I was looking for some answers about my questions, but I just found pieces of information on other threads. I'll explain them with 2 examples, in both cases i'm using 6p UE with a Multishot Build.
Example 1:
Let's assume I have a weapon rolled with +9 max Discipline/Dex/Socket/LoH (around 2800 dps). What should I do with it? Trying to get +12 max Discipline? or maybe get +X% Dmg to rise up to 3000 weapon dps. Since MS damage is based on my dps and also my maximum discipline, I can't tell which is better.
Example 2:
Now let's say I have a deadman legacy with +10 max Discipline/Dex/Vit/CHC/IAS/Sentry Dmg. Same question, is it better to look for MS damage instead of Sentry (which is useless btw) or to have +12 max Discipline (and keep useless sentry dmg)? More Generally, is +XX% MS Dmg better than a max roll on displine on a quiver?
1) 3 more discipline is a potential 45% more damage for your spenders and Multishot, so my gut reaction is that bumping it to 12 discipline is worth way more than than rolling a potential 10% damage.
2) I don't know what values a quiver can roll max discipline between, but since the most MS damage you can get is 15%, and that's equal to 1 more discipline... I'd say the discipline reroll is once again the way to go?
I'd be interested in other opinions, especially if I'm horribly wrong in what I'm saying, but it seems like both cases you'd want more discipline for more damage.
Watch this video and it will explain the math about "relative" damage increases.
Diablo 3: How to maximize your damage by Quin C[/header]
They won't let me put the actual video link, but this is the title. Should be easy enough to google search. The spreadsheet is in the video description seciton.
Basically the answer to your question depends on your other + damage stats.
If you are very low in the additive damage multipliers then % multishot will be better almost always
If you have some in the additive multipliers, like I would guess around 40%, then discipline will be better.
Plus discipline will "almost always" be better up until you hit some threshold or you have 0% in the additive column.
If you don;t know for sure you can download that spreadsheet and put the discipline multipliers into one of the special columns. So 15% * 10 disciline would be 150% in one of the extra fields. Then you can mod based on your actual numbers.
Why guess when you can do the math.
to respond specifically to your examples:
example 1: get plus damage. 10% on the weapon is a separate multiplier which multiplies against the total disc bonus. You can't really do better on a weapon than 10% damage.
example 2: multishot is "probably" better than +3 discipline assuming you lack multishot damage on other gear pieces. However, there is another stat you could consider. You can't get resource cost reduction on your quiver but you could consider getting hatred regen. I think it maxes at 1.5. This "might" be superior, but again it really depends. Ideally you get to have hatred regen and multishot damage and max discipline and lose the vitality and attack speed. But that isn't an option for you right now.
In the end, you are going to want maximum discipline where you can get maximum discipline. No matter what you have elsewhere, this entire build revolves around discipline. If you have to choose between discipline and % damage, choose discipline. If you have to choose between a "few discipline" and % damage, choose % damage. If you have to choose between 7 discipline and % damage, choose the increase to discipline while farming for another weapon of your choice with a % damage modifier but never take away the complete amount of discipline for % damage.
I would suggest that if you are more than 4 discipline away from the max discipline roll then always roll higher discipline. 5 discipline, as an example is 75% increased damage to your Multishot. 4 at 60% could probably be matched by 10% increased damage. At least that's what superfast in the head math tells me.
In your examples:
1) % damage without question.
2) This one is easy in my head but difficult to explain (sort of)... if you can roll through the rift while keeping max discipline the entire time then rolling the 3 discipline is FAR superior than 15% multishot damage. Heck, to be frank I can't ever think of a situation where 15% Multishot damage will ever be better than those +3 (45%) discipline. The reason is because with that 6pc bonus the 15% Multishot damage is 100% always affected by your discipline in the first place. You literally would need to be shooting your Multishot at 2 discipline in order for 15% Multishot to equal the damage increase as the 3 discpline simply because the Multishot bonus is affected by the 6pc.
You need to look at formulas in a much simpler way. All categories are multiplied together to give a final damage value. Within the categories they are added. Your goal is increase the final damage value. So if you just compare the increase in the category to the other you will get your answer. I state this because while there is a lot of information presented by the OP, it is insufficient to answer the question.
I'm going to have to use some values to make an example. So 81 is the max you can get with Discipline (assuming F/R). So at +9 to +12 on the bow the increase is 81/78=1.038 or 3.8% overall increase.
