Just throwing this in the discussion - IIRC the UE set works better (at least theoretically) while dual wielding/using a fast weapon; forgive me if i am remebering outdated informations.
Would dualwield/1h+quiver be worse (cubing buriza) than a 2h weapon? We lose the quiver bonus (especially Cirri's) but we can get stuff like Calamity that gives a good damage buff also for party.
Yes, at least for the version of the build focusing on Hungering Arrow. The reason for this is the fact that we can output much higher damage with a two handed weapon. At least, that's my observations. Because of the way the skill works, turning high damage into MUCH higher damage is better than turning low damage into medium damage at a faster rate. If that makes sense.
Feel free to test it, and if you can, prove me wrong. I'm not the end all say all on this build. I've lost most interest in Diablo 3 at the moment, despite the new patch and Season 4 being right around the corner. I'd love to see someone else take ownership of this build and test it, pushing it to new heights.
I've actually been interested in this build for a while now but I'm currently on vacation and can't test it until I get back on the 18th. Hopefully the PTR will be up for a while longer so I can test some things before season 4 starts.
I do do however agree on the crossbow thing for this build. Lower attack speed and higher damage would benefit this build because it uses the new belt for Demon Hunters that boosts the attack speed of Generators by 30%. This makes up for the speed loss when equipping a 2H crossbow. This is a theory obviously, but I see no reason as to why it wouldn't be proven true.
I cannot wait to get home and test out these builds. Demon Hunter looks very fun and promising for season 4. There are so many builds and strategies that are opened with the introduction of Kanai'a Cube and I think lots more will reveal themselves as the season progresses. They always do. Builds change, new things are discovered, and the meta is always evolving. I want to see what will happen with the Demon Hunter.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The hardest thing in this world, is to live in it.
When I take the perfect build link at the top of this post, clone the build and swap the xbow for a Calamity with the same specs, I get the following.
Top image is the one with Calamity at 2,19 aps.
Bottom image is the original one at 1,51 aps.
Both still have same Area damage ect, I changed nothing.
The below image shows the numbers I see when I hover over the Hungering arrow skill.
When we do some calculations with these numbers I get the following:
Calamity build:
756 K dmg, 2,67 aps = 2018,52 K (non pierce, dps)
756 K (hit 1)
1285,2 K (pierce 1)
2184,84 K (pierce 2)
3714,228 K (pierce 3)
-------------------------- +
8779,428 K
8779,428 K * 2,67 = 23441,07 K dps
Original build:
955 K dmg, 1,84 aps = 1757,2 K (non pierce, dps)
955 K (hit 1)
1623,5 K (pierce 1)
2759,95 K (pierce 2)
4691,915 K (pierce 3)
-------------------------- +
10030,365 K
10030,365 K * 1,84 = 18455,87 K dps
This calculation does not take Area damage into account, but that wil not change the numers.
(Hitting a higher area damage vs. hitting lower area damage but more hits)
I dont know how accurate these numbers from the planner are but it shows more damage for calamity and ofcourse your party will do more damage aswell.
Edit:
The diablo planner does not take into account the +30% attack speed from Hunters Wrath.
To mimic this I changed the +20% attack speed on the quiver to +50%.
This gives the Calamity build 2,67 aps and the original build 1,84 aps.
The DH god Wudijo did indeed conclude that each pierce of Hungering Arrow applies a stack of Bane of the Stricken in one of this 2.3 videos.
I'm not interested in running these tests, but I'm sure there is someone who will make it happen and we will find the most viable version of the build.
Are you sure Cull is just additive? because the diablo planner shows it as multiplicative.
You can see this when you hover over your skills when using the planner.
All in all its alot of damage to make up, it would be better to keep bane of the trapped and cull the weak, and somehow find a way to chill them with some legendary or something.
If there's an effective way to apply an effect that allows BotT and Cull to work that doesn't cost a gem slot (like Iceblink does) that would of course be the best option.
From PTR testing, BoTS seems on BoTT level as per gem strenght, so i suppose that BoTT + BoTS will be the must go combo.
Options for 3rd gem:
- Iceblink: great way to proc BoTT/CotW especially in solo; 10% crit is a good bonus but loses power the more you're geared and you have other ways to proc the slow/cc (follower, party)
- Zei: overall a good gem, requires kiting in solo and some kind of CC, but works wonders in aprty when you have a support guy pulling people.
- Simplicty: direct boost to main source of damage, plus healing. Overall a good damage boost.ù
I don't knwo which one is the better, didn't do math. But at least we have the options.
