Shadow Power vs Wrath of the Berserker

  • #21
    1 class that is ranged, with 2 resource systems, and one that is melee with 1, all three resource systems are different... and you want to talk about balance when you havent even played the game to inferno, or PvP'd and you want to discuss balance with no experience with the game? On top of that, most numbers are placeholders, and the placeholders change quite often?

    kkkkkkkkkaaaaaay. Waste of time.
    "...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    shall be my brother..."
  • #22
    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    1 class that is ranged, with 2 resource systems, and one that is melee with 1, all three resource systems are different... and you want to talk about balance when you havent even played the game to inferno, or PvP'd and you want to discuss balance with no experience with the game? On top of that, most numbers are placeholders, and the placeholders change quite often?

    kkkkkkkkkaaaaaay. Waste of time.


    As I said to a previous retard: what are we to discuss if we're not discussing the current material? 80% of the threads in this forum are based on placeholders etc. Placeholders should by the way still be proportional to one and eachother. For instance, arcane missile and hungering arrow should do about the same amount of damage (as they are currently doing).

    The point you raised about hatred - discipline for demon hunter and fury alone for barbarian is valid, but it's not even close enough to make the spells balanced. One could even reverse that argument:

    Fury regenerates fast and a barbarian will easily be able to sustain WotB 24/7 if he wishes to do so. Shadow Power can be sustained for 8 seconds. If one wishes to use Shadow Power for a longer duration than that, he or she has to use particular runes, items or talents.

    Not to mention that WotB has about ~3 times as good stats and requires 50% of the fury pool, while shadow power requires 66% of the discipline pool.
  • #23
    Quote from Sumsarr

    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    "I've played diablo 2 pvp competitive and a ton of other strategy games such as heroes and newerth etc, and I know what I'm talking about when I'm stating something is REALLY unbalanced here. Either Shadow Power requires a buff or WotB a nerf."

    ^ full derp


    You've obviously never compeated in Diablo 2 since you are not aware that the competitions are far from always are directly PVP. There were Iron man and ladder contests etc.

    Stop behaving like an idiot.

    Quote from italofoca

    Unless you're a game designer you kno nothing about balance.


    This is a matter of math.

    Even so, the game designers rarely are good at balancing their games. They make wonderful worlds, but rarely balanced ones.

    For instance, it took the game designers more than a year to release that wind fury could proc on wind fury in world of warcraft and release a chain reaction. They also did not realise a paladin could one shot onyxia at level 60. The community on the other hand, noticed these problems within the first week of release.

    If I'm wrong in my math somewhere or missing out a valid point, please raise it. As it is now you're no smarter than christians saying "if you're not god, you cannot criticise his work."


    I agree... you are acting like a tool. You base balance strictly on math (DPS vs life). It sounds to me like your belief in balance is akin to Warcraft 2 (both races are exactly the same with same place styles and same units stats... even the spells are basically the same)... whereas diablo 3 is more like starcraft 2 (all 3 races play different... have different styles and stats).

    Balance is not always based on math... For example:
    • Barbarian = Melee = Has to be in your face. (If not in melee range when activated... the skill is wasted)
    • Demon Hunter = ranged... can shoot, run, shoot, run.
    • Barbarian = Fury based = This costs a resource that doesn't naturally regen (unless you blow a passive on it)... in fact it degenerates.
    • Demon Hunter = Discipline = A secondary resource. The demon hunter can still hatred spam while out of discipline. Additionally, Discipline regenerates naturally.. and has additional ways to regenerate.
    • MOST IMPORTANTLY: THIS IS NOT A PVP GAME. Do not base a skills worth by comparing it directly against a different class' skill. That's akin to complaining that a pound of gold isn't equal to a pound of silver.
  • #24
    Quote from Sumsarr

    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    1 class that is ranged, with 2 resource systems, and one that is melee with 1, all three resource systems are different... and you want to talk about balance when you havent even played the game to inferno, or PvP'd and you want to discuss balance with no experience with the game? On top of that, most numbers are placeholders, and the placeholders change quite often?

    kkkkkkkkkaaaaaay. Waste of time.


    As I said to a previous retard: what are we to discuss if we're not discussing the current material? 80% of the threads in this forum are based on placeholders etc. Placeholders should by the way still be proportional to one and eachother. For instance, arcane missile and hungering arrow should do about the same amount of damage (as they are currently doing).

    The point you raised about hatred - discipline for demon hunter and fury alone for barbarian is valid, but it's not even close enough to make the spells balanced. One could even reverse that argument:

    Fury regenerates fast and a barbarian will easily be able to sustain WotB 24/7 if he wishes to do so. Shadow Power can be sustained for 8 seconds. If one wishes to use Shadow Power for a longer duration than that, he or she has to use particular runes, items or talents.