For the actual Damage on the Weapon, I'm guessing that is the Max 10%. This is a straight up multiplier to damage. So 10% is better than 2.5%. This one is easy. Go Damage. But what you should realize is that increasing a stat will be significantly less than introducing a new multiplier. In this case it's about 3 times a much.
In the case of the quiver, we are at +10 to +12, so using 81 again as our max. The increase is 81/79 = 1.025 or a 2.5% increase.
For the Elemental, you can only have it in 3 places, bracers, neck and quiver. So assuming both neck and bracers maxed 1.60/1.40 = 1.143. or a 14.3% increase. So add the elemental. Let's say there is only the bracers 1.40/1.20 = 1.167 or 16.7% increase, still add the elemental damage.
Why does this work? Well, we are calculating multipliers. And it doesn't matter as long as we compare multipliers. Assuming (a+b)*(c+d)=e, it doesn't matter where you put the multiplier. We'll double the values, so 2(a+b)*(c+d) = (a+b)*2(c+d) = 2e. I stated double so I used 2 here. Above, rather than stating "double", the number is calculated. The point of the math is calculate the multiplier, then you don't have to insane calculations.
I feel like I have to butt in, as many seem to be pulling answers and numbers out of their ass with no backing whatsoever and just base it on gut feeling or opinions, and sometimes this will lead to wrong answers as seen here. I will correct 1.
EMcLendon was right about 10% damage on weapon being better than upping your max disc from 9 to 12.
He presented some wrong directions regarding your quiver though, maybe he misunderstood what the different additive damage attributes are, and mixed it with the UE set bonus. 15% multishot damage will BY FAR increase your damage more, compared to adding another 2-3 discipline. Even if you got +30% multishot damage from head/boots already.
I will copy paste wudijo's answer to this dilemma, a consistent top of leaderboard dh and theorycrafter, as he is way better at wording things than I am.
Q: Should I roll +3 discipline or 10% damage on a weapon? How about +3 discipline vs. 15% Multishot on a quiver? Isn't it +45% damage?
A: In both cases you will NOT want to roll discipline to a higher value. The discipline damage bonus is additive with itself, i.e. if you already have 75 discipline (1125% damage bonus) and you make it 78 (1170%), you will only see a 4% damage increase. Same goes for Multishot damage, which is also additive with itself and other "Damage Increased By Skills"-type buffs (see calculation above), but you will have much less of that, so adding 15% will have a much bigger impact. 10% weapon damage is a flat 10% increase to all of your damage.
If you want any formulas to find out exactly by how much better x is to y, or the math behind this specific example, or you got any questions about minmaxing or whats best statwise etc, feel free to give me a message directly and I'll do my best to help.
Sorry guys something is still not quite clear to me after reading this thread.
There are two questions that were asked, the question that pertained to +disc vs %dam on a weapon seems pretty clear to me.
However the question of +disc vs +%multishot made me wonder if I have the wrong assumption about how Unhallowed works.
I thought 1 discipline = +15% multishot (and generators) meant that 1 point of discipline essentially equals a +15% multishot stat rolled onto your boots helm or quiver.
eg. if you had 2 disciplne and +15% multi on your boots then you have a grand total of +45% multishot bonus (assuming your discipline is at max) as they all add together.
After reading this, I am concerned I might have it wrong. are the explict + multi rolls added together and then treated as a seperate multiplier to the discpline multiplier?
ps. put another way, I thought the only difference between the multishot damage increase via discipline and the +multi damage on gear is that one is permanent, and the other is dynamic based on the current amount of discipline you have (or have spent) and that they were all added together to arrive at a final multiplier value. Thus I have not put great priority on +multi, eg on my helm I've stuck with the very high Vitality you can get (nearly 1k).
Thanks Drez, that was the answer I was looking for. I assumed the +multi on gear would simply be additive to the +multi you get from discipline, so was not prioritising it over defensive stats. I see now this was a mistake and will keep farming for a helm I can roll to dex/socket/crit/multi and a deadmans I can get multi on (without loosing rcr on it, which I also absolutely need).
Yes Quidam67 you got it now, Drez explained it well
+disc bonus from UE set is indeed not additive with + skill damage on boots/helm/quiver, UE set +disc bonus is only additive with itself. So since they are seperate multipliers, they both matter a lot and can be easily measured against eachother. So obviously you don't want to be missing out on any + skill damage slots (helm, boots, quiver)!
