DPS Theorycrafting

  • #1
    Time for some math! :D

    I'm trying to compare Monks to Demon Hunters. Their resource generation is very similar and I was wondering, who would do better. In the end it will be a nice spreadsheet, where you can set everything up and see for yourself.

    For now I need a little bit of your feedback. Did I do something wrong in my calculations here?

    Basics
    APS = weaponAps * (1+dualwieldBonus) * (1+itemBonus) * (1+comboBonus)
    [comboBonus only applies to monk's combo/generator attacks]
    Example: 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.2

    Speed = 1 / APS

    Resources per second = resourcesPerAttack * APS

    Time until 100 resource generated = 100 / resourcesPerSecond

    Generator damage
    Damage = weaponDamage * APS * skillModifier * timeUntil100
    [speed or APS?]
    Example: 500 * 0.7 * 0.95* 11

    Spender damage
    Time to use 100 resources = (100 / skillCost) * speed

    Damage = weaponDamage * APS * skillModifier * timeToUse100
    [speed or APS?]
    Example: 500 * 0.7 * 3.75* 4

    DPS
    DPS = ( damageGenerator + damageSpender ) / ( timeUntil100 + timeToUse100 )
  • #2
    The only thing is that Demon Hunters regen their resources even when not attacking. They can also generate their resource without actually hitting a target and simply shoot at the air.

    I don't know how that affects a direct comparison like you're thinking of. I guess since Monks are balanced around that it doesn't matter.

    Just a thought.
  • #3
    Quote from Glowyrm

    The only thing is that Demon Hunters regen their resources even when not attacking. They can also generate their resource without actually hitting a target and simply shoot at the air.

    I don't know how that affects a direct comparison like you're thinking of. I guess since Monks are balanced around that it doesn't matter.

    That is stuff we can consider after the damage calculation itself is correct. :)
  • #4
    Quote from dr_AllCOM3

    Time for some math! :D

    I'm trying to compare Monks to Demon Hunters. Their resource generation is very similar and I was wondering, who would do better. In the end it will be a nice spreadsheet, where you can set everything up and see for yourself.

    For now I need a little bit of your feedback. Did I do something wrong in my calculations here?

    Basics
    APS = weaponAps * (1+dualwieldBonus) * (1+itemBonus) * (1+comboBonus)
    [comboBonus only applies to monk's combo/generator attacks]
    Example: 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.2

    Speed = 1 / APS

    Resources per second = resourcesPerAttack * APS

    Time until 100 resource generated = 100 / resourcesPerSecond

    Generator damage
    Damage = weaponDamage * APS * skillModifier * timeUntil100
    [speed or APS?]
    Example: 500 * 0.7 * 0.95* 11

    Spender damage
    Time to use 100 resources = (100 / skillCost) * speed

    Damage = weaponDamage * APS * skillModifier * timeToUse100
    [speed or APS?]
    Example: 500 * 0.7 * 3.75* 4

    DPS
    DPS = ( damageGenerator + damageSpender ) / ( timeUntil100 + timeToUse100 )



    APS = weapon APS x weapon aps bonus x ( item aps bonus + other aps bonus like shrine...) x dual wield bonus (15%aps)
    keep the comas even if the game rounds do 2 digits...
    if dual wielding you have do calulate each weapon aps seperatly...

    resource per sec ... for DH is passiv regen 4 per sec + item bonus

    dps speadsheet would be very complex o.O
  • #5
    Quote from nebenhand
    dps speadsheet would be very complex o.O

    Nah. I'm a game balancer, I do that every day.
  • #6
    Quote from Glowyrm

    The only thing is that Demon Hunters regen their resources even when not attacking. They can also generate their resource without actually hitting a target and simply shoot at the air.

    I don't know how that affects a direct comparison like you're thinking of. I guess since Monks are balanced around that it doesn't matter.

    Just a thought.


    All you have to do is consider an effective cost to fix that.

