For the past half year, I've leveled my wizard to P100. I heard and read online so many complaints from DHs being underpowered that eventually I started leaving any mp8-mp10 public games that had demon hunters in them. I tried avoiding inviting DHs to MP10 ubers groups. I pretty much thought they're worthless. Useless members.
Having leveled all 5 classes to 60, demon hunter being the last, I have to say that I'm surprised at how fun the DH seems so far. My gear sucks, mostly borrowed gear from my other toons, but I melt any mobs/elites quickly and efficiently at mp6 with 200k dps. The only time I die is when I forget to refresh SP: Gloom, which is the result of needing to refine my game skills. I have great mobility with vault. Amazing AOE with bola shot, spike trap, and rapid fire. Not to mention the ability to facetank any mob with SP: Gloom. I turned it up to mp10 just to see what happens, and I can still kill any normal mobs somewhat efficiently, while elite mobs do take a long time (although they do go down). Again, my gear is not that great, so I think it's reasonable I can't farm mp10 till later.
Lastly, I don't get why so many are upset with SP: Gloom and Spike Trap. I love those abilities. I never die with SP: Gloom, and Spike Trap does huge burst damage. Is it because the abilities seem "required" and instead players want "choice?" I guess coming from a wizard whose only choices were CM:WW or Archon, I have to say I am having fun doing more than mindlessly mashing the same buttons over and over again. My DH will probably be my new main along with my WD.
TLDR: I think DHs are so-so. Not terrible. Not great. Probably could use a small buff, but not entirely underpowered as seems to be the average opinion.
Being as my first and 'main' class is a DH, I felt I should chime in.
It's exactly as you state; So-so. The buffed rapid fire is awesome, but that and spike trap are the only 'good' spenders. Every other spender is under mediocre. Take impale. The premise of having a super high single target dps skill that costs a lot is cool. Instead we get a single target skill that costs 1/5th our resource and barely does more than 2 hungering arrows.
Chakram's a cool idea, but 3/5 runes are next to worthless. The ability stops as soon as you hit a wall, which makes it not worth using most of the game.
Fan of Knives for some odd reason has a 10 second CD, causing me to never use this skill after testing it out. It's a good AOE at 320% and causes a slow, but I'd rather it have no CD and just do damage. 10 seconds is forever.
Strafe. I have no idea why it was designed to spread out the damage the more mobs there are. Maybe it was to make it less like the Barbarian's WW, I'm not sure. All I know is you get more than a couple mobs, and the damage is extremely low. I'd have more fun if it just did it's damage as a constant AOE of arrows no matter the amount of enemies.
Multishot. Huge cost for the damage. A quarter of our hatred for only 165%? Bola shot is a better AOE by far, and it's free.
Cluster Arrow. Another skill designed to be a giant spender / damage dealer. Instead, it costs almost half of our resource, and does less damage than impale, albeit with a tiny AOE. Those grenades that explode after impact? Awesome idea, that would really ramp up the damage! Unfortunately those awesome grenades bounce JUST out of reach of the main target, every time. Because of how spread out they are, champ packs will only get hit by one, if any.
Anyway, I made a whole thread awhile back on what I would change / add to the Demon Hunter class. Pretty much it boils down to the DH has great ideas, but it's spenders are weak, and it's lacking any real self buffs, defensive and offensive. It's a really fun class but it also feels like it needs some work.
Out of all the classes I feel DH is the weakest even if you aim for perma gloom as the damage doesn't compare to the other classes. Every now and then it’s nice to switch to a DH for a refreshing "approach" to ranged compared to a Wiz (WD is more hybrid) but feels like a poor attempt from the Amazon class in D2 (being my second favourite class in D2).
I think in comparison to the other classes (ignoring the fact you need gloom in every build) the DH has more options for "builds", the issue as Bleu said is they all need some buffing or reduction in resource cost to make them efficient.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Compare a 200K unbuffed DPS Monk, CM Wizard, Witch Doctor, Barbarian and Demon Hunter in MP10.
The eDPS that the DH does it's just terrible. There are many many threads talking about possible buff ideas and discussing this topic in the oficial Blizzard forums:
I geared my DH for a nade build, and I can't picture her doin anything else.... sure, it may take a while, but she can survive a lot of situations, and as far as I'm concerned, not dying is better than killing stuff easier, what with how large most of the maps are.... sure, her gear isn't great either, she's just about at 100k, but I can handle any MP.... not well or efficiently, but she can handle it. Once she gains more dex and higher crit / CD she'll be golden, and I won't have any issue with her
The problem is people think that MP10 is some sort of standard of playing. They uses these broken/lame skill set ups and play MP 10 and think that all classes should have some sort of standard lame easy to use set up as well.