If you come to the dilemma and have to choose between skill damage or + disc on a quiver, or want to compare getting more disc on weapon or getting another stat on it; you can this this spreadsheet to find out how much extra damage x amount of more discipline would provide.
It is actually good news to discover I have a genuine opportunity to increase my firepower as my current solo cap is GR55 but with some more tweaks I am confident I can be GR56 viable. good times.
If you were clearing 55 with MS build or UE build in general, while missing any + skill damage rolls, or if I understand correctly, MS on both helm and quiver, then you can do 56 by a large margin when you get those rolls
If you only had +15% MS roll on your boots, and not on helm or quiver, you'd be going from 115% multishot damage, to a whooping 145%. Thats a flat out ~26% damage increase my friend!
You'll be owning 56 in no time! Good luck
If you were clearing 55 with MS build or UE build in general, while missing any + skill damage rolls, or if I understand correctly, MS on both helm and quiver, then you can do 56 by a large margin when you get those rolls
If you only had +15% MS roll on your boots, and not on helm or quiver, you'd be going from 115% multishot damage, to a whooping 145%. Thats a flat out ~26% damage increase my friend!
You'll be owning 56 in no time! Good luck
Yes, I can clear 55 and I did it with only +14 on my boots. This has me in 2nd place on the unofficial Diablo 3 solo leader boards legit players (console). As per video, I do a complete gear check at the end (a requirement of getting on the leaderboards) and you will see only my boots have +ms on them. Since this clear I am now running a better rolled Odysseys End and Steady strikers, and I'm trying to farm a helm with cc and +ms, and I am going to roll off rcr from my quiver to +ms, and farm gloves with rcr, then I should be the ultimate glass cannon
ps. and dropped Iceblink for BotP since I'm running Entangling Shot|Justice is Served rather than Evasive Fire|Focus
pps. here is the guy in 1st place. only 2k vit and not a single all resist. I can't see myself beating this run anytime soon, I'm just going to try and chase a GR56.
Hi everybody,
I was looking for some answers about my questions, but I just found pieces of information on other threads. I'll explain them with 2 examples, in both cases i'm using 6p UE with a Multishot Build.
Example 1:
Let's assume I have a weapon rolled with +9 max Discipline/Dex/Socket/LoH (around 2800 dps). What should I do with it? Trying to get +12 max Discipline? or maybe get +X% Dmg to rise up to 3000 weapon dps. Since MS damage is based on my dps and also my maximum discipline, I can't tell which is better.
Example 2:
Now let's say I have a deadman legacy with +10 max Discipline/Dex/Vit/CHC/IAS/Sentry Dmg. Same question, is it better to look for MS damage instead of Sentry (which is useless btw) or to have +12 max Discipline (and keep useless sentry dmg)? More Generally, is +XX% MS Dmg better than a max roll on displine on a quiver?
Thanks for your time.
1) 3 more discipline is a potential 45% more damage for your spenders and Multishot, so my gut reaction is that bumping it to 12 discipline is worth way more than than rolling a potential 10% damage.
2) I don't know what values a quiver can roll max discipline between, but since the most MS damage you can get is 15%, and that's equal to 1 more discipline... I'd say the discipline reroll is once again the way to go?
I'd be interested in other opinions, especially if I'm horribly wrong in what I'm saying, but it seems like both cases you'd want more discipline for more damage.
Watch this video and it will explain the math about "relative" damage increases.
Diablo 3: How to maximize your damage by Quin C[/header]
They won't let me put the actual video link, but this is the title. Should be easy enough to google search. The spreadsheet is in the video description seciton.
Basically the answer to your question depends on your other + damage stats.
If you are very low in the additive damage multipliers then % multishot will be better almost always
If you have some in the additive multipliers, like I would guess around 40%, then discipline will be better.
Plus discipline will "almost always" be better up until you hit some threshold or you have 0% in the additive column.
If you don;t know for sure you can download that spreadsheet and put the discipline multipliers into one of the special columns. So 15% * 10 disciline would be 150% in one of the extra fields. Then you can mod based on your actual numbers.
