Demon Hunter E-DPS -- Blizzard Take Action --

  • #1
    Hi DFans,

    With an attempt to put the final nail in the coffin on the argument regarding whether DHs have a good amount of EFFECTIVE dps or not when compared to other classes.

    -- Here we have myself with Tokio's Gear --

    Video: ---> http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace/c/2140237

    I have been playing around I tried some crazy !@#$ these 2 set ups, so far, seems to be the most optimal but I'm still working out the kinks and am open to suggestions but the point remains. DHs don't have enough E-DPS. I could always be more optimal gear-wise (but at that point who cares equal geared class will still out dps DHs)

    I was running 402k Unbuffed WITH soj.

    1st Attempt: 47 secs
    2nd Attempt: death lolz :(
    3rd Attempt: 45 secs

    Now here is is Tokio (running 362k with an soj) accomplishing this feat in 19 Seconds:

    http://www.diablofans.com/topic/91239-hey-guys-tokio-here/

    Okay guys, hope this gets some attention and Blizzard takes action sooner rather than later.

    ===========================
    TheDonAce@D2JSP
    http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace
    ===========================
  • #2
    Good topic and my DH is indeed not feeling much fun lately as well... but I'll have to move this to the DH forums, where it belongs. :)
  • #3
    Demon hunters are part of the girl classes of diablo 3. On paper there is nothing in this game that can theoretically keep up with a demon hunters damage, and honestly they can't, as long as me monster power is low enough.

    Its general perception that "a DH can't do mp10" even tho proHacker has proven this to be false on multiple occasions, but it takes a very specific kind of gear and skill combination which will get easily trumped by barbs, monks and wizards. Its not because you have too little damage but because the fundamental structure of the class favors lower MP running.

    Accept what your class does best or rethink your options.
  • #4
    No DH with decent enough gear says they can't do MP10. They complain about not being effective enough at higher MPs.

    Yeah, our class is great at running mp 0-2. Barbs for instance aren't since they can't generate enough fury to keep wotb up. So they are limited to running MP 5 faster than MP2. Poor barbs.

    Also, Monks are up to par with DHs on lower MPs but far superior past MP4.

    The devs are pushing for people to play high MPs, with superior bonuses to drops, MF, GF and exp. Wich will only get better next patch because of multiplicative NV. And DHs will lag even further behind.

    Strafir all you're really saying is shit luck. Might as well not bother replying if that's all you have to say.

    (EDIT)

    It's not our class that's limited. It's blizzard's view of how MP would affect this game. The old inferno difficulty was around MP2-3 and that's what DHs were balanced and (severely) nerfed around. It's time to make some changes to allow them to function in a D3 with MP.
  • #5
    DH lacks of open mechanics on resources both Hatred and discipline, they all suck on higher mp. DH skills mechanics are bad and only few of skills actually scale good. Bola hits in the face and what is left is sticky note : why use spender if i cant use it all time if i have aoe generator with good dps.
    I feel like DH design is outdated from times when there was no Monster Power lvl. Funny small numbers on % dps on so many skills that are not aoe (strafe other then demolition, HA, Impale). And also why o why was Smoke screen nerfed so much, it should be at least 2s with lingering fog cmon, almost half of base discipline pool cost and 1.5 s instead of original 3s.
    DH is too weak. No point in stacking discipline, no real point in using legacy Nat set which i think was also part of DH design on start and when they removed disc regen bonus after 1.0.4 they didnt think that skills and new discipline status wont work well together.
    and most of all we are forced to use manticore with 2 sockets or loose tons of dps . great design.
  • #6
    @Strafir,

    So what you're saying is that we should be happy we can run low MP's more effectively than... Barbs? Cause that's basically the only class that can't run low MP's as effectively as DH's, however, they can probably do MP5 as effectively as we do MP1-2.

    So if that's your logic, then you believe its right for the Demon Hunter to be a class which can't benefit as other classes do to ALL of the new game content. Farming keys on higher MP's so that it can actually drop once in a while, uber bosses (Most DH's arent invited to parties because of the eDPS problem they have), and basically all the new things Blizzard is introducing with the next patch that modifies gameplay experience, like the % boost on Exp and Magic find which is obviously more effective on higher MP's.

    That's just like saying its fair that a class exists in a game just to get to lvl 20 when all other classes get to level 100.

    Also, I think this game has been on the market long enough for people to still think paper DPS is important, it's not, and the DH is the perfect example, you can have 250k DPS and a Monk, Barb, or any other class basically with half of that will do things faster and more effectively than you, just because your class was made to suck and we just got to "accept" it. Paper DPS only matters if you have the skills to back it up, otherwise its just a nice big number on a sheet that does nothing for you. DPS might be a good reference on other classes, but that's only because their skills do the damage needed for it to be relevant, Id rather have 150k DPS and a 800%+ skill like the Monks Bell for example, than have a huge amount of DPS on paper but a skill that does 1/4 of the damage their's does, or 1/2 of the damage but 3 times the resources.