    If you shoot 2x per second and regen 8 hatred/sec then you simply reduce the cost of each shot by 4.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

    Epicurus
  • #7
    Looks okay if you were just to compare DH and Monk - if you also want to compare different weapon combinations, you'd need to include the mechanics for DWing (alternative attacks) if those weapons weren't identical speed and/or DPS.

    As for the hatred generation it doesn't make much sense to calculate it into the attacks as long as you have AS as a variable - it's just unnecessarily complex. Just change the formulas themselves for DHs:
    timeUntil100 = 100 / (resourcesPerGenerator * APS + 4)
    timeToUse100 = 100 / (skillCost * APS - 4)

    If you put them like this, they also have a similar structure unlike the ones you used. You basically used 1/APS for timeUntil100 and Speed for timeToUse100, they're the same but it can get confusing if you use different ones.

    Edit: To clarify, your calculations are absolutely correct as you posted them, however as you're asking [speed or APS?] yourself, it'd make a lot of sense to just stay with one of those since they're just the inverses of each other and since APS is usually easier to work with (and the stat you actually find ingame), I'd use that one.
  • #8
    A couple of things you'll want to consider that i don't see baked into the formula yet:

    -Abilities that automatically generate resources over time (I.E. Chant of Resonance for the Monk) or randomly (I.E. Aganist all Odds rune on the Retribution Mantra for the Monk)

    -Gear with resource generation stats.

    -The demon hunter can generate damage from the discipline resource which does not show up in hate generation or spending, but is critical to the potential of the class.

    -Lastly, there will be very few "stand and deliver" fights where you can just hang out for a while and execute attack rotations like you would in an MMO. So, while an interesting excercise for boss fights, it falls apart when factoring in multi-target efficiency without an infinitely more complex equation.



    None of that is meant to discourage your efforts. I have a deep and abiding love for theorycrafters, and I assume in the end you or someone else like you will come up with a very robust tool.
    I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
  • #9
    Thanks a lot!

    - Resource generation that is not tied to attacks is handled somewhere else.
    - Hatred from disc is nice in theory, but I'd rather have some disc left over for a quick Vault (or Mark of Death, your only group skill).
    - Of course you have to take any numbers with a HUGE amount of common sense. There will be a lot of movement and keeping yourself alive in inferno. AoE's are a totally different story. It's more for stuff like DW vs 2h and other basic stuff.


    I don't really want to release my DPS calculator :D. Some builds of some classes are way too good, others are really bad. Blizzard didn't balance very well.
  • #10
    Quote from dr_AllCOM3

    Thanks a lot.

    I don't really want to release my DPS calculator :D. Some builds of some classes are way too good, others are really bad. Blizzard didn't balance very well.


    I don't think it's as clear-cut as you can calculate right now. You do not know max level stats yet and there's also tons of abilities which actually provide extra damage in an odd way (besides the obvious overall damage buffs).

    You also have to remember this is not WoW. Skills are not guaranteed to hit and you're not guaranteed to be able to just spend 100% of time attacking with every build.

    Personally however I feel the Demon Hunter could be lacking at high level since there's not much synergy going on between skills and attributes when compared to other classes. You neither have as many % bonuses through passives and buff abilities as other classes have nor do you have abilities that scale any better than linearly with any stat.

    That's just my gut feeling though and even though it's always been true in the past, I really hope I'm wrong this time.

    Edit: As for your edit, if you want to calculate stuff like DW vs 2h you really need to know exact high level stats, for example in the open beta 2h weapons are far ahead in overall efficiency... until you get some +2-4 damage rings which boost DW dps by a lot more than 2h DPS. And I'm not in the low percentages here, I'm talking about +30% total DPS per ring (vendor bought by the way) even though I was using 18.5+ DPS 1h crossbows which were fairly close to maxed.

    I'll also write my own spreadsheet (or simulator if I come into any weird behavior such as Flurry back in WoW) once things are settled a bit and I know which stats are actually on high level items (it's not even so much about how much of the stats but mostly about which stats they kept and which stats they scrapped completely).
  • #11
    I don't know the stats, but we can assume that every class will have comparable stats in the end.

