DH "Perma" INVISIBLE cheesy build

  • #21
    Quote from GT4


    Re-read my post. I edited it after you replied.

    ^_^

    Not meaning to be smug or anything - just meaning that I put some more into that post for you to read ^_^.
  • #22
    Quote from GT4

    Quote from sequelator

    I am NOT saying this is an exploit, or this could beat Inferno because it CANT. This is just a build to farm only on chests and get to some bosses without killing stuff. If you can kill those bosses, I don't know(and of course you have have to respec right before trying...)
    And smoke screen is not unbalaced imo, cuz the Disc cost is high and you are vulnerable for a moment between smoke screens


    I've mentioned this multiple times now but according to Blizzard, you simply cannot skip (rare/champion) packs. So unless we assume Blizzard is wrong from the getgo, this will not work to effectively farm anything - and if we were to believe that Blizzard is wrong, where would we make the cut? Maybe they also lied about barrels being able to drop the best items? Maybe they also lied about there being an Inferno mode whatsoever? You probably see where this is going.


    I'm not saying Blizzard is wrong. I believe monsters in Inferno will be as fast as you, and eventually will be immune to your CCs, but if you really want to skip something, I am pretty sure you can. Maybe some wizard with wormhole build...but it is not important. What blizzard is saying is: 95% chance that you won't be able to skip rare/champions.

    If I say: "Metals are solid." it is just fine, I am not a liar...Just don't mind an exception(like Mercury, in this exemple).
  • #23
    Quote from Red_Panda

    If I recall correctly...a few of the boys in blue said they'd choose the DH if they were specifically farming.


    I wonder why. -scratch furry chin-


    That's actually a fairly easy one. Demon Hunters have the strongest mobility ability in D3 overall right now. Runed vault combines the sheer amount of burst mobility of a runed teleport with the flexibility of never having a cooldown. So once you spend more time traveling between packs and less time killing those packs, you'll obviously want highest overall mobility and thus a DH.

    Quote from sequelator

    I'm not saying Blizzard is wrong. I believe monsters in Inferno will be as fast as you, and eventually will be immune to your CCs, but if you really want to skip something, I am pretty sure you can. Maybe some wizard with wormhole build...but it is not important. What blizzard is saying is: 95% chance that you won't be able to skip rare/champions.

    If I say: "Metals are solid." it is just fine, I am not a liar...Just don't mind an exception(like Mercury, in this exemple).

    That may make sense when you look at it purely by chances as in:
    DHs are 1/5 of all classes and the likelihood of them having those skills is 1% so enemies will be skipped at most 0.2% of the time.

    However that's not how games work. If one skill or even skill combination allows you to skip the majority of packs, soon everybody will be playing that class and that build. Actually you'd be forced to do that build if you don't want to be at a disadvantage. And that's something that Blizzard won't allow to happen. They'd allow one skill build to destroy all ideals they have had when working on the game for six years.
  • #24
    I knew the answer to the first one...it was just sarcasm. =)

    Quote from GT4

    Quote from Red_Panda

    If I recall correctly...a few of the boys in blue said they'd choose the DH if they were specifically farming.


    I wonder why. -scratch furry chin-


    That's actually a fairly easy one. Demon Hunters have the strongest mobility ability in D3 overall right now. Runed vault combines the sheer amount of burst mobility of a runed teleport with the flexibility of never having a cooldown. So once you spend more time traveling between packs and less time killing those packs, you'll obviously want highest overall mobility and thus a DH.

    Quote from sequelator

    I'm not saying Blizzard is wrong. I believe monsters in Inferno will be as fast as you, and eventually will be immune to your CCs, but if you really want to skip something, I am pretty sure you can. Maybe some wizard with wormhole build...but it is not important. What blizzard is saying is: 95% chance that you won't be able to skip rare/champions.

    If I say: "Metals are solid." it is just fine, I am not a liar...Just don't mind an exception(like Mercury, in this exemple).