Ok, that sounds right - i'll prolly run iceblink for starters since it's a defnitie damage increase, unless i run with a CC man around. Looks also a better option for solo because of CC. I'll level up Zei in any case.
As for defensive gems(if needed) should we go with GIzzard or are there better options around?
EDIT: i'll try also to get a decent dual wield setup, though we don't have a weapon required for this build - we can eiher run Buriza and cube Calamity for the special or the opposite to get the exact same benefits; as for the caluclations above 1h seems to perform better, but more tests need to be done.
The problem about dropping MS is that you need another spender to proc F/R buffs.
About Broken Promises: looks good on paper but actually math shows a maximum 60-ish% uptime, which is still dominated by RNG. If you want to truly use it, it's best to remove all CC from gear and reoll it to AS to maximize the procs.
Still, i don't think it pairs with Depth Diggers (100%dmg is a lot) and for sure it doesn't stand a chance against F/R - cubing BP means no RoRG.
Another "issue" i have is that Cirri is not stellar even for this build, but we don't actually have a weapon to pair with Calamity for dualwield dreamers. Very likely if you're going for a quiver dead Man's Legacy looks just better because even if the focus is not on MS making it dealing double damage is good since it still gets the bonus from UE and cold damage. Not at Arsenal level for sure but still worth considering.
Absolutely not. A lot of people have this question about the discipline damage. Some say that with CoE (effectively +50% more damage for DH) and Manald, it equals higher damage bonuses than Focus and Restraint. Some argue that Manald Heal + Stone of Jordan is competitive with Focus+Restraint, but it's entirely not. The +Disc rings give 'additive' damage, and the Focus and Restaint combo gives 'multiplicative' damage.
What this means is that the +Disc would give: (81+10+11)*15 = 1530% Damage.
You can see why Focus and Restraint combo is far better than the other rings, and this also shows why people say 'multiplicative' damage is much more powerful than 'additive' damage.
The +Disc rings give 'additive' damage, and the Focus and Restaint combo gives 'multiplicative' damage.
This - there's not even questioning about the ring combo unfortunately.Given current setups, i expect a lot of builds cubing RoRG and go F/R if they couldn't do it before.
The HA build here goes the same way for the opposite reason: we would have gone F/R anyway, we cube RoRG just to get the advantage of freeing a gear slot and use Depth Diggers, which are nice but arguably the less powerful piece of gear.
Another option: equip Hunter's Wrath, cube Depth Diggers and free the jewelry slot i case we want to use an Hellfire or immunity amulet or another ring like Broken Promises.
The new belt is a 60% damage bonus and 30% attack speed bonus. It is crucial to the build. This build is the kind of build where you need to be fully geared to make use of this build and utilize its full power.
In addition, I still don't recommend hand crossbows or dropping of the Ninth Cirri Satchel. The reason this build can do crazy damage is because its the high damage of our ancient crossbow being multiplied by the high damage bonus of the pierce, and the pierce happening at least two, if not three or four times. Prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that it's not gonna work. The most interesting thing for me to see is the change for legendary gems. I bet that's a good place for us to look to optimize this build.
Also, I'm pretty sure Buriza pierces do not apply a damage bonus to the Hungering Arrow. I could be mistaken, but the reason we use Buriza is that it gives a chance to get the pierce bonus, so we have three tries to proc the 60% chance. In addition, it gives us more AoE damage due to the single target nature of Hungering Arrow.
I just completed some tests aswell on the ptr and kinda came to the same conclusion as Zarhrezz, Bane of the stricken is indeed not viable.
But the hungering arrow build aint dead yet tough with iceblink, BotT, Simplicity its still a pretty good build.
Also tested 1-hxbow/quiver vs 1hxbow/1-hxbow.
The second xbow adds absolutely nothing (main hand being calamity) except a socket for a weapon gem and a legendary attribute.
But the attributes on the quivers are way better for this build, so a quiver seems to be the way to go.
Also wanted to test the ninth cirri value as a quiver.
I tested on Ghom with while being naked except for the ninth cirri (buriza cubed) and a low level xbow.
I found that the maximum number of hits are, 5 hits (4 pierces), due to the arrow despawning after a certain flight time.
This is when ghom is standing next to you, when he is further away you usually hit about 3/4 times.
When fighting packs you get 5 hits more often (cant really see if it hits more than that, cuz of all the numbers flying all over).
Another negative thing about hungering arrow is the fact that walls and pillars absorb the arrow, so when a mob is standing against a wall you wil only hit it once.
All in all its still a nice quiver for the build but not as nice as the theories suggest.