    I'm not saying the other classes are OP, balance exists in this game, it just doesnt include the DH, and no, that's not right, and not one person that likes the DH class should just accept things when people know there's a problem, if you are gonna have 5 classes and one of them limited to low MP's then why have it at all? Blizzarrd is aiming to make the game funner for everyone, aiming to encourage people to play higher MP's, but what they need to do first is adapt this class for higher MP's before releasing content which doesn't affect us, or in fact, just drags us farther from where we should be, along with the other classes being able to do what they do, people that roll a DH dont pay less for the game, so why limit them to half of its content?
  • #7
    Quote from overneathe

    Good topic and my DH is indeed not feeling much fun lately as well... but I'll have to move this to the DH forums, where it belongs. :)


    True,

    I have had so many friends quit their DHs to go and roll Barbs or CM wizards. I wish blizzard would do something about this to fix this dying class. I have been doing more testing and I also found that my 120m Barb can clear KD2 almost twice as fast as this top 30 dps DH -- If blizzard does not see this as a problem then the DH class is screwed.

    I will post a video of my findings when I get some time to make one!

    Thanks for the support so far guys, lets get this issue addressed by Blizzard.

    -- Here is a thread I made on bnet (1st one got closed by Blizzard for an unknown reason):

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568988889

    ===========================
    TheDonAce@D2JSP
    http://www.twitch.tv/the_donace
    ===========================
  • #8
    Quote from Strafir

    Demon hunters are part of the girl classes of diablo 3. On paper there is nothing in this game that can theoretically keep up with a demon hunters damage, and honestly they can't, as long as me monster power is low enough.

    Its general perception that "a DH can't do mp10" even tho proHacker has proven this to be false on multiple occasions, but it takes a very specific kind of gear and skill combination which will get easily trumped by barbs, monks and wizards. Its not because you have too little damage but because the fundamental structure of the class favors lower MP running.

    Accept what your class does best or rethink your options.


    Your whole point is invalid because Blizzard with recent patchs tries to give incentive to play at highers monster powers, DE drops for example are a clear proof of that. A well deisgned game would have classes that play different, but all of them should shine with the right gear on the top difficulties.

    Also the resource system of DH put them behind other classes who can just run around facerolling and spamming every skill like no tomorrow, so that need an adjust too IMHO OR, if you dont like DHs getting buffed nerf all the other "OP" classes like barb with the perma cc inmunity or monks retarded dmg because right now the difference its too big.
  • #9
    In a perfect world everyone could do anything but that isn't the case of course. A demon hunter is a fast moving acrobat with linear aoe abilities that does extremely well as long as the common enemy doesn't take long to kill. Other classes do fine and a little worse than fine, but I just don't see how anyone could keep up with a DH with a setbuffed disc regen in speed and kills on lower MPs.

    What OP is asking for is too much. To get a DH to the level of simplicity that other classes get away with would mean a complete rewrite of the class because the necessary tools and functions are not there. When you think about it, having a class do as well as Monks or Barbs on high MPs while being literally immune to damage isn't realistic.

    Nothing is stopping you or any other DH from playing on MP10, it just isn't as effective and easy as with most other classes because of the fundamental design of the class.
  • #10
    The problem isnt in the design of the class, the problem is as simply as the current damage of the skills. Making a DH on par with the other classes isn't as hard as you think, you don't need to redesign anything, you just need to tweak the skills damage and test it till our eDPS reflects our paper DPS, like it does on every other class. The monk is where it is because of the change on its skills, no one needed to rewrite the class, the bell jumped from 300 to 800% and that put them back on the map, without mentioning all of the other buffs they got. Again, I'm not saying he is OP, but he is balanced with the other classes now, while we are not. A buff on our skills for example would help us greatly because we would kill things at the same rate that other classes, which has nothing wrong to it. In fact, DH's are supposed to be a DPS class, but currently they have the worst eDPS.