Why guess when you can do the math.
to respond specifically to your examples:
example 1: get plus damage. 10% on the weapon is a separate multiplier which multiplies against the total disc bonus. You can't really do better on a weapon than 10% damage.
example 2: multishot is "probably" better than +3 discipline assuming you lack multishot damage on other gear pieces. However, there is another stat you could consider. You can't get resource cost reduction on your quiver but you could consider getting hatred regen. I think it maxes at 1.5. This "might" be superior, but again it really depends. Ideally you get to have hatred regen and multishot damage and max discipline and lose the vitality and attack speed. But that isn't an option for you right now.
I would like a shot at answering this question.
In the end, you are going to want maximum discipline where you can get maximum discipline. No matter what you have elsewhere, this entire build revolves around discipline. If you have to choose between discipline and % damage, choose discipline. If you have to choose between a "few discipline" and % damage, choose % damage. If you have to choose between 7 discipline and % damage, choose the increase to discipline while farming for another weapon of your choice with a % damage modifier but never take away the complete amount of discipline for % damage.
I would suggest that if you are more than 4 discipline away from the max discipline roll then always roll higher discipline. 5 discipline, as an example is 75% increased damage to your Multishot. 4 at 60% could probably be matched by 10% increased damage. At least that's what superfast in the head math tells me.
In your examples:
1) % damage without question.
2) This one is easy in my head but difficult to explain (sort of)... if you can roll through the rift while keeping max discipline the entire time then rolling the 3 discipline is FAR superior than 15% multishot damage. Heck, to be frank I can't ever think of a situation where 15% Multishot damage will ever be better than those +3 (45%) discipline. The reason is because with that 6pc bonus the 15% Multishot damage is 100% always affected by your discipline in the first place. You literally would need to be shooting your Multishot at 2 discipline in order for 15% Multishot to equal the damage increase as the 3 discpline simply because the Multishot bonus is affected by the 6pc.
You need to look at formulas in a much simpler way. All categories are multiplied together to give a final damage value. Within the categories they are added. Your goal is increase the final damage value. So if you just compare the increase in the category to the other you will get your answer. I state this because while there is a lot of information presented by the OP, it is insufficient to answer the question.
I'm going to have to use some values to make an example. So 81 is the max you can get with Discipline (assuming F/R). So at +9 to +12 on the bow the increase is 81/78=1.038 or 3.8% overall increase.
For the actual Damage on the Weapon, I'm guessing that is the Max 10%. This is a straight up multiplier to damage. So 10% is better than 2.5%. This one is easy. Go Damage. But what you should realize is that increasing a stat will be significantly less than introducing a new multiplier. In this case it's about 3 times a much.
In the case of the quiver, we are at +10 to +12, so using 81 again as our max. The increase is 81/79 = 1.025 or a 2.5% increase.
For the Elemental, you can only have it in 3 places, bracers, neck and quiver. So assuming both neck and bracers maxed 1.60/1.40 = 1.143. or a 14.3% increase. So add the elemental. Let's say there is only the bracers 1.40/1.20 = 1.167 or 16.7% increase, still add the elemental damage.
Why does this work? Well, we are calculating multipliers. And it doesn't matter as long as we compare multipliers. Assuming (a+b)*(c+d)=e, it doesn't matter where you put the multiplier. We'll double the values, so 2(a+b)*(c+d) = (a+b)*2(c+d) = 2e. I stated double so I used 2 here. Above, rather than stating "double", the number is calculated. The point of the math is calculate the multiplier, then you don't have to insane calculations.
Hey!
I feel like I have to butt in, as many seem to be pulling answers and numbers out of their ass with no backing whatsoever and just base it on gut feeling or opinions, and sometimes this will lead to wrong answers as seen here. I will correct 1.
EMcLendon was right about 10% damage on weapon being better than upping your max disc from 9 to 12.
He presented some wrong directions regarding your quiver though, maybe he misunderstood what the different additive damage attributes are, and mixed it with the UE set bonus. 15% multishot damage will BY FAR increase your damage more, compared to adding another 2-3 discipline. Even if you got +30% multishot damage from head/boots already.
I will copy paste wudijo's answer to this dilemma, a consistent top of leaderboard dh and theorycrafter, as he is way better at wording things than I am.
Q: Should I roll +3 discipline or 10% damage on a weapon? How about +3 discipline vs. 15% Multishot on a quiver? Isn't it +45% damage?
A: In both cases you will NOT want to roll discipline to a higher value. The discipline damage bonus is additive with itself, i.e. if you already have 75 discipline (1125% damage bonus) and you make it 78 (1170%), you will only see a 4% damage increase. Same goes for Multishot damage, which is also additive with itself and other "Damage Increased By Skills"-type buffs (see calculation above), but you will have much less of that, so adding 15% will have a much bigger impact. 10% weapon damage is a flat 10% increase to all of your damage.
