, not because the DPS bonus isn't competitive.
Roland's provides quadruple DPS with Shield Bash or Sweep. Roland's would be plenty competitive if melee wasn't suicide after rift level 31.
Since when is DOUBLING your attack speed QUADRUPLING your damage?
The 100% on shield bash does not DOUBLE shield bash, it's additive. Shield bash does 700% +300% your block chance. Rolands makes it do 800% + 300% your block chance, and doubles your attack speed, so it gives you double damage +100 weapon damage. Also the 100% damage bonus on sweep attack does not enhance the damage of shield bash, so it's not 200% multiplicative damage + Double attack speed. It's 100% additive damage + double attack speed, which pretty much enhances your damage by ONE THIRD, instead of 400% which is quadruple.
1/3rd is 33%, Akarat's Champion gives you 20%, having Perma Champion gives you 20% damage all the time [13% less than rolands] but gives you UNLIMITED resource, and frees up a skill slot on your bar since you don't need a generator. Running around with a 3900 dps Fate of the Fell, with a 20% permanent damage bonus and a 20% virtually permanent damage bonus from shield glare [since you have 55.8% CDR it's up all the time + a hellfire with towering shield, it's 100% uptime] FAR EXCEEDS that 13% extra damage while you have resource. Lets not forget that running around in Ak's lets you have perma prophet, which gives you around 30 million toughness ALL THE TIME AND also brings you back from the dead once every 30 seconds.
Akhans = 20+20=40 100% up time, Rolands = 33+20=53 25% uptime. The 40 is ALL THE TIME, the 53 is just when you have an enemy under shield glare and have all 5 stacks on the bash.
Roland's can't even come close to the DPS output, the only time it did, was when the Attack Speed was bugged on Heart Slaughter in PTR, which allowed rolands to ramp up to 9 attacks per second with that slow ass 2 hander. They fixed that before they launched the game. When you look on the Grift leaderboards and see the top 3 saders wearing Roland's, they are just HIDING their gear, they aren't using Roland's. Nobody is, because it sucks.
Rolands would be amazing with IAS everywhere, if you had a 3.0 attackspeed before Roland's doubled it, you'd be sitting pretty, the problem is, you can't have good damage with attack speed on gear, and all the fast one handers have broken low damage.
Now, If you're attacks per second were 6.0, i'd concede you'd need less damage to advance, because you're hitting way more often, so on hit procs would be better, but in order to have any kind of toughness with rolands, you need to have around 50k LoH, and you can't use Laws of Valor - Invincible to do it, since you need to use Unstoppable force so you don't run out of wrath.
So the problem with rolands is, you need to have IAS/Crit Chance/Crit Damage/Mainstat/Cooldown Reduction/50k LoH and you still need to somehow cram in toughness stats and 3 sockets on your jewelry. It requires WAY too many stats to even match AK's damage from Akhan's set + FoTF, and when I say way too many, what I mean to say is -- It's UNOBTAINABLE. There is currently 0 way to make it work.
I'm currently sitting on 2 entire sets of Rolands with a pretty beast heart slaughter and a perfect Piru Mirella and it can't even come close to matching the damage of me running around in Champion with 6 seconds down time using LIGHTNING Fist of the Heavens - Fissure. Not even CLOSE, and the damage I do with this funky off build is enough to steam roll T6 like it's normal mode, and this is just a FRACTION of the damage that I could do if I min/maxed towards Holy Shotgun. [Which I'm doing, I have a 3900 DPS FotF/Hellskull, ready to go -- I just need to hit the break point on CDR so I don't run out of wrath.]
Roland's DPS output can't even come within 30% of the damage output, let alone "Quadruple." You don't understand the game,and have NO idea what you're talking about. Which is EXACTLY the case with everyone saying M6 is "Fine."
You're all NOOBS.
You obviously don't know how skill damage bonuses work. +100% skill damage is a x2 multiplier.
Keep in mind too, that Roland's is NEW, it was intended to compete with AK's, but it just can't, because they fail to see the damage + toughness explosion you get from 100% uptime in Champion, that in order to compete, they'd have to bump rolands down to 4 pc, redesign invoker to give you crazy toughness, and add 10% damage to each of those sets. That's the only way it could compete.
Roland's total DPS bonus is so much better than Akkan's it's not evena contest. The reaosn Roland's is bad is because it requires using a build that is melee, not because the DPS bonus isn't competitive.