    That may make sense when you look at it purely by chances as in:
    DHs are 1/5 of all classes and the likelihood of them having those skills is 1% so enemies will be skipped at most 0.2% of the time.

    However that's not how games work. If one skill or even skill combination allows you to skip the majority of packs, soon everybody will be playing that class and that build. Actually you'd be forced to do that build if you don't want to be at a disadvantage. And that's something that Blizzard won't allow to happen. They'd allow one skill build to destroy all ideals they have had when working on the game for six years.


    How can you even say that everybody would use this build? Chances are if you're skipping them - you're doing it because you can't kill them. I highly doubt Blizzard would even if you're running around breaking barrels.

    Think about that for a minute. If you can't kill the regular mobs - will you be able to kill the bosses? If you can't kill either - then who gives a damn?
  • #25
    I agree that Jay wasn't taking into consideration an entire build dedicated to skipping monster packs when he made his statement. I have a feeling it's entirely possible for this build to work out and it's plausible that you will be able to skip monsters due to it.

    That being said, overall I don't think the build will be overly effective. The moment you get his with Nightmarish or get stuck by a waller/jailer or some kind of 'silence' ability we may not yet know about that prevents you from using your abilities, or getting caught in random traps on said lootable objects and you'll likely end up dying.

    I think you may be able to manage to get to some chests/corpses etc. but overall, you will eventually die and those deaths + time spent getting to those lootable objects successfully won't award you a net gain. It's relatively common knowledge that chests/corpses and other lootable objects are relatively inferior to killing monsters for loot and treasure. There is the resplendent chests and if you can manage to get to several of them with minimal collateral damage, it may be worth it. However, on the other hand it could actually be surprisingly effective and extremely viable. All of this is just speculation anyway.

    At any rate, +1 for coming up with a truly unique character build.
    Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
    Bringing torment and pain to others.
    Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
    Perhaps...

    it is time to die.
  • #26
    Quote from CasmX

    I agree that Jay wasn't taking into consideration an entire build dedicated to skipping monster packs when he made his statement. I have a feeling it's entirely possible for this build to work out and it's plausible that you will be able to skip monsters due to it.

    That being said, overall I don't think the build will be overly effective. The moment you get his with Nightmarish or get stuck by a waller/jailer or some kind of 'silence' ability we may not yet know about that prevents you from using your abilities, or getting caught in random traps on said lootable objects and you'll likely end up dying.

    I think you may be able to manage to get to some chests/corpses etc. but overall, you will eventually die and those deaths + time spent getting to those lootable objects successfully won't award you a net gain. It's relatively common knowledge that chests/corpses and other lootable objects are relatively inferior to killing monsters for loot and treasure. There is the resplendent chests and if you can manage to get to several of them with minimal collateral damage, it may be worth it. However, on the other hand it could actually be surprisingly effective and extremely viable. All of this is just speculation anyway.

    At any rate, +1 for coming up with a truly unique character build.


    While I agree with the rest, I don't agree with your first sentence. He said the challenge (of not dying) in Inferno lies in the fact that unlike in lower difficulties, you cannot simply skip a pack if it's too hard. If, however, there was a build that allowed to reliably skip packs, what would hinder you from quickly speccing that build, skipping the pack, and going back to your usual build?
    Remember that he was talking about progressing/clearing through Inferno, not farming Inferno. Thus losing the Nephalem Valor buff is not an argument.
  • #27
    Quote from GT4

    That may make sense when you look at it purely by chances as in:
    DHs are 1/5 of all classes and the likelihood of them having those skills is 1% so enemies will be skipped at most 0.2% of the time.

    However that's not how games work. If one skill or even skill combination allows you to skip the majority of packs, soon everybody will be playing that class and that build. Actually you'd be forced to do that build if you don't want to be at a disadvantage. And that's something that Blizzard won't allow to happen. They'd allow one skill build to destroy all ideals they have had when working on the game for six years.