DH are not weak. I can play MP 10 with my demon hunter so im not quite sure what the QQ is about.
The real QQ should be. "Why is so much time being spent on AH maintenance for 6 hours every single week"?
THIS GAME IS ABOUT FARMING, YOU CAN'T HAVE AN UNDERPOWERED FARMER AND SAY THAT IT'S FINE L2P.
It's (not) funny how it's only people who play DHs as alts and/or have insane gear that think DHs are fine. I have 350k tooltip dps and am stuck at doing mp8 at the same speed my monk does mp10 with my DH's gear but with a 10M weapon with his 180k dps tooltip!
This game is not just about farming.. Or in D3s case, garbage collecting. Its about having fun and killing monsters.
L2P should be said because its pretty true. I mean, you are complaining about the speed at which you farm MP10. Really?
The problem is people think that MP10 is some sort of standard of playing. They uses these broken/lame skill set ups and play MP 10 and think that all classes should have some sort of standard lame easy to use set up as well.
I see nothing lame into a WotB barb running at the speed of light doing max dmg. In fact, i wish every class had the ability to eventually overgear the game to that point. While it's true that barbs and CM wizs don't require much gear to be able to do it, you need at least 3x more UB dps as a DH to get similar results. That simply isn't fair.
As for MP10 being a standard... It's the most loot, the most experience and the most challenge you can get playing D3.
There are a few very unbalanced skill sets ups out there that are broken in terms of balance. Hell, D3 is broken in terms of balance which is why they added MP in the 1st place. It was a lazy way of saying "Hey, we can't figure it out, so you guys do it".
Its not about the most loot or most experience. And if you wanted a challenge you would not use these lame, easy cookie cutter set-ups and judge the game from there.
I really hope Blizzard will just balance this game and remove mp from the game.
The thing I don't get is why is MP10 the 'standard' for gameplay? If the MP I am playing at is not efficient for farming or kill speed, I turn it down, no matter which class I play.
MP6-8 seems just about right for my DH (200k damage). And my DH is just as fast at mp6-8 as my p100 cm/ww wiz, or ww barb (170k dps). Perhaps my WD (160k dps firebats/COB build) would be faster.
I suppose my wiz, barb, and wd can all go mp10 without much issue, while it would feel slow on my dh.
Still, point being, if it feels like your efficiency is low at a certain MP, just turn it down... and you may start enjoying playing the game again.
You sound off as someone who plays D3 casually, who has no real insight into how DHs have it and very little understanding about MP, loot and experience mechanics.
Seriously, if the game is only about killing monsters, stick to normal difficulty. You'll have plenty of that.
The real issue is that there's such a gap in efficiency between DHs and barbs/CM wizs and to a lesse degree to monks and WDs that we feel like we're getting the short end of the stick.
Im sorry but why would you think im casual? Its it because im a girl? BTW, i play mp 10 with my demon hunter. It may not be a total face roll, but its not supposed to be.
I could simply AH myself a cookie cutter mp 10 solo build and face roll with my eyes closed. MP 10 is supposed be difficult, the problem is a few skills/item combos abuse its set up and alot of skill/stats are totally ubalanced.. Which is why MP was a bad idea in the 1st place because it was a band-aid for game issues.
It seems to me you want the game to be more broken and ubalanced and are a tad bit jealous DH don't have many simple options to choose from.
The thing I don't get is why is MP10 the 'standard' for gameplay? If the MP I am playing at is not efficient for farming or kill speed, I turn it down, no matter which class I play.
Its because of the reward factor. I say they should remove that all together. Its the same reason why people join public games for the bonus and then go off sololing.
IF blizzard just implemented MP levels without bonus's then you get those people saying its just not efficient to play. As if D3 is some sort of full time job.that requires people to play at the highest difficulty with the most minimal amounts of effort.
Its because of the reward factor. I say they should remove that all together. Its the same reason why people join public games for the bonus and then go off sololing.
IF blizzard just implemented MP levels without bonus's then you get those people saying its just not efficient to play. As if D3 is some sort of full time job.that requires people to play at the highest difficulty with the most minimal amounts of effort.