If you want any formulas to find out exactly by how much better x is to y, or the math behind this specific example, or you got any questions about minmaxing or whats best statwise etc, feel free to give me a message directly and I'll do my best to help.
~Zeuz
Roll damage% on weapon and Multishot% on quiver /thread
Season 7 Hardcore Demon Huntard #14 @ GR78
Unhallowed Essence Multishot Guide
Sorry guys something is still not quite clear to me after reading this thread.
There are two questions that were asked, the question that pertained to +disc vs %dam on a weapon seems pretty clear to me.
However the question of +disc vs +%multishot made me wonder if I have the wrong assumption about how Unhallowed works.
I thought 1 discipline = +15% multishot (and generators) meant that 1 point of discipline essentially equals a +15% multishot stat rolled onto your boots helm or quiver.
eg. if you had 2 disciplne and +15% multi on your boots then you have a grand total of +45% multishot bonus (assuming your discipline is at max) as they all add together.
After reading this, I am concerned I might have it wrong. are the explict + multi rolls added together and then treated as a seperate multiplier to the discpline multiplier?
ps. put another way, I thought the only difference between the multishot damage increase via discipline and the +multi damage on gear is that one is permanent, and the other is dynamic based on the current amount of discipline you have (or have spent) and that they were all added together to arrive at a final multiplier value. Thus I have not put great priority on +multi, eg on my helm I've stuck with the very high Vitality you can get (nearly 1k).
30% on a 1200% bonus isnt much. Like others have said, each additional pt in disc isnt muliplicitive its additive.
ok thanks, so in other words it works like I thought it did.. (um assuming you are also referring to the +multi on items)
Thanks Drez, that was the answer I was looking for. I assumed the +multi on gear would simply be additive to the +multi you get from discipline, so was not prioritising it over defensive stats. I see now this was a mistake and will keep farming for a helm I can roll to dex/socket/crit/multi and a deadmans I can get multi on (without loosing rcr on it, which I also absolutely need).
Yes Quidam67 you got it now, Drez explained it well
+disc bonus from UE set is indeed not additive with + skill damage on boots/helm/quiver, UE set +disc bonus is only additive with itself. So since they are seperate multipliers, they both matter a lot and can be easily measured against eachother. So obviously you don't want to be missing out on any + skill damage slots (helm, boots, quiver)!
If you come to the dilemma and have to choose between skill damage or + disc on a quiver, or want to compare getting more disc on weapon or getting another stat on it; you can this this spreadsheet to find out how much extra damage x amount of more discipline would provide.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q9_QoCepAT9Duct4P6rWH4FfQxuLQgkap9Xvixje5uw/edit#gid=0 (go to file-- make copy, to be able to put in your own info)
~Zeuz
It is actually good news to discover I have a genuine opportunity to increase my firepower as my current solo cap is GR55 but with some more tweaks I am confident I can be GR56 viable. good times.
Quidam67
If you were clearing 55 with MS build or UE build in general, while missing any + skill damage rolls, or if I understand correctly, MS on both helm and quiver, then you can do 56 by a large margin when you get those rolls
If you only had +15% MS roll on your boots, and not on helm or quiver, you'd be going from 115% multishot damage, to a whooping 145%. Thats a flat out ~26% damage increase my friend!
You'll be owning 56 in no time! Good luck
Yes, I can clear 55 and I did it with only +14 on my boots. This has me in 2nd place on the unofficial Diablo 3 solo leader boards legit players (console). As per video, I do a complete gear check at the end (a requirement of getting on the leaderboards) and you will see only my boots have +ms on them. Since this clear I am now running a better rolled Odysseys End and Steady strikers, and I'm trying to farm a helm with cc and +ms, and I am going to roll off rcr from my quiver to +ms, and farm gloves with rcr, then I should be the ultimate glass cannon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckHyIuocCFU
ps. and dropped Iceblink for BotP since I'm running Entangling Shot|Justice is Served rather than Evasive Fire|Focus
pps. here is the guy in 1st place. only 2k vit and not a single all resist. I can't see myself beating this run anytime soon, I'm just going to try and chase a GR56.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk6CFZKbinw&feature=youtu.be
Well done Nephalem
The glass cannon dream is real