Roland's provides quadruple DPS with Shield Bash or Sweep. Roland's would be plenty competitive if melee wasn't suicide after rift level 31.
Since when is DOUBLING your attack speed QUADRUPLING your damage?
The 100% on shield bash does not DOUBLE shield bash, it's additive. Shield bash does 700% +300% your block chance. Rolands makes it do 800% + 300% your block chance, and doubles your attack speed, so it gives you double damage +100 weapon damage. Also the 100% damage bonus on sweep attack does not enhance the damage of shield bash, so it's not 200% multiplicative damage + Double attack speed. It's 100% additive damage + double attack speed, which pretty much enhances your damage by ONE THIRD, instead of 400% which is quadruple.
1/3rd is 33%, Akarat's Champion gives you 20%, having Perma Champion gives you 20% damage all the time [13% less than rolands] but gives you UNLIMITED resource, and frees up a skill slot on your bar since you don't need a generator. Running around with a 3900 dps Fate of the Fell, with a 20% permanent damage bonus and a 20% virtually permanent damage bonus from shield glare [since you have 55.8% CDR it's up all the time + a hellfire with towering shield, it's 100% uptime] FAR EXCEEDS that 13% extra damage while you have resource. Lets not forget that running around in Ak's lets you have perma prophet, which gives you around 30 million toughness ALL THE TIME AND also brings you back from the dead once every 30 seconds.
Akhans = 20+20=40 100% up time, Rolands = 33+20=53 25% uptime. The 40 is ALL THE TIME, the 53 is just when you have an enemy under shield glare and have all 5 stacks on the bash.
Roland's can't even come close to the DPS output, the only time it did, was when the Attack Speed was bugged on Heart Slaughter in PTR, which allowed rolands to ramp up to 9 attacks per second with that slow ass 2 hander. They fixed that before they launched the game. When you look on the Grift leaderboards and see the top 3 saders wearing Roland's, they are just HIDING their gear, they aren't using Roland's. Nobody is, because it sucks.
Rolands would be amazing with IAS everywhere, if you had a 3.0 attackspeed before Roland's doubled it, you'd be sitting pretty, the problem is, you can't have good damage with attack speed on gear, and all the fast one handers have broken low damage.
Now, If you're attacks per second were 6.0, i'd concede you'd need less damage to advance, because you're hitting way more often, so on hit procs would be better, but in order to have any kind of toughness with rolands, you need to have around 50k LoH, and you can't use Laws of Valor - Invincible to do it, since you need to use Unstoppable force so you don't run out of wrath.
So the problem with rolands is, you need to have IAS/Crit Chance/Crit Damage/Mainstat/Cooldown Reduction/50k LoH and you still need to somehow cram in toughness stats and 3 sockets on your jewelry. It requires WAY too many stats to even match AK's damage from Akhan's set + FoTF, and when I say way too many, what I mean to say is -- It's UNOBTAINABLE. There is currently 0 way to make it work.
I'm currently sitting on 2 entire sets of Rolands with a pretty beast heart slaughter and a perfect Piru Mirella and it can't even come close to matching the damage of me running around in Champion with 6 seconds down time using LIGHTNING Fist of the Heavens - Fissure. Not even CLOSE, and the damage I do with this funky off build is enough to steam roll T6 like it's normal mode, and this is just a FRACTION of the damage that I could do if I min/maxed towards Holy Shotgun. [Which I'm doing, I have a 3900 DPS FotF/Hellskull, ready to go -- I just need to hit the break point on CDR so I don't run out of wrath.]
Roland's DPS output can't even come within 30% of the damage output, let alone "Quadruple." You don't understand the game,and have NO idea what you're talking about. Which is EXACTLY the case with everyone saying M6 is "Fine."
You're all NOOBS.
You obviously don't know how skill damage bonuses work. +100% skill damage is a x2 multiplier.
Double damage.
Double attack speed.
4x total DPS.
Call me when you try it and find out that you're wrong.
When you get 15% to "x" skill, you aren't taking the skills damage and multiplying it by that percentage, you are enhancing the skills percentage by THAT percent.
So again, Shield bash does 700%, adding 100 more makes it 800%, not 1400%. I have it, it SUCKS. It doesn't even come close to the Damage output of Infinite Champion + Shotgun with Infinite resource. It's.not.even.close. My crits with Fist of the Heavens are 15 million, switching to a better damage 2 hander over my ONE HAND DARKLIGHT AND stacking physical, my crits on a skill with a HIGHER base damage were LOWER because AC wasn't on.