If removing bonuses = people complaining it's not efficient to play, why would blizzard make such a move? That's not a valid solution because it would never happen. Why would anyone in their right mind play mp10 when you could do the same things on mp0 for the same reward?
I simply don't get why mp10 is a standard for anything. Sure it provides the highest bonus rewards, percentage-wise, but unless you are killing things at mp10 quickly (elites in less than 20 sec), you would be better served playing at mp6-8... killing 3x more monsters at 50% less bonus still = 150% the efficiency, etc...
In fact I would say my 200k dps DH farms mp6-7 faster than all of my other toons, except my 330k dps archon wizard. Each class must be played to their own strengths.
Its because of the reward factor. I say they should remove that all together. Its the same reason why people join public games for the bonus and then go off sololing.
IF blizzard just implemented MP levels without bonus's then you get those people saying its just not efficient to play. As if D3 is some sort of full time job.that requires people to play at the highest difficulty with the most minimal amounts of effort.
. Why would anyone in their right mind play mp10 when you could do the same things on mp0 for the same reward?
Because its fun? Thats the reason i play high mp levels. Ya sure the bonus is cool and all. But then you get under geared players who play for the fun VS over geared players who play for the faster farming.
Every class has a way to move faster without having to sacrifice a passive slot. DHs have to take tactical advantage and then take either vault or smokescreen (or both) to benefit from a speed increase. And this is very discipline heavy.
Compare that to sprinting barbs or tempest rush monks. Or teleporting wizs.
As a DH, I take Vault - ToC. It provides me with both mobility and some kiting DPS. I don't take tactical advantage. I take Night Stalker, and with my gear (57% crit) I never run short of disc.
Although I have to admit, at mp6-7, I don't have to kite much at all, so with good spike trap placement, the DH still plays like a 'ranged class' to me.
^Disagree on a few things. My dh does 300unbuffed with 500+ all resists and I spent probably about 2 bil on the set (the vast majority going to the manticore). Oh, I use 4 piece nats as well for the discipline bonus.
The coefficient of nightstalker is fine. Against big packs with rapid fire bombardment, you have pretty much infinite discipline. Against a single target elite it obviously regenerates slower but it isn't an issue if you're built correctly. I have more trouble keeping hatred up with packs that interrupt my channeling then I do with discipline (hence I use punishment and bat with low attack speed).
The rest I agree with, the efficiency on high mp just isn't up to par with the other classes. I survive just fine and tank almost everything but the kill speed on mp10 is still too slow for my liking.
Part of my issue overall the way this game works is the lack of ability to find usable gear. I don't care how long it takes to do a run at certain MPs, the problem is no matter what MP with what class at which rate of efficiency you still aren't finding many good things.... DHs have it rough because good gear for them is hella expensive. Sure you can buy budget stuff, but you can only be so efficient with that gear. Personally, I see MP10 as a challenge to overcome... I WANT to run MP10. I just can't find anything worth selling / an upgrade good enough... and screw trying to buy things on the auction house... people snipe items to make profit, which screws people less fortunate to actually buy a decent item a bit cheaper, that is an uppgrade for their character... greed.... they should put the lord of greed in this game since most players are greedy...
Havent checked the manticore and dml market lately since im pretty much done with my dh for the moment. I might play her again when blizzard "fixes" the class. So i guess you could be right in terms of budget. Still if you blow lets say 500mil on a single ls monk with high ehp you will end up with a set that outfarms a 2bil dh pretty easy. Again not talking about barbs. On certain levels of gear classes should perform kinda the same which is not the case. For me it seems blizzard devs still think that range classes kite away mobs like they did in early inferno which is not reality anymore.
ATM all decent class builds(wiz/wd/dh) aiming for "face tanking". If i log on a dh i dont wanne play a "melee tank vers. 2.0". Im using range weapons for a reason. I want to kite and kill mobs on range. With the skills currently availible its kinda possible but no where near as efficient as going for the "face tank build(s)". Playing a different class should feel different and not like "oh i just use different spells but im doing pretty much the same like with a monk".