    Not to mention that WotB has about ~3 times as good stats and requires 50% of the fury pool, while shadow power requires 66% of the discipline pool.


    and using discipline has no effect on the DH using hatred, which is where most of their dmg comes from.

    wotb will cut the barbs only damage resource almost in half. Shadow power leaves the DH Primary damage resource in one piece?

    You're trying to compare things that have no basis of comparison, because they are so different from each other..

    And call more people retards on this site, you will get thrown out so fast. The mod community doesnt tolerate that kinda shit.
    "...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    shall be my brother..."
  • #25
    Everyone calm down and be civil please.
  • #26
    Quote from Sabvre

    I agree... you are acting like a tool. You base balance strictly on math (DPS vs life). It sounds to me like your belief in balance is akin to Warcraft 2 (both races are exactly the same with same place styles and same units stats... even the spells are basically the same)... whereas diablo 3 is more like starcraft 2 (all 3 races play different... have different styles and stats).

    Balance is not always based on math... For example:
    • Barbarian = Melee = Has to be in your face. (If not in melee range when activated... the skill is wasted)
    • Demon Hunter = ranged... can shoot, run, shoot, run.
    • Barbarian = Fury based = This costs a resource that doesn't naturally regen (unless you blow a passive on it)... in fact it degenerates.
    • Demon Hunter = Discipline = A secondary resource. The demon hunter can still hatred spam while out of discipline. Additionally, Discipline regenerates naturally.. and has additional ways to regenerate.
    • MOST IMPORTANTLY: THIS IS NOT A PVP GAME. Do not base a skills worth by comparing it directly against a different class' skill. That's akin to complaining that a pound of gold isn't equal to a pound of silver.


    Interesting that you mention spells shouldn't be compared, but your whole post has it's foundation built on a comparisons between the classes.

    Yes, the barbarians spell WotB can be wasted if he is not in melee range. However, I think it is safe to safe that the Demon Hunter has more problems than the barbarian. She actually has to hit projectiles. The barbarian will hit everything he clicks on eventually.

    You also very biased when comparing the spells. You choose to aknowledge the fact that discipline can regenerate in additional ways, but when you mention the barbarians spell he has to "blow a passive". There is, for instance, runes for WotB which makes it so that you barely need to cast it more than once. Barbarian also has talents to support his fury generation, for instance, he has a talent which makes him regenerate fury instead of degenerating it.

    You could also have, in your comparison, mentioned that the barbarian will have a lot more armor and health and will generally be way harder to kill. Should such a class really have better offensive spells?

    Once again someone mentions pvp out of the blue. I do not care about the pvp aspects, the only thing I care about is how well the characters do in proportion to one and eachother in PVE etc. It's vital for balance that the different classes have

    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    and using discipline has no effect on the DH using hatred, which is where most of their dmg comes from.

    wotb will cut the barbs only damage resource almost in half. Shadow power leaves the DH Primary damage resource in one piece?

    You're trying to compare things that have no basis of comparison, because they are so different from each other..


    If you're counting on wotb cutting the barbarians fury in half, you'll also need to take into consideration all the stats he will benefit from. It's not as if half of his fury vanished into vacuum. He could, if he so wished, easily have 45% ias, 20% dodge, 20% ms and 10% crit 24/7. The Demon hunter on the other hand, would have to use either two talents or one talent and one rune in order to sustain 30% ias for 24/7.

    Let's face it:

    WotB lasts 15 seconds, requires 50% fury and REALLY good stats.

    Shadow power lasts 8 seconds, required 66% discipline and has decent stats.

    So WotB lasts longer, costs less and is better. It does however cost fury, which is the barbarians only resource. I do, however, do not even consider it being slighty balanced as it is now.
    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    And call more people retards on this site, you will get thrown out so fast. The mod community doesnt tolerate that kinda shit.


    Retard is not an offensive word. It's a noun used to describe something or someone who is slow or hindered. For instance, I take a medication called Orudis Retard. I'm not offended by the name of my medicine - it's just a noun. If you choose to interpret the word as offensive I apologize. That does, however, only justify my statement regarding your retardation.

    If I would be banned for using medical words I would be glad to leave diablofans. I would not want to stay on a site which censor the dictionary as they choose fit.
  • #27
    Well since my public warning pretty much got ignored and this is just continuing I'll post here.

    Using the word retard is okay when it's referring to an inanimate object, because objects don't have feelings. When you call someone retarded though you're attempting to insult them. You're using the word in a derogatory way against a person. We don't allow the use of any such words to be used as a slang insult, whether they're in the dictionary or not. The point behind it was to flame and try to inflict some sort of negative effect on the other person.