Shield Bash was critting for 8 million with a 39% physical damage heart slaugher with 3508 dps, with 20% physical bracers, critting for LESS than 2.1k DPS darklight and 20% lightning damage, because of Champion.
And double a SHIT attack speed is STILL a shit attack speed.
GG, noob.
Now show me a Rolands build that's using a 3993 DPS Fate of the Fell. You can't compete, I'm getting more DPS out of my weapon then you are gaining with 100% attack speed.
I have the entire set twice over, nearly 3 times over and some pieces 5 times over. I have Ak's too. I compared them.
I have a heartslaughter with 3500 damage and 29% physical. Rolands sucks.
Loakin is completely wrong and holse is closer. +100% skill damage means that the skill will do double dmg. Skill damage is additive with itself, but multiplicative with ele dmg; example: 100 skill dmg and 50% ele dmg means you do triple dmg instead of two and a half times as much
As for m6, the rumors are just that: rumors. I personally hope they don't ever add more 6pc sets to the game as I fucking hate how restrictive they are
Now show me a Rolands build that's using a 3993 DPS Fate of the Fell. You can't compete, I'm getting more DPS out of my weapon then you are gaining with 100% attack speed.
I have the entire set twice over, nearly 3 times over and some pieces 5 times over. I have Ak's too. I compared them.
I have a heartslaughter with 3500 damage and 29% physical. Rolands sucks.
Not that I know anything about Crusader builds right now but I happened to be looking at the leaderboards last night and a Rolands Fleece Crusader was #1. Not sure what that has to do with Demon Hunters though.
On topic, M6 is kind of retarded, but then each class always seems to have one broken build that allows them to compete and that they're worthless without. Would it really be better if they halved all the ridiculous 6pc/broken builds right now so that more builds were viable but everyone took a huge step back in doable content?
I do like that I can actually aim to get the build now; it's not just a "play til you win the lottery" like getting a Wand of Woh or do nothing. There need to be more good sets, but I like the idea of sets on the whole.
Call me when you try it and find out that you're wrong.
When you get 15% to "x" skill, you aren't taking the skills damage and multiplying it by that percentage, you are enhancing the skills percentage by THAT percent.
So again, Shield bash does 700%, adding 100 more makes it 800%, not 1400%. I have it, it SUCKS. It doesn't even come close to the Damage output of Infinite Champion + Shotgun with Infinite resource. It's.not.even.close. My crits with Fist of the Heavens are 15 million, switching to a better damage 2 hander over my ONE HAND DARKLIGHT AND stacking physical, my crits on a skill with a HIGHER base damage were LOWER because AC wasn't on.
Shield Bash was critting for 8 million with a 39% physical damage heart slaugher with 3508 dps, with 20% physical bracers, critting for LESS than 2.1k DPS darklight and 20% lightning damage, because of Champion.
And double a SHIT attack speed is STILL a shit attack speed.
GG, noob.
Now show me a Rolands build that's using a 3993 DPS Fate of the Fell. You can't compete, I'm getting more DPS out of my weapon then you are gaining with 100% attack speed.
I have the entire set twice over, nearly 3 times over and some pieces 5 times over. I have Ak's too. I compared them.
I have a heartslaughter with 3500 damage and 29% physical. Rolands sucks.
First off. You're absolutely wrong (as others have pointed out)about the way skill damage and elemental damage scales.
Second off: Akkan absolutely cannot compete with Roland's for increaisng DPS. It doesn'e even come close. Roland's ramps to essentially quadruple DPS with shield bash, Akkan's best case scenario is roughly +70% and it requires giving up the actual benefit of akkan (using Prophet).
You're not comparing Akkan to Roland. You're comparing an abolutely mediocre Heartslaughter Shieldbasher to a near perfect Fate of The Fell Shotgunner. That's no contest, the 2700% weapon damage ranged AoE shotgun blast is going to absolutely shit on the maximal 2000% weapon damage melee cone.
Roland's quadruples effective weapon DPS with Shield bash. Fate of the Fell triples effective weapon damage with Heaven's Fury. It happens that Fury has better AoE and better base damage than just about every Shieldbash rune, and that's why the one does more damage than the other. Of course nothing says you can;t use FotF with Shield Bash as the ray of doom and get the best of both. But you know.
You're not actually examining what you're doing. You're bashing on something that you barely understand the mechanics of. If Shieldbash had aweapon on par with FotF for slot (and no, heartslaughter isn't even close) it would make holy shotgun look like a joke. The sad truth is that Akkan has one of the (if not the) weakest DPS bonuses of any 6p set. It just happens that Crusader weapons and shields kick ass.