In regards to nightstalker. Imo its kinda broken when you have to rely on "big packs" to have enough disc regen. Sure the "new" mob density helps alot but as soon as the trash is cleared and you are facing only 1 or 2 left over ranged elites most people will feel the difference. As a monk you have no issue to maintain enough spirit even vs. single target. As a barb you can hota pretty much for free even vs. single target. Same goes for cm/ww. You still have plenty arcane power vs single target. On the other hand a dh or batdoc gets trouble to keep up the ressources.
Sure builds arent ment to be the "jack of all trades" but feeling totaly underpowered when facing certain elite affixes/mob types is just some sort of bad class balance.
At MP10, all classes need to facetank at one point or another in order to maintain efficient farming, except to some extent cmww wizards (perma frozen). It's simply impossible for most classes, ranged included, to kill elites at mp10 that quickly... most elites run up to you. If they have the "Fast" affix? They are on you in 1 second. So how do you maximize dps? Stand your ground, using offensive abilities, without retreating.
I'm not sure that complaining about facetanking as a DH is a valid approach. Do you expect DHs to be able to kill elites at mp10, even at BIS gear levels, before they get 1 hit on you? How overpowered would that be, no class can do that now.
A simple solution, turn down MP so you can play and kill everything at range without kiting.
It seems to me that the issue is all DH's compare themselves to CMWiz or Wotabarbs, cause those builds are the problem, not the classes, those builds srsly need to be nerfed, along with infinite archon...
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Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
The way D3 is going right now, kiting is not efficient. It's fastest to kill everything in your area and keep going forward, or at least stand your ground. It's not efficient to hit a mob, stutter step backward for 3 whole screens so it doesn't hit you, then have to retrace your steps all the way back just to get to where you were before. Now if you're saying that that's not how D3 is meant to be played (no kiting and just killing), then that's a whole different story. I take D3 for what it is.
I'm not saying DHs are meant to play exactly like every other class. On the contrary, my DH does NOT feel like my cm wiz, my ww barb, my TR monk, or my firebats WD. If you choose to go into higher MPs than your gear allows and force yourself to facetank every elite and mob that comes your way, then that's your choice. If you choose to play at an appropriate gear / MP level which facilitates efficient killing, that's my choice.
Lastly, all of this discussion seems to forget group play entirely. I'll admit, I don't play solo with my DH very often. When I get into a group with a decent comp (monk vac and/or cmww wiz), I can stand at a safe distance pewpewing and laying spike traps from afar. I rarely if ever have to worry about facetanking in a group (less than 5% of the time), but if it happens, I know I can pop SP:Gloom and rapid fire to my heart's content, or vault across poison/fire pools and get to safety.
- OP passives(Ruthless, Weapon Master and Bloodthirsty are too strong (with current availible gear)
- Whirlwind bcuz there is no collisions detection other then walls
- "Sprint/RLTW" bcuz the fury gain along with "battle rage/into the fray" is too high(with current availible gear)
- Hota bcuz the fury costs are too low compared to the dmg it deals and along with battle rage + using a -5 soj its pretty much for free
- Perma WotB = no cc other then waller and a huge dmg buff
Its kinda retarded that you can play a barb WITHOUT any fury generating skill just bcuz of battle rage/into the frey. It would be easy to fix if the devs just add a cooldown on battle rage if you use into the fray rune. The synergie between high crit chance and battle rage is just way to good on current gear levels.
I guess its safe to say most people will flock to the simplest way to play any game. Its kind of wierd, but it usually sounds like people want all skills to be buffed to the point of easy mp10 face rolling.
This game needs a major re-balance of all skills. They need to make sure every skill on every class is fairly balanced with each other.
Personally i think mp 10 should be so hard it requires a team. And they seriously need to buff champion Monsters.
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Having leveled all 5 classes to 60, demon hunter being the last, I have to say that I'm surprised at how fun the DH seems so far. My gear sucks, mostly borrowed gear from my other toons, but I melt any mobs/elites quickly and efficiently at mp6 with 200k dps. The only time I die is when I forget to refresh SP: Gloom, which is the result of needing to refine my game skills. I have great mobility with vault. Amazing AOE with bola shot, spike trap, and rapid fire. Not to mention the ability to facetank any mob with SP: Gloom. I turned it up to mp10 just to see what happens, and I can still kill any normal mobs somewhat efficiently, while elite mobs do take a long time (although they do go down). Again, my gear is not that great, so I think it's reasonable I can't farm mp10 till later.