    And theres no issue with survivability either, no one is complaining about that, they just believe that a DH's eDPS sucks for a main DPS class, and that our skills right now dont do the required damage to compete with other classes on higher MPs. We don't need simplicity, we need more damage, the class would stay the same, play the same, just do more DPS and therefore kill things faster. I repeat, I don't find it that complicated, we dont need new tools and functions, just the a buff on our damage skills that would place us on the level that other classes are right now.
  • #11
    @Incite

    If sheet dps was a reflection to how much damage a DH could constantly dish out it would literally be like an atom bomb constantly going off from a source that is unkillable. Its alot easier to buff a class like a monk to do somewhat more damage because he still has to take damage to do it. What's stopping this from being just a damage tweak is that it would enable you to play with 15k hp 50 resistance and all out damage because you just don't need to risk taking damage.
  • #12
    As you can probably see from the video. Part of making any Class' E-DPS higher is by including skills that do simultaneous DPS while maintaining good enough mitigation to be able to hold your ground in most scenarios. In order to achieve this I used Rain Of Vengeance which is a single cast and I can just let it be and it will do its job, putting down spike traps and in between spike traps stacking Bola shots. The reason other Classes have much higher E-DPS is because:

    1) Their Buffs are much better -- I was running Archery, Cull The Weak (Cold Soj+ RoV + Caltrops) , Custom Engineering but those still don't match
    Tokio and I have discussed this extensively and we have concluded that our buffs are a big part of our problems, our Steady Aim is pretty useless in most situations and usually we lose E-DPS trying to keep ourselves at a distance from monsters so that the buff is active.

    2) The skills that other classes have either work off of breakpoints in attack speed and crit chance or just work together very well to do very effective simultaneous DPS thereby boosting their E-DPS (i.e. Sweeping Wind).

    3) Because our E-DPS is much lower our survivability is also much lower than say, Tokio's, because he does so much damage extremely fast that 3% life steal is overkill for him and he does not have the 35% mitigation that Gloom gives us DHs. Tokio and I were running at the same level of base EHP, yet even I with perma gloom was unable to coast through as he did (at least in the surviving sense). Point being that, I was running MUCH higher mitigation (because of Gloom of course) than Tokio and MUCH higher life steal% yet HE is able to survive through a lot more because of his huge amount of E-DPS.
  • #13
    You can't really say demon hunters don't come with extremely good skills and abilities to choose from. The amount of passive damage boost you gain from abilities and skills trumps any other class and the values only scale better and better with more gear. I've seen people do pretty amazing things with bows if the crossbow bonus isn't enough.

    Playing a barb or monk forces you into melee range of everything. You could literally have 1 billion DPS but without enough HP and Resistance you couldn't down anything. This is something a demon hunter never has to come to terms with especially with the passive 15% life steal buff. Granting a fast moving smoke screening ranged class the ability to pack the same punch as melees would clearly be unfair.

    We again come to the point that changing the fundamentals of the class is pretty much the only reasonable way to let them be competitive on high MPs, and basically dominate the rest of the game.

    Accept what you're good at or rethink your options.
  • #14
    I think what we lack the most atm is the passive life steal. Chaining gloom is starting to get a little boring.
    Also, a little dps buff would be more than welcome. Our biggest problem atm is the resource regen and an increse in that would solve most of our problems.
  • #15
    "he amount of passive damage boost you gain from abilities and skills trumps any other class and the values only scale better and better with more gear. I've seen people do pretty amazing things with bows if the crossbow bonus isn't enough."ds

    They dont, all a dh gets is nice numbers instead of nice dps.
    The only skill that does even remotely good dps is the traps and those really suck at usage for a RANGED class.
    U need to stand there and hope that the mob dont run out, if they do your dps is totally screwed.
    THe activation time is killing the fun, the efficiency and the survivability (those 1,5seconds to activate are more then enough to get screwed while putting them up).
    Thats 275%dps, the most a dh can get.
    THAT IS melee style since theres no way to play ranged traps, so it should deal the same amount of dps as melee abillity buts its not even near those 1000%weapon dmg shit barbs and monks can spam to have a shitload of fun.
    Cluster arrow could be fun but its too damn expensive and we cant go nirvana mode or infinity fury mode like any barb and monk can.

    In the end every pro dh argument is totally invalid, they ARE weak and its reflected in player base.
    If we could spam any of our 200%+weapon dmg skills and if we could survive a second without shadow power on it would be about fine but it isnt, we cant spam 406%weapon dmg+extra crit.

    Dont get me wrong, i tried with any kind of build and if grenades stuff would be stronger it would be a load of fun to play, same as if we had the old tentacles with ll we could farm brain afk on medium mp which IS fun sometimes.