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Sure M6 is relatively OP but not as much as people make it sound. the bigger problem here is the GR design... I mean, what did people expect when they knew that GR mob damage will scale this way? It was obvious that kiting will be the way to go at least untill people figure some stuff out.
I think the real outcry here should be to fix the other classes and not nerf the DH because even though most of you don't think so, but playing m6 DH on high GR is quite challenging and is not as easy as it might look on some of the YT videos where people clear a lvl 40 GR with the easiest mob / affix combo ever... You need to avoid like 100% of the damage so character placement and movement, sentries placement and skill timing all come into play. If you give 100 people end game M6 gear, 90% of them won't get past GR 35 in my opinion.
Still, i can understand a nerf on sentries in terms of how far do you have to be for them to still shoot or directly on their range or whatever but i really don't think that will solve anything... Even if they made sentries shoot only if you are 20 yards away from them, you can just reroll the GR untill you get an indoor level where you can place sentries and hide behind corners.
TLDR: M6 not as op as people think. Other builds have higher burst damage. They need to buff other classes. The nerf to sentries should probably only involve their range or the distance you have to be from them so they can shoot and even then that won't really solve anything therefore buffing the other classes is the optimal option.
@Laokin you can confirm this?
Edit: And @Yuhanz no wtf is this bullshit sentries don't fire all 3 spenders together every time...
M6 IS OP, it's not relative to other classes, it is relative to other DH options, therefor, the demon hunter needs some skill buffs. If we buffed the base damage on the skills, the M6 would scale with that, and be OP relative to ALL classes. That's the problem with M6. Has NOTHING to do with Greater Rift design and everything to do with Demon Hunter design, solely.
There is a reason when you look at the demon hunter ladder, that the lowest on the board is Grift 37 at rank 1,000. Crusader at rank 1,000 is at 31. Even though the best geared Crusaders can do 40/41 the average crusader is WELL below the average DH, that's because the 6 piece IS that strong.
They confirmed it in the last QA, although blizzard devs were being super modest about "potentials." They said "We can buff skills, but no matter how much we buff skills [like frozen orb] it's never competing with the 2500-6000% damage bonuses of the set items. So going forward we're going to create new sets that can compete, rather than buffing skill damage, next DH set will be based on multishot."
DH's is well above and beyond that range, that's the problem. Get rid of the rucksack, delete the item out right and it becomes pretty sensible, although it's still highlighting the fact that the DH hits like a wuss.
Then they confirmed that all the sets with 4 pc bonuses that actually have 6 pieces are going to get a 6 pc bonus. Doing this breaks the useability of the 4 pc sets that only have 4 pieces, like Shadows Grasp and Raekor.
What they need to realize is, the 6 piece sets with 4 piece max bonuses and the 4 piece sets should be designed together in tandum, rather than adding a 6 piece OP bonus to Immortal Kings/Nats/Inna's/Zuni's/Rasha's they should be looking at buffing the off sets and the 4 piece bonuses on vanilla 6 piece sets, so using both of those = a 6 piece set like Mara's.
Invoker should be reworked to be the rolands support pieces, the rolands set bonuses should be granted at 4 pieces. 4 piece bonus should look like this:
"Sweep Attack does 100% more damage
Shield Bash does 100% more damage
Each hit with shield bash or Sweep attack adds 20% damage for 3 seconds, stacks up to 5 times"
And the invoker set needs to enhance that to a level that can compete with 100% perma Akarat's Champion 6 pc AK's.
Otherwise all those off sets which are rather cool are just going to get phased out and never used -- this is a design flaw.
If they make a multishot set like they plan on, it'll have to exceed M6, but that'll be down right impossible to do, because if you're NOT using M6, you need toughness that you can't get. This is the major problem with Rolands, outside of the other problem that Rolands just cannot, absolutely cannot, out DPS AK's with 100% up time on Champion.
Keep in mind too, that Roland's is NEW, it was intended to compete with AK's, but it just can't, because they fail to see the damage + toughness explosion you get from 100% uptime in Champion, that in order to compete, they'd have to bump rolands down to 4 pc, redesign invoker to give you crazy toughness, and add 10% damage to each of those sets. That's the only way it could compete.