Lastly, I don't get why so many are upset with SP: Gloom and Spike Trap. I love those abilities. I never die with SP: Gloom, and Spike Trap does huge burst damage. Is it because the abilities seem "required" and instead players want "choice?" I guess coming from a wizard whose only choices were CM:WW or Archon, I have to say I am having fun doing more than mindlessly mashing the same buttons over and over again. My DH will probably be my new main along with my WD.
Is there something I'm missing here?
http://us.battle.net...4/hero/33951543
TLDR: I think DHs are so-so. Not terrible. Not great. Probably could use a small buff, but not entirely underpowered as seems to be the average opinion.
It's exactly as you state; So-so. The buffed rapid fire is awesome, but that and spike trap are the only 'good' spenders. Every other spender is under mediocre. Take impale. The premise of having a super high single target dps skill that costs a lot is cool. Instead we get a single target skill that costs 1/5th our resource and barely does more than 2 hungering arrows.
Chakram's a cool idea, but 3/5 runes are next to worthless. The ability stops as soon as you hit a wall, which makes it not worth using most of the game.
Fan of Knives for some odd reason has a 10 second CD, causing me to never use this skill after testing it out. It's a good AOE at 320% and causes a slow, but I'd rather it have no CD and just do damage. 10 seconds is forever.
Strafe. I have no idea why it was designed to spread out the damage the more mobs there are. Maybe it was to make it less like the Barbarian's WW, I'm not sure. All I know is you get more than a couple mobs, and the damage is extremely low. I'd have more fun if it just did it's damage as a constant AOE of arrows no matter the amount of enemies.
Multishot. Huge cost for the damage. A quarter of our hatred for only 165%? Bola shot is a better AOE by far, and it's free.
Cluster Arrow. Another skill designed to be a giant spender / damage dealer. Instead, it costs almost half of our resource, and does less damage than impale, albeit with a tiny AOE. Those grenades that explode after impact? Awesome idea, that would really ramp up the damage! Unfortunately those awesome grenades bounce JUST out of reach of the main target, every time. Because of how spread out they are, champ packs will only get hit by one, if any.
Anyway, I made a whole thread awhile back on what I would change / add to the Demon Hunter class. Pretty much it boils down to the DH has great ideas, but it's spenders are weak, and it's lacking any real self buffs, defensive and offensive. It's a really fun class but it also feels like it needs some work.
Out of all the classes I feel DH is the weakest even if you aim for perma gloom as the damage doesn't compare to the other classes. Every now and then it’s nice to switch to a DH for a refreshing "approach" to ranged compared to a Wiz (WD is more hybrid) but feels like a poor attempt from the Amazon class in D2 (being my second favourite class in D2).
I think in comparison to the other classes (ignoring the fact you need gloom in every build) the DH has more options for "builds", the issue as Bleu said is they all need some buffing or reduction in resource cost to make them efficient.
The eDPS that the DH does it's just terrible. There are many many threads talking about possible buff ideas and discussing this topic in the oficial Blizzard forums:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9362996380
Here's a recent one.
DH are not weak. I can play MP 10 with my demon hunter so im not quite sure what the QQ is about.
The real QQ should be. "Why is so much time being spent on AH maintenance for 6 hours every single week"?
This game is not just about farming.. Or in D3s case, garbage collecting. Its about having fun and killing monsters.
L2P should be said because its pretty true. I mean, you are complaining about the speed at which you farm MP10. Really?
There are a few very unbalanced skill sets ups out there that are broken in terms of balance. Hell, D3 is broken in terms of balance which is why they added MP in the 1st place. It was a lazy way of saying "Hey, we can't figure it out, so you guys do it".
Its not about the most loot or most experience. And if you wanted a challenge you would not use these lame, easy cookie cutter set-ups and judge the game from there.
I really hope Blizzard will just balance this game and remove mp from the game.
Really?
1.) Never spent a dime on this game except the original purchase.
2.) Gold and drops happen everywhere.
3.) Paragon level is just a bonus. Its not like leveling matters there are no skill trees.
4.) Are you mad? lulz.
MP6-8 seems just about right for my DH (200k damage). And my DH is just as fast at mp6-8 as my p100 cm/ww wiz, or ww barb (170k dps). Perhaps my WD (160k dps firebats/COB build) would be faster.
I suppose my wiz, barb, and wd can all go mp10 without much issue, while it would feel slow on my dh.
Still, point being, if it feels like your efficiency is low at a certain MP, just turn it down... and you may start enjoying playing the game again.