Devouring Arrow with the new belt and Buriza bonus on cube seems a good F/R activator + damage mitigator (new bracers) while Multishot is main damage dealer on groups. When facing a single target, Devouring becomes the prime and Multishot to activate F/R.
Basically this - following is the reasoning.
- Cirri is a good HA cenetered bonus, but Buriza giving a guaranteed 2 jumps + travel limit makes the quiver a smaller damage increase than it appears. Also, the Buriza pierces are counted "in advance" so you have a 100% - 100% - base% chance of jump.
- Buriza jumps count towards DA damage increases.
- DML is still a very good quiver because either you focus on MS or run DA, the damage increase is higher compared to Cirri. Given also the fact that we don't have any good/viable 1h xbow apart Calamity i'm just assuming that DML is the way to go until they add some other item (maybe a 1h xbow that adds an HA rune by default).
- Calamity VS Buriza: it's the same of AoE VS single target; bosses/rift guardians benefit much more from sustained damage, so Calamity should be the winner. On AoE farming MS may be the winner due to bigger burst hence Buriza should be better. Tbh, matter of preference since we can cube either of the weapons and use the other one, so we're not actually missing any bonus.
You can't actually equip the Buriza without a significant damage loss. The Buriza cannot roll discipline or be rerolled with discipline as a secondary affix. This means we cannot utilize the Buriza affix unless we Cube the weapon. Due to this, the 2.2 version of the build failed spectacularly.
You can't actually equip the Buriza without a significant damage loss. The Buriza cannot roll discipline or be rerolled with discipline as a secondary affix. This means we cannot utilize the Buriza affix unless we Cube the weapon. Due to this, the 2.2 version of the build failed spectacularly.
Didn't they change it or was it only for 1h xbows and bows? Well, given this i suppose there's not much of a choice about weapons. Calamity+DML seems to be the best option out until they add something more.
And i'm asking myself why we got a Sticky Trap weapon instead They could add stuff for current sets and leave the weapon for the next pacth when the new sets are added.
No they did change it, but the Buriza has a special "freeze" secondary affix. It cannot be rerolled. I've tried. Its not the slot, but the specific legendary that prevents discipline from being rolled onto the weapon. Otherwise the Buriza would be BiS and we'd want Calamity or another strong weapon in our cube.
Just throwing this in the discussion - IIRC the UE set works better (at least theoretically) while dual wielding/using a fast weapon; forgive me if i am remebering outdated informations.
Would dualwield/1h+quiver be worse (cubing buriza) than a 2h weapon? We lose the quiver bonus (especially Cirri's) but we can get stuff like Calamity that gives a good damage buff also for party.
Yes, at least for the version of the build focusing on Hungering Arrow. The reason for this is the fact that we can output much higher damage with a two handed weapon. At least, that's my observations. Because of the way the skill works, turning high damage into MUCH higher damage is better than turning low damage into medium damage at a faster rate. If that makes sense.
Feel free to test it, and if you can, prove me wrong. I'm not the end all say all on this build. I've lost most interest in Diablo 3 at the moment, despite the new patch and Season 4 being right around the corner. I'd love to see someone else take ownership of this build and test it, pushing it to new heights.
I've actually been interested in this build for a while now but I'm currently on vacation and can't test it until I get back on the 18th. Hopefully the PTR will be up for a while longer so I can test some things before season 4 starts.
I do do however agree on the crossbow thing for this build. Lower attack speed and higher damage would benefit this build because it uses the new belt for Demon Hunters that boosts the attack speed of Generators by 30%. This makes up for the speed loss when equipping a 2H crossbow. This is a theory obviously, but I see no reason as to why it wouldn't be proven true.
I cannot wait to get home and test out these builds. Demon Hunter looks very fun and promising for season 4. There are so many builds and strategies that are opened with the introduction of Kanai'a Cube and I think lots more will reveal themselves as the season progresses. They always do. Builds change, new things are discovered, and the meta is always evolving. I want to see what will happen with the Demon Hunter.
The hardest thing in this world, is to live in it.
When I take the perfect build link at the top of this post, clone the build and swap the xbow for a Calamity with the same specs, I get the following.
Top image is the one with Calamity at 2,19 aps.
Bottom image is the original one at 1,51 aps.
Both still have same Area damage ect, I changed nothing.
The below image shows the numbers I see when I hover over the Hungering arrow skill.