    Even if it is broken, fixing it is not hard. Just add a 3-5 sec CD or use more Disc...I think every class could skip a pack if they REALLY want to.But, even if you can, doesn't mean you should...Maybe it is not worth it.
  • #28
    Quote from GT4

    Quote from CasmX

    I agree that Jay wasn't taking into consideration an entire build dedicated to skipping monster packs when he made his statement. I have a feeling it's entirely possible for this build to work out and it's plausible that you will be able to skip monsters due to it.

    That being said, overall I don't think the build will be overly effective. The moment you get his with Nightmarish or get stuck by a waller/jailer or some kind of 'silence' ability we may not yet know about that prevents you from using your abilities, or getting caught in random traps on said lootable objects and you'll likely end up dying.

    I think you may be able to manage to get to some chests/corpses etc. but overall, you will eventually die and those deaths + time spent getting to those lootable objects successfully won't award you a net gain. It's relatively common knowledge that chests/corpses and other lootable objects are relatively inferior to killing monsters for loot and treasure. There is the resplendent chests and if you can manage to get to several of them with minimal collateral damage, it may be worth it. However, on the other hand it could actually be surprisingly effective and extremely viable. All of this is just speculation anyway.

    At any rate, +1 for coming up with a truly unique character build.


    While I agree with the rest, I don't agree with your first sentence. He said the challenge (of not dying) in Inferno lies in the fact that unlike in lower difficulties, you cannot simply skip a pack if it's too hard. If, however, there was a build that allowed to reliably skip packs, what would hinder you from quickly speccing that build, skipping the pack, and going back to your usual build?
    Remember that he was talking about progressing/clearing through Inferno, not farming Inferno. Thus losing the Nephalem Valor buff is not an argument.


    Time would hinder you.

    Doing that would be a colossal waste of time. If you can use your regular build and kill them - why the hell would you switch just to break barrels?

    lol...
  • #29
    Quote from CasmX

    I agree that Jay wasn't taking into consideration an entire build dedicated to skipping monster packs when he made his statement. I have a feeling it's entirely possible for this build to work out and it's plausible that you will be able to skip monsters due to it.

    That being said, overall I don't think the build will be overly effective. The moment you get his with Nightmarish or get stuck by a waller/jailer or some kind of 'silence' ability we may not yet know about that prevents you from using your abilities, or getting caught in random traps on said lootable objects and you'll likely end up dying.

    I think you may be able to manage to get to some chests/corpses etc. but overall, you will eventually die and those deaths + time spent getting to those lootable objects successfully won't award you a net gain. It's relatively common knowledge that chests/corpses and other lootable objects are relatively inferior to killing monsters for loot and treasure. There is the resplendent chests and if you can manage to get to several of them with minimal collateral damage, it may be worth it. However, on the other hand it could actually be surprisingly effective and extremely viable. All of this is just speculation anyway.

    At any rate, +1 for coming up with a truly unique character build.


    QFT

    Thank You! That is basically what I was trying to say. I guess I just lack the "explanation skills"...
  • #30
    Quote from Red_Panda

    Quote from GT4

    Quote from CasmX

    I agree that Jay wasn't taking into consideration an entire build dedicated to skipping monster packs when he made his statement. I have a feeling it's entirely possible for this build to work out and it's plausible that you will be able to skip monsters due to it.

    That being said, overall I don't think the build will be overly effective. The moment you get his with Nightmarish or get stuck by a waller/jailer or some kind of 'silence' ability we may not yet know about that prevents you from using your abilities, or getting caught in random traps on said lootable objects and you'll likely end up dying.

    I think you may be able to manage to get to some chests/corpses etc. but overall, you will eventually die and those deaths + time spent getting to those lootable objects successfully won't award you a net gain. It's relatively common knowledge that chests/corpses and other lootable objects are relatively inferior to killing monsters for loot and treasure. There is the resplendent chests and if you can manage to get to several of them with minimal collateral damage, it may be worth it. However, on the other hand it could actually be surprisingly effective and extremely viable. All of this is just speculation anyway.