Adding a "Support piece" isn't going to "fix" the damage/toughness explosion of AK's. This is the same exact scenario as M6. You don't need 22 million toughness on a demon hunter who can blast at 25,000% weapon damage without even being in the room. How can any set compete with this without being absolutely ridiculous?
The end result is, the game becomes easy sauce; because the sets give so much raw power, that it's not about "Which Item do I use, what build, what items do I need to enhance this build, and so on" it becomes, do I want to be a Zoohunter? Okay, M6. Do I want to use Multishot? Okay multishot set.
It makes the item game even MORE stagnate than it was before. Because you have to wear 6 pieces to get these bonuses, even an RoRG doesn't help much, because it only allows you to sub out ONE piece of the set.
RoRG was cool and awesome because people were wearing 3/4 sets at a time, but when you make the sets all 6 piece, and make the 6 pc bonus a MUST HAVE, you take away the ability to use multiple sets at once, essentially destroying the use of the RoRG at the same time.
Watch them, everysingle shot is a Multishot/FrostArrow/Cluster Arrow. You may have difficulty seeing the individual skills because cluster arrows graphic is modest, but if you look at any target, you'll see they are ALWAYS in a "white" cloud, that's caused by the graphic of frost arrow.
They always shoot all 3, always, and if you only have 2 spenders on, it will always shoot both AND a regular pea shooter turret arrow. They DO NOT alternate. If they alternated, you'd be better off with ONE spender, the HIGHEST one.
Do you see the difference? It's the same as Crusader, every crusader HAS to use AK's or they can't Grift.
What makes Saders not as bad though is, they have MULTIPLE builds that are top Grift. They can build Firelight/Phalanx/Shotgun/Captain America, all four VERY different builds. This is possible because the Crusader weapons/Shield combos allow for synergy with AK's. The fact that they MUST wear AK's is STILL a problem.
But jump over to barbs, who are doing Grift 40 now, and look -- you have Jumpy Barbs, you have Raekor Barbs, you have Immortal Kings + Raekor barbs, all barb sets are usable at higher Grift levels. Demonhunter can't use Nats, can't use Shadows and can ONLY use M6. Why? Because M6 is OP, and the DH without M6 is UP. It's by far the WORST class in terms of balance right now. I'm sorry if you think everyone running around with the same 5 skills and not even shooting a bow is a "Variable, diverse, and fun" way to play the game.
I want to use Strafe, but I can't -- because STRAFE SUCKS. I want to use FAN OF KNIVES, but I can't, because FAN OF KNIVES SUCKS. A barb can use Leap/Earthquake/Avalanche/WW/WotB/Bash/Frenzy, etc -- why? Because NONE OF THEM SUCK.
You see yet? There most definitely IS a problem with M6, the problem really stems from the fact that WITHOUT M6 the DH sucks.
Not only do DH HAVE to use M6, but they also HAVE to use Bombadiers Rucksack, they also HAVE to use Etrayu or Unbound Bolt. Neither one of these changes the build or the playstyle, they play exactly the same, just with more damage. They also HAVE to use a RoRG to wear, you guessed it, ANOTHER MUST HAVE PIECE, Tasker and Theo. They also have to have 3 jewelry sockets and all HAVE to use the same 3 gems, Bane of the Trapped, Bane of the Powerful, and Enforcer.
They all also HAVE to use Slavebonds for the 5 affixs, so they can have extra toughness to survive a 1 shot, and they also HAVE to have a great Countess Julias Cameo with a socket. They also NEED to use the Unity with the follower can't die item, or an SoJ with a party.
They also HAVE to use a Witching hour. So you see, this leaves them ZERO slots to change ANYTHING. No other class has this problem.
Every demon hunter looks exactly like this, or are on their way to looking exactly like this;
Maras Helm
Maras Shoulders
Maras Chest
Maras Pants
Maras Boots
Countess Julia's
RoRG
SoJ/Unity [depends on solo or group] Tasker and Theo
Slave Bonds
Witching Hour
Bombadiers Rucksack
Etrayu/Unbound Bolt
There is ZERO room to deviate and be "different." This is hands down, the best build. Change the gloves cut your damage tremendously. Take off the RoRG, cut damage tremendously. Take off Rucksack, cut damage tremendously. Take off Unity, cut solo survivability tremendously. Take off Slave Bonds, lose the all resist, cuts back on your much needed toughness tremendously. Take off Julias and you're one shot by jails because you can't have 20m toughness. Where is there ANY options? There aren't any, because M6 is OP, and the DH without M6 is garbage. There is no inbetween.