When we do some calculations with these numbers I get the following:
Calamity build:
756 K dmg, 2,67 aps = 2018,52 K (non pierce, dps)
756 K (hit 1)
1285,2 K (pierce 1)
2184,84 K (pierce 2)
3714,228 K (pierce 3)
-------------------------- +
8779,428 K
8779,428 K * 2,67 = 23441,07 K dps
Original build:
955 K dmg, 1,84 aps = 1757,2 K (non pierce, dps)
955 K (hit 1)
1623,5 K (pierce 1)
2759,95 K (pierce 2)
4691,915 K (pierce 3)
-------------------------- +
10030,365 K
10030,365 K * 1,84 = 18455,87 K dps
This calculation does not take Area damage into account, but that wil not change the numers.
(Hitting a higher area damage vs. hitting lower area damage but more hits)
I dont know how accurate these numbers from the planner are but it shows more damage for calamity and ofcourse your party will do more damage aswell.
Edit:
The diablo planner does not take into account the +30% attack speed from Hunters Wrath.
To mimic this I changed the +20% attack speed on the quiver to +50%.
This gives the Calamity build 2,67 aps and the original build 1,84 aps.
I changed my calculations to reflect this change.
The DH god Wudijo did indeed conclude that each pierce of Hungering Arrow applies a stack of Bane of the Stricken in one of this 2.3 videos.
I'm not interested in running these tests, but I'm sure there is someone who will make it happen and we will find the most viable version of the build.
Are you sure Cull is just additive? because the diablo planner shows it as multiplicative.
You can see this when you hover over your skills when using the planner.
All in all its alot of damage to make up, it would be better to keep bane of the trapped and cull the weak, and somehow find a way to chill them with some legendary or something.
From PTR testing, BoTS seems on BoTT level as per gem strenght, so i suppose that BoTT + BoTS will be the must go combo.
Options for 3rd gem:
- Iceblink: great way to proc BoTT/CotW especially in solo; 10% crit is a good bonus but loses power the more you're geared and you have other ways to proc the slow/cc (follower, party)
- Zei: overall a good gem, requires kiting in solo and some kind of CC, but works wonders in aprty when you have a support guy pulling people.
- Simplicty: direct boost to main source of damage, plus healing. Overall a good damage boost.ù
I don't knwo which one is the better, didn't do math. But at least we have the options.
Dropping Simplicity might actually be the best option, looking at it pure damage wise (I will mis that healing though ).
Simplicity lv 50 adds 50% damage.
But that damage is additive with all the +skill damage we got already.
+45% Hungering Arrow damage on gear.
+60% Hunters Wrath damage.
+100% Depth Diggers.
+50% Simplicity.
So its either have +205% skill damage or +255% skill damage with Simplicity.
When you look at it that way, the gem only adds about 25% damage.
I did not test this theory though.
Ok, that sounds right - i'll prolly run iceblink for starters since it's a defnitie damage increase, unless i run with a CC man around. Looks also a better option for solo because of CC. I'll level up Zei in any case.
As for defensive gems(if needed) should we go with GIzzard or are there better options around?
EDIT: i'll try also to get a decent dual wield setup, though we don't have a weapon required for this build - we can eiher run Buriza and cube Calamity for the special or the opposite to get the exact same benefits; as for the caluclations above 1h seems to perform better, but more tests need to be done.
I'm loving watching this guys. Go to town. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with for this build.
The problem about dropping MS is that you need another spender to proc F/R buffs.
About Broken Promises: looks good on paper but actually math shows a maximum 60-ish% uptime, which is still dominated by RNG. If you want to truly use it, it's best to remove all CC from gear and reoll it to AS to maximize the procs.
Still, i don't think it pairs with Depth Diggers (100%dmg is a lot) and for sure it doesn't stand a chance against F/R - cubing BP means no RoRG.
Another "issue" i have is that Cirri is not stellar even for this build, but we don't actually have a weapon to pair with Calamity for dualwield dreamers. Very likely if you're going for a quiver dead Man's Legacy looks just better because even if the focus is not on MS making it dealing double damage is good since it still gets the bonus from UE and cold damage. Not at Arsenal level for sure but still worth considering.
Absolutely not. A lot of people have this question about the discipline damage. Some say that with CoE (effectively +50% more damage for DH) and Manald, it equals higher damage bonuses than Focus and Restraint. Some argue that Manald Heal + Stone of Jordan is competitive with Focus+Restraint, but it's entirely not. The +Disc rings give 'additive' damage, and the Focus and Restaint combo gives 'multiplicative' damage.
What this means is that the +Disc would give: (81+10+11)*15 = 1530% Damage.
Edit: With Manald + CoE: [(81+11)*15] * 1.5 = 2070% Damage.