Im sorry but why would you think im casual? Its it because im a girl? BTW, i play mp 10 with my demon hunter. It may not be a total face roll, but its not supposed to be.
I could simply AH myself a cookie cutter mp 10 solo build and face roll with my eyes closed. MP 10 is supposed be difficult, the problem is a few skills/item combos abuse its set up and alot of skill/stats are totally ubalanced.. Which is why MP was a bad idea in the 1st place because it was a band-aid for game issues.
It seems to me you want the game to be more broken and ubalanced and are a tad bit jealous DH don't have many simple options to choose from.
Its because of the reward factor. I say they should remove that all together. Its the same reason why people join public games for the bonus and then go off sololing.
IF blizzard just implemented MP levels without bonus's then you get those people saying its just not efficient to play. As if D3 is some sort of full time job.that requires people to play at the highest difficulty with the most minimal amounts of effort.
If removing bonuses = people complaining it's not efficient to play, why would blizzard make such a move? That's not a valid solution because it would never happen. Why would anyone in their right mind play mp10 when you could do the same things on mp0 for the same reward?
I simply don't get why mp10 is a standard for anything. Sure it provides the highest bonus rewards, percentage-wise, but unless you are killing things at mp10 quickly (elites in less than 20 sec), you would be better served playing at mp6-8... killing 3x more monsters at 50% less bonus still = 150% the efficiency, etc...
In fact I would say my 200k dps DH farms mp6-7 faster than all of my other toons, except my 330k dps archon wizard. Each class must be played to their own strengths.
Because its fun? Thats the reason i play high mp levels. Ya sure the bonus is cool and all. But then you get under geared players who play for the fun VS over geared players who play for the faster farming.
I know it won't happen. But, its just a thought
As a DH, I take Vault - ToC. It provides me with both mobility and some kiting DPS. I don't take tactical advantage. I take Night Stalker, and with my gear (57% crit) I never run short of disc.
Although I have to admit, at mp6-7, I don't have to kite much at all, so with good spike trap placement, the DH still plays like a 'ranged class' to me.
The coefficient of nightstalker is fine. Against big packs with rapid fire bombardment, you have pretty much infinite discipline. Against a single target elite it obviously regenerates slower but it isn't an issue if you're built correctly. I have more trouble keeping hatred up with packs that interrupt my channeling then I do with discipline (hence I use punishment and bat with low attack speed).
The rest I agree with, the efficiency on high mp just isn't up to par with the other classes. I survive just fine and tank almost everything but the kill speed on mp10 is still too slow for my liking.
At MP10, all classes need to facetank at one point or another in order to maintain efficient farming, except to some extent cmww wizards (perma frozen). It's simply impossible for most classes, ranged included, to kill elites at mp10 that quickly... most elites run up to you. If they have the "Fast" affix? They are on you in 1 second. So how do you maximize dps? Stand your ground, using offensive abilities, without retreating.
I'm not sure that complaining about facetanking as a DH is a valid approach. Do you expect DHs to be able to kill elites at mp10, even at BIS gear levels, before they get 1 hit on you? How overpowered would that be, no class can do that now.
A simple solution, turn down MP so you can play and kill everything at range without kiting.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
I'm not saying DHs are meant to play exactly like every other class. On the contrary, my DH does NOT feel like my cm wiz, my ww barb, my TR monk, or my firebats WD. If you choose to go into higher MPs than your gear allows and force yourself to facetank every elite and mob that comes your way, then that's your choice. If you choose to play at an appropriate gear / MP level which facilitates efficient killing, that's my choice.
Lastly, all of this discussion seems to forget group play entirely. I'll admit, I don't play solo with my DH very often. When I get into a group with a decent comp (monk vac and/or cmww wiz), I can stand at a safe distance pewpewing and laying spike traps from afar. I rarely if ever have to worry about facetanking in a group (less than 5% of the time), but if it happens, I know I can pop SP:Gloom and rapid fire to my heart's content, or vault across poison/fire pools and get to safety.
I guess its safe to say most people will flock to the simplest way to play any game. Its kind of wierd, but it usually sounds like people want all skills to be buffed to the point of easy mp10 face rolling.
This game needs a major re-balance of all skills. They need to make sure every skill on every class is fairly balanced with each other.
Personally i think mp 10 should be so hard it requires a team. And they seriously need to buff champion Monsters.