    At any rate, +1 for coming up with a truly unique character build.


    While I agree with the rest, I don't agree with your first sentence. He said the challenge (of not dying) in Inferno lies in the fact that unlike in lower difficulties, you cannot simply skip a pack if it's too hard. If, however, there was a build that allowed to reliably skip packs, what would hinder you from quickly speccing that build, skipping the pack, and going back to your usual build?
    Remember that he was talking about progressing/clearing through Inferno, not farming Inferno. Thus losing the Nephalem Valor buff is not an argument.


    Time would hinder you.

    Doing that would be a colossal waste of time. If you can use your regular build and kill them - why the hell would you switch just to break barrels?

    lol...


    I underlined the problem in your argumentation. The situation in question was that you could not kill said pack because of their random affixes. You could just skip them and go on with farming normal enemies (and maybe even bosses) skipping everything the RNG caused to become difficult. Not to mention wiping several times on a rare/champion pack would easily cost you more time than to just skip it, even if you were to include respeccing.
  • #31
    Quote from GT4

    Quote from Red_Panda

    Quote from GT4

    Quote from CasmX

    I agree that Jay wasn't taking into consideration an entire build dedicated to skipping monster packs when he made his statement. I have a feeling it's entirely possible for this build to work out and it's plausible that you will be able to skip monsters due to it.

    That being said, overall I don't think the build will be overly effective. The moment you get his with Nightmarish or get stuck by a waller/jailer or some kind of 'silence' ability we may not yet know about that prevents you from using your abilities, or getting caught in random traps on said lootable objects and you'll likely end up dying.

    I think you may be able to manage to get to some chests/corpses etc. but overall, you will eventually die and those deaths + time spent getting to those lootable objects successfully won't award you a net gain. It's relatively common knowledge that chests/corpses and other lootable objects are relatively inferior to killing monsters for loot and treasure. There is the resplendent chests and if you can manage to get to several of them with minimal collateral damage, it may be worth it. However, on the other hand it could actually be surprisingly effective and extremely viable. All of this is just speculation anyway.

    At any rate, +1 for coming up with a truly unique character build.


    While I agree with the rest, I don't agree with your first sentence. He said the challenge (of not dying) in Inferno lies in the fact that unlike in lower difficulties, you cannot simply skip a pack if it's too hard. If, however, there was a build that allowed to reliably skip packs, what would hinder you from quickly speccing that build, skipping the pack, and going back to your usual build?
    Remember that he was talking about progressing/clearing through Inferno, not farming Inferno. Thus losing the Nephalem Valor buff is not an argument.


    Time would hinder you.

    Doing that would be a colossal waste of time. If you can use your regular build and kill them - why the hell would you switch just to break barrels?

    lol...


    I underlined the problem in your argumentation. The situation in question was that you could not kill said pack because of their random affixes. You could just skip them and go on with farming normal enemies (and maybe even bosses) skipping everything the RNG caused to become difficult.


    Mis-read then. I thought it said "going back with" and not "going back to" ^_^
  • #32
    In the end I'm one of those who's definitely going to try all sort of tricks to 'exploit' the game mechanics - and a build as in the OP is one of the many ones to try - however if Blizzard keeps up with the quality of their other games, we'll need a more complex attempt, e.g. one that includes exploiting enemy pathing or certain affixes in combination with a certain skill and item build. That's the only sort of exploit I could see pass unnoticed.
  • #33
    Their only real escape from monster in inferno is Smoke Screen: all other defensive/mobility moves cannot protect you against high speed/warp/pull/tunnel type monsters.

    What are you going to do, Vault away? They will be on you again in a second, and you'll die because you have no way to bolster your defenses.