It's not about DH outperforming other classes, it's about demon hunters not having any other options. DH isn't out far and a head of other classes, they are all closing the gap. Best DH is at 42. Best Crusader 41. Best Wizard 41, Best Witch Doctor 40, Best barb 40. Best Monk 38.
So they are all close, but when you look at how they get there, DH's all do it the same, while everyone else has options. Wizards also don't really have "Options" because they just wear both Rashas and Firebirds.... but see they can do that because Firebirds has 7 pieces.
WD is kind of hurt too, but this is already being worked on, Wall of Zombies is being redesigned completely, and then the Helltooth set is getting changed with it.
Why is it that everyone knows all the other classes need help, but nobody wants to admit the DH is in a bad place? Is it because you all realized how easy and powerful playing a DH is, so you rolled the OP class? I can smell it in your posts.
Roland's provides quadruple DPS with Shield Bash or Sweep. Roland's would be plenty competitive if melee wasn't suicide after rift level 31.
The 100% on shield bash does not DOUBLE shield bash, it's additive. Shield bash does 700% +300% your block chance. Rolands makes it do 800% + 300% your block chance, and doubles your attack speed, so it gives you double damage +100 weapon damage. Also the 100% damage bonus on sweep attack does not enhance the damage of shield bash, so it's not 200% multiplicative damage + Double attack speed. It's 100% additive damage + double attack speed, which pretty much enhances your damage by ONE THIRD, instead of 400% which is quadruple.
1/3rd is 33%, Akarat's Champion gives you 20%, having Perma Champion gives you 20% damage all the time [13% less than rolands] but gives you UNLIMITED resource, and frees up a skill slot on your bar since you don't need a generator. Running around with a 3900 dps Fate of the Fell, with a 20% permanent damage bonus and a 20% virtually permanent damage bonus from shield glare [since you have 55.8% CDR it's up all the time + a hellfire with towering shield, it's 100% uptime] FAR EXCEEDS that 13% extra damage while you have resource. Lets not forget that running around in Ak's lets you have perma prophet, which gives you around 30 million toughness ALL THE TIME AND also brings you back from the dead once every 30 seconds.
Akhans = 20+20=40 100% up time, Rolands = 33+20=53 25% uptime. The 40 is ALL THE TIME, the 53 is just when you have an enemy under shield glare and have all 5 stacks on the bash.
Roland's can't even come close to the DPS output, the only time it did, was when the Attack Speed was bugged on Heart Slaughter in PTR, which allowed rolands to ramp up to 9 attacks per second with that slow ass 2 hander. They fixed that before they launched the game. When you look on the Grift leaderboards and see the top 3 saders wearing Roland's, they are just HIDING their gear, they aren't using Roland's. Nobody is, because it sucks.
Rolands would be amazing with IAS everywhere, if you had a 3.0 attackspeed before Roland's doubled it, you'd be sitting pretty, the problem is, you can't have good damage with attack speed on gear, and all the fast one handers have broken low damage.
Now, If you're attacks per second were 6.0, i'd concede you'd need less damage to advance, because you're hitting way more often, so on hit procs would be better, but in order to have any kind of toughness with rolands, you need to have around 50k LoH, and you can't use Laws of Valor - Invincible to do it, since you need to use Unstoppable force so you don't run out of wrath.
So the problem with rolands is, you need to have IAS/Crit Chance/Crit Damage/Mainstat/Cooldown Reduction/50k LoH and you still need to somehow cram in toughness stats and 3 sockets on your jewelry. It requires WAY too many stats to even match AK's damage from Akhan's set + FoTF, and when I say way too many, what I mean to say is -- It's UNOBTAINABLE. There is currently 0 way to make it work.
I'm currently sitting on 2 entire sets of Rolands with a pretty beast heart slaughter and a perfect Piru Mirella and it can't even come close to matching the damage of me running around in Champion with 6 seconds down time using LIGHTNING Fist of the Heavens - Fissure. Not even CLOSE, and the damage I do with this funky off build is enough to steam roll T6 like it's normal mode, and this is just a FRACTION of the damage that I could do if I min/maxed towards Holy Shotgun. [Which I'm doing, I have a 3900 DPS FotF/Hellskull, ready to go -- I just need to hit the break point on CDR so I don't run out of wrath.]
Roland's DPS output can't even come within 30% of the damage output, let alone "Quadruple." You don't understand the game,and have NO idea what you're talking about. Which is EXACTLY the case with everyone saying M6 is "Fine."