    Further off-topic posts will be deleted. PM me with any questions.

    Anyways, cut out the name calling and get back to debating. ;)
  • #29
    LOL, modpwnd. People gotta learn to feel the love, yo.

    I don't think the current situation is imba at all. Keep in mind that the two abilities aren't meant to be equivalent to one another. Each class has its own unique set of skills. If there happen to be similarities between certain skills across classes, that's because some mechanics are relevant/useful/fun in all of those classes, not because the skill got cloned across with a different animation.

    I mean, it's not like the devs said "alright, we have these twenty skills that we need to copy/paste onto each class and then disguise so that the classes seem varied". Presumably they will have brainstormed each class individually, coming up with a bunch of mechanics that fit the archetype, have utility and create interesting gameplay when used in synergy.

    So, sure, some of the classes have a damage buff. Some have more than one. But to say that this damage buff from the DH is underpowered because the Barb has this more powerful buff is missing the point. If each of the skills within one class had a direct analogue in every other class then there'd be no such thing as classes - it'd just be the same character in different clothes. You have to compare builds holistically, and from what I've seen the DH actually has some of the highest DPS in the beta. Ergo, the Barb probably deserves a better damage buff spell, whereas the DH should do just fine with Shadow Power.
  • #30
    Quote from Argency

    LOL, modpwnd. People gotta learn to feel the love, yo.

    I don't think the current situation is imba at all. Keep in mind that the two abilities aren't meant to be equivalent to one another. Each class has its own unique set of skills. If there happen to be similarities between certain skills across classes, that's because some mechanics are relevant/useful/fun in all of those classes, not because the skill got cloned across with a different animation.

    I mean, it's not like the devs said "alright, we have these twenty skills that we need to copy/paste onto each class and then disguise so that the classes seem varied". Presumably they will have brainstormed each class individually, coming up with a bunch of mechanics that fit the archetype, have utility and create interesting gameplay when used in synergy.

    So, sure, some of the classes have a damage buff. Some have more than one. But to say that this damage buff from the DH is underpowered because the Barb has this more powerful buff is missing the point. If each of the skills within one class had a direct analogue in every other class then there'd be no such thing as classes - it'd just be the same character in different clothes. You have to compare builds holistically, and from what I've seen the DH actually has some of the highest DPS in the beta. Ergo, the Barb probably deserves a better damage buff spell, whereas the DH should do just fine with Shadow Power.


    If your post is correct -- every barb HAS to pick up WotB in order to be able to compeat with the demon hunter.

    But you're also wrong, because the stats do need to be balanced not only within the talent trees, but also between the different classes. For instance, barbarians spell could give 30% ias and 30% ms while shadow power could give 20% ias 40% dodge. However, as it is now, WotB gives EVERYTHING shadow power does and a WHOLE LOT MORE.

    And why does barbarian need to do as much damage as the demon hunter? Isn't it enough having a whole lot more armor and health?
    I don't see demon hunter having spells giving more armor than barbarian. Why does barbarian need spell giving more damage than deomn hunter?
  • #31
    Quote from Sumsarr

    But you're also wrong, because the stats do need to be balanced not only within the talent trees, but also between the different classes. For instance, barbarians spell could give 30% ias and 30% ms while shadow power could give 20% ias 40% dodge. However, as it is now, WotB gives EVERYTHING shadow power does and a WHOLE LOT MORE.


    I'm not sure that your rebuttals meet my argument. I said that you can't compare two individual spells between the classes, but should compare the builds as a whole, since having one stronger skill doesn't mean the barb class is a stronger class. Maybe if we could all agree on an optimal build for both DH and Barb, and you could show that the Barb's was significantly OP due to the shadowpower/wotb imba then I could agree with you. Can't see that happening though since optimal builds aren't really a thing and also the DH is a strong character. That's why they don't need a massive buff like wotb.
  • #32
    Again you can't compare 2 different skills on different characters and make conclusions on that whats is OP and what is not. There are so many variables and you blindly comparing two different skills. One of them is that shadow power uses totally different resource - discipline which is not main damage resource. You can easily keep shadow power all the time with correct skill/runestone composition and do not sacrifice your damage. Barb, on the other hand, needs half of his maximum fury to use WotB which means he does not have fury to use other strong hitting attacks. WotB is nearly 2 seismic slams, which do huge AoE damage.

    And then Fury does not generate by itself, that means if you are out of the battle for too long and you have 0 fury (quite common) then you can't just cast WotB and go kill stuff. You need to generate that 50 fury and only then you cast and then you need to generate more fury to use strong attacks. Shadow power does not really impact your damage dealing capabilities. Have you taken that in mind? No, you just blindly make comparisons.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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