    DH is the most gear dependent class for this reason. Anyone planning on soloing, be warned...you won't do very well, even while starting in nightmare/hell there will be problems.

    In Diablo 2 every class couldn't even solo hell. I know this is a different game, but consider this: If a monk with perfect gear, utilizing One With Everything to maximum potential, still has a rough time in Inferno--There's not one chance in a rice field that a DH, no matter how perfect their gear is, or how well they spec, can solo it.

    I'd really like to think slows would be good enough, but if an elite group has a tunnel/warp/pull/teleport mod on them..and they get even one CC, I don't see how a class with zero passive defense boosts--besides anything but gear--will have a chance at surviving.

    PS- All the people saying, "Oh, judging off beta/Wait for game to judge." Shut up, I'm so sick of people who don't understand theorycrafting..or emulators..who still have the audacity to make comments. Do some research before posting, thanks.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

    Epicurus
  • #34
    Quote from Antirepublican

    Their only real escape from monster in inferno is Smoke Screen: all other defensive/mobility moves cannot protect you against high speed/warp/pull/tunnel type monsters.

    What are you going to do, Vault away? They will be on you again in a second, and you'll die because you have no way to bolster your defenses.

    DH is the most gear dependent class for this reason. Anyone planning on soloing, be warned...you won't do very well, even while starting in nightmare/hell there will be problems.

    In Diablo 2 every class couldn't even solo hell. I know this is a different game, but consider this: If a monk with perfect gear, utilizing One With Everything to maximum potential, still has a rough time in Inferno--There's not one chance in a rice field that a DH, no matter how perfect their gear is, or how well they spec, can solo it.

    I'd really like to think slows would be good enough, but if an elite group has a tunnel/warp/pull/teleport mod on them..and they get even one CC, I don't see how a class with zero passive defense boosts--besides anything but gear--will have a chance at surviving.

    PS- All the people saying, "Oh, judging off beta/Wait for game to judge." Shut up, I'm so sick of people who don't understand theorycrafting..or emulators..who still have the audacity to make comments. Do some research before posting, thanks.


    Discounting enemies with CC since we don't know whether enemies will have hard CC in combination with gap closers, Shadow Power actually has the capability of competing with Smoke Screen.

    Going with the -65% damage taken rune for Shadow Power and the +1 sec rune for Smoke Screen, we're looking at same duration, same cost.
    Smoke Screen: Enemies won't directly attack you for 3 seconds.
    Shadow Power: You take 65% less damage (-> 35% of normal damage) and heal for 20% of damage done for 3 seconds.

    So even worst case (no AoEs) you'll need to do 0.35/0.2=1.75 times as much damage as you'd usually take. Once you surpass that value, you'll actually heal up during Shadow Power (while with Smoke Screen you'd stay at the same amount of HP).

    So they actually have two defensive tools (which use the same resource as each other and thus are exclusive to each other). However if you compare DHs to other classes, you'll quickly notice if you're going to get hit, you'll be in serious troubles. Even Wizards have many passive and semi-passive defensive tools to prevent oneshots.
  • #35
    Quote from Antirepublican

    Their only real escape from monster in inferno is Smoke Screen: all other defensive/mobility moves cannot protect you against high speed/warp/pull/tunnel type monsters.

    What are you going to do, Vault away? They will be on you again in a second, and you'll die because you have no way to bolster your defenses.

    DH is the most gear dependent class for this reason. Anyone planning on soloing, be warned...you won't do very well, even while starting in nightmare/hell there will be problems.

    In Diablo 2 every class couldn't even solo hell. I know this is a different game, but consider this: If a monk with perfect gear, utilizing One With Everything to maximum potential, still has a rough time in Inferno--There's not one chance in a rice field that a DH, no matter how perfect their gear is, or how well they spec, can solo it.

    I'd really like to think slows would be good enough, but if an elite group has a tunnel/warp/pull/teleport mod on them..and they get even one CC, I don't see how a class with zero passive defense boosts--besides anything but gear--will have a chance at surviving.