    Actually the worst part about the Demon Hunter are his almost non-existant group skills. You are pretty much required to take Mark of Death (Valley of Death).
    You can pull off an AoE-Stun build with Grenades, Vault, Elemental, FoK and maybe RoV.
  • #12
    Quote from dr_AllCOM3

    I don't know the stats, but we can assume that every class will have comparable stats in the end.

    Actually the worst part about the Demon Hunter are his almost non-existant group skills. You are pretty much required to take Mark of Death (Valley of Death).
    You can pull off an AoE-Stun build with Grenades, Vault, Elemental, FoK and maybe RoV.


    Well, personally I find the DH-only stats you can see in the beta lacking compared to other classes' stats.
    +Arcane Power on crits scales so much better with all sorts of stats than e.g. +hatred/sec does.

    Just by the way, how are you calculating Hungering Arrow? After the open beta I'm not 100% sure but the pierces seem to actually mean it'll hit the same target again. Using that I arrived at 177% for the unruned variant and e.g. 230% for the Puncturing Arrow glyph. Assuming the rune works multiplicatively, that results in 284% for the Devouring Arrow glyph.
  • #13
    Quote from GT4
    Just by the way, how are you calculating Hungering Arrow? After the open beta I'm not 100% sure but the pierces seem to actually mean it'll hit the same target again. Using that I arrived at 177% for the unruned variant and e.g. 230% for the Puncturing Arrow glyph. Assuming the rune works multiplicatively, that results in 284% for the Devouring Arrow glyph.

    Hungering Arrow does 115% damage baseline. With the rune you have a 50% chance to do double damage. So it's:
    damage * 1.15 * 1.5 = damage * 1.725

    Btw, I forgot the rune effect. HA+Impale does ok single target damage and you can fire all the time, if you use Vault.

    Chakram looks like a very cost effective AoE skill.

    But a DW crit mass-stun build seems to be very tempting for inferno. The Impale stun already works very well on the SK.
    http://us.battle.net...#URhdj!Ye!YYYbY
    Does Mark of Death (Mortal Enemy) work on AoE attacks? Marking a pack of elites could be nice.
  • #14
    Quote from dr_AllCOM3

    Quote from GT4
    Just by the way, how are you calculating Hungering Arrow? After the open beta I'm not 100% sure but the pierces seem to actually mean it'll hit the same target again. Using that I arrived at 177% for the unruned variant and e.g. 230% for the Puncturing Arrow glyph. Assuming the rune works multiplicatively, that results in 284% for the Devouring Arrow glyph.

    Hungering Arrow does 115% damage baseline. With the rune you have a 50% chance to do double damage. So it's:
    damage * 1.15 * 1.5 = damage * 1.725

    Btw, I forgot the rune effect. HA+Impale does ok single target damage and you can fire all the time, if you use Vault.

    Chakram looks like a very cost effective AoE skill.

    But a DW crit mass-stun build seems to be very tempting for inferno. The Impale stun already works very well on the SK.
    http://us.battle.net...#URhdj!Ye!YYYbY
    Does Mark of Death (Mortal Enemy) work on AoE attacks? Marking a pack of elites could be nice.


    Ahh no, thats not even remotely close to how hungering arrow works....

    This one is correct as far as I know.
    http://www.diablofans.com/topic/37730-n-depth-look-at-hungering-arrow/


    I guess its a good thing you aren't sharing that dps calculator, cuz I'd hate to have to fix it.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

    Epicurus
  • #15
    Ah yes, it can pierce multiple times.

    Would make no sense to release something at this point anyway. The usability is horrible.
  • #16
    Quote from Antirepublican

    Quote from dr_AllCOM3

    Quote from GT4
    Just by the way, how are you calculating Hungering Arrow? After the open beta I'm not 100% sure but the pierces seem to actually mean it'll hit the same target again. Using that I arrived at 177% for the unruned variant and e.g. 230% for the Puncturing Arrow glyph. Assuming the rune works multiplicatively, that results in 284% for the Devouring Arrow glyph.