You're all NOOBS.
For an example, i don't think that the barb needs to be buffed right now but i do think that certain elite affixes like electrified should be nerfed. This way other amulets might become viable in high GR gameplay. I'd like to believe that there's a similar "fix" for at least some of the dh problems...
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1523458-Sentry-APS-w-Marauder-6pcs
If your going to start calling for nerf's, you should learn how the class works.
But it doesn't. Take off your tasker and theos, put down ONE sentry and watch it shoot. Put on Taskers and watch it speed up.
The entire post is wrong because it's based on a fallacy. They may have TINY internal CD's, but they are so small that they might as well be shooting "All at once" they are all shooting before 1 attack per second is finished, giving you the same DPS output as if they shot all at the same EXACT time.
Go ahead, load in and test it, come back and apologize.
Those same people are saying Buriza is the best weapon, yet nobody who did 42 used a buriza to do it. Wonder why? Because his math is wrong.
You might wanna stop just "Believing" what other people post, test/try stuff out, look with your own eyes and confirm what's true and what's not. The cycle rate on the skills is at the alleged "break point" just by using a bow instead of a crossbow -- at this "rate" they are all shooting in under 1 attack per second, giving you the total DPS in 1 second, not changing your Damage Per Second ANY.
Also, do you know what a break point is? Because those guys don't. A break point is the bare minimum of X stat before Y becomes possible. I.E. Akarat's Champion has a Breakpoint on CDR, which is roughly 55.8%, once you reach that much CDR, you can cast it before it expires.
If you read that thread to completion, they recommend you NOT use 3 spenders, but that's clearly proven wrong by the leaderboard as well as by independent testing. Their whole hypothesis is flawed.
But you know, you can say I don't know how it works all you want -- and believe someone else because he posted "Pretty graphics" even though the leaderboard clearly shows he's incorrect, which makes him wrong, and NOT know how the class actually operates.
Sentries also ONLY shoot the first 3 spenders on your bar. Once you have 3 spenders on your bar, they no longer shoot "Bolts." This guys graph clearly shows the rotation on the turrets shooting 6 spenders, which isn't even possible. He shows the rotation as C M B B M B B M C B M B B M B B /repeat, but in the LIVE game, it's CMF/CMF/CMF/CMF it never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, shoots bolts, and it no longer shoot more than the first 3 you put on your bar, so if you put a 4th spender it won't ever fire the one selected 4th. It also DOESN'T shoot ALL spenders, just the ones from "Secondary" and Multishot/Cluster Arrow from Archery. You can try to put on Fan of Knives - Knives Expert which is a spender that cost 30 Hatred and it won't ever fire, even if it's the only spender on your bar.
My guess, is this is homework from the PTR build and no longer applies.
I am indeed correct, that post on "APS Breakpoints" is from March, 1st PTR build of 2.1.0. As such, it's NO LONGER relevant as they changed how the bonus works.
So. WOMP WOMP WOMP, you lose. If you have eyes you could see that you were wrong, just load up your DH and drop a single turret and watch it.
And still regardless, that's X 5 the output of a DH without M6 or 5 turrets, with no resource limit. It's OP.
Also, with around 44% CDR, you can drop a turret every 1.8 seconds or so. With 55% CDR you'd be down to just a tad over one second.
So every second you literally add 100% of your total damage to your total damage output up to 5 "stacks" as it were.
So running M6 takes a DH's total output and multiplies it by FIVE. That's Pentadamage, fuck quad damage, or double damage, it's fucking PENTADAMAGE. And to top it off, as if pentadamage wasn't enough, they have NO RESOURCES so they can face blast non-stop 100% of the time, which is going to increase the damage output by MORE than FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT OF YOUR TOTAL DAMAGE OUTPUT.
To put that in perspective, if you could do 100 million damage per second for 5 seconds, you'd do 500 million damage and then be on an empty tank. If you could do 100 million damage per second, with M6 and a Rucksack, you're doing 2.5 BILLION damage per second for UNLIMITED SECONDS.
How is that not OP? And it's actually higher than that, because that's NOT accounting for shooting THREE spenders, that's accounting for ONE. So reality is you'd be doing around 9-10 BILLION damage per second for unlimited seconds with M6, vs a Demon Hunter that could do 500 Million in 5 seconds and be empty and out of resource. The percent the M6 makes you stronger is RETARDED.