    PS- All the people saying, "Oh, judging off beta/Wait for game to judge." Shut up, I'm so sick of people who don't understand theorycrafting..or emulators..who still have the audacity to make comments. Do some research before posting, thanks.


    You so tuff, oniichan.
  • #36
    Maybe "true sight" or whatnot, where a mob can see you is going to be a prefix?!?!
    Yeah, i picture it now! Dem zombies prancing around with night vision goggles, solid snake style!

    ...if this is possible to skip content like this, it will get a hotfix later...
  • #37
    What I find really interesting in this topic how night vision goggles always come up. If you're trying to argue with RP here, why would you need anything like that?
    Smoke Screen is basically the DH throwing a Smoke Bomb and hiding inside of it. That may confuse a stupid enemy but from a RP PoV it would make sense for a huge, insanely skilled and extremely powerful enemy such as in Inferno to simply hit you through that smoke.
    If it's big enough, it'll simply cleave through the whole Smoke Sceen. If not, it may still feel/hear you or whatever and know where to hit.
    Some of the monsters in this game are 10 meters high demons straight from hell. They summon other monsters and throw Fireballs and whatnot towards the player. Do you really think they'd be impressed by a dull Smoke Screen?

    tl;dr: If you were to argue by RP, Blizzard could fit almost anything into the game somehow.
  • #38
    Quote from Antirepublican

    In Diablo 2 every class couldn't even solo hell. I know this is a different game, but consider this: If a monk with perfect gear, utilizing One With Everything to maximum potential, still has a rough time in Inferno--There's not one chance in a rice field that a DH, no matter how perfect their gear is, or how well they spec, can solo it.


    That made me laugh...
    Diablo 2 Hell can be soloed by EVERY CLASS, even in single player, /players 8, HC mode, and with different builds. That is a fact.
  • #39
    Quote from Antirepublican

    In Diablo 2 every class couldn't even solo hell. I know this is a different game, but consider this: If a monk with perfect gear, utilizing One With Everything to maximum potential, still has a rough time in Inferno--There's not one chance in a rice field that a DH, no matter how perfect their gear is, or how well they spec, can solo it.



    Assassin - Kick sins destroyed the game. With one of the highest single target damage, able to use plenty of defensive gear, these guys could kill any monster in the game, period. No exception. Trap sins decimate the game. Arguably the best farmers(I'll argue it > :o)

    Paladin- lol.

    Sorc - Again, lol.

    Necromancer - These guys can beat the entire game, in HC, naked, with the starting weapon. It's been done.

    Amazon - Entire game could be beat with no gear over level 20. in best possible gear, could do the highest damage in a single hit - only class that I've seen that could kill ANY monster, through shear damage, and not using crushing blow, bleeds, or anything of the like.

    Druids - Highest poison damage in the game, could kill almost anything not poison immune in 1 shot. (I think the highest I've seen this was over 2 million damage). Hurricane druids were nearly immortal. Wolf, Bear, Doesn't matter. These guys were powerhouses.

    Barbarian - Only trouble with these guys is act 4 - as long as you paid attention, it wasn't impossible. whirlwind ftw.

    Every class could not only beat the game, but downright embarrass it. Ever seen a fully geared sorc, or hammerdin? With proper setups, they could tank even the hardest enemies in the game indefinitely, even at 8p. Lightning sorc could break all immunities except 2 mobs - one is an immobile sphere, the other is a rare out-of-act enemy who's lightning enchanted. All classes COULD beat the game, even without best gear. All classes could become practically invulnerable with capped DR, 95% all resists, and any absorbs(not something hard to reach - might cost you 10 HRs at best, maybe 10 hours of farming).

    As for topic, I've been debating between DH and WD, I think this might have sold me on DH though. It sounds like a solid way to handle early chest farming. :D
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