While F+R gives: (81*15) * 2.25 = 1215 * 2.25 = 2733.75% Damage.
You can see why Focus and Restraint combo is far better than the other rings, and this also shows why people say 'multiplicative' damage is much more powerful than 'additive' damage.
The hardest thing in this world, is to live in it.
This - there's not even questioning about the ring combo unfortunately.Given current setups, i expect a lot of builds cubing RoRG and go F/R if they couldn't do it before.
The HA build here goes the same way for the opposite reason: we would have gone F/R anyway, we cube RoRG just to get the advantage of freeing a gear slot and use Depth Diggers, which are nice but arguably the less powerful piece of gear.
Another option: equip Hunter's Wrath, cube Depth Diggers and free the jewelry slot i case we want to use an Hellfire or immunity amulet or another ring like Broken Promises.
The new belt is a 60% damage bonus and 30% attack speed bonus. It is crucial to the build. This build is the kind of build where you need to be fully geared to make use of this build and utilize its full power.
In addition, I still don't recommend hand crossbows or dropping of the Ninth Cirri Satchel. The reason this build can do crazy damage is because its the high damage of our ancient crossbow being multiplied by the high damage bonus of the pierce, and the pierce happening at least two, if not three or four times. Prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that it's not gonna work. The most interesting thing for me to see is the change for legendary gems. I bet that's a good place for us to look to optimize this build.
Also, I'm pretty sure Buriza pierces do not apply a damage bonus to the Hungering Arrow. I could be mistaken, but the reason we use Buriza is that it gives a chance to get the pierce bonus, so we have three tries to proc the 60% chance. In addition, it gives us more AoE damage due to the single target nature of Hungering Arrow.
I just completed some tests aswell on the ptr and kinda came to the same conclusion as Zarhrezz, Bane of the stricken is indeed not viable.
But the hungering arrow build aint dead yet tough with iceblink, BotT, Simplicity its still a pretty good build.
Also tested 1-hxbow/quiver vs 1hxbow/1-hxbow.
The second xbow adds absolutely nothing (main hand being calamity) except a socket for a weapon gem and a legendary attribute.
But the attributes on the quivers are way better for this build, so a quiver seems to be the way to go.
Also wanted to test the ninth cirri value as a quiver.
I tested on Ghom with while being naked except for the ninth cirri (buriza cubed) and a low level xbow.
I found that the maximum number of hits are, 5 hits (4 pierces), due to the arrow despawning after a certain flight time.
This is when ghom is standing next to you, when he is further away you usually hit about 3/4 times.
When fighting packs you get 5 hits more often (cant really see if it hits more than that, cuz of all the numbers flying all over).
Another negative thing about hungering arrow is the fact that walls and pillars absorb the arrow, so when a mob is standing against a wall you wil only hit it once.
All in all its still a nice quiver for the build but not as nice as the theories suggest.
Basically this - following is the reasoning.
- Cirri is a good HA cenetered bonus, but Buriza giving a guaranteed 2 jumps + travel limit makes the quiver a smaller damage increase than it appears. Also, the Buriza pierces are counted "in advance" so you have a 100% - 100% - base% chance of jump.
- Buriza jumps count towards DA damage increases.
- DML is still a very good quiver because either you focus on MS or run DA, the damage increase is higher compared to Cirri. Given also the fact that we don't have any good/viable 1h xbow apart Calamity i'm just assuming that DML is the way to go until they add some other item (maybe a 1h xbow that adds an HA rune by default).
- Calamity VS Buriza: it's the same of AoE VS single target; bosses/rift guardians benefit much more from sustained damage, so Calamity should be the winner. On AoE farming MS may be the winner due to bigger burst hence Buriza should be better. Tbh, matter of preference since we can cube either of the weapons and use the other one, so we're not actually missing any bonus.
You can't actually equip the Buriza without a significant damage loss. The Buriza cannot roll discipline or be rerolled with discipline as a secondary affix. This means we cannot utilize the Buriza affix unless we Cube the weapon. Due to this, the 2.2 version of the build failed spectacularly.
And i'm asking myself why we got a Sticky Trap weapon instead They could add stuff for current sets and leave the weapon for the next pacth when the new sets are added.
No they did change it, but the Buriza has a special "freeze" secondary affix. It cannot be rerolled. I've tried. Its not the slot, but the specific legendary that prevents discipline from being rolled onto the weapon. Otherwise the Buriza would be BiS and we'd want Calamity or another strong weapon in our cube.
Etrayu could be an option if you want to boost cold dmg. I was using it along with Cirri on PTR