    Hungering Arrow does 115% damage baseline. With the rune you have a 50% chance to do double damage. So it's:
    damage * 1.15 * 1.5 = damage * 1.725

    Btw, I forgot the rune effect. HA+Impale does ok single target damage and you can fire all the time, if you use Vault.

    Chakram looks like a very cost effective AoE skill.

    But a DW crit mass-stun build seems to be very tempting for inferno. The Impale stun already works very well on the SK.
    http://us.battle.net...#URhdj!Ye!YYYbY
    Does Mark of Death (Mortal Enemy) work on AoE attacks? Marking a pack of elites could be nice.


    Ahh no, thats not even remotely close to how hungering arrow works....

    This one is correct as far as I know.
    http://www.diablofan...ungering-arrow/


    I guess its a good thing you aren't sharing that dps calculator, cuz I'd hate to have to fix it.


    The Standard/Puncturing calculations in that thread match my calculations but the Devouring doesn't... let's take a look.
    Edit: Well, the thread autor just assumes the rune to work differently than I assume it to work like. We'll see when it's released.

    I also looked through other classes' single target ability generators and found Magic Missiles to have a 70% chance to pierce when runed with 110% base damage. If it works similarily to Hungering Arrow, that'd actually result in 367% weapon damage for a spammable generator. If you add buffs such as Magic Weapon, that'd easily result in more generator DPS than any DH rotation imaginable.
  • #17
    Magic Missiles doesn't chase the targets though. If they are not aligned perfectly, or if there is only 1 target, it will only hit once, whereas Hungering Arrow can hit targets in any position, and even the same target multiple times.
    Come to think of it, Hungering Arrow does seem kind of overpowered.. 230% average damage, generates hatred, and you can move between shots, while Rapid Fire only does 228%, spends hatred, and requires you to stand still..
  • #18
    Quote from kazimbr

    Magic Missiles doesn't chase the targets though. If they are not aligned perfectly, or if there is only 1 target, it will only hit once, whereas Hungering Arrow can hit targets in any position, and even the same target multiple times.
    Come to think of it, Hungering Arrow does seem kind of overpowered.. 230% average damage, generates hatred, and you can move between shots, while Rapid Fire only does 228%, spends hatred, and requires you to stand still..


    230% if runed only.
    Take the Fire Support rune for Rapid Fire and you're looking at an additional 105%/second that doesn't scale with AS though.
  • #19
    The grenadier + ballistics passives seems to be pretty sick DPS-wise.
    Grenades (Tinkerer) generating 8 hatred/shot, cluster arrow (Shooting stars) dealing 3*175*1.5 = 782.5% for 40 hatred.
    With bat companion for 3 passive hatred regen, and a sentry (Spitfire turret) dealing 33%, and caltrops (Bait the trap) with +10%crit chance i think the DPS could get pretty insane...

    Assuming 1 attack/sec and 15 hatred regen/sec it would be something like this (very roughly calculated):
    (95%*X+33%+782.5%/2.66)*1.1 = 360%+104.5%*X = at least 464.5%/sec
    (X being number of monsters hit by grenades)

    This is of course assuming sentry is up, and that the DH is standing in caltrops. This shouldn't be hard to achieve most of the time though.

    edited: calcs
  • #20
    Quote from kazimbr

    Magic Missiles doesn't chase the targets though. If they are not aligned perfectly, or if there is only 1 target, it will only hit once, whereas Hungering Arrow can hit targets in any position, and even the same target multiple times.
    Come to think of it, Hungering Arrow does seem kind of overpowered.. 230% average damage, generates hatred, and you can move between shots, while Rapid Fire only does 228%, spends hatred, and requires you to stand still..


    When there's 4+ enemies, Entangling Shot with Chain Gang rune would have 300% av. dam.
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