    On the itemization point theres dh vs wizzard which both have fewer players but since dex is used by two classes those items cost a lot more then wizzard or wd items.
  • #16
    Quote from halfzware

    "he amount of passive damage boost you gain from abilities and skills trumps any other class and the values only scale better and better with more gear. I've seen people do pretty amazing things with bows if the crossbow bonus isn't enough."ds

    They dont, all a dh gets is nice numbers instead of nice dps.
    The only skill that does even remotely good dps is the traps and those really suck at usage for a RANGED class.
    U need to stand there and hope that the mob dont run out, if they do your dps is totally screwed.
    THe activation time is killing the fun, the efficiency and the survivability (those 1,5seconds to activate are more then enough to get screwed while putting them up).
    Thats 275%dps, the most a dh can get.
    THAT IS melee style since theres no way to play ranged traps, so it should deal the same amount of dps as melee abillity buts its not even near those 1000%weapon dmg shit barbs and monks can spam to have a shitload of fun.
    Cluster arrow could be fun but its too damn expensive and we cant go nirvana mode or infinity fury mode like any barb and monk can.

    In the end every pro dh argument is totally invalid, they ARE weak and its reflected in player base.
    If we could spam any of our 200%+weapon dmg skills and if we could survive a second without shadow power on it would be about fine but it isnt, we cant spam 406%weapon dmg+extra crit.

    Dont get me wrong, i tried with any kind of build and if grenades stuff would be stronger it would be a load of fun to play, same as if we had the old tentacles with ll we could farm brain afk on medium mp which IS fun sometimes.

    On the itemization point theres dh vs wizzard which both have fewer players but since dex is used by two classes those items cost a lot more then wizzard or wd items.


    You and many others make monster powers into this huge pissing contest for no reason at all. Playing mp5 as efficiently as a geared demon hunter does will result in a much greater amount of demonic essences and arguably a similar amount of legendaries with item levels worth identifying. Just because it doesn't sound as cool to brag about or won't bring as much revenue to a stream title doesn't mean it can't do the job.

    Equip that legacy natalya and ramp the monster power down to a level where three traps more than executes an elitekill. You'll end up at a very similar level in profits than someone doing mp10.
  • #17
    There is no way to play MP5 as efficiently as other classes as a DH, unless your gear is in the billions. And I find your suggestion humurous, telling us to use traps to 3 shot an elite @ MP5 when that's what decent geared barbs and monks are doing on MP8.

    Also, you may not know this, but with the changes last patch added, MP10 is by far the best MP to farm for loot and exp. This is only going to get more evident next patch with NV buffs being multiplicative and with extra exp (also multiplicative) as well extra mf and gf past cap per party member meaning 5 stack MP10 in a party will be the best exp and best loot.

    The only reason DHs never openly revolted against being innefective on higher MPs was because they were only less effective at key farming and ubers (however, there have been threads about how DHs eficiency is bad on high MPs for many months now, especially on oficial forums). This is something more in line with what you're trying to say. But now that MP0-1 is no longer the most efficient way to farm loot and exp, wich is this game's primary goal, there simply is no way to ignore how bad DHs now have it.

    Buff DHs for great justice.

    (EDIT)

    AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP USING LEGACY NAT AS AN EXCUSE. IT'S A BROKEN SET THAT NO LONGER DROPS, EVEN IF IT WAS THE ABSOLUTE PANACEA, WICH IT ISN'T FOR ANTYHING BUT LOW MP SPEED FARMING OR TO RELEASE A SKILL AND/OR A PASSIVE SLOT FOR NO DPS GAINS, THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH LEGACY NATS FOR EVERY DH OUT THERE.
  • #18
    <3 CAPS
    not like new nats or even a mempo build with Nightstalker wouldn't get the job done. Nonetheless I agree about buffing DHs. Disc management isn't the problem, though. What needs to change is hatred costs and/or the damage of heavy hitting attacks we have. Being able to run a Cluster Arrow build that can spam it's primary attack similar to HotA barbs would be awesome.
  • #19
    "Playing mp5 as efficiently as a geared demon hunter does will result in a much greater amount of demonic essences and arguably a similar amount of legendaries with item levels worth identifying. "
    its too bad but after they changed/fixed mp10 its not anymore.
    Also, legacy nats is nothing that anybody has/could get and with it you will STILL be slower at mp5 then a tornado and even then a hota barb, not to mention an equally geared tempest rush monk that can use fleet footed and still kill packs faster then you as a dh (if the packs wouldnt move at all and stack up nicely in front of you it would, could, be maybe as fast but they dont do it^^).

    I swap my gear from monk to dh a lot and i really tried all the builds now and monk is faster, easier, has more options in builds and its less frustrating.
    DH is a tiny bit cooler and i enjoy playing calamity dh so i play him sometimes until i sold the calamity overpriced or blizz fixes some stuff. Whatever comes first^^
  • #20
    what i would change is, make the grenades ( all runes) have further range + increase their projectile speed. on top of that i would reduce the cost of cluster arrow by max 10, and I think that would bring joy for that build :)
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