It's pretty much common sense that if you have 5 turrets that can shoot the three most powerful skills you have unlimited and at full damage, that you'd never be able to compete without it. EVER. Since without it, you can only shoot ONE SKILL at a time and on a limited reserve before you ran out of juice.
So again, I reiterate, anybody who think M6 DOESN'T need a nerf and that the DH base DOESN'T need a BUFF, is a NOOB. Flat out. You suck at this game and just copypasta best builds off the internet. You're the SAME crowd that always gravitates to the OP builds and then cries "Blizzard should make EVERYONE OP and LEAVE ME ALONE."
Straight NOOB mentality.
You're also the same crowd that cries that they made the game easier, yet are happily steamrolling extremely hard content with bugged/poorly designed builds that are OP. T6 isn't any easier now than it used to be, better gear has been gotten/created, and some of that better gear is OP like Mara 6, which is why the game feels "Easy" now.
Check out the 4ppl leader board, the dh's are using a ballista.
That was an old link, i posted it to show you the aps breakpoints. In 2.1 with 3 spenders replace the bolt with your freeze arrow or chaka. In the past all you gained were additional bolts that didnt do any damage, it has changed.
Double damage.
Double attack speed.
4x total DPS.
NERF MARA 6, BUFF DEMON HUNTER BASE = BETTER DIVERSITY SAME GRIFT DEPTH.
Nobody is pissed off that DH is at 42, we're pissed off because M6 is bad design.
When you get 15% to "x" skill, you aren't taking the skills damage and multiplying it by that percentage, you are enhancing the skills percentage by THAT percent.
So again, Shield bash does 700%, adding 100 more makes it 800%, not 1400%. I have it, it SUCKS. It doesn't even come close to the Damage output of Infinite Champion + Shotgun with Infinite resource. It's.not.even.close. My crits with Fist of the Heavens are 15 million, switching to a better damage 2 hander over my ONE HAND DARKLIGHT AND stacking physical, my crits on a skill with a HIGHER base damage were LOWER because AC wasn't on.
Shield Bash was critting for 8 million with a 39% physical damage heart slaugher with 3508 dps, with 20% physical bracers, critting for LESS than 2.1k DPS darklight and 20% lightning damage, because of Champion.
And double a SHIT attack speed is STILL a shit attack speed.
GG, noob.
Now show me a Rolands build that's using a 3993 DPS Fate of the Fell. You can't compete, I'm getting more DPS out of my weapon then you are gaining with 100% attack speed.
I have the entire set twice over, nearly 3 times over and some pieces 5 times over. I have Ak's too. I compared them.
I have a heartslaughter with 3500 damage and 29% physical. Rolands sucks.
As for m6, the rumors are just that: rumors. I personally hope they don't ever add more 6pc sets to the game as I fucking hate how restrictive they are
Bunch of WoW babies screaming nerf...god
On topic, M6 is kind of retarded, but then each class always seems to have one broken build that allows them to compete and that they're worthless without. Would it really be better if they halved all the ridiculous 6pc/broken builds right now so that more builds were viable but everyone took a huge step back in doable content?
I do like that I can actually aim to get the build now; it's not just a "play til you win the lottery" like getting a Wand of Woh or do nothing. There need to be more good sets, but I like the idea of sets on the whole.
Second off: Akkan absolutely cannot compete with Roland's for increaisng DPS. It doesn'e even come close. Roland's ramps to essentially quadruple DPS with shield bash, Akkan's best case scenario is roughly +70% and it requires giving up the actual benefit of akkan (using Prophet).
You're not comparing Akkan to Roland. You're comparing an abolutely mediocre Heartslaughter Shieldbasher to a near perfect Fate of The Fell Shotgunner. That's no contest, the 2700% weapon damage ranged AoE shotgun blast is going to absolutely shit on the maximal 2000% weapon damage melee cone.
Roland's quadruples effective weapon DPS with Shield bash. Fate of the Fell triples effective weapon damage with Heaven's Fury. It happens that Fury has better AoE and better base damage than just about every Shieldbash rune, and that's why the one does more damage than the other. Of course nothing says you can;t use FotF with Shield Bash as the ray of doom and get the best of both. But you know.
You're not actually examining what you're doing. You're bashing on something that you barely understand the mechanics of. If Shieldbash had aweapon on par with FotF for slot (and no, heartslaughter isn't even close) it would make holy shotgun look like a joke. The sad truth is that Akkan has one of the (if not the) weakest DPS bonuses of any 6p set. It just happens that Crusader weapons and